1- Actually, that line was taken directly from the interview with Sakurai when he was discussing Robin and Lucina. YOU are the one who has massively misinterpreted it to mean "Sakurai didn't think Chrom was as unique as Robin". That isn't what Sakurai said, at all. Sakurai said, and I will quote again:
That's stating Sakurai's opinion on Chrom's playability extremely clearly, in my mind.
2- Wait a second. Weren't YOU the one saying "Series/Game representation doesn't matter? A single game can get any number of reps"? Because, if that's true, there is no possible way that Robin could have taken Chrom's spot. If Chrom had a decent chance, he would be judged on his own merits, not in comparison.
So which is it? Does the number of representatives a game has matters, in which case Chrom is unlikely to get in as Awakening's third rep, or did Sakurai just judge that Chrom didn't have the potential to be a playable character, in which case nothing has changed? You can't have it both ways.
3- So, what you're saying is that you DON'T want Chrom in the game. You just want someone who looks like Chrom, but doesn't fight like him at all, use any recognizable moves or specials, and is basically a hollow mockery of Chrom as a character. Just as long as Chrom's name is in the game.
4- The requests to have non Mario characters in Mario Kart has been by far the largest request, by far, that has come from the Mario Kart fanbase over the past decade. Link and Villager are the highlights of those DLC packs, and the extra Mario reps are just added bonuses. No one is buying the DLC to get Tanooki Mario, they're buying it to get Link.
If you really want Smash Bros. DLC to work this way, then you're basically saying that you want to buy Chrom as a clone alongside some other hyped newcomer. If that's what you really want, more power to you, I guess. I'd actually like him to be a unique fighter.
For pre-release, clone characters get in because they are easier to implement and can get in-game without taking up too much development time before the deadlines. For post-release, they don't make sense, because instead of being added bonuses, they are now the primary content that people are going to be paying for, and you want to deliver something unique and interesting, or people won't shell out money for them.
5- Not really. I hear this argument a lot, but if you look on most of the AT-disconfirmed characters, there are a lot of comments about just how good the models look. Chrom's isn't really much better than the others.
Besides that, though, there is the move set still. If we get DLC for Smash Bros., I'm not expecting Nintendo to rush out and army of clones. We'll get unique and different characters who are going to be worth the money spent. Not Pichu, Roy, and Clone Chrom.
6- He'd consider Chrom because he was cheap? Wow, that's the lowest opinion of the Smash Bros. developers I've heard in a long time.
7- Again, cheapness works AGAINST Chrom. People don't want to buy cheap products. The reason the Mario Kart 8 DLC has been so well received is because it's not cheap. It's a ton of content, including brand new models and textures for racers, not just rehashed assets.
8- Or refuse Chrom for any number of other reasons. His popularity among fans has plummeted since the Robin reveal. Most Fire Emblem fans are a lot happier with Robin than Chrom, as fans were growing frustrated over "blue-haired lord" syndrome being the only representation this fantastic series received. Smash fans only really wanted him because he fit the profile of other characters who had made it in, so he was expected (with the Gematsu leak serving to reinforce his placement even further). Once they saw Robin, most of them agreed that he was a better choice as well and they've largely forgotten Chrom. So Chrom doesn't have nearly the fan support needed to make him DLC anymore.
9- I'm not so blinded by my love for Chrom that I'm giving him potential he doesn't have, that's all.
10- Which would give him a possible way in, and even make him a pretty likely chance.
i separated your post and mine with numbers for ease of reading. and everyhting else really.
1- I re-read this part of our conversation and we both have gotten sidetracked. What you were saying at first is that there wasn't an moveset that would make Chrom feel like Chrom; which i answered with "you aren't Sakurai, how would you know that"; and you gave me the bit of the interview that says nothing about what i inquired. Sakurai, at no point said something to the effect of "i couldn't find something that truly felt like Chrom". Which even if he did, it's a simple matter of playstyle; it's the biggest factor in determining "feel". Sure specials (like Inhale) and some normals (Mega Buster) aid in those "feelings" but generally it's the character's own physics. Bowser wouldn't really feel like Bowser if his movement/attack speed matched Fox's. that'd be pretty awesome though. But "feeling" is subjective, in the end. See how some people (Like me) feel like Rosalina's Luma gimmick is completely out-of-character for her, and how others say it's fitting. it's subjective.
Regardless, I do stand on my interpretation of sakurai's comment. If he thought Chrom was unique, he would've added him; or at least he wouldn't have said what he did. It just saddens me, because seeing how he referred to Chrom and Robin both, IMO, it's pretty clear he never truly considered him over Robin, as in, it wasn't a hard decision. Would you really have a hard time in not including Chrom if he offered nothing IYO? i don't think you would. which is why the DLC is this movement goal; without Robin to "fight" against Chrom, there is nothing impeding Sakurai from thinking stuff for him, and there are a lot of corners to be cut when making Chrom, 100% unique or otherwise.
2- I am pretty sure i wasn't active in that part of that discussion. i do believe in "repping", i am just not sure if clones really count in Sakurai's mind due to how he referred to Lucina at a few points. It's just a matter of Sakurai believing in "reppin" or not, and we really don't have enough to go on at this point because this issue isn't present for any other character; besides Mewtwo (too many gen1 pokes is something i've heard sometimes.)
3- No, what i'm saying is that you are limiting yourself too much to the boundary of FE instead of expanding your horizons. Chrom can use stuff he used in awakening, he can move in ways that make you feel like "yes, that's how chrom would move!" (don't say that aloud though) and bring new things to the table, give a new spin to old stuff (AIE how his aether would work), and/or revive an old and unused playstyle).
I'm ultimately questioning your "archetype" argument; because i don't see why it matters. You say Ike is a merc, Marth's a myrmidon, and that there is no other way out for Chrom; because he needs to belong in some FE archetype even though this is not Fire Emblem. Does Roy belong in any archetype?
he actually does, and it's Berserker...a fiery Berserker
I also disagree with Marth being a "myrmidon". He is balanced, not super-speed oriented with potential for awesome damage. If you give Sheik a sword, THAT would be something more like a myrmidon ('d say meta knight, but he flies...). i don't feel like that archetype would be properly represented by anyone but Lyn herself. Marth is a pure "Lord" archetype, if anything.
I do want something that feels like Chrom. I'm sure you might remember me going against suggestions of Chrom switching to a Lance to the extent Robin switches his swords; because that wasn't chrom-like
and it would forever deconfirm Pig Ganon.
4- you aren't getting my point here. kinda. I'm saying one kind of logic is used when deciding to include characters in the pre-release period, and another kind is used for the post-Release period.
i'm also saying you are using pre-release logic for a post-release problem. Robin's moveset surely wasn't an easy one to program (even if it kinda made itself for Sakurai), what with the Tomes/Levin Sword running out, Nosferatu having back slash properties, and the all new Aerial smash attack. If this was the other way around, Sakurai would most likely NOT go through the same logic when considering Robin's moveset. He might have gone further than what he gave us now to make people more interested; just as he might have given us a simpler robin with unbreakable weapons in order to not waste too much time. There are different circumstances, so there are lower chances of him approaching the character in the same way as before; again, like how Villager worked.
5- I, personally, disagree. Most people seem to disagree to an extent as well, as one thing i've heard a lot is that chrom's model was very well made for someone who isn't playable; and what is the comparison for that? Assist Trophies. That's not to say that the ATs mostly don't look good, they do. Also, Chrom or not, the "promoted to playable" character would need a few slight texture and model upgrades, yes. Dark Samus for example has a really flat power suit, which would need some fixing. The main argument here, is that Chrom looks the best out of the other characters, and he'd need the least graphical upgrades out of the others if they go with him.
Riki's design does look very good, too like Chrom's does, because he is primarily a final smash. thinking about it, it would be funny if someone summoned Riki to fight against shulk right before he used his FS on them... anyways, he is not in a position for that promotion to happen like Chrom is.
I said before that Linkrom was surprisingly viable; but that's not what we want; and i never promoted that idea seriously (it was done just for argumentation purposes). And yes, a great point, there is also moveset... we aren't talking about that on this part though. You seem under the impression i want a Chlome; probably because of me bringing up MK8 DLC. That was just to highlight how devs do try to go for things that cost less money at some points; of course, the extent of what they'd do is another thing.
Chrom doesn't really work as a clone though, thanks to Lucina he'd have to be unique. People wouldn't react well to 5 Fe reps, 2 being clones and 4 being too simplistic. And unless he came in a pack, as said before he wouldn't be purchased due to his own merits.
6- He'd start considering Chrom for that, yes. Re-considering, actually; as well already covered the part where Sakurai recognizes Chrom has the popularity, importance and relevance to be playable in Smash Bros. He was just outclassed in uniqueness when fighting over a specific slot.
It's not a "low' opinion, it's a realistic one. If you were in Sakurai's shoes, AFTER considering cut vets for DLC (which more work or not, would probably be the top priority)... wouldn't you first try to look at what the default game already has? to see, if there aren't things that can't be used in order to bring the contest in a faster and cheaper fashion? Sure, this kind of logic can, indeed, bring us to Chlome... but Lucina kinda would force Sakurai to find something unique for him.
Sakurai ultimately belongs to a capitalist company. Making more with less is something they consider; and it just so happens that to a good level of that, Chrom would be "pleasant' to their interests. Sakurai knows that us, Chrom fans, exist in a decent size since as he noted, " “What? Not Chrom!?” I suspect a lot of you will ask. ". In other words, quite a few expected Chrom, and thus, he knew there ought to be quite a few people looking forward to play as him. Seems like a win-win situation.
As i said, in terms of being deserving, and important, only Dark samus and Ghirahim fit the bill (though they can go for Retro DLC). Out of all ATs (so far), Ghirahim, Waluigi and Tingle were the only ones with enough popularity to ever be considered (this is kinda important for DLc if characters aren't stuck into packs), and it seems the latter two aren't going to make that jump to playable anytime soon.
And i was talking strictly about characters for the MK8 DLC comparison. For all we know we would get new stages, items or game modes together with the characters.
7- Depends. Cheapness of moveset can surely work against Chrom; besides reusing a slash, two at most, from his actions in Robin's FS. that's the only cheapness that would work against Chrom, and is the one cheapness we are NOT arguing for, or even about. in terms of cheapness, this is what we are arguing:
a) Chrom's model is already there, with a full skeleton (and cape physics), and he would need fewer adjustments in modeling and texturing than other character in a similar position; and as we know, Modeling is very expensive and cutting this corner is huge.
b) Chrom's trailer is easier to make, due to the plot being an easy sequel to Book, blade and Crest
c) Chrom's trailer is easy to make due to reusing assets from Awakening itself
d) Making up for Chrom being a final smash can be handwaved by playable!Chrom being from a different timeline, which can even be extended to making Robin his final smash
e) Morgan could take Chrom's place as a FS. Both would need just a new head model and a slight resize of Robin's body. Morgan as a FS isn't too voice-intensive and the voice clips can be taken directly from awakening. The only thing, is that they'd need a need a new ending animation (chrom probably has the ground stab thing)... assuming they don't just disappear after the finishing blow.
f) Some of Chrom's lines can be reused from Awakening or his role of FS. Sure, he'd need more voices too; but it's another corner slightly cut.
g) Chrom can potentially re-use an asset or two from some characters; even if he has another unique gimmick he is bound to share some stuff at a base level (like Aether)
(and while not part of that specific argument, it's always worth remembering that Chrom is popular, relevant and important as of now. That, and the far less intensive design period of DLC, together with Robin getting out of the way, allows Sakurai to calmly and fairly analyse Chrom to see that he can be good in smash, indeed.)
8- if Sakurai believes in repping even for DLC, and really considers Lucina as a 4th, legitimate rep; or if he is simply satisfied with bringing back cuts and that's it... yeah; things just got troublesome for Chrom; but our movement exists for a reason. Sure, he could even have another reason; but we don't know that to even argue about it.
But you are again thinking with the pre-release mindset. We already got our "unique" representative, Chrom's popularity changing cannot be argued about as we don't have proof. And you are only speaking for a minority of fans that have made themselves known in forums and such.
Remember: besides the people that follow smash bros news closely, most people simply don't care about that much uniqueness. They will look at Chrom and say "oh, he is that cool dude from Robin's Fs". They aren't looking for "new experiences' as much as they are looking for "fun". If Chrom looks fun, and cool to boot, they will get him. That's where a simpler playstyle works well for Chrom. Though it seems Sakurai doesn't get that yet; maybe Little Mac's inevitable popularity over the more unique guys will show him that.
And you are right, people liked Robin. you know why? Because they saw him being playable. If Sakurai wanted to, Chrom could be more unique than Shulk without any big strecthes; and look at the reception he got? If Sakurai wanted to, he could just focus on making Chrom's playstyle awesome with a simple moveset focusing on slashes, similarly to Little Mac; look at the reception he got.
As long as he wasn't a clone, i am 100% sure people would like Chrom. Sure, there would always be people complaining, there are those for every character and that's inevitable. But ti would please people following the news, and please people who just care about playing the game. Heck, Look at shulk again: 'i'm really feeling it" was all he really needed to be popular with the community.
You are also right Chrom doesn't have much support as of now. And yet, our movement isn't made just to convince Sakurai and sakurai alone that Chrom would be awesome.
9- And what potential Chrom doesn't have? using non-Falchion weapons more than the Falchion is so far the only wrong thing that pops up consistently for Chrom that i'd agree with you. Besides that, everything else fits Chrom somehow; even in the case of the gemstones, where it's more of a reference to Marth's games than himself (it's only logical he could think of using the gems, if he is already using the shield)
Using offensive Skills? Valid. Using support skills? Valid. Using defensive skills? Valid. Using throwing weapons as a special move? Valid. Bringing non-falchion swords as Side-grades? Valid. Picking a god and praying for power? Valid. Using an item or naga's blessing for health? Valid. Using a bow for a special move? Valid. Using a shield for defense? Valid. Using the gemstones within the shield for buffs? Worth a shot imo. Resuscitating Roy's playstyle with some upgrades/changes? Valid. Temporary promotion to great lord for Final smash? Valid. Summoning robin as a final smash? Hilarious and valid. Summoning a friend to help him in battle? Valid, depending on what friend and their job...
that's plenty of stuff, mentioned after i got in here. there is undoubtedly even more in the 80+ pages before my arrival.
10- Yes, but my fear is that it would come too late. We haven't heard much about the game, it will probably take a while before it gets released everywhere... and Chrom might not even have a big role there. The good thing though, is that knowing how SMT works, Chrom would undoubtedly have access to some buffing moves which could work well here. bonus points if they use FE skills and let people learn non-canon skills... and SMT exclusive stuff too.
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Opossum
Sorry for getting a little upset. Kinda discounting IRL rage from personal problems here at times... that has nothing to do with you guys though; so, again, Sorry.
).
), give him a more aerial focus and the best jumps of the FE cast. That fits his character, and covers some bases not covered by Marth, Ike, Lucina, and Robin.
