[Answered] How to approach with Roy?

[Coest]

I'm coming as a Marth main and I really really like Roy so far and I want to improve my game with him. The one thing I'm having trouble with is approaching and neutral. Normally with Marth you can space with fairs, short-hop dancing blades, etc. But Roy seems to be far more aggressive than Marth since you need to be up close for the sweet spot. I have trouble sometimes getting in on opponents. Any tips for this?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Yep, his fall-speed means you can't do retrating fairs and stuff like that... I have no idea how to safely approach as Roy.. Maybe RAR rising Bairs or short hope Neutral B? just throwing things out, haven't had a "real" match as him yet.

Walk up Dtilt is as good as Marth's, poke them shields! Another idea is cross-up falling Uair.

 

[Zaprong]

You said it

He is far more aggresive

Go full aggro.

Perfect shield your opponents hit and you can basically get anything out of that.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I run in towards them and then do a retreating short hop and wait for their first strike. Then punish with a falling N-air or whatever seems right upon landing. That's usually what I do to get things started.

Approaching in this game without a projectile or any aerials that are safe on shield (at close range) has risks I don't want to take.

Spoiler

but I sometimes can't resist the urge to go in with le ph1r3 and throw out f-airs and n-airs like crazy. Doesn't always work but when it does it works fine.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Be more aggressive. Try using nair to get in since it's safer on shield and u can confirm off of it and dtilt from a distance. Up close you also wanna use dtilt and jab as well.

 

[Oblivion129]

I think you should take advantage of Roy's fast fall speed and use stuff like FF Aerials or empty hop into grab if you think the opponent will shield. With his ground and air speed you have lots of mix-up options.
Walking, dashing, dash grab, empty hop, SHFF aerials, roll behind opponent, etc.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

With some practice you can do a cross-up Nair ala Marth. First hit is right above enemy then you fall with the second hit BEHIND and they can't shield grab while you actually have a backwards hitbox with it. You just have to be REALLY close.

Also, his Fsmash is way safer on block than Marth so.. GO crazy with Foxtrot fsmash.

 

[Toxiphobe]

Short hop neutral air is a good way to trap your foe. Roy's grabs are supposed so set up combos which is why it lacks knockback range so think on those.

 

[Zatchiel]

Maybe RAR rising Bairs

Another idea is cross-up falling Uair.

I've come to like these too. B-air has more vertical coverage than f-air, so I think it's preferable over f-air against grounded opponents. Rising f-air isn't hitting anything on the ground, which sucks. If you whiff with rising b-air you can use another aerial from the apex of that jump. I tend to go with n-air or falling u-air.

For approaching, I like to dance around my opponent's range and look for n-air, u-air, d-tilt, grab, or jab opportunities so I can get something started.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Practicing dance trotting can scare opponents into reacting as well as empty jumps and running and blocking

 

[IrkenPPG]

Approaching isn't really difficult with Roy. Grab works good, Forward Air is the best move to use as it is strong, fast, and not much end lag. Down tilt is awesome, 11% up close and great range. Nuetral B is a good move, nerfed from Melee with move end lag but not to the point of making it unusable. Side B isn't great, not bad, but no more than 2 swings. Nuetral Air is good, however wouldn't use it often. Back air is strong, not the best range but still pretty good. That is about it. Hope this helps you use Roy in Smash 4.

 

[Wattz]

I usually use SH nair > dtilt or grab, but like others have said go full aggro Roy hits like a truck so take advantage of that

 

[Razmakazi]

Walking is good. Jab and dtilt are great.
He gets really good horizontal range on his short hop so Sh nair is great, along with sh cross-up uair. Uair is huge so the timing to space the sourspot is super forgiving. If I think they'll challenge my jump I go for the nair. You can also empty hop grab people too, or empty hop cross-up because his sh is so ridiculous lol. It seems cross-ups are generally very reliable as roy.

 

[FMHappy]

This may be a dumb question, but how do you autocancel his nair? Also when you SH nair, do you guys always fast fall it?

 

[Dooms]

This may be a dumb question, but how do you autocancel his nair? Also when you SH nair, do you guys always fast fall it?

I don't think you have to auto cancel it (nor do you really want to, since you want the last hit to be really close to the ground for optimal coverage). My understand is that it generally just has relatively low ending lag.

I'm the type of player that waits for the opponent to do something, and that generally works really well for Roy. If they dash in, retreating fast fall neutral air works really well for me, and you can cover your landing with jab, dtilt, or simply walking away.

Also make sure you're playing mobile. Mix it up between fox trots, empty short hops (this is really good since the opponent can never know if you're going for empty hops or neutral airs assuming you're mixing it up, which can lead to a grab sometimes), and walking.

 

[LEGOfan12]

You said it

He is far more aggresive

Go full aggro.

Perfect shield your opponents hit and you can basically get anything out of that.

Pretty much this.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I found out you can do a SH rising Fair and jump before the landing lag.. so.... SH rising Fair then jump backwards to avoid grab or jump forward and Bair behind them.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

Good ways go Approach that also Start Combos:

Nair - Ties into Dtilt. Which after this hit can tie into another Nair.

Dtilt - Ties into Nair, or a Grab, which that in its own can start a combo.

Ftilt sends your opponent far away but its good if you wanna get them offstage.

Which is actually good for Roy because of his great Aireal kills.

 

[Liyrex]

Unlike with Marcina, fair isnt really a good approach option, nair into d tilt seems to work best for me

 

[micahclay]

How do you approach projectile heavy characters? I'm really struggling with match-ups like DHD, Pikachu, Tink. Usually I get shield grabbed or hit by another projectile. Once I get in, I'm fine, but how do you approach without getting punished?

 

[GuardianZen]

Fair actually is a pretty safe approach if you use it like this: https://youtu.be/O2GZhjC4uTk?t=8m47s

 

[Miley]

Awesome. Thanks for that vid.

Edit: looks like it's going to take a lot of practice.

Jumping a forward + a or c-stick is nearly impossible to do fast enough (can get maybe 1/10 tries) since my jump button is X.

Only way I can do it fast enough is with L as my jump (which it is a second jump button for out of shield) but i find it extremely difficult to short hop consistently with L

 

[Chiroz]

Awesome. Thanks for that vid.

Edit: looks like it's going to take a lot of practice.

Jumping a forward + a or c-stick is nearly impossible to do fast enough (can get maybe 1/10 tries) since my jump button is X.

Only way I can do it fast enough is with L as my jump (which it is a second jump button for out of shield) but i find it extremely difficult to short hop consistently with L

With practice you get used to short hopping with L. Roy's short hop is also easier than most. I get it 100% consistently (I jump with R).

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Approaching with Roy is pretty effective when you utilize F-air's IASA frames.

 

[Miley]

I'm starting to get the f-air IASA down. What are some of the good options? I have been messing around in training mode with f-air to f-air. F-air to retreating/advancing f-air. F-air to fast fall n-air. F-air to n-air. F-air to retreating/advancing nair. F-air jump behind them with a falling u-air.

F-air to dash grab? or would the second jump cause enough delay for it to be obvious?

 

[mangojuice]

Hi. I have a very basic question. I'm a smash newb coming from the streetfighter world.

1) It seems like when you fast fall SH vs regular SH, there is more landing lag on the fast fall SH. If this is the case, why use FFSH at all as it is more unsafe? I see a lot of the top players Fast Falling most the time.
2) When people mentioning "teching" it is nothing but shielding X frames before you land right to reduce lag right? What is this about hitting a quick attack before landing to also reduce landing lag?
3) It seems like nothing is safe on block lol, making this a very defensive game. Or am i just playing wrong.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Chiroz]

Hi. I have a very basic question. I'm a smash newb coming from the streetfighter world.

1) It seems like when you fast fall SH vs regular SH, there is more landing lag on the fast fall SH. If this is the case, why use FFSH at all as it is more unsafe? I see a lot of the top players Fast Falling most the time.
2) When people mentioning "teching" it is nothing but shielding X frames before you land right to reduce lag right? What is this about hitting a quick attack before landing to also reduce landing lag?
3) It seems like nothing is safe on block lol, making this a very defensive game. Or am i just playing wrong.

Thanks for the help.

1-) It depends. Landing from a FF without any action gives about 2-3 more frames of lag (depending on your character) but you reach the ground 40% faster (which for Roy would equate to about 6 frames since someone said he lasted 30 frames in the air. I am assuming it's 15/15 rise/fall) so the opponent has less time to reach you or punish you.

If on the other hand you perform an aerial you are going to suffer the lag the same landing lag for the aerial either way (it does not change whether you're fast falling or not).

Another thing to take into account is that an aerial only causes lag if you land before X frame of the attack (this is called the auto cancel frame), so sometimes Fast Falling will in fact cause more lag than just falling regularly. For these specific scenarios it's normally better to not Fast Fall.

As an example to illustrate this scenario say you have a char that spends 50 frames rise to land, has an aerial which auto cancels on frame 40 with a landing lag of 15. If you were to fast fall the aerial you would probably land before the auto cancel window and lag more than if you just fell regularly. Note that these values and example are not accurate to how the game behaves, I am just trying to explain a difficult concept in an easier to understand method.

In order to learn which aerials you should FF or not it's just about playing (or reading about it from someone experienced). As for Roy, the only aerial you shouldn't be FF is F-Air and that's because it's FAF (First Actionable Frame, or the first frame you can act after the move is done; how much it lags in the air. This is also known as IASA or Interruptible As Soon As Frame) is actually *lower* than it's auto cancel window AND Roy's jump frames. What this means is that if you land (either FF or not) Roy will land with lag, there's nothing you can do about it, but if you don't FF Roy can actually move before you land, allowing you to input another move right as you're landing.




2-) Teching is when you press the shield button when you're about to land from hitstun/tumble animation in order to instantly get up as you land (instead of landing with your character resting on the floor). It can also be done when you're launched into a wall/ceiling/floor and it ill stop your momentum (or severely diminish it) allowing you to survive attacks you otherwise wouldn't. When you tech you're given different options about how to stand up, your character might stand up in place or stand up while rolling forward or backwards.

There's also a significant "phrase" which people use that says "Tech chasing" this is basically pressuring your opponent by following his "escape options" as you're hitting him. This involves "chasing" someone who'se about to land on the floor and might tech the landing with one of the 3 options listed above. Tech chasing also involves just following and limiting your opponent escape options. If you launch your opponent in a certain way where he can only do certain actions and you follow him trying to limit those options and guess/predict which of his limited options he will take, it's still considered a tech chase.




2.5-) So remember when I said FAF and Auto Cancel frames and Landing Lag? Let me expand a bit on that:

Landing Lag is the lag you suffer from the last move you performed.
Auto Cancel Frame is the frame in which the last action you performed will not cause any lag anymore.
FAF is the first frame on which you can act after performing said action.

There are some aerial moves that have their ACF (auto cancel frame) after their FAF, what this means is that you can input another move before the move is "safe" from lag upon landing. If you land in the frames in between the FAF and ACF then you will suffer landing lag from the move you just performed. But as I said earlier, it is possible for you to perform another aerial before you land and if you do so then the Landing Lag you suffer will be that of this new aerial attack instead of the first one.

I'll try and illustrate with an example: Say you last 50 frames in the air and your F-Air has a landing lag of 30, FAF on frame 40 and ACF on frame 60. If you land after the F-Air you are suffering the 30 frames of landing lag, but if you input N-Air between frame 40 and 50 (after FAF but before you land) then you can replace those 30 frames of landing lag with N-Air's landing lag (which let's say it's less than 30), thus "speeding up" your landing.




3-) There certainly are attacks that are safe on block, but it's character dependent. Sheik and Luigi are the characters that most come to mind (although Luigi isn't exactly prone to approach aerially because of his aerial mobility). Most characters have attacks that are relatively safe (although not 100% safe like say, Sheik), which can only be punished if your opponent knows exactly what you're going for. Roy's N-Air is hard to punish if spaced correctly, and his F-Air can be cancelled with a jump which allow for "relatively safe" approaches.

Honestly I wouldn't say this game is defensive, but defense currently is stronger than offense.

 

[mangojuice]

1-) It depends. Landing from a FF without any action gives about 2-3 more frames of lag (depending on your character) but you reach the ground 40% faster (which for Roy would equate to about 6 frames since someone said he lasted 30 frames in the air. I am assuming it's 15/15 rise/fall) so the opponent has less time to reach you or punish you.

If on the other hand you perform an aerial you are going to suffer the lag the same landing lag for the aerial either way (it does not change whether you're fast falling or not).

Another thing to take into account is that an aerial only causes lag if you land before X frame of the attack (this is called the auto cancel frame), so sometimes Fast Falling will in fact cause more lag than just falling regularly. For these specific scenarios it's normally better to not Fast Fall.

As an example to illustrate this scenario say you have a char that spends 50 frames rise to land, has an aerial which auto cancels on frame 40 with a landing lag of 15. If you were to fast fall the aerial you would probably land before the auto cancel window and lag more than if you just fell regularly. Note that these values and example are not accurate to how the game behaves, I am just trying to explain a difficult concept in an easier to understand method.

In order to learn which aerials you should FF or not it's just about playing (or reading about it from someone experienced). As for Roy, the only aerial you shouldn't be FF is F-Air and that's because it's FAF (First Actionable Frame, or the first frame you can act after the move is done; how much it lags in the air. This is also known as IASA or Interruptible As Soon As Frame) is actually *lower* than it's auto cancel window AND Roy's jump frames. What this means is that if you land (either FF or not) Roy will land with lag, there's nothing you can do about it, but if you don't FF Roy can actually move before you land, allowing you to input another move right as you're landing.




2-) Teching is when you press the shield button when you're about to land from hitstun/tumble animation in order to instantly get up as you land (instead of landing with your character resting on the floor). It can also be done when you're launched into a wall/ceiling/floor and it ill stop your momentum (or severely diminish it) allowing you to survive attacks you otherwise wouldn't. When you tech you're given different options about how to stand up, your character might stand up in place or stand up while rolling forward or backwards.

There's also a significant "phrase" which people use that says "Tech chasing" this is basically pressuring your opponent by following his "escape options" as you're hitting him. This involves "chasing" someone who'se about to land on the floor and might tech the landing with one of the 3 options listed above. Tech chasing also involves just following and limiting your opponent escape options. If you launch your opponent in a certain way where he can only do certain actions and you follow him trying to limit those options and guess/predict which of his limited options he will take, it's still considered a tech chase.




2.5-) So remember when I said FAF and Auto Cancel frames and Landing Lag? Let me expand a bit on that:

Landing Lag is the lag you suffer from the last move you performed.
Auto Cancel Frame is the frame in which the last action you performed will not cause any lag anymore.
FAF is the first frame on which you can act after performing said action.

There are some aerial moves that have their ACF (auto cancel frame) after their FAF, what this means is that you can input another move before the move is "safe" from lag upon landing. If you land in the frames in between the FAF and ACF then you will suffer landing lag from the move you just performed. But as I said earlier, it is possible for you to perform another aerial before you land and if you do so then the Landing Lag you suffer will be that of this new aerial attack instead of the first one.

I'll try and illustrate with an example: Say you last 50 frames in the air and your F-Air has a landing lag of 30, FAF on frame 40 and ACF on frame 60. If you land after the F-Air you are suffering the 30 frames of landing lag, but if you input N-Air between frame 40 and 50 (after FAF but before you land) then you can replace those 30 frames of landing lag with N-Air's landing lag (which let's say it's less than 30), thus "speeding up" your landing.




3-) There certainly are attacks that are safe on block, but it's character dependent. Sheik and Luigi are the characters that most come to mind (although Luigi isn't exactly prone to approach aerially because of his aerial mobility). Most characters have attacks that are relatively safe (although not 100% safe like say, Sheik), which can only be punished if your opponent knows exactly what you're going for. Roy's N-Air is hard to punish if spaced correctly, and his F-Air can be cancelled with a jump which allow for "relatively safe" approaches.

Honestly I wouldn't say this game is defensive, but defense currently is stronger than offense.

Unbelievable. Thanks a ton.

But teching isn't making the landing "lagless" though right? It's just reducing the frame disadvantage. My thinking is this. Say if you're about to land. You know that link is going to try and tether grab you , or that bowser is going to command throw you. Is it possible to spot dodge as soon as you land? That way you can avoid the punish.

 

[Chiroz]

Unbelievable. Thanks a ton.

But teching isn't making the landing "lagless" though right? It's just reducing the frame disadvantage. My thinking is this. Say if you're about to land. You know that link is going to try and tether grab you , or that bowser is going to command throw you. Is it possible to spot dodge as soon as you land? That way you can avoid the punish.

Teching is standing up before you hit the ground. I think you might have it confused with L-Cancelling from Melee (which is reducing the lag when you land by pressing shield). L-Cancelling is no longer part of the game in this iteration.

To explain Techning, basically when you're hit your character goes into an "I'm hit" animation, this animation lasts a certain amount of frames depending on the strength of the attack you got hit with. If you land before this animation is over then your character will land lying on the floor and your opponent can freely punish you. If you land before this animation is over but press shield right before you land your character will land and instantly stand up. Your character can stand up in 3 ways: Forward, Backward or In-Place. Your opponent can only punish you if he guesses which way you're teching thus making it more improbable for your opponent to punish you.

Also teching can be done on ceilings and walls (basically whenever you hit a solid object while in this "I'm hit" animation). Teching against a wall, floor or ceiling will stop your momentum and thus allow you to survive ANY hit.

This is an example of teching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQG-E_X1-HY




Yes it is possible to spot dodge as soon as you land but you have to remember landing takes 2-5 frames (depending on what speed you're falling at), also there are several frames where they can grab you where you're still airborne. Basically there's about 5-10 frames of airborne movement where Link/Bowser can still grab you and then 2-5 landing lag frames, but on the very next frame your shield will be up and 3-5 frames later (depending on what character you're playing) you will spot dodge.

This equals less than 20 frames or less than 1/3rd of a second that your opponent is sure to get the grab, but we also have to take into account how long his grab takes to activate, which is probably 6-10 frames depending on which character he is using (which makes his window for effectively grabbing smaller). There are also things you can do like faking out landings and double jumping away (your opponent might go for a grab and then be stuck in lag from the grab), or spacing your landing as far as possible so that he has to waste time dashing (giving you more time to dodge, you only need about 10 frames to dodge effectively, a little space is enough), maybe if you're sure he's going for a grab you can just aerial him in the face if he isn't going to shield and get a hit in, etc.


Landing effectively is one of the hardest parts of fighting high tier players and it's kind of the reason you don't want to stay up in the air too long (Obviously this is character dependent. Some chars like Jiggz and the Kirby Franchise just love to be in the air).

 

[mangojuice]

Teching is standing up before you hit the ground. I think you might have it confused with L-Cancelling from Melee (which is reducing the lag when you land by pressing shield). L-Cancelling is no longer part of the game in this iteration.

To explain Techning, basically when you're hit your character goes into an "I'm hit" animation, this animation lasts a certain amount of frames depending on the strength of the attack you got hit with. If you land before this animation is over then your character will land lying on the floor and your opponent can freely punish you. If you land before this animation is over but press shield right before you land your character will land and instantly stand up. Your character can stand up in 3 ways: Forward, Backward or In-Place. Your opponent can only punish you if he guesses which way you're teching thus making it more improbable for your opponent to punish you.

Also teching can be done on ceilings and walls (basically whenever you hit a solid object while in this "I'm hit" animation). Teching against a wall, floor or ceiling will stop your momentum and thus allow you to survive ANY hit.

This is an example of teching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQG-E_X1-HY




Yes it is possible to spot dodge as soon as you land but you have to remember landing takes 2-5 frames (depending on what speed you're falling at), also there are several frames where they can grab you where you're still airborne. Basically there's about 5-10 frames of airborne movement where Link/Bowser can still grab you and then 2-5 landing lag frames, but on the very next frame your shield will be up and 3-5 frames later (depending on what character you're playing) you will spot dodge.

This equals less than 20 frames or less than 1/3rd of a second that your opponent is sure to get the grab, but we also have to take into account how long his grab takes to activate, which is probably 6-10 frames depending on which character he is using (which makes his window for effectively grabbing smaller). There are also things you can do like faking out landings and double jumping away (your opponent might go for a grab and then be stuck in lag from the grab), or spacing your landing as far as possible so that he has to waste time dashing (giving you more time to dodge, you only need about 10 frames to dodge effectively, a little space is enough), maybe if you're sure he's going for a grab you can just aerial him in the face if he isn't going to shield and get a hit in, etc.


Landing effectively is one of the hardest parts of fighting high tier players and it's kind of the reason you don't want to stay up in the air too long (Obviously this is character dependent. Some chars like Jiggz and the Kirby Franchise just love to be in the air).

That's one of my issues right now. I don't have many people to play with, but my only sparring partner plays Bowser who often command grabs me as I land. Long story short, learn to land and not be so predictable =P. That and I have to learn patience. I was winning 50/50 online with DK and Yoshi. I had problems killing with Yoshi so now I'm trying to pick up Roy.

I'm having a blast learning Smash though. I don't have the time to practice SF 1 frame links anymore. And there's something awesome about playing with cartoon characters .

 

[MarioMeteor]

You have the second fastest walking speed in the game, and you can do everything while walking, so usually that's the way I approach. If you're not that patient, short hop Nair is good.

 

[Chiroz]

You have the second fastest walking speed in the game, and you can do everything while walking, so usually that's the way I approach. If you're not that patient, short hop Nair is good.

This isn't Marth, it's Roy. Roy has a slow walk speed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The SMARTEST thing to do is just wait for a grab. Approaching gets you MAULED. Even Sheik doesnt WANT to approach. Approaching in general is not smart. Even in real fights attacking alot generally leaves you too open. Its just better to wait for opportunities. If you feel you just don't have that patience then Roy has some good options.

SH Nair is very safe when tipped, due to Roy's hitlag modifier. Decent landing recovery. Good in footsies as well. His d-tilt is actually Brawl Marth's d-tilt in terms of frame data. IMO it's the best poke in the game overall in terms of damage/safety ratio. Dance trotting is very strong with Roy. Good way to bait something and retaliate. Dash grab is strong due to Roy's high reward and strong mix-up/trap game. Dash to Double Edge Dance is solid. Transcendent move that will eat other pokes besides ones with armor or invincibility. Roy commits to this heavily though so it must be used with caution.

 

[Chiroz]

The SMARTEST thing to do is just wait for a grab. Approaching gets you MAULED. Even Sheik doesnt WANT to approach. Approaching in general is not smart. Even in real fights attacking alot generally leaves you too open. Its just better to wait for opportunities. If you feel you just don't have that patience then Roy has some good options.

SH Nair is very safe when tipped, due to Roy's hitlag modifier. Decent landing recovery. Good in footsies as well. His d-tilt is actually Brawl Marth's d-tilt in terms of frame data. IMO it's the best poke in the game overall in terms of damage/safety ratio. Dance trotting is very strong with Roy. Good way to bait something and retaliate. Dash grab is strong due to Roy's high reward and strong mix-up/trap game. Dash to Double Edge Dance is solid. Transcendent move that will eat other pokes besides ones with armor or invincibility. Roy commits to this heavily though so it must be used with caution.

SH to tipped N-Air is probably much safer since it has more range and less landing lag.

F-Air has the advantage that you can cancel it into any special or a 2nd jump if you don't Fast Fall it which makes it safe when you mix it up in between the N-Airs, but otherwise I don't think F-Air on shield is safe even when tipped.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So, you basically just repeated what I said? Because I didnt even mention fair.

 

[Chiroz]

So, you basically just repeated what I said? Because I didnt even mention fair.

Ah, for some reason I read F-Air. My bad, don't know how that happened.

 

[Razmakazi]

Yeah the double edge dance feels slow but stuffs a lot of approaches and it puts the opponent in a pretty awkward position if it lands on a shield. DED is just super reliable and really great to lead into mix-ups and other footsies.

 

[LIVERPOOP]

agree with people saying the best approach is to wait! patience is the key to this game, patience then punishment. that's one of the key things i keep reading and what i've truly realised playing the game - i am clearly playing my best when playing smart and patient and reactionary. yes, roy is aggressive, but that doesn't mean you can go in all guns blazing, you need a cool head until you can unleash that burning desire. watching a roy play well and patiently and waiting for the chance to strike, like a snake, and doing it successfully is so good to watch. like a SNAKE. when you strike, make it count, don't be half assed!

be patient then strike and mean it!

 

[Leeyam]

agree with people saying the best approach is to wait! patience is the key to this game, patience then punishment.

Hard to just wait for an opening when a lot of cast such as Villager and Tink can just keep getting out projectiles and camping you out.

 

[ARKills]

I like to approach with Shff Nair, empty hops or rising Bair