anti IC trick

[Cosmo!]

when approaching with a fair on their double shield, to guarenteed you won't be ****ed by the hitlag, hold R and up on the C stick as you are l cancelling, this ensures a jump on the first possible frame so you dont mistime your jump and get punished. situational.

 

[Sybawave]

I think I will try this...where did you get that from?

 

[Cosmo!]

messing w/ jumping out of falcos dair on shield using the c stick, realized this might be an interesting application, tried it out, works good

can also work if like, doc shoots a pill then runs and shields, and your fair is gonna swipe thru the pill. or maybe if you were like trying to fair thru like 3 shy guys lol

I suppose you could get really good w/ c jumping and use it every time you wanted to instantly jump out of an l cancel, but I dont have a problem timing my jump the normal way usually. it is frame perfect though.

 

[ComboTurtle]

whats the use of doing this for falcos dair? you can jump out before he shines? or?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno if buffering jumps is different from buffering rolls and spotdodges, but if I recall correctly, Mew2King said that the shield comes up for at least a frame when you do this kinda thing so it isn't frame perfect, per se.

 

[Sybawave]

Well I can't get it to work in the first place lol so let me get this straight...(And I am pretty technical)

Fair
L-cancel....Hold L
Up on C-Stick?

 

[Cosmo!]

elven maybe you're right, no idea lol, but 1 frame of error is probably better than most people can manage manually

syba: fair, L hold L and C stick up before the L cancel lag ends.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I dunno if buffering jumps is different from buffering rolls and spotdodges, but if I recall correctly, Mew2King said that the shield comes up for at least a frame when you do this kinda thing so it isn't frame perfect, per se.

The shield has to come up for atleast a frame when you're buffering spot-dodges/rolls aswell.
So if you buffer anything it'll be done on the second frame after the lag instead of the first (unless you where already holding shield, and buffered it during shieldhitlag or something. but the shield has to be up for atleast 1 frame before they roll/spot-dodge/jump)
Magus told me this, I could find the post if you want me to (i could find it easily cuz it was in a thread i made)

on topic: another important technical detail is that if you would press up-c on the first frame after the lag of something (like an attack) you'll do an usmash even if you where holding shield. Cuz the c-stick has higher "button priority" the L/R.
Magus told me this aswell
Just wanted to point that out, cuz I sometimes accidently D-smash when I try to buffer spot-dodges for this reason. (so that people know why it happens if it does )
But if you press the c-stick direction at the same time as you L-cancel like Cosmo said this won't happen.

This is really good, people should start buffering stuff more in general. Nobody has good enough timing to consistently time their jumps/rolls/spot-dodges this well. I just need to get into the habit of doing it, as it is now I only buffer spot-dodges after tech's and slow laggy attacks (if I know I'm going to get grabbed)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wait... explain the smash thing again? If you're holding shield and someone hits your shield and you push up on the C-stick, you'll actually usmash?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

wow i suck at explaining stuff lol
By "lag" I meant lag from an attack or something like that, not shieldhitlag.

So: you're in lag from something and hold shield. Then, on the first frame after the lag (like if the attack lags for 7 frames, im talking about frame 8) you press c-stick up.
The game will register this as if you pressed L/R on the same frame, and since the c-stick has more button priority then L/R you'll do an usmash.

It has to be on the first frame for this to happen. If you did it before the game won't register it as if you pressed the c-stick since you where holding it, so your char will put up your shield and then do whatever you buffered the frame after that.
And if you do it during any of the frames after the first frame, your char is already holding his shield up so pressing c-stick up will make you jump.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Huh. Interesting.

 

[goateeguy]

whats the use of doing this for falcos dair? you can jump out before he shines? or?

Maybe during pillaring if something goes wrong and you don't even have time to get away with a shine ->jump cancel.

 

[Cosmo!]

i dont know frame data but fox tends to be able to jump over the shine, after the dair and land on falco with a nair

marth is tall and slower so its worse

 

[elvenarrow3000]

As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun
Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28
29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine Again


I hope this clarifies everything for everyone, but i have a feeling it's going to generate more questions than answers. This just goes to show, The pillar is not as safe as you think.

Edit: this is the kind of **** you should quote in the first post.

^-- Early dair still puts you in a position to grab/jump nair if you're frame perfect. Although they have to be frame perfect too.

 

[goateeguy]

^-- Early dair still puts you in a position to grab/jump nair if you're frame perfect. Although they have to be frame perfect too.

i bet that happens often

 

[elvenarrow3000]

. . . ?

 

[goateeguy]

. . . ?

you said they both had to be frame perfect for it to work. doesn't sound to me like something that would work very often.

 

[KirbyKaze]

shffl fair ---> up b

make sure to land on a top platform

best on bf, dl, and yoshis but not because you won't be punished but because nana's lack of di will kill her fast

obviously doesn't work on neutral stadium and fd

but you banned fd right?

 

[Cosmo!]

^^^^ I like that one vs jiggs and peach cause they have poor vertical speed

---

sh uair tips thru top platform on yoshis story, helps if you want to continue to platform-gay spacies if they get up there

 

[IrArby]

To bad you can't buffer shieldgrabs. Then again that'd be incredibly broken.

Has anyone tried doing this and rotating the Cstick forward to Fair. It could be hard to let go of the Cstick to SH (ideal move) and not hold it to long to Full Jump but Fairing at the beggining of a Full jump still leaves you with the option to Fair again upon landing.

Another question: couldn't you just hold up on the Control Stick during your lag? I'm not sure off the top of my head. *Goes to test it*

 

[elvenarrow3000]

you said they both had to be frame perfect for it to work. doesn't sound to me like something that would work very often.

I meant if you were frame perfect and they were frame perfect, you would grab them. Which means the margin of error for both people is zero.

 

[halcyon.days]

Meh. Against ICs, just spam dtilt and win.

 

[goateeguy]

I meant if you were frame perfect and they were frame perfect, you would grab them. Which means the margin of error for both people is zero.

oh, i thought you meant it only worked if the opponent was on a specific frame. those are much better odds lol

 

[TemPesT-]

To bad you can't buffer shieldgrabs. Then again that'd be incredibly broken.

well this is just a guess..but if you can buffer a jump, shouldn't you be able to JC grab the jump?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Meh. Against ICs, just spam dtilt and win.

see, when my friend did that wobbles jumped over him with fair and knocked him over jab reset and then did the combo of a million f-tilts.

d-tilt is good for pressuring the ics, but defensively it's not really that good if the ic is really good.

if they're bad it's amazing though.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

well this is just a guess..but if you can buffer a jump, shouldn't you be able to JC grab the jump?

Kinda. You can buffer a jump so that you can see your shield go down immediately after shieldstun, and provided you have retardedly, impossibly good reflexes you can grab a frame after and have a frame perfect grab off by one frame, but... I dunno, if your reflexes were that good, I think you wouldn't be having any problems with anybody ever.