Analysis: Why Do We Not Want Characters?

[Spinosaurus]

You have to remember though that the only reason Falco was even in to begin with was the fact that Sakurai decided to add clones at the last minute, and there was no reason to remove him after ending up being a huge fan favorite. Wolf was also a last minute addition (if I remember right? He certainly feels unpolished compared to other characters), but not a clone. Star Fox got lucky, it's not about importance.

 

[SSJ Kirby]

I can hardly fathom why anyone would want someone like Goku in the game, Nintendo's All Stars /=/ anime bull****.

 

[Dinoman96]

You have to remember though that the only reason Falco was even in to begin with was the fact that Sakurai decided to add clones at the last minute, and there was no reason to remove him after ending up being a huge fan favorite. Wolf was also a last minute addition (if I remember right? He certainly feels unpolished compared to other characters), but not a clone. Star Fox got lucky, it's not about importance.

Wolf might of been a low priority character (But then again, so were Jigglypuff and Toon Link, going by that), but I believe the entire roster was planned out back in 2005-2006, with the exception of Sonic.

 

[praline]

Many of these seem to fall neatly into one or more of the categories I mentioned, which is good. Makes me more confident in my analysis. Except one though it looks like. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on Pac-Man a little bit? Perhaps make it more personal if you could?

Like He had the one good game. Way way back in the arcades. He's had new games out since then but does anyone ever talk about Pacman anymore? Not really. I don't even think Namco considers Pacman their mascot anymore. I'm pretty sure it's like Nightmare now.

 

[DonkaFjord]

The only one I actually do agree with personally are the non nintendo character/non video game characters should stay out of smash (Rob is a special case.) Overall I try to keep my mouth shut and not bash anyone else's wants because people want characters that they usually a very special moment with or like very much. Just because that character didn't resonate with you doesn't mean someone else isn't freaking out over their possibility. Sakurai tries very hard to maintain a balance of left field newcomers and highly requested newcomers, so maybe someday the majority will be satisfied with the roster.

Very nice points made though.

Like He had the one good game. Way way back in the arcades. He's had new games out since then but does anyone ever talk about Pacman anymore? Not really. I don't even think Namco considers Pacman their mascot anymore. I'm pretty sure it's like Nightmare now.

He still is very popular due to him being ingrained into our collective pop culture (and many non gamers know of him- he fits in with mario/sonic/pokemon/etc. being the "faces" of gaming in pop culture.) Also they consider the Prince from Katamari Damacy and Pac Man as their mascots. They sometimes use the pookas from dig dug as well.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Like He had the one good game. Way way back in the arcades. He's had new games out since then but does anyone ever talk about Pacman anymore? Not really. I don't even think Namco considers Pacman their mascot anymore. I'm pretty sure it's like Nightmare now.

Pac-Man is still their mascot.

He's everywhere in Namco games. So many little cameos.

 

[praline]

Pac-Man is still they're mascot.

He's everywhere in Namco games. So many little cameos.

Is he? Honestly aside from Tales games and occasionally Soul games I don't really partake in Namco games.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Is he? Honestly aside from Tales games and occasionally Soul games I don't really partake in Namco games.

That would be kinda... why you wouldn't notice maybe? Pac man isn't as 'dead' as so many argue on here that he is, he just probably doesn't interest people and that is fine. (I also get the drift some don't like him because they want xyz character if namco gets a rep, which they might not.)

 

[praline]

That would be kinda... why you wouldn't notice maybe? Pac man isn't as 'dead' as so many argue on here that he is, he just probably doesn't interest people and that is fine. (I also get the drift some don't like him because they want xyz character if namco gets a rep, which they might not.)

I know he's not dead. I've seen the games. Hell I've watched the crappy tv show.

 

[DonkaFjord]

I know he's not dead. I've seen the games. Hell I've watched the crappy tv show.

I didn't say you thought he was, I said many on here argue he isn't relevant at all anymore. I knew you didn't, and the show isn't super terrible, but it isn't anything special. Wreck it Ralph, Pac Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Sonic Boom, and the ongoing Pokemon Anime make me pretty nostalgic of the late 80/90s video game cartoons.

 

[Cobalsh]

Is he? Honestly aside from Tales games and occasionally Soul games I don't really partake in Namco games.

You should play more Tekken and SFxT. Some of the best fighting games I've ever played.

 

[JamesDNaux]

The only character that I actively don't want in Smash is Pac-Man, simply because he is only popular because of one really good game and has been mediocre at absolute, top-of-the-mountain best since then. He is also no more relevant to Nintendo than any other 3rd Party character with games on multiple consoles, except that Miyamoto made that dinky-*** game that one time than nobody played (excluding myself) and those Mario Kart arcade games.

Pac-Man was legendary, but now the only thing he's legendary for is having a terrible children's show and pumping out garbage and terrible character designs.

I also respect your reasons for not liking Pac-Man, but I feel that, in response to the bolded, saying that about Pac-Man is like saying Elvis isn't legendary anymore because he died on the ****ter. He was amazing while he was around, and what he made is still amazing, but the way he went out wasn't very "legendary." A more appropriate comparison would be Spyro, many people still love his old games but absolutely hate his newer games.

Why don´t people like Impa?

I like Impa, but it's a little exasperating when you throw her around at every second. Though I wouldn't mind that either, I'm sure most people here would have absolutely no problem with your support of Impa if you didn't want to cut Sheik at the same time. There's no reason we can't have both, but with the way you've always gone about saying Impa should replace Sheik, I'm sure most of us have just begun to associate Impa with the loss of Sheik, so that makes us not want her.

As for my own response to this thread, there's only one character I actively dislike and do not want in Smash, I'd even be ok with Miis, but not Bowser Jr.

1. I do have a bit of personal dislike of him, though it's mostly for the reasons why people dislike, say, Navi. I find him to be extremely annoying, he's akin to the Scrappy Doo of Mario.
2. I don't think he would add much new either, unless being a small Bowser clone with a paintbrush that can turn into a Mario clone in a Zelda/Sheik fashion is unique.
3. Some people seem to think he's important enough to get in, and while he is somewhat important to Mario (obviously, as he keeps getting shoved into it), we already have the main villain, Bowser himself, which makes Jr's importance null.
4. Mario is also sitting at a comfortable five characters, there's really no need to add him at all.
5. And even if Mario did get another character, Toad is an infinitely better choice.
6. He doesn't apply to this point.
7. Or this point.
8. I would never want something like this, so not this point either.

The rest of the points don't apply either, but that's the general gist of why I'm completely off-put by the idea of Scrappy Koopa.

 

[Spinosaurus]

You should play more Tekken and SFxT. Some of the best fighting games I've ever played.

SFxT is awfully iffy (haven't played the updated version) but Tekken Tag 2 is arguably the best fighting game available now.

Street Fighter 4 is my go to though.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

SFxT is awfully iffy (haven't played the updated version) but Tekken Tag 2 is arguably the best fighting game available now.

Street Fighter 4 is my go to though.

Meh, SFxT is alright... I suppose.
ssb64 is still my way to go, judge me all you want.

 

[Speculator]

Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that, if a three game series like KI really doesn't warrant two characters, than SF shouldn't really warrant its three characters because of there being five games. And yet, it has just that.

To be honest, I don't think Star Fox really does warrant its three characters. Like @ Spinosaurus said, Falco was a clone addition in Melee and I think his entry was partly thanks to an easy inclusion and not because he was necessary for Star Fox representation. I think SF's situation would be more akin to introducing Dark Pit as a second Kid Icarus rep, not a totally new fighter like Palutena.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'll just post a quickie for now but what I personally think is #4 (or well 5) is not something people should take to heart. Something more important to this in game design is this rule I like:
X does not equal Y
X has nothing to do with Y's inclusion

This isn't really the thread to talk about it but I personally jus think that one is a cop-out excuse.

Others are indeed a valid reason to not only dislike a character but why they may not be in. Then again, towards the end I skimmed.

Great thread, misleading title.

 

[RadRedi]

Why don´t people like Impa?

I know this has been answered a few times already, but I thought I'd go ahead and give you a definite opinion from someone who's neutral-negative about Impa.

I think the best answer that can be given was already covered by @ JamesDNaux with this little tidbit:

I'm sure most people here would have absolutely no problem with your support of Impa if you didn't want to cut Sheik at the same time.

While I understand that Sheik is a one-time character, Sheik is a part of Zelda's character in the Smash Bros. universe. He/She is an alter-ego of the series' namesake. And, I think the same way people got over Wii Fit Trainer and Rosalina's inclusion, because Sheik was executed so nicely, people were okay with it.

That being said, I understand Impa is not a one-time character. But being a major backseat Zelda fan, I personally have never felt that Impa's existance was very significant until Skyward Sword. (And since this isn't a debate - just an explanation - I won't go into great detail about a whole lot. I know Impa was in OoT with an important enough role in the game's lore).

Because Sheik was introduced and made Zelda a unique character in Melee, all was well with the universe. Having an alternate fanbase that talks frequently about cutting that does kind of mess with the "status quo". I just feel that, if they were going to cut Sheik, replace him with Impa, and then just shove Sheik's moves onto Impa, there's no reason to cut Sheik in the first place. And I don't feel like Impa has enough under her belt to be a unique character away from what Sheik can do.

 

[DonkaFjord]

To be honest, I don't think Star Fox really does warrant its three characters. Like @ Spinosaurus said, Falco was a clone addition in Melee and I think his entry was partly thanks to an easy inclusion and not because he was necessary for Star Fox representation. I think SF's situation would be more akin to introducing Dark Pit as a second Kid Icarus rep, not a totally new fighter like Palutena.

A lot of people seem to agree starfox isn't super deserving of 3 roster slots, but in terms of Nintendo's history... maybe we should cut them some slack. Starfox's success was what allowed and funded the opening of the Nintendo of Europe/PAL headquarters.

 

[Luigi#1]

Alph-CLONE! 2 new Pikmin doesn't mean not a clone. And making them a trio just means 3 Olimars.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

guys pac-man is even more of a mascot still to namco than megaman is to capcom

just saying

A lot of people seem to agree starfox isn't super deserving of 3 roster slots, but in terms of Nintendo's history... maybe we should cut them some slack. Starfox's success was what allowed and funded the opening of the Nintendo of Europe/PAL headquarters.

A lot of slack needs to be cut. I'm seeing some stuff that makes me look optimistic.

 

[Speculator]

A lot of people seem to agree starfox isn't super deserving of 3 roster slots, but in terms of Nintendo's history... maybe we should cut them some slack. Starfox's success was what allowed and funded the opening of the Nintendo of Europe/PAL headquarters.

Yeah. And now they're here, I don't want to see any of the Star Fox characters go, although I would like things shaken up a bit.

 

[shrooby]

I can hardly fathom why anyone would want someone like Goku in the game, Nintendo's All Stars /=/ anime bull****.

Tell that to Miiverse.

I'll just post a quickie for now but what I personally think is #4 (or well 5) is not something people should take to heart. Something more important to this in game design is this rule I like:
X does not equal Y
X has nothing to do with Y's inclusion

This isn't really the thread to talk about it but I personally jus think that one is a cop-out excuse.

Others are indeed a valid reason to not only dislike a character but why they may not be in. Then again, towards the end I skimmed.

Great thread, misleading title.

5) is more commonly used as an add-on reason rather than a base.
In other words, one would already have reasons to not want a character. They would obviously want time and work to be put into a character they do want rather than one they don't. You have to already not want a character in order to think 5) about the same character.
To give an example, let's say I don't want Toon Zelda to be playable, because I think she'll be a clone of Zelda and I think the Zelda franchise doesn't need anymore characters. I also want Shulk and Bandana Dee to be playable. With these two thoughts together I think to myself "If Toon Zelda were playable, that would take time and work. Time and work that could go to Shulk and Bandana Dee." The thinking here is that there is a set amount of time the development team actually has to work on the game. I already don't want Toon Zelda playable for other such-and-such reasons, but the fact that her being playable would take time and energy away from making other characters that I do want is another. But only as a result of me not wanting her in the first place.
At least that's what I'm assuming the line of thought is for that particular case. It's understandable, but arguable from a game development standpoint. But the main point here is that if you convince somebody to not think that they're probably still going to be against the character, so it's best to just work around the other reasons.

Darn it, I'm really bad with this thread naming thing. I had renamed it once already to avoid confusion!

 

[Thirdkoopa]

oh okay so i was thinking of #4, thanks!

 

[CrossoverMan]

I don't get why people want Geno so much. The guy was pretty much in every wanted characters video on Youtube back in 2007. Their only argument is 'YAYZ LAZER BEAMZ'. Mallow would be so much more fun to play as. Stretchy limbs? Check? Healing spells? Check. Mind rapings? Check. FRIGGIN LIGHTNING BOLTS? Check.

 

[praline]

Yeah. And now they're here, I don't want to see any of the Star Fox characters go, although I would like things shaken up a bit.

I'd prefer Wolf get replaced with Krystal.

 

[RadRedi]

I'd prefer Wolf get replaced with Krystal.

I think that, if you're going to just come out and say something that potentially controversial, you should go into detail about why you feel that way without stepping on anybody's toes. I, personally, would like to understand why people find Krystal a more deserving character than Wolf, possibly adding to the OP in the process, but the curt wording here is something that could get a Wolf fan needlessly ticked. I know I'm not a mod, but I'm still curious...

 

[praline]

I think that, if you're going to just come out and say something that potentially controversial, you should go into detail about why you feel that way without stepping on anybody's toes. I, personally, would like to understand why people find Krystal a more deserving character than Wolf, possibly adding to the OP in the process, but the curt wording here is something that could get a Wolf fan needlessly ticked. I know I'm not a mod, but I'm still curious...

Huh... I was certain I added more. I guess that goes with lack of sleep. lol

I think Wolf is a pointless addition. I didn't want him in Brawl because I knew he couldn't amount to anything more than a tweaked clone of Fox. Krystal actually could have a unique move set with her staff.

 

[RadRedi]

Huh... I was certain I added more. I guess that goes with lack of sleep. lol

I think Wolf is a pointless addition. I didn't want him in Brawl because I knew he couldn't amount to anything more than a tweaked clone of Fox. Krystal actually could have a unique move set with her staff.

Hm...fair enough. I can understand that. Biases aside, Wolf really is in the limbo between clone and semi-clone (whereas Falco is pretty much just a floatier Fox clone, as of Brawl).

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, people ignoring the A button when people say Wolf is a clone.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I loathe the concept of "same character, new moveset". Dr. Mario was the worst Melee addition, as was Toon Link to Brawl. They're clones of the worst kind. No amount of uniqueness would make Dark Pit or Paper Mario worth occupying slots over, because I highly doubt they'd be different enough to warrant the space.

And another thing about Paper Mario? He runs over Game and Watch's gimmick (2-D flat character with a variety of gimmicks).

 

[SmashShadow]

Any version of Mario that is not regular Mario:
-I want NEW CHARACTERS, not renditions of the same character. Not to mention the obvious potential for clones.
Any version of Link that is not regular Link:
-Even Toon Link is clone and they had every opportunity to try and represent the Toon Games which would've made it slide on the previous point I made with Mario but they failed to do that too. I will forever see it as a wasted slot by having a faster weaker exact clone on the roster.
Waluigi
-He's amazingly full of character but as a character, he has so very little importance.
Daisy
-Same as Waluigi but with much less character and even less importance...and potentially a clone. Seriously, why does anyone vouch for her?
Krystal
-I don't hold any biases against the character but 4 Star fox characters is appalling especially when series like DK has only 2 characters. >.>
Shulk
-I just don't see why a character with 1 game should get in over the dozens of characters that have had a much larger game radius. I just feel like he's drastically overestimated. Unless he's in this new X game, I don't really see any reason to add him.
2nd Sonic or Metal Gear character
-...No
Pretty much any FE sword user at this point
-I know Sakurai can make them unique, but they don't seem like anything but new versions of Marth to me. I even own Awakening and love the game but Chrom and Lucina don't seem to inspire anything in me.
Second F-Zero rep
-While this series does deserve a second character, the series is also dead as nails. It doesn't help that Samurai Goroh doesn't have any unique qualities at all and Black Shadow would need to make a moveset from scratch.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Ridley -
The reason I don't want Ridley is because he does not interest me at all. I was never a fan of Metroid, and I think he is overrated as a character. I don't see how well he could work compared to others (No hate, just my feelings toward).

Zoroark -
Even tho I love Pokémon, and I love Zoroark, I rather want to see the like of Mewtwo over him. And even Genesect.
I wouldn't want Zoroark to steal a spot from another character that could deserve it more. He's time is up.

Midna (& Wolf Linke?) -
I was never a fan of Twilight Princess. I don't see Midna as a character with so much uniqueness that it would make a good character, and the Wolf Idea would be a stupid idea in my opinion.

Dixie Kong -
I'm a huge huge huge fan of King K. Rool and I just look at Dixie as a threath for the Spot of a new Donkey character.
I don't see her being much of a chance, too alike Diddy Kong really.

Bowser Jr & Toad -
I've seen a 3 way battle right from the start between Toad, Bowser Jr. and Waluigi. And as a huge fan of Waluigi he dominated my view. I like Toad as a character, not much of a B Jr Fan.

Any TOON character -
I'm okey with Toon Link to represent the genre, but any more would be an overdue. Seeing Toon Link back is ok, but more is more than it deserve.

Mach Rider -
I think the character is a cool concept, but I would not like the character to be part of Smash as of yet, it deserves more games to keep my interest of the character, I see so many other Retro characters be part of the game.

Black Shadow -
As a HUGE F-Zero fan, I really wouldn't let it do that they include Black Shadow. I see the likes of Samurai Goroh make a much more of an unique character than Black Shadow.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Pacman: I've expressed my opinions on Pacman many times in these forums, but thinking about it deep down I guess my only reason for not wanting him is just personal dislike. Mind you I like playing original arcade Pacman as much as the next guy, but that's about it for me. My only other memory of Pacman was World for the PS1 and it was pretty mediocre at best..
I could go on and on about how irrelevant to Nintendo Pacman is but its just my opinion really. I appreciate all you Pacman fans but simply put, to me Pacman just isn't Smash worthy.
I'll just leave it at that.

Miis: Honestly, Miis would probably be the biggest waste of a character slot ever in Smash Bros. I absolutely despise the idea of Mii as a character. Wii Fit Trainer already represents the "Wii" name brand perfectly enough. And Villager has the whole "Avatar" aspect covered. We don't need them. They're generic, boring, uninspired and a complete waste of time. Be honest here: How often do you play your Mii on Mario Kart? I sure as hell don't! I play MARIO KART to play with MARIO CHARACTERS!

*exhales* Sorry guys I got a little heated on that one and probably left myself wide open for a counter-argument but I'll just leave it at that. Correct me if I'm wrong but whatever...

Those are the only two character I absolutely don't want. I'm fine with anyone else but I only have minor nitpicks about them. Such as:

K.Rool: I don't like his design.
Krystal: Unless she replaces Falco then no thanks. And I'd rather Bandanna Dee as a spear user.
Daisy: Rosalina trumps her.
Dark Pit: It's like Good Cole and Evil Cole in PSASBR. Kinda redundant.
Toad: Never had a chance.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I wonder...which point do you think a general dislike of a fanbase goes? Like Krystal gets a lot of hate for her fanbase for example.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Why don´t people like Impa?

Me personally? I just don't think at the moment Zelda should have 5 reps. I think that there are good choices, but at the moment i just think the series is fine as is. Impa would be a decent addition, but the idea of cutting Shiek, which some Impa supporters advocate, makes me cringe. I am highly against cutting characters, so the idea of Cutting a popular veteran and transferring the moveset to another character? No thanks (Trust me, I was a tinge bitter towards Toon Link for it). So, either she replaces Shiek, or becomes a 5th Zelda rep? No thanks. If she is the unique character she can be, and does not replace Shiek, i am fine...

IMO, here is my Zelda list for newcomers...

A Tier (Huge Importance to the series, moveset potential)
Impa, Tingle, Tetra/Toon Zelda

B Tier (Good Importance to the series, moveset potential)
Vaati, Ganon (Beast Form)

C Tier (Little Importance to the series, moveset potential)
Ghirahim, Midna, Skull Kid (RIP), Young Link (With Masks)

D Tier (Little potential or importance)
Young Link (Without Masks)

 

[Dairz]

Even Toon Link is clone and they had every opportunity to try and represent the Toon Games which would've made it slide on the previous point I made with Mario but they failed to do that too. I will forever see it as a wasted slot by having a faster weaker exact clone on the roster.

Dude, wut. Toon Link is far from "faster weaker exact clone of link". Different Up Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, some throws, Dair works completely different... Toon Link is a semi-clone at worst. They didn't make Toon Link be a 100% unique guy because he was probably one of the last characters made.

 

[CrossoverMan]

It appears that the Smash community has become totally obsessed with Ridley, even going so far as to call him their favourite character ever. WHY!? He has no personality, and all he does is roar in his own games, and his only appeal is the fact that he makes a fairly decent boss in the Metroid series. Simply saying a character is your favourite based solely on their appearance is pretty shallow when you think about it. I'm not against Ridley at all, but I still think he is incredibly, obnoxiously overrated.

 

[APC99]

My reasons for not wanting a character? I'll usually adjust to a character after a while (Rosalina comes to mind), but most of the time, I think mine is just rivaling characters.

For instance:

Bowser Junior: I don't want him because I feel Toad, a character important to the series and has been around since the original Super Mario Bros., would be a better choice for a character who's "uniqueness" is completely based off of a weapon he used in one game. Yet, strangely, this does not affect Krystal for me, maybe because there's really no other Star Fox newcomers popular enough to be considered, and I drastically want variety in the series.

Cranky Kong: I feel that K. Rool is far more deserving, and should get in before Cranky. In fact, even Dixie should get in before Cranky. Eventually, if his playable roles continue, I can see him getting in after Dixie Kong and K. Rool, but otherwise, not really.

Pokemon Newcomer/ Pichu: I believe bringing back Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Red (with Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard) and Lucario, alongside Mewtwo, fills Pokemon perfectly.

 

[shrooby]

I wonder...which point do you think a general dislike of a fanbase goes? Like Krystal gets a lot of hate for her fanbase for example.

Hmm, it seems almost like it could be a combination of 1) and 8)
Like a more personal version of the "I don't want to see the fanbase be satisfied" if you know what I mean. Not just for the sake of being somewhat sadistic, (Sadistic is kind of an inaccurate word here. A more appropriate term would be Schadenfreude, which refers to joy that comes from seeing others experience bad things. Sadism more refers to physical/emotional pain. Umm, but I digress...a lot.) but also for the sake of personally disliking something about those within the fanbase. Something 8) doesn't necessarily include.
I'd also argue that it could fall into 1) exclusively since disliking a fanbase goes along with personally disliking something about a character. Though, in this case it's not something directly about the character itself, so it's arguable.
An interesting thought. I'm not sure whether to include it as another point, or whether to expand the definition of a current one. Hmm...

 

[SmashShadow]

Dude, wut. Toon Link is far from "faster weaker exact clone of link". Different Up Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, some throws, Dair works completely different... Toon Link is a semi-clone at worst. They didn't make Toon Link be a 100% unique guy because he was probably one of the last characters made.

Dude, 6 moves being different is not a semi clone (not counting the down air because it's still the same move). That's less than 1/4th of his entire moveset. It's a slight improvement from Young Link but is still far from a semi-clone IMO.