any troubling matchups so far?

unwelc0med

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
419
As a Pichu secondary, your strategy should be:
-Outspace Pichu
-Don't get caught in laggy moves
-Avoid offstage battle as much as possible. Pichu can gimp, but will have to get you to 250+ to get an honest kill.

Armor also stuffs a lot of 'Chu's approaches. Balance armor moves with quick moves, since if you get caught in lag that's a free opening for Pichu. And lastly, this goes for any quick character match up; don't forget to move. I always catch myself standing still and waiting for the enemy to approach, but if you move you become harder to hit and make more openings for yourself.
very helpful, thanks!
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
New batch of troubling match-ups:
Luigi: Insanely easy to get a single combo that results in kill %, then one read leads to up-b or f-smash. K Rool cannot afford to be touched.

Belmonts: How do you approach? How do you get off ledge? These guys feel impossible to fight. This is probably a 20/80 match-up.

Ness: Pk Fire, Pk Thunder, and Fair make K Rool combo chow. It's a do-able match up, but definitely an uphill battle. DI'ing up and away from PK fire seems to be the best option, maybe mix up with a down and away. Nair also has a chance to beat Pk Thunder. The only saving grace is Ness's B-throw doesn't kill until insanely high %.

Snake: Very difficult to get in without being blown up. Once you do manage to get in, Snake's frame data stomps K Rool. Also, C4 has a large blast radius, mixed with K Rool's large hurtbox, makes it difficult to manuever. C4 on platform hits a running K Rool underneath.

Pit: Pit's combo game, air game, and reach make this a hard match up. Just accept the 80 percent you'll take off of one combo and try to make a comeback. Watch out for retreating F-smash / side-b. And don't be baited by Pit's multiple jumps. I'd guess probably a 60/40 in Pit's favor.

Roy: Speed + range + power. Roy stomps K Rool, no questions. Your only hope is to get your stray hits, and gimp recovery, even then it won't be easy. Projectiles kinda work, but Roy can outspeed them.

Marth / Lucina: good luck beating that range, lol
 

Empty Number

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
314
Location
Minnesota
I play a lot of Simon as well, and I wince a bit when I see King K Rool on the screen as my opponent. King K Rool actually has a decent match up against Simon for two reasons:

1) Super armor makes it easier to get in the range that makes Simon uncomfortable. Super amor nair makes gimping Simon easier as well.

2) Crown beats cross. Full stop. They don’t just clank, but crown will keep traveling onward to Simon. This does NOT happen to Simon’s projectiles in many other matchups, and it’s an aspect of the matchup that allows the K Rool player to approach or follow up if Simon gets tagged.

As a general tip, Simon has a tough time addressing approaches coming from the upper diagonal direction. He either must commit to a fair (which you can superarmor with nair), ftilt which is punishable on shield, or backup in which case you can chase or toss crown. Axe is rarely an option for him when you get that close because of the large time commitment.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
I play a lot of Simon as well, and I wince a bit when I see King K Rool on the screen as my opponent. King K Rool actually has a decent match up against Simon for two reasons:

1) Super armor makes it easier to get in the range that makes Simon uncomfortable. Super amor nair makes gimping Simon easier as well.

2) Crown beats cross. Full stop. They don’t just clank, but crown will keep traveling onward to Simon. This does NOT happen to Simon’s projectiles in many other matchups, and it’s an aspect of the matchup that allows the K Rool player to approach or follow up if Simon gets tagged.

As a general tip, Simon has a tough time addressing approaches coming from the upper diagonal direction. He either must commit to a fair (which you can superarmor with nair), ftilt which is punishable on shield, or backup in which case you can chase or toss crown. Axe is rarely an option for him when you get that close because of the large time commitment.
How do you deal with Holy Water? Just be patient then approach?

And also, what moves besides Nair have super armor and can close the gap? I was thinking approaching Dair, but I'd probably need to test it.
 

Empty Number

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
314
Location
Minnesota
How do you deal with Holy Water? Just be patient then approach?

And also, what moves besides Nair have super armor and can close the gap? I was thinking approaching Dair, but I'd probably need to test it.
Holy water can be tough, but like axe it’s a high-commitment move, one that actually works out poorly for Simon if it happens to hit shield. If you toss crown through it you can usually tag Simon. Just be careful when you’re standing on the other side of holy water. Simon can still fsmash and I’ve caught more than a few people releasing shield because they reasoned that because they were safe from holy water, they were safe in general.

I like nair into ftilt or jab as fast options that beat Simon’s grab range. Get in his zone enough times and beat him up a bit with jab and ftilt, and hopefully you’ll start to see him shield more. Grab him and toss him off stage, maybe gimp, if he gets back on stage huck some crowns or cannonballs around before he gets his comfort space again. Simon’s air mobility is hot garbage so projectiles are difficult for him to play around if he’s not already in control.

Remember Simon’s character design is that he has no neutral state. In a 1v1 against Simon he is either in advantage, or disadvantage. If you hang back habitually you’re giving him advantage, not neutral.
 

G-Guy

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
807
NNID
G-Guy1990
K Rool‘s entire design makes him a big damage sponge, however his output is Not bad weither.
Offen in tournament matches you See him take around 100 before he Even does some serious damage.
I feel that it’s easy to Jump to a conclusion early just behause you won‘t land early kills.
Of anything, playing K Rool teaches Patience.
Facing the Kroc has an intimidating Effekt on the opponent too.

He‘s a highly psychological character, pretty much like Ganon. However I feel his Kit gives him plenty of answers to situations that a character like Ganon cannot handle
 

Ginsai

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
115
Location
California, United States.
Switch FC
SW-8248-1982-9689
As Snake i find K Rool pretty easy to deal with as he is so huge i can zone him easy.
Rools heavy armor and Crown snuffs a lot of Snakes Zoning, he has a unique advantage over snake. He’s literally one of if not the only heavy the can give snake trouble
 

Ginsai

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
115
Location
California, United States.
Switch FC
SW-8248-1982-9689
New batch of troubling match-ups:
Luigi: Insanely easy to get a single combo that results in kill %, then one read leads to up-b or f-smash. K Rool cannot afford to be touched.

Belmonts: How do you approach? How do you get off ledge? These guys feel impossible to fight. This is probably a 20/80 match-up.

Ness: Pk Fire, Pk Thunder, and Fair make K Rool combo chow. It's a do-able match up, but definitely an uphill battle. DI'ing up and away from PK fire seems to be the best option, maybe mix up with a down and away. Nair also has a chance to beat Pk Thunder. The only saving grace is Ness's B-throw doesn't kill until insanely high %.

Snake: Very difficult to get in without being blown up. Once you do manage to get in, Snake's frame data stomps K Rool. Also, C4 has a large blast radius, mixed with K Rool's large hurtbox, makes it difficult to manuever. C4 on platform hits a running K Rool underneath.

Pit: Pit's combo game, air game, and reach make this a hard match up. Just accept the 80 percent you'll take off of one combo and try to make a comeback. Watch out for retreating F-smash / side-b. And don't be baited by Pit's multiple jumps. I'd guess probably a 60/40 in Pit's favor.

Roy: Speed + range + power. Roy stomps K Rool, no questions. Your only hope is to get your stray hits, and gimp recovery, even then it won't be easy. Projectiles kinda work, but Roy can outspeed them.

Marth / Lucina: good luck beating that range, lol
Oh thank you for this I was testing Rools super armor and Crown properties against Snakes explosives. Rool can handle most of snakes kit with his armor. It’s nifty to have a crown that Detonates grenades on contact and keep its momentum while providing Rool with armor on start up. Rools Nair armors through up smash, C4, and Nikkita. His crown can also hit any grenade in snakes shield bubble and cause damage while still keeping its affect or boomerang affect.
 

Darkscyther

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Messages
48
I had some troubles against a Ness. I just won once over a set of 7-10 matches. I didn't know his forward smash was able to reflect projectiles. He wasn't strong and was using sub-optimal moves (neutral b), but he was damn fast and I couldn't really do anything. I was basically combo food the whole time, he could connect a lot of moves and get me off stage in no time. When I timed the tech wrong he would always stage spike me, and he was juggling with me using up-b off stage. His side b was very annoying and while I could smash-DI out of it sometimes, it always connected into a grab or an aerial. Overall it was a nightmare, but I learned a few things:

- avoiding being too repetitive on spamming because they can reflect it back at you
- just accept being combo food at low % so don't try to stick a nair here and there because that won't work
- online sucks so it was difficult to place correctly-timed nairs but I felt that was a good way to approach somehow

Any other advice against Ness in general is much appreciated. I know ti hasn't changed much from Smash4 but I never played it (I come from melee) so I was pretty much surprised to see how they improved his kit and it really felt like toxic playing against him.
 

~The Koopa King~

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
872
Location
Alvarado, TX
Switch FC
3169-5182-0524
K Rool‘s entire design makes him a big damage sponge, however his output is Not bad weither.
Offen in tournament matches you See him take around 100 before he Even does some serious damage.
I feel that it’s easy to Jump to a conclusion early just behause you won‘t land early kills.
Of anything, playing K Rool teaches Patience.
Facing the Kroc has an intimidating Effekt on the opponent too.

He‘s a highly psychological character, pretty much like Ganon. However I feel his Kit gives him plenty of answers to situations that a character like Ganon cannot handle
speaking of Ganon he can just smash through your belly armor instantly if you aren't too careful

same goes with captain falcon(had a match where twice during it he shattered my armor and i fell to my doom cause of it)
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
How to deal with :ultlittlemac: ?
And I don't mean For Glory, side-b off the side Little Mac, I mean Little Mac mains who foxtrot just outside your range, and aim to break belly. I felt pretty useless against one Mac I played in tournament. Plz help.
 
Last edited:

Darkscyther

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Messages
48
How to deal with :ultlittlemac: ?
And I don't mean For Glory, side-b off the side Little Mac, I mean Little Mac mains who foxtrot just outside your range, and aim to break belly. I felt pretty useless against one Mac I played in tournament. Plz help.
I do not have experience with *good* Macs, but remember you have projectiles, a shield, a counter, and grabs. If you are having trouble you just have to stick to your mind that once Mac is airborne you need to rack as much damage as possible, and whenever he is offstage you *have to* kill.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
Advise on K Rool dittos? Lost a spot in top 3 at a local to a K Rool ditto, and just wondering how I could improve next time.

From what I picked up:
-Nair goes through up-b propeller
-F-tilt covers most options
-Blundersucc is only useful in edgeguard situations (even then, they probably know how to counter it)
-K Rool is tall enough to be hit by suck-up-cannonball-diagonal-forward, even if you are relatively far away
-Counter beats crown, and can occasionally be used against cannonball, but they might catch on
-Dair CAN spike through up-b, but its such a strict window, that it isn't a good option
-Ledge guard is the hardest, but most beneficial thing to do against K Rool, K Rool's aerials don't really counter up-b, mostly

Any other advise would be fantastic
 

SmashKeks

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Messages
825
Location
Normistotzka, Kekistan
Inkling and pretty any character that relies on projectiles. Inklings dash always throws me off, I'm just not used to seeing such a unique dash, and the animation itself looks like an attack and I never know how to comprehend it until it's too late lol.
Slightly related but I do wonder if some of the Inkling's moves can be used as cross ups camouflaged by their dash, such as dash > Slosher or Dash > Paintbrush.
 

GAINAX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
244
K rool with 3 million GSP here!

When it comes to matchups, Ness is probably the hardest fight in the entire game for K Rool in my opinion. He can bat away all projectiles, combo to death from 0% with PK fire and a bunch of fairs, but the worst offender is the damn yoyo he can hang off the edge for like 3 seconds. It pretty much gimps K Rool's ability to get back on stage entirely.

When it comes to the Belmonts, I can't say I've had much trouble. Crown is a great tool to get through projectile spam on stage. All you have to do is throw them off stage and quick fall nair off the level to interrupt their recovery. GG.
 

G-Guy

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
807
NNID
G-Guy1990
:ultpokemontrainerf:: This one is pretty disgusting, because of :ultsquirtle:and:ultivysaur:. Let me elaborate.

:ultsquirtle:: While this speedy lil' fella has troubles killing us, his fast neutral is hard to come by by our means. Once he gets that grab at low %, you better get ready to board the combo train (I'd like to call our obese Krocodile "King K. Kombofood" ever since meeting up with an amazing regional pkmn trainer)

oh and that train aint stopping until you reach 70-80 % No DI or else can save you from it. its true.

If it was just :ultsquirtle: alone, though, this would not be a problem.
The real problem is :ultivysaur:.

So. razorleaf outspams us easily, bair combos into itself across almost the entire stage, many aerials and throws combo into up B and kill ridiculously early (like, at 70-80%...where have I seen that number before?) oh and dair spikes not only through the kopter, but through the stage itself.
It's absolutely ridiculous...
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
I had some troubles against a Ness. I just won once over a set of 7-10 matches. I didn't know his forward smash was able to reflect projectiles. He wasn't strong and was using sub-optimal moves (neutral b), but he was damn fast and I couldn't really do anything. I was basically combo food the whole time, he could connect a lot of moves and get me off stage in no time. When I timed the tech wrong he would always stage spike me, and he was juggling with me using up-b off stage. His side b was very annoying and while I could smash-DI out of it sometimes, it always connected into a grab or an aerial. Overall it was a nightmare, but I learned a few things:

- avoiding being too repetitive on spamming because they can reflect it back at you
- just accept being combo food at low % so don't try to stick a nair here and there because that won't work
- online sucks so it was difficult to place correctly-timed nairs but I felt that was a good way to approach somehow

Any other advice against Ness in general is much appreciated. I know ti hasn't changed much from Smash4 but I never played it (I come from melee) so I was pretty much surprised to see how they improved his kit and it really felt like toxic playing against him.
Ok I’m a Ness main and I basically think free win when I see K Rool pop up in quick play. I think I’ve lost like one in 20 matchups against him. It really is a nightmare matchup for K Rool. Now I don’t play K Rool so I don’t know what it’s like on your end but I know what it’s like on my end. If I can hit one PK Fire or down grab the stock is basically over. PK Fire seems more effective on K Rool than almost any other character in the game. I’m usually able to juggle combo with fair and uair until about 80% off of one throw. Not to mention that I’ll PKT juggle K Rool forever to the point where nair, uair, or back throw will kill comfortably. That’s a big hill to climb up

There are things that bother me about K Rool though, one is that he takes forever to die. I always feel in the drivers seat in the matchup but sometimes I get impatient and throw out a random fsmash or two. What I’ve noticed about a lot of K Rool players is they use their counter way too much and if you use your counter before I can land that forward smash. If you can hit the counter on it I’m usually dead. Also try and throw out your projectiles in a way that isn’t predictable. A lot of the time when I’m fighting K Rools they’re super predictable with their projectile game and the ones that mix it up can definitely give me more trouble

That said against Ness you’re gonna have to make a ton of hard reads on smashes and counters and play a perfect projectile game to win. Even if you do that you still probably won’t. It’s really just a horrible match up for K Rool. Just trying to give you the tips I can from my perspective as a Ness main
 

SmashKeks

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Messages
825
Location
Normistotzka, Kekistan
Ok I’m a Ness main and I basically think free win when I see K Rool pop up in quick play. I think I’ve lost like one in 20 matchups against him. It really is a nightmare matchup for K Rool. Now I don’t play K Rool so I don’t know what it’s like on your end but I know what it’s like on my end. If I can hit one PK Fire or down grab the stock is basically over. PK Fire seems more effective on K Rool than almost any other character in the game. I’m usually able to juggle combo with fair and uair until about 80% off of one throw. Not to mention that I’ll PKT juggle K Rool forever to the point where nair, uair, or back throw will kill comfortably. That’s a big hill to climb up

There are things that bother me about K Rool though, one is that he takes forever to die. I always feel in the drivers seat in the matchup but sometimes I get impatient and throw out a random fsmash or two. What I’ve noticed about a lot of K Rool players is they use their counter way too much and if you use your counter before I can land that forward smash. If you can hit the counter on it I’m usually dead. Also try and throw out your projectiles in a way that isn’t predictable. A lot of the time when I’m fighting K Rools they’re super predictable with their projectile game and the ones that mix it up can definitely give me more trouble

That said against Ness you’re gonna have to make a ton of hard reads on smashes and counters and play a perfect projectile game to win. Even if you do that you still probably won’t. It’s really just a horrible match up for K Rool. Just trying to give you the tips I can from my perspective as a Ness main
I haven't played quick play in awhile, and admittedly I suspect my main encounters with Ness were noobs who were trying to pk fire = win against me, and thus didn't have a backup plan when I got in on them, but to me K. Rool vs. Ness feels kind of like a snake vs. mongoose situation, where good Ness vs. good K. Rool give each other a fair amount of trouble. Ness has undoubtedly been able to juggle me and trap me with pk fires, but it never seems to be too long before I can close the space with armored nairs or other armored moves and do the cheesy stuff K. Rool is known for like throwing off stage, then attempting gentleman nairs/fairs knowing that I can still recover. Verdict is still out of K. Rool intercepting Ness' recovery, but Ness still has the same weaknesses regarding that too. Cancel the pk thunder with a projectile, clank, counter, or just eating it (and as you said, K. Rool survives, so if a K. Rool player gets the chance they might as well just sponge the damage to get a free stock off Ness.), and Ness is sucking. It's situational, but given K. Rool has better recovery than most, if a K. Rool player can manage to get Ness into the off stage state where he needs to recover, his versatility, options, and stellar recovery might encourage him to run in and intercept the thunder where other characters wouldn't risk it knowing they couldn't make it back onstage.

Overall, Ness players tend to annoy me, but I've held my own pretty well thanks to proper spacing due to armor, counter reflect usage, sheer survivability, and the fact that K. Rool can be damn oppressive if he gets in on Ness. Ness loves to keep K. Rool away, but being a light character, Ness can't take too many moves from K. Rool before he's losing a stock, and that includes K. Rool infamous down smash that can either eat or bypass another pk fire and smack Ness if he's closed in for a sizeable 18 damage. Now of course I don't recommend starting with dsmash, since it's not going to launch far from 0% and might leave K. Rool open to punishes, but preface it by landing some nairs, fairs, jabs, or ftilts on Ness, and suddenly closing the space and being punished by dsmash seems a lot more scary.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
I haven't played quick play in awhile, and admittedly I suspect my main encounters with Ness were noobs who were trying to pk fire = win against me, and thus didn't have a backup plan when I got in on them, but to me K. Rool vs. Ness feels kind of like a snake vs. mongoose situation, where good Ness vs. good K. Rool give each other a fair amount of trouble. Ness has undoubtedly been able to juggle me and trap me with pk fires, but it never seems to be too long before I can close the space with armored nairs or other armored moves and do the cheesy stuff K. Rool is known for like throwing off stage, then attempting gentleman nairs/fairs knowing that I can still recover. Verdict is still out of K. Rool intercepting Ness' recovery, but Ness still has the same weaknesses regarding that too. Cancel the pk thunder with a projectile, clank, counter, or just eating it (and as you said, K. Rool survives, so if a K. Rool player gets the chance they might as well just sponge the damage to get a free stock off Ness.), and Ness is sucking. It's situational, but given K. Rool has better recovery than most, if a K. Rool player can manage to get Ness into the off stage state where he needs to recover, his versatility, options, and stellar recovery might encourage him to run in and intercept the thunder where other characters wouldn't risk it knowing they couldn't make it back onstage.

Overall, Ness players tend to annoy me, but I've held my own pretty well thanks to proper spacing due to armor, counter reflect usage, sheer survivability, and the fact that K. Rool can be damn oppressive if he gets in on Ness. Ness loves to keep K. Rool away, but being a light character, Ness can't take too many moves from K. Rool before he's losing a stock, and that includes K. Rool infamous down smash that can either eat or bypass another pk fire and smack Ness if he's closed in for a sizeable 18 damage. Now of course I don't recommend starting with dsmash, since it's not going to launch far from 0% and might leave K. Rool open to punishes, but preface it by landing some nairs, fairs, jabs, or ftilts on Ness, and suddenly closing the space and being punished by dsmash seems a lot more scary.
This is all true and I’ve definitrly played some K Rools who have made me sweat but honestly I think the matchup is still pretty heavily in Ness’s favor. Ness has to be really careful to space correctly and keep K Rool at just the right distance to do work while staying out of the danger zone. This is pretty much Ness against all heavies though. They don’t match up well with him
 

SmashKeks

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Messages
825
Location
Normistotzka, Kekistan
This is all true and I’ve definitrly played some K Rools who have made me sweat but honestly I think the matchup is still pretty heavily in Ness’s favor. Ness has to be really careful to space correctly and keep K Rool at just the right distance to do work while staying out of the danger zone. This is pretty much Ness against all heavies though. They don’t match up well with him
That's true, no denying that. I'm not trying to claim it's a 50/50 by any stretch.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
That's true, no denying that. I'm not trying to claim it's a 50/50 by any stretch.
Yeah I get what you’re saying, it’s defintely doable but it sure as hell isn’t gonna be easy (against a good Ness that is). I just wanted to give you guys some insights to why I think the matchup is easy so maybe you guys could get something out of that and keep in mind what I’m trying to do
 

LeeSmash4Me

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
784
Location
Krocodile Kore
I have a lot of trouble fighting:ultpalutena:(but I ain't mad since I love her as well) and any other sword character and zoners like:ultsnake:. It's like I don't know how to get back safely to the stage against them once at disadvantage. Plus approaching them is just a nightmare. Any tips against them?

I also seem to struggle against:ultdk:as well. Pretty fitting to the main canon, but oh well...
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
I have a lot of trouble fighting:ultpalutena:(but I ain't mad since I love her as well) and any other sword character and zoners like:ultsnake:. It's like I don't know how to get back safely to the stage against them once at disadvantage. Plus approaching them is just a nightmare. Any tips against them?

I also seem to struggle against:ultdk:as well. Pretty fitting to the main canon, but oh well...
Sword characters and zoners are just tough match ups in general. Against swordies, just use your spacing and bait out moves (don't forget your projectiles). If your playing a zoner like Ness or Snake, try using L+R+A+Start and picking a new character.

DK I think is one of the most fun, even matchups, which like you said is fun considering the canon. Remember you have projectiles. DK also has a very exploitable recovery, and K Rool has a bunch of hard hitting spikes. I think you get the rest. Do be careful of DK's back air off stage, and watch out for his instant-belly-busting-moves. Lastly, DK's side b has a stupid amount of super armor and it sets up for an easy KO, so make sure to avoid it.
 

~The Koopa King~

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
872
Location
Alvarado, TX
Switch FC
3169-5182-0524
Convinced that ganondorf/captain falcon players just get all excited and giddy when they see a K.Rool on QP

because it doesn't take much for either of them to completely shatter the king's armor if you play against these two long enough You'll start to lose matches simply because that armor got destroyed instantly
 

G-Guy

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
807
NNID
G-Guy1990
I actually find the Ganon match-up to be very managable. He has to respect our projectiles and really cannot do a lot against well spaced crown spam.

Once he gets in, though, we need to be careful with our belly, otherwise we're cracked open easily.
It's actually a really fun match-up that plays very cerebral.

Falcon's rushdown can be a pain, though. our projectiles don't hassle him as much as they do with Ganon and the endlag can give CF the chance he needs to get in and start a long combo string. Luckily, his aerials are safer to belly-bust through and an over-extending falcon can get his Knee Gut checked right back into himself for a surprise kill.
I do consider CF to be the harder of the two enemies, though, because he is out zoned much harder.
 

Jaro235

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
168
Switch FC
SW-3773-6120-6819
I struggle against Incineroar no matter what character I use. I can get passed the other heavies without too much issue, but I cannot get a grasp on how to deal with this cat. I try to combo him, he lands a counter out of nowhere and gets a power boost. He is capable of doing over 50% with one move when he is boosted. His side B is super obnoxious and it always catches me off guard. His smash attacks seem to have more range than they should. And finally, he just doesn’t die! He lives at ridiculous percentages, more so than the other heavies, and then he kills me at 67% when a non charged or boosted down smash barely lands. No matter what I try, I just cannot grasp on how to deal with him because unlike the other heavies, he is unpredictable. I struggle with other characters such as Fox, Olimar, and Yoshi, but I am more annoyed with Incineroar. I have less problems with top tiers such as Lucina, Ike, Palutena, and Inkling than I do with Incineroar!
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
I struggle against Incineroar no matter what character I use. I can get passed the other heavies without too much issue, but I cannot get a grasp on how to deal with this cat. I try to combo him, he lands a counter out of nowhere and gets a power boost. He is capable of doing over 50% with one move when he is boosted. His side B is super obnoxious and it always catches me off guard. His smash attacks seem to have more range than they should. And finally, he just doesn’t die! He lives at ridiculous percentages, more so than the other heavies, and then he kills me at 67% when a non charged or boosted down smash barely lands. No matter what I try, I just cannot grasp on how to deal with him because unlike the other heavies, he is unpredictable. I struggle with other characters such as Fox, Olimar, and Yoshi, but I am more annoyed with Incineroar. I have less problems with top tiers such as Lucina, Ike, Palutena, and Inkling than I do with Incineroar!
I think King K actually has a good matchup against Incineroar. Projectile spam makes it easy to keep him out (especially with Incin's slow speed). But you have to understand that Incin revolves around grabs and intimidation. If you aren't intimidated by Incin, he can't do anything. Just read when Incin will go for a side-b, be careful shielding, and don't be scared when he has his counter activated (just work your way to grabbing him to neutralize). His recovery is fine but it's definitely abusable.

TL;DR don't let Incin play his game, and don't get grabbed. GG EZ game
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
my-image.png

Here's my take on King K match ups. Open to criticism. And yes, I do realize there a a lot more losing match ups than winning. (Tiers are in no particular order)
 
Last edited:

SecretAsianMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
136
A non-gordo spammy good Dedede Beats King. K Rool by a large margin. Long range and high damage moves, a really annoying as hell projectile, Consistant ledge traps that you cant poke the gordo with the jankbox of the propeller pack, one of the best recoveries in the game and huge endurance, and can combo out of landing nair, up-throw, d-throw and gordo, and has a "reflector". Tough machup indeed.

IDK mabe my elite K. Rool is just bad, or the Dedede's I fought are youtubers with changed tags.

Oh and did I mention Jet hammer has super armor?
 
Last edited:

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
my-image.png

Here's my updated take on the K Rool match up. As you'll note, K Rool is at a disadvantage to any fast or projectile characters. He has an advantage on characters with no / weak projectiles, particularly if they're slow. I think sword characters are actually easier for K Rool since he has good spacing tools and armor.

Some special notes:
-Zero Suit has a true kill confirm at 20% against K Rool, just don't play that match up
-While Bayo is trash, her combos are scary on our big boy
-I used to think playing agaist Snake was an easy loss, but now I think it's about 40/60. Abuse the recovery, pay attention to the explosives.
-Most even match up has to be against DK, oddly enough.
-Lucario is only in Advantage because we can kill so early that Aura isn't a threat

I still think K Rool has more Disadvantage / Losing match ups, but this is just a suggestion. If you go against a Fox you aren't certain to lose, if you go against a Ganon you aren't certain to win. Keep pushing these match ups and maybe we can sway them in our favor, Kremlin Krew.
 

SecretAsianMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
136
Lucario is a solid character without aura. He got a projectile, good combos, decent kill moves, a projectile, and a pretty good recovery. Aura is just the icing on the Cake.
 

QuantumKiller

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Texas
NNID
ShreckIsDreck
3DS FC
1435-5574-6890
I'm very sure Corrin has a winning matchup against K Rool. Corrin gains stage relatively easily against him and is able to ledge trap him very hard due to his sheer size and lack of good get up options. I know that's a con K Rool has versus against almost every character, however Corrin has a plethora of bnb combos that rack up a ton of damage off bad get-ups and puts him in a bad position again (in the air to be sharked / ledge / offstage). Edgeguarding K Rool is also relatively easy because of the multitude of disjointed kill moves Corrin has that typically avoid his up-b hitbox and at worst trades. There are plenty more reasons why he loses but those are the ones that really hurt K Rool in the mu. I'm not aware of a major con Corrin has in the mu but please let me know because I've yet to see or encounter a K. Rool that has taken advantage of said con.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
Lucario is a solid character without aura. He got a projectile, good combos, decent kill moves, a projectile, and a pretty good recovery. Aura is just the icing on the Cake.
No arguments here. I think Lucario is scary even at low percents. However, there is absolutely no way Lucario is getting the kill without Aura. And to make matters worse, K Rool has an option for every single one of Lucario's attacks. I think if you had two, equally smart players K Rool would win 70-80% of the time.

I'm very sure Corrin has a winning matchup against K Rool. Corrin gains stage relatively easily against him and is able to ledge trap him very hard due to his sheer size and lack of good get up options. I know that's a con K Rool has versus against almost every character, however Corrin has a plethora of bnb combos that rack up a ton of damage off bad get-ups and puts him in a bad position again (in the air to be sharked / ledge / offstage). Edgeguarding K Rool is also relatively easy because of the multitude of disjointed kill moves Corrin has that typically avoid his up-b hitbox and at worst trades. There are plenty more reasons why he loses but those are the ones that really hurt K Rool in the mu. I'm not aware of a major con Corrin has in the mu but please let me know because I've yet to see or encounter a K. Rool that has taken advantage of said con.
To be completely honest, I've never played against a solid Corrin. This is the main reason I placed them where I did. However, like I said I think K Rool has an advantage over most sword characters. Cannonball and crown beat out most options, and Corrin's lackluster recovery is a free spike for K Rool. The only issue I see is getting in to begin with, but I do think K Rool has the tools, particularly with armor and projectiles.
 
Last edited:

QuantumKiller

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Texas
NNID
ShreckIsDreck
3DS FC
1435-5574-6890
To be completely honest, I've never played against a solid Corrin. This is the main reason I placed them where I did. However, like I said I think K Rool has an advantage over most sword characters. Cannonball and crown beat out most options, and Corrin's lackluster recovery is a free spike for K Rool. The only issue I see is getting in to begin with, but I do think K Rool has the tools, particularly with armor and projectiles.
Looking back I think I might of slightly misjudged how you ranked MUs in your chart, so sorry if my first reply sounded a bit harsh. I believe K Rool is inherently a read based character (traditionally like most heavyweight characters) which makes him heavily rely on the player to do well and will hold the player back once they reach a higher level of play. That said, it's still important to play whoever you have fun with as you can always improve yourself to make cons of your character less hurtful/apparent.

Similar to you I haven't played a solid K Rool, but from a bit of analysis I don't see him having the neutral options to compete without a disadvantage. Because of K Rool's design he is constantly losing neutral and will have to sometimes rely on counter hits with armor moves to win. What makes this bad is that his belly armor will become prone to breaking and will be limit him even further. Since these armor moves become a good chunk of his neutral, they have the downside of allowing run up shielding to be extremely effective. Another downfall of having armor that breaks is that it makes juggling K Rool more brutal since he can't use nair coming down and his other aerials have too much startup. This is why I believe that sword characters (disjoint characters in general) have a slightly easier time fighting him.

An issue with K Rool's projectiles is that they're relatively easy to parry and punish due to how telegraphed and slow they are, so I have my doubts that they'll work reliably versus a decent opponent. This is not to say they're completely useless but they're weaker projectiles in neutral compared to something like Ivysaur's razor leaf or Wolf's blaster. I do think the crown and cannonball are good punish moves and have a number of potential kill setups, but reliably putting your opponent in those situations again relies on winning neutral.

As for Corrin, I wouldn't say landing a spike on her is necessarily free but I do think K Rool's nair is much better overall for gimping her. I also want to note that Corrin's recovery got buffed last patch to have 3 more frames of invulnerability during startup which has helped just a bit to counteract that.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
420
Location
Yeehaw, Texas
Looking back I think I might of slightly misjudged how you ranked MUs in your chart, so sorry if my first reply sounded a bit harsh. I believe K Rool is inherently a read based character (traditionally like most heavyweight characters) which makes him heavily rely on the player to do well and will hold the player back once they reach a higher level of play. That said, it's still important to play whoever you have fun with as you can always improve yourself to make cons of your character less hurtful/apparent.

Similar to you I haven't played a solid K Rool, but from a bit of analysis I don't see him having the neutral options to compete without a disadvantage. Because of K Rool's design he is constantly losing neutral and will have to sometimes rely on counter hits with armor moves to win. What makes this bad is that his belly armor will become prone to breaking and will be limit him even further. Since these armor moves become a good chunk of his neutral, they have the downside of allowing run up shielding to be extremely effective. Another downfall of having armor that breaks is that it makes juggling K Rool more brutal since he can't use nair coming down and his other aerials have too much startup. This is why I believe that sword characters (disjoint characters in general) have a slightly easier time fighting him.

An issue with K Rool's projectiles is that they're relatively easy to parry and punish due to how telegraphed and slow they are, so I have my doubts that they'll work reliably versus a decent opponent. This is not to say they're completely useless but they're weaker projectiles in neutral compared to something like Ivysaur's razor leaf or Wolf's blaster. I do think the crown and cannonball are good punish moves and have a number of potential kill setups, but reliably putting your opponent in those situations again relies on winning neutral.

As for Corrin, I wouldn't say landing a spike on her is necessarily free but I do think K Rool's nair is much better overall for gimping her. I also want to note that Corrin's recovery got buffed last patch to have 3 more frames of invulnerability during startup which has helped just a bit to counteract that.
Let's get some games in some time to see who's right lol.

So, you're right about King K being read dependant, but I don't think that holds people back since he's such a hard hitter (but maybe that's just my pride). King K actually has a very strong neutral. His projectiles set up neutral really well. Crown and cannonball are easy to deal with on their own, but when you have a slow moving cannonball that eats hits, an unstoppable crown, and the second heaviest character in the game all charging at you at once, it's not so easy to deal with. And I think you're underestimating shield and overestimating how often it's used. The way I play, at least, I only use belly as a get-down option or to hopefully trade / beat projectiles. Against Corrin I'm not even a little bit scared for my belly armor. Again, the only thing I'm actually worried about against Corrin is how long her smash attacks are, and Nair. Besides that, I firmly believe K Rool has the tools to beat Corrin.

But srs, lets get online so you can prove me wrong.
 
Top Bottom