An Observational Rant

[Umby]

Link to original post: [drupal=835]An Observational Rant[/drupal]



Having little to do on Smashboards lately, I've been lurking some of the boards (mostly Brawl related) that I rarely ever venture into, such as General Discussion and Tactics. I've also managed to find my way into the User Blogs section. As I read the myriad of posts bashing Brawl, I start to realize a few things that some other people should probably realize as well.

First off, the obvious stuff. Many Melee players were simply disappointed in the Melee to Brawl transition. What began as a fast paced, combo-oriented game turned into a slow, floaty, campy, busted game. Even though most of these Melee players dish out hate on the newer Brawl supporters that believe Brawl is better than Melee(a belief they are entitlted to), they have to understand, first off, how tough this transition is for them. It's almost an insult to have busted our fingers for nearly 8 years, pulling off insane, crowd-rousing combos while moving at lightning speed, only to have the next installation of Smash Bros. completely deviate from that. It's like cruising an empty freeway at 80+ mph only to stop a few miles later and getting caught in a traffic jam. If Brawl supporters can imagine that, they could probably sympathize with Melee players a bit more.

The next point of address is exactly why some people prefer Brawl to Melee, and why some people think Brawl is better. Once again the points are obvious. The majority of people like Brawl because it's EASIER TO PLAY. You can air dodge multiple times, you don't die until ridiculous percentages, the game engine's floatiness makes recovery extremely easy, and you rarely get caught in combos because of the lack of hitstun. This appeals to gamers that are newer to the Smash scene, as well as those who never got too far in the Melee scene.

I'd like to digress for a moment and say that I speak from experience. While I believe Melee is the better of the two games, and enjoy it more, I generally do better at Brawl than and Melee, and end up playing it more often.

Back on track, another appealing feature for Brawl is the availability of wifi. While you can witness about the same amount of complaint about wifi lag as you do with the game in general, you can't deny that the ability to play online is a selling point. These features are all intended to appeal to the general populace and not just hardcore competitive gamers. It should have been obvious from the start that the whole point of the Nintendo Wii and its respective games was to appeal to people in general. Really, Brawl is not meant to be a competitive fighter/platformer - It was meant to be a party game.

Yet another reason numerous Melee players despise Brawl so much.

So my first reason for this rant concludes that both Melee and Brawl players should realize the appeals of both games and sympathize with each other. Bashing either game out of fun is cool and all, but it sparks so many ******** conversations and opinionated arguments that even the participants of such conversations are getting extremely annoyed.

I'd now like to address arguments on the current Brawl metagame. Anxious as we are to further its development, some of the things I believe are holding us back are the talk of bans and hacks. Let's talk about bans first.

MetaKnight. Yes. He is a bit of a whore. So much so that people want to see him hauled out of competitive play. Regardless of my personal views about whether he should be banned or not (I am anti-ban, btw) I would like to ask, is banning MetaKnight really the right choice for competitive Brawl? If we do ban him, will the current metagame be any more or less balanced, or will some other character simply rise to the top and dominate, causing speculation on their ban as well? A better question is, how do we know that the metagame couldn't have developed well enough that MetaKnight no longer seemed as broken as he does now? It's been said time and time again that Brawl is a new game and that we should let it develop. This became more evident when the SBR released version 1.0 of the tier list. Shortly after it was presented to the public, you could see the change in the metagames of a lot of characters.

Dedede. Chain Grabbing. Infinite Grab on 5 cast members. Similar logic applies. With infinite grabbing removed or limited from competitive play, does this make Dedede less of a threat to other characters? Could we have gotten by without having to have relied on banning the infinite?

We won't really know until we play the game for a bit longer. Remember, it took years for Melee to develop to the point it is at now. Ironically, while Brawl and Melee may differ so drastically both in gameplay and the view of their respective fans, perhaps it's the case that Brawl is trying to be too much like Melee. People are constantly trying to find and claim "advanced techniques", there is frequent concern about the structure and placings within the SBR's tier list, and people are busy hacking the game to make the game engine similar to Melee (Brawl+). Maybe we just need to slow down a little and play the game for a while. It's not easy for Brawl to to reach the bar of competitive play that Melee has set, nor is it possible to do at this point in time (if at all).

 

[LinIsKorean]

Good read, and it has a good message. Whether you play Brawl or Melee, you shouldn't be bashing others because they have different preferences than you do. You also shouldn't make assumptions about people playing the other game (ie. He plays Brawl, he had no skill in Melee so he switched to Brawl. NUB!) The Smash community as a whole needs to be more accepting of the fact that people will play what they want to play.

On the topic of bans, I also agree that we need to let the game develop before we do anything as rash as completely banning a character. This very well may be a future outcome, but making quick decisions without giving Brawl the developing period that Melee had is a little crazy. For now, we should just develop our character(s) metagames, we can worry about bans and chain-grabs later.

 

[ndayday]

I agree with the entire thing, except maybe the Dedede/MetaKnight thing since I honestly don't see a point in arguing it, when I can read other peoples arguments about it and draw my own conclusions.

For respecting Melee players, I believe I do that, and have never said that a particular game is bad, even though I agree 100% that Melee is a way better game competitively then Brawl is. One thing that I notice a lot is the Brawl n00bs who honestly don't know a thing about Melee, and see wavedashing as a glitch that is dumb. My respect for that person immediatly shoots down to zero, and then you see that poeple that joined in '08 are stereotyped as complete idiots. (I do admit about 1/4 of them are) I just wish people could appreciate a fellow player's game of choice, and not go into a pointless argument that is trying to be won even though a certain side is the clear victor. I also wish that SWF had a troll/n00b detector to keep them away.

Also, I think that Brawl isn't at its end of advancement in the metagame yet, but it won't take many years like Melee did. Just like you said, we should slow down and try to appreciate the game a bit, instead of trying to find some AT that will forever change Brawl. I love both games, and I want both to prosper without fights and infractions/bans. Not that it will ever happen, but hey, it's something to shoot for.

Good post.

 

[karthik_king]

Whats that supposed to mean That just because I am new here I am a nub. I actually prefer melee because I like losing to people who are better than me. Not by some random guy who uses mach tornado then planks( I can counter it now that I learned how too) I decided to have Lucas as one of my mains.

 

[Mith_]

I'd play Melee if I had the game and people to play with LOL. I think Melee is better than Brawl but I like Brawl better. Sounds ******** yes but its whatev.


As for Metaknight, if he was banned then characters with matchups worse than MK would get screwed even more. Look at Jigglypuff. If MK got banned people would turn to Snake, Falco, Game and Watch and Marth, all who screw Jiggs over.

But anyways good read

 

[SilentPinoy]

A plighted message if ever there were one. Honestly though I don't whine at all from the transition from Melee to Brawl in the sense that many do, it was just a tad disappointment that the game became itself an entirely new experience rather than a sequel in its outright from a great game. Yet it gave a new experience to the games competitive nature. Who says we floatiness and slower gameplay does not allow intense matches and unimpressive combos. Last I checked there are people developing techniques all so new and well placed for a game like Brawl such as chain-grabs, timed spikes, manipulating recoveries, and others, that would never be able to be seen in a Melee setting. This in itself will be the reason why both games will be kept up for competitive gaming rather than Melee being replaced by Brawl or vice versa.

Another point I'd like to make regards to is the banning of Metaknight as well as certain techniques. It's very true many cheap techniques are already banned from play such as infinite grab chains and stall techs, and whole heartedly am glad for it. It's not solely based on a cheap technique should a person win, but of course skill, which characters such as DeDeDe can be played to have just as much edge over any character without those tactics. As for Metaknight, I never had so much experience with him as none of my friends play a decent one. I've played maybe 2 high quality ones and it doesn't seem so justified as an arguement to say to ban him because someone is good with him. On the other-hand I have played mediocre players who have used him and still consistantly reign victorious over me (Pit user) with him. Maybe it's my bad play style or maybe it's his broken character traits. Either way it's still up for debate the banning of a character (Anti-ban btw). I can be even traced back to Melee's metagame where Marth, Falco, Fox, and Sheik dominated quite a bit. Only difference is it seemed like there was a balance and countergame played by each for each other and the variety allowed different play styles to allow variety and a better competitive outlook on Melee, in comparison to Brawl where Dedede and Snake are high class characters and seem no where near Metaknight's capabilities, clear cut frame attack priorities, speed, flight, side, and hit range. It should be like Low Tier < Mid < High < Top < MetaKnight? Just a thought.

 

[Denzi]

Nice read

 

[Cherry64]

dude, how long did that take you to type out? and I thought it was wicked. Good messages and I agree, I came from playing Melee prettyrelegiously and when I first tried brawl I hated it but now I lvoe it. not for the challenge but becasue it's a party game, I don't see this going into super tourniments like melee has and anyone that wins at this should go back to melee because that's the place to hold your rankings. Brawl should jsut be for fun and maybe a little competition between friends.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I actually think you're a very thoughtful and intelligent poster, Teh Umby, but I have to disagree with you. After a few months of just watching the community, I've declared war on Brawl, and I'm going to bash it and undermine its community every chance I get.

You said it yourself: Brawl isn't supposed to be a competitive fighter, it's a party game. So why did we allow a NON-COMPETITIVE GAME to become the standard bearer for a COMPETITIVE community?

 

[Blooqkazoo]

I actually think you're a very thoughtful and intelligent poster, Teh Umby, but I have to disagree with you. After a few months of just watching the community, I've declared war on Brawl, and I'm going to bash it and undermine its community every chance I get.

You said it yourself: Brawl isn't supposed to be a competitive fighter, it's a party game. So why did we allow a NON-COMPETITIVE GAME to become the standard bearer for a COMPETITIVE community?

*facepalm*
Honestly, Sakurai didn't necessarily intend to make Melee competitive. And I hate the negativity of you bashing Brawl.

Don't you have some other things to do?

 

[Umby]

I'd play Melee if I had the game and people to play with LOL. I think Melee is better than Brawl but I like Brawl better. Sounds ******** yes but its whatev.

I have a similar issue. I don't get to hang around good Melee players that often, yet Brawl players are so abundant, that I ended up playing Brawl more. However I like Melee more and believe it to be the better game.

I actually think you're a very thoughtful and intelligent poster, Teh Umby, but I have to disagree with you. After a few months of just watching the community, I've declared war on Brawl, and I'm going to bash it and undermine its community every chance I get.

You said it yourself: Brawl isn't supposed to be a competitive fighter, it's a party game. So why did we allow a NON-COMPETITIVE GAME to become the standard bearer for a COMPETITIVE community?

Well, you'd have to define "we" first.

If referring to those of us who were in the Melee competitive scene for a while, then there are a few reasons why Brawl is as competitive as it is right now:

1) Melee vets like Azen and M2K are active in the Brawl scene, and we all know how smash fans like and aspire to be like their veterans.

2) Precedence. When Brawl was announced to be Melee's sequel, a number of us were excited to have a new Smash game, and were planning to enter a new competitive scene in Smash. We knew there would be some changes and additions, but we at least hoped the game would be a lot more solid than it is now, given the exception gameplay achieved by Melee. By Brawl's release wheels had already been set in motion to get it's competitive scene going. With a fanbase that actually enjoy the game, stopping those wheels was near impossible.

3) The majority of the Brawl fanbase consists of those who believe the game is playable (most likely because of the characters they use or the influence they hold over the smash community) and those of the younger crowd (generally who were absent from Melee's competitive scene). The former pretty much has an amount of control over the situation while the latter will back it due to their enjoyment of the game. Then there are people like me who just enjoy playing their character or do enjoy Melee, but do better in Brawl.

As far as turning this from a party game into a competitive game, that's just us rebelling against Sakurai's intentions. That's evident in the fact that we turn items off even in Melee so that we rely more on skill even though items are a part of the game.

Also, it seems that your main issue with the community. While I like your vendetta against Brawl (it brings out points that contradict a lot of things most Brawl players try to defend), it kinda circles back to the whole "If you don't like it, don't play it" argument when it comes to the game itself. However, I sympathize with your overall problem with the community. Most discussion ends up being absolutely ******** and redundant (See SBR's Weekly Character Discussion on Sonic).

 

[Jam Stunna]

*facepalm*
Honestly, Sakurai didn't necessarily intend to make Melee competitive. And I hate the negativity of you bashing Brawl.

Don't you have some other things to do?

Nope, I'm home watching my son until I go to work, so I have plenty of time to point out just how ridiculous this game is.

Teh Umby, you're right about alot of those things, but we're not doomed to be swept away in the irresistible tide of history. Brawl had alot of momentum coming in, true, but that momentum is sustained by the people who play it. If everyone stops playing it (like Soul Calibur 3), then the problem is solved.

 

[Royale]

2) Precedence. When Brawl was announced to be Melee's sequel, a number of us were excited to have a new Smash game, and were planning to enter a new competitive scene in Smash. We knew there would be some changes and additions, but we at least hoped the game would be a lot more solid than it is now, given the exception gameplay achieved by Melee. By Brawl's release wheels had already been set in motion to get it's competitive scene going. With a fanbase that actually enjoy the game, stopping those wheels was near impossible.

I believe this is the primary problem concerning competitive melee fan base. Brawl is not a sequel to Melee in any real spiritual or literal form of the word. The Super Smash Bro.'s is a franchise. And if anyone person from melee was hoping or expecting to think brawl was going to be better, for them at least, they were dead wrong. This type of elevated thinking about brawl is causing a massive back lash as you can obviously see. While its wishful typing for me to be saying that no one should think that people of the SSB2 era shouldnt of given SSB3 so many high expectations, it was bound to happen. The end result is what you see around you OP. If people of competitive melee want to stay in their limbo forever and be non-conformist thats their decision. If they make a fuss over SSB2 vs SSB3, then it only goes to show how bitter they are over the next installment. Its their loss.

 

[Red Arremer]

I do agree with you, Umby (even though I have no preference on both games).

Despise my post count judged by join date (*ahem*) I'm a major lurker, being around here since like the end of 2005/beginning of 2006. So I hope it's okay if I post my opinion on that topic too without looking like a noob who thinks they're important or sth. D:

I personally always despised the people who come into innocent discussions about topic X and just start spitting out their despise and hatred for Brawl. It's downright annoying. I can understand if the Melee players are disappointed, but honestly, being a jerk to people who enjoy it and making it into a sort of crusade against Brawl is not how the situation should be handled.

For your question about Meta Knight: I still think the most reasonable solution would be a temporary ban. See, how the metagame resolves without MK.

My personal problem with the tierlist is that it was released far too early. The metagame wasn't able to evolve without the influence of the tier list. Too little time has passed before the tierlist could have been made with solid and many tournament results, and the exploration of ATs and counters for the whole cast.



And, as a closing word: Melee wasn't meant to be a competetive fighter, as well.

 

[Umby]

Brawl had alot of momentum coming in, true, but that momentum is sustained by the people who play it. If everyone stops playing it (like Soul Calibur 3), then the problem is solved.

Indeed, but everyone agreed that SC3 sucks, not to mention not too much changed graphically or in terms of movesets. These are not cases with Brawl, unfortunately.

 

[Backward]

I quite appreciate and enjoyed your post despite disagreeing with you on multiple accounts. It's simply that I myself, as well as many others, cannot play in such an environment where such little effort and skill is involved, and where mistakes aren't punished quite severely enough. The question most Melee people have is, where is the competitiveness in that? Smashboards is a competitive community. Or at the very least, it was supposed to be.

The frustration mostly lies in that people's attention was diverted away from Melee to a game that showed a lack of competitiveness. A game in which many rightfully thought did not deserve all the focus. Metaknight was never an issue in this matter.

Nor, now that I come to think of it, was he ever ban-worthy. Not yet, for now.

I can respect the people who try and make Brawl competitive. I myself have once hoped for something revolutionary to change the way Brawl was played months and months after its release. The truth, however, is that something is simply fundamentally wrong with the game mechanics themselves. Progressively, more and more begin to realize this. It's relatively safe to conclude that Brawl will not ever reach half the peaks Melee scaled. It is in no fault of the players nor the community. It is simply how the game itself works.

Melee turned out, if by accident, to be highly competitive; Brawl did not. I do not advocate that people entirely abandon Brawl, but the more people return to Melee, the better for the Smash community as a whole. Thankfully, it's good to see Melee is far from dying and one can only hope it picks up steam soon.

Nevertheless, insightful read.

 

[Binx]

I actually think you're a very thoughtful and intelligent poster, Teh Umby, but I have to disagree with you. After a few months of just watching the community, I've declared war on Brawl, and I'm going to bash it and undermine its community every chance I get.

You said it yourself: Brawl isn't supposed to be a competitive fighter, it's a party game. So why did we allow a NON-COMPETITIVE GAME to become the standard bearer for a COMPETITIVE community?

Because people are stupid and lazy

*facepalm*
Honestly, Sakurai didn't necessarily intend to make Melee competitive. And I hate the negativity of you bashing Brawl.

Don't you have some other things to do?

Your right, he made melee a competitive game on accident, but that didn't stop it from being very competitive and very good.

Sakurai fixed his 'mistakes' though and made sure brawl couldn't be played in a competitive way, he even created a random chance that you would fall over every time you tried to move quickly and made sure there was no option to turn it off. He made sure that the game was so slow and floaty and boring that without full items and 4 players it would be intentionally not fun to even try to play. He did everything he could so save the competitive melee scene and we still ignored him. Honestly, who's the dumb one here, Sakurai or us?

 

[Blooqkazoo]

Clearly, Sakurai did the right thing by appealing to casual players and is not that dumb, but that's off topic.

Whatever, not like I'll ever play competitively.

 

[Cherry64]

all fo you post good perspectives on this yes I agree with both sides (hypocritical I know) but now theres a party game of super smash bros and a competitive version, we all have our likes which amazingly lead to either competitive or family fun so whats the big deal? sure brawl fails tourny wise compared to melee. in any case we all have our respected games, melee didn't suffer lack of characters so why don't the competetiors play that? there are some good brawlers out there no doubt but they should transfer over to melee if tey arne't in it for the overall fun time. in my opinion anyway

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Clearly, Sakurai did the right thing by appealing to casual players and is not that dumb, but that's off topic.

Whatever, not like I'll ever play competitively.

Then why the hell do you care?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Backward]

Clearly, Sakurai did the right thing by appealing to casual players and is not that dumb, but that's off topic.

Whatever, not like I'll ever play competitively.

Melee appealed to both casuals and competitive people. Little kids could still have their FFA's without ever having to do any of the stuff we did. But when you wanted competitiveness, there it was.

Brawl could have both as well. But it messed up.

 

[Cherry64]

yeah but the little kids later got sucked into the competitive world making the game less of a game and more like a job. An awsome job but a job still that's what I think his reasoning is for screwing brawl but it did make me not wanna compete tourniment style anymore

 

[Umby]

yeah but the little kids later got sucked into the competitive world making the game less of a game and more like a job. An awsome job but a job still that's what I think his reasoning is for screwing brawl but it did make me not wanna compete tourniment style anymore

Going competitive is their own choice. No one's forcing them to become more competitive.

 

[Binx]

Cherry thats ********, you don't get sucked into competing, you choose to, you think your good so you go compete, or you want to get better so you go compete (a small minority) No one is twisting anyones arm to play melee, we realize its faster and harder and takes more skill, we realize it takes a year to really understand everything well. I don't expect these brawl scrubs to stop playing that scrubby, scrub game. Sakurai really screwed us, and for no reason, the same people would have bought the game on release.

 

[t!MmY]

I remember overhearing Variety Barrage telling someone that he didn't get 'good' at Melee until a year after he started going to tournaments. So what Binx says about that seems to be about on par what 'good' players think of how long it takes to get good at Melee.

Brawl hasn't even been out for a year, so comparing the two games in that aspect is a moot point. And calling people who are developing the techniques and meta game of Brawl 'scrubs' is in poor taste.