Another look at dthrow

[Zankoku]

So, I've been rather unimpressed lately by the little combo of fthrow fair/uair, and tried Sheik's dthrow again. I find that it's actually pretty good if you see it for what it is - a launcher that opens up juggling options. Don't try to immediately follow it up, because you can't combo with it - instead, bait a reaction from the opponent and punish accordingly.

I try to mess around with it here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=d8eLReeQBig
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1zo-P_h_QNA

And here's a vid of me applying it after a bunch of experimenting:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ii48oXSzXdg

 

[ADHD]

So we can once again hear *thud thud* ?

 

[Zankoku]

If you like. Ryoko seems to prefer uthrow, and I can't blame him - it gives less opportunity to DI and deals 1% more damage. Use whichever you prefer, but I think dthrow/uthrow work better than the side throws when in the center of the stage.

 

[imdavid]

sheesh, i was getting so sick of *thud* and i miss the *thud thud* too, sheesh. (i think sheik mains talk a different language o_O)

 

[stealthsushi]

Man do I miss the "thud thud" sound of the D-Throw. I've been making a steady move towards using B-Throw and F-Throw, but Ankoku makes a good point that D-Throw, while its nearly impossible to get the guaranteed combo out of it (unless they're at like 0%), it can make for some great follow up if you bait an air-dodge. D-Throw almost always sends at roughly the same trajectory (45-60 degrees) despite the throw being so DI'able from Sheik like most people do. Also, most people tend to air-dodge immediately expecting an aerial follow-up. This allows Sheik to once again, utilize her insane mind-games game and catch the opponent in an unexpected delayed B-Air, fall straight into an F-Tilt, or get caught in a ghetto-chain grab.

While the F-Throw and B-Throw are unique in their own sense with the DI trap, I feel you can accomplish the same kind of "bait" tactic employed with the D-Throw. But the DI is much less predictable with these throws and it doesn't have that much feared "thud thud" sound that forces everyone to DI the same way that the D-Throw does. I feel the F-Throw and B-Throw make a much better mix-up to confuse the opponent into making bad DI decisions as they are executed more quickly (once again, one "thud" vs. "thud thud").

As for U-Throw, I almost never use it. What kind of good follow ups can you do with it? It always seems to send them so high that the only way you could follow up immediately was with a U-Air, and forcing an air dodge is trickier given the height.

Overall, it looks like Sheik has a lot of variety on her throw where the trajectory varies drastically from throw to throw. I expected nothing less from our favorite ninja. Maybe going F-Throw and B-Throw all the time isn't the best way to go. I'd love to see D-Throw make a dramatic comeback after Gimpy's thread denouncing it as a crappy throw.

Btw, have you guys heard about Sheik's release-grab on MK being an unescapable Chain-grab to the edge? Can't experiment myself, but I'd love to hear some more info about it.

 

[Zankoku]

It's pretty difficult to do, I'd rather just save it for the guaranteed usmash setup it gives.

Anyway, airdodge from a dthrow can also be punished with tipper usmash.

 

[stealthsushi]

Ah I noticed that during the first demonstration video you put up. It was definitely a clever (and painful) punish for immediately air-dodging. I'd assume it'd also work with a Chain Lock, SHC, and Vanish?

 

[Zankoku]

Possibly. Just do whatever you like, though Vanish has quite a startup time so you practically have to see the airdodge coming from a mile away to hit with it.

 

[stealthsushi]

Heh. True.

Just a side question, is there any situation where using the U-Throw would be more useful than using the other throws? I'm don't see how the extra 1% and the decreased ability to DI it can help Sheik when it sends them far up where it doesn't appear that Sheik can effectively capitalize on it. Its so rare to see the U-Throw in action.

 

[Zankoku]

I have no idea. I personally just don't like the uthrow, so don't ask me for any thoughts on it.

 

[demodemo]

I have always used dthrow more then any of my other throws

i often spam it on purpose to get it stale. it performs much better this way

i almost ALWAYS go into a sh/fh uair, since uair has awesum range and decent priority

it is also fast, and if autocancelled can lead into tilts

seriously, dthrow is like sex to me. in ankoku's last video, you can see a part at 1:35 where marth gets a hefty 58% from a chain of attacks

I seriously did not understand why people do not do that more often. I get it down all the time, because from a dthrow, your opponent is basically set in a trap , and nomatter what they do (attack/airdodge) they can be punished. be aggressive in your followups. what are they going to do? airdodge? punish. Attack? perdict the attack and airdodge/space accordingly

i only use fthrow for setting up stage fair gimps

 

[Zankoku]

I made a mistake, uthrow deals 5%, dthrow deals 6%. Whatever.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The Uthrow is so rare to see that people don't know how much damage it does. Looking at whole points of damage, they each do:

Uthrow: 5
Dthrow: 6
Fthrow/Bthrow: 7

As far as the "when to use Uthrow" question, just try it in friendlies. It'd be more helpful to you to experiment with it yourself rather than take my word for it, which not a lot of people seem to do, anyway.

 

[stealthsushi]

I'll be sure to give it a try myself when I get the opportunity. There must be a reason why the game developers decided to make Sheik's U-Throw the weakest throw Its not like it was the most overused throw in Melee (not by a long shot). Maybe there's something really useful about it that hasn't caught my eye. Can't wait until the opportunity :D!

 

[ADHD]

I thought that gimpyfish killed the dthrow, but you can go into a uair the first time, then by instinct they sometimes airdodge into a vanish lol.

 

[The Great Leon]

Its pretty simple, but hey, I didn't think of it. Another good idea I got from Ankoku was from one of his AiB blogs about how "they always airdodge. just wait and punish it." Watching your vids feels sort of like you were, say, waiting to hit-confirm in a 2-D fighter. Sitting and waiting is again so simple, but I'll definitely be implementing this bait,n,wait.

Another thing I noticed from watching an old match of mine is that if you're on a stage with a low platform (it happened to be Halberd) you can go ahead and follow up from a throw immediately. Most people have instantly airdodging so ground into their brains that they airdodge into the platform, leaving them vulnerable. It actually works pretty well, and then they start jumping away, but thats pretty predictable too.

 

[TigerWoods]

THe bait and wait seems to work well, as long as they are expecting you to folow up for an aerial, so i guess first few times fail on purpose?