An Alarming Progression?

[DragonBlade]

I realize its way too soon to make generalizations about Brawl, since we only know information from the demo, but I think these issues will have to be brought up eventually, so I will try to mention them now.



Going by the "List of Advanced Techniques" thread, it seems like recoveries "automatically" grab on to the ledge (even without correct spacing). L canceling may be unnecessary now because of the "automatic" L cancel (although unconfirmed atm). It also looks like air dodging will "automatically" chose a direction for you.

If this progressed, and we imagined an extreme case. Everything would be automatic, attacking, dodging, jumping, etc. Basically, it would be a "completely automatic game" where the player would choose a character and watch the game play for him/her...

Of course, that won't happen, but it is the direction the game is heading with the recent changes. Whats stopping Smash sequels from becoming closer and closer to this "completely automatic game"? Even if Smash does not become exactly like that, it seems like too many changes toward that idea will make the game less fun to play over all. Also, part of the reason Melee seems so good is because it is far away from this "completely automatic game" by involving the player in almost every detail of the fight.

If Brawl is going to move away from this idea that defined Melee, I don't feel confidant that Brawl will be the game that we've all been waiting to play for years, and I' m worried this will have a negative effect on the community that Smash has gathered over the years. Am I worrying too much? Will Brawl really be amazing? I'm not sure anymore.

 

[Xengri]

+1 do to lag

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Are you trying to say that over time smash might just become like Pokemon stadium? Where we choose an attack and watch?

 

[Xengri]

Even If Brawl isn't like Melee, it will still be a great game. Just in it's own way.

I don't think it will be fully automated, like you're worrying about. This is Sakurai so you've got to give him a little trust.

Edit: double post ftl... stupid server lag, my bad.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

i doubt smash will progress to THAT stage, but if it did it would take take a couple of sequels to get to that. (and the average smash sequel comes every 4-5 yrs

 

[veil222]

You worry too much, we're not seeing an automation of everything, we're seeing a shift of focus, i.e. moves after up B/air dodge, and standardization of some techs to make it less about what moves all characters can do, to what YOUR character can do VERSUS what another character can do which will vary dependant on skill. Personally I think that's what smash should be about, this is looking like a very happy medium between 64 and melee.

 

[DragonBlade]

Are you trying to say that over time smash might just become like Pokemon stadium? Where we choose an attack and watch?

I mean, the Brawl changes make it look like its moving closer that concept. At some point the developers would realize that the game is starting to suck before it ever got there, I would hope.

 

[greenblob]

Actually, that's interesting. Will the Firefox automatically go for the ledge? What about the Fortress? Do you get to choose a direction?

 

[maxpower1227]

 

[_Phloat_]

The game of smash does have a lot more automatics than most fighters. Not guarding is down to one button + directions

Its how we smashers abuse these things that the developers put in for the other gamers that makes us special.

 

[moogle]

Ya know, they released Super Smash Bros IV a long time ago:
http://www.progressquest.com/

 

[Rarzy]

the whole idea of air dodging in the direction of your momentum at the time is a real cool idea i think. Common sense, does that mean the game is playing for you? NO. Do yourself a favor and try running full sprint for a few seconds, then stop. Guess what? forward momentum! Does that mean you cease controlling yourself and God controls you for those few moments? NO, just like the game isn't controlling your character when they dodge in a similar direction as where they were going in the first place. I think it has potential for fun strategies and such.

 

[specialsauce]

come on now brawl is goin to be fine, so a few techniques we are use to might be gone, outwith the old in with the new. they willbe new advanced techniques for us to master. the game looks great and will play even beter thats the main part. brawl will take just as much skill as melee if not more

 

[spikehappy07]

@maxpower1227: ^LOL! Anyways, I think you're jumping the gun a little too much. Smash is one of the greatest ideas to hit nintendo in the face, second to mario, XD. I doubt it will take that route anytime soon(more like never)

 

[red stone]

taking away direction limits its use

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

What's up with peoples lack of confidence in Brawl over a few speculations? Sure, the game may have a few things that are easy to use, but that won't make smash any less of a difficult game. Implementing easier techniques may be redundant and eliminate some of the more technical factors in the game, but there will be more technical use of the games engine due to the ease of use of said technique. I have full confidence in Brawls development, and it will be a great game despite some minor gameplay changes.

Have faith in the game and its developers.

 

[_Phloat_]

the whole idea of air dodging in the direction of your momentum at the time is a real cool idea i think. Common sense, does that mean the game is playing for you? NO. Do yourself a favor and try running full sprint for a few seconds, then stop. Guess what? forward momentum! Does that mean you cease controlling yourself and God controls you for those few moments? NO, just like the game isn't controlling your character when they dodge in a similar direction as where they were going in the first place. I think it has potential for fun strategies and such.

Try falling asleep and shooting someone into the cosmos flaming..

Yea, smash doesn't have to make a lot of sense.

Although I do agree, more physics that make sense makes games a lot better IMO, even if you can just 100 feet, the landing physics are what makes it feel awesome.

 

[veil222]

letting you use moves afterward gives it more use....

 

[altir]

brawl will be great. stop your worring.

 

[SolidSonic]

They better not appeal to newbie smash bros players to much....

 

[red stone]

They better not appeal to newbie smash bros players to much....

dude, that's what smash bros is. it's an appeal to newbie players who can't pick up a real fighter

 

[Dantarion]

They better not appeal to newbie smash bros players to much....

Or what, you aren't going to buy it?

I understand the idea of only being able to airdodge the direction you were going to travel in the first place. I can adjust to that. That is not something like "OMFG, automatic combo button in brawl! is for noobs"

There will be new advanced tactics and people will get used to it.
Just like there were people who hated the fact that L cancel doesn't completely remove landing lag in melee like it did in 64, there will be people who want to ***** about everything that changes in brawl.

DEAL with it. It is a new game. It is not melee 2.

 

[greenblob]

No WD=nothing to complain about
New gameplay mechanics=nothing to complain about
Shallow game=biggest disappointment of the year

 

[dotpwn]

melee 2 for wii on december 3rd with all characters kthx

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I realize its way too soon to make generalizations about Brawl, since we only know information from the demo, but I think these issues will have to be brought up eventually, so I will try to mention them now.



Going by the "List of Advanced Techniques" thread, it seems like recoveries "automatically" grab on to the ledge (even without correct spacing). L canceling may be unnecessary now because of the "automatic" L cancel (although unconfirmed atm). It also looks like air dodging will "automatically" chose a direction for you.

If this progressed, and we imagined an extreme case. Everything would be automatic, attacking, dodging, jumping, etc. Basically, it would be a "completely automatic game" where the player would choose a character and watch the game play for him/her...

Of course, that won't happen, but it is the direction the game is heading with the recent changes. Whats stopping Smash sequels from becoming closer and closer to this "completely automatic game"? Even if Smash does not become exactly like that, it seems like too many changes toward that idea will make the game less fun to play over all. Also, part of the reason Melee seems so good is because it is far away from this "completely automatic game" by involving the player in almost every detail of the fight.

If Brawl is going to move away from this idea that defined Melee, I don't feel confidant that Brawl will be the game that we've all been waiting to play for years, and I' m worried this will have a negative effect on the community that Smash has gathered over the years. Am I worrying too much? Will Brawl really be amazing? I'm not sure anymore.

If you keep posting stuff like this people will hate you and follow you. I suggest you just hide your identity well. Thoughts of your nature (that I agree with, but times fifty) evoke a very violent reaction amongst players who seem to view the true form of smash (utilizing all the techniques properly and having mindgames etc) as an exploitation of ''glitches'' and, the apparant difficulty of the techniques is beyond me, they involve 1-3 inputs maximum and pikachus recovery takes 4 inputs.

Many other fighting games are way more technically complex than smash aswell.

The main problem with making things automatic, is that even the best players might miss a wavedash or a tech or an L cancel at any moment, and if theres nothing to miss, theres nothing to punish. The game becomes more shallow.

Brawl will probably be really fun. I just don't see it being as vast a game as melee still is.

Do your part though, don't stop playing melee.

 

[Zek]

http://www.facepalm.org/

because one just isn't enough

 

[SSoH]

There are those who will stay behind with Melee, those who move forward with Brawl, and those who will play both. Even if Brawl sucks (which I don't think it will) you'll always have melee to fall back on. It's not like melee will become any worse in the next few years.

 

[dotpwn]

There are those who will stay behind with Melee, those who move forward with Brawl, and those who will play both. Even if Brawl sucks (which I don't think it will) you'll always have melee to fall back on. It's not like melee will become any worse in the next few years.

It will have been pretty much tapped for depth though. It still has what made us love it like anything else it will only last for so long. People hunger for snake xD

 

[Hydde]

If you keep posting stuff like this people will hate you and follow you. I suggest you just hide your identity well. Thoughts of your nature (that I agree with, but times fifty) evoke a very violent reaction amongst players who seem to view the true form of smash (utilizing all the techniques properly and having mindgames etc) as an exploitation of ''glitches'' and, the apparant difficulty of the techniques is beyond me, they involve 1-3 inputs maximum and pikachus recovery takes 4 inputs.

Many other fighting games are way more technically complex than smash aswell.

The main problem with making things automatic, is that even the best players might miss a wavedash or a tech or an L cancel at any moment, and if theres nothing to miss, theres nothing to punish. The game becomes more shallow.

Brawl will probably be really fun. I just don't see it being as vast a game as melee still is.

Do your part though, don't stop playing melee.

this post is so depressing.... but it can end up being the truth.

I knopw you are an avid fan of Melee and defend it no matter what...well with reaosn it was a good game...

you have been always reacious to the change.... but i have to admit... i dont want this change if it means all being automatic.

what will be left to master? I know this kind of techniques are not everything.. but they made a huge gab between a noob and a heavily trained player.


But, now what?

Anyways we will know with more clarity in the next 4 days what we will can be expecting of brawl.

We can just hope for the best.

 

[maxpower1227]

I really don't even know why I still come here. Since the gameplay videos came out, this ceased to be the Brawl Forum and became the Wavedashing (and other Advanced Techs) Forum. Why can't people just wait until they get their hands on the game to see for themselves what strategies they can come up with? Going over the same speculation 3000 times a week isn't going to do anything. Some people here are just WAYYYYY too obsessed with the ATs, to the point that it seems they don't even care about anything else in the game.

 

[Mama]

I really don't even know why I still come here. Since the gameplay videos came out, this ceased to be the Brawl Forum and became the Wavedashing (and other Advanced Techs) Forum. Why can't people just wait until they get their hands on the game to see for themselves what strategies they can come up with? Going over the same speculation 3000 times a week isn't going to do anything. Some people here are just WAYYYYY too obsessed with the ATs, to the point that it seems they don't even care about anything else in the game.

QFT!!

I really think you're jumping the gun here. For starters there can be no such thing as automatic L-canceling. L canceling reduced the lag. If theres little lag to begin with there isn't much to reduce therefore its simply reduced lag for aerials.

Second Air dodging wont automatically choose your direction. Thats just silly. And its also something that will be proven tomorrow so don't worry about it too much.

The ledge grabbing thing was only seen by Link so we can't be sure if its for all characters but if it is then I don't think you should worry about it too much.

Brawl is going to be a different game with different techniques to utilize and different mechanics to (for lack of a better word) exploit. We're getting many new changes yes, but for every new thing added there is something to balance it. Take sweet spotting the edge for example. Before there were a few characters that had meteor spike/smashes and you could use those attacks to edge guard a character when they get close enough. Now everyone has a meteor spike (the footstool hop) so if someone is trying to just up-b back the could be spiked for not spacing correctly.

In Melee terms the new changes may sound scary but this is not Melee. We don't know how deep this game is going to be and like someone said, Melee itself is like a shallow pond compared to other fighters like Street Fighter (but I still love it to death).

Wait until you have the game in your hands, like maxpower said. Judging the depth of a game by looking at it from the outside is simply foolish and will only cause you to panic.

 

[vinternet]

Quick notes about game design theory:
A game presents a challenge or a problem. The player has to solve that challenge, and thereby has to receive something that they consider a reward.

In the case of advanced techniques like directional airdodging, shieldgrabbing, L-cancelling, etc., these techniques require some experience with the game, good timing and reflexes, and a decent level of skill and understanding of the game. Pulling them off to good effect requires more work (button presses and thought) but also more reward - because you feel a sense of accomplishment for having pulled off a cool-looking or effective combo.

However, games can maintain their depth and fun (the rewards) while removing some of the work. You can't aim your air dodge? Some people think this means you have less strategy involved - it's true that now you can't fake people out by dodgin in the opposite direction you were moving, stuff like that.

At the same time, strategy is ADDED to the game because you need your jumps (and other new additions like Tethers and Glides) to place you exactly where you need to go - you no longer have your air dodge to fall back on. If your flight trajectory puts you in the path of a projectile, air-dodge. Your sense of reward for having corrected a mistake (jumping in the way of a missile) will be just as high as usual, because you'll say to your opponent 'Oh man, totally dodged that, and it didn't even interrupt my jump so then i jumped up and got you back. How does htat feel.'

The point is that the depth comes from how much thought people have to put into the game, not how many options they have or how many buttons they have to press. The game could have 1,000 moves for every character but be very shallow. But it ends up being so deep because every move has specific strengths and weaknesses and you need to choose the right time to use each.

 

[Mama]

Quick notes about game design theory:
A game presents a challenge or a problem. The player has to solve that challenge, and thereby has to receive something that they consider a reward.

In the case of advanced techniques like directional airdodging, shieldgrabbing, L-cancelling, etc., these techniques require some experience with the game, good timing and reflexes, and a decent level of skill and understanding of the game. Pulling them off to good effect requires more work (button presses and thought) but also more reward - because you feel a sense of accomplishment for having pulled off a cool-looking or effective combo.

However, games can maintain their depth and fun (the rewards) while removing some of the work. You can't aim your air dodge? Some people think this means you have less strategy involved - it's true that now you can't fake people out by dodgin in the opposite direction you were moving, stuff like that.

At the same time, strategy is ADDED to the game because you need your jumps (and other new additions like Tethers and Glides) to place you exactly where you need to go - you no longer have your air dodge to fall back on. If your flight trajectory puts you in the path of a projectile, air-dodge. Your sense of reward for having corrected a mistake (jumping in the way of a missile) will be just as high as usual, because you'll say to your opponent 'Oh man, totally dodged that, and it didn't even interrupt my jump so then i jumped up and got you back. How does htat feel.'

The point is that the depth comes from how much thought people have to put into the game, not how many options they have or how many buttons they have to press. The game could have 1,000 moves for every character but be very shallow. But it ends up being so deep because every move has specific strengths and weaknesses and you need to choose the right time to use each.

*Claps*
We can close the thread now. Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[Rash]

Brawl panic thread #1000. This really needs to end. It's a ****ing video game.

 

[Superstarmario]

That's some parinoia.

Automaticness is centered for noobs just like the **** system itself. It sucks I know.

 

[DragonBlade]

Quick notes about game design theory:
A game presents a challenge or a problem. The player has to solve that challenge, and thereby has to receive something that they consider a reward.

In the case of advanced techniques like directional airdodging, shieldgrabbing, L-cancelling, etc., these techniques require some experience with the game, good timing and reflexes, and a decent level of skill and understanding of the game. Pulling them off to good effect requires more work (button presses and thought) but also more reward - because you feel a sense of accomplishment for having pulled off a cool-looking or effective combo.

However, games can maintain their depth and fun (the rewards) while removing some of the work. You can't aim your air dodge? Some people think this means you have less strategy involved - it's true that now you can't fake people out by dodgin in the opposite direction you were moving, stuff like that.

At the same time, strategy is ADDED to the game because you need your jumps (and other new additions like Tethers and Glides) to place you exactly where you need to go - you no longer have your air dodge to fall back on. If your flight trajectory puts you in the path of a projectile, air-dodge. Your sense of reward for having corrected a mistake (jumping in the way of a missile) will be just as high as usual, because you'll say to your opponent 'Oh man, totally dodged that, and it didn't even interrupt my jump so then i jumped up and got you back. How does htat feel.'

The point is that the depth comes from how much thought people have to put into the game, not how many options they have or how many buttons they have to press. The game could have 1,000 moves for every character but be very shallow. But it ends up being so deep because every move has specific strengths and weaknesses and you need to choose the right time to use each.

The issue is not about removing work that gains rewards. Its about removing the available options to the player and automatizing them. It makes the game less variable and more bland.

Tethers already in Melee. In Brawl, although there seems to be more characters that utilize them, they will automatically aim toward the ledge, I don't see how you can say that strategy was added because of that. I've had many situations where it was very useful to tether lower than the ledge. Gliding doesn't exactly provide significantly more variation either. Players will just be able to fly over their opponent while recovering. I admit thats one additional option, but at the cost how many other options we've lost with the Brawl changes?

I can think about a game all day long and it does not make it any more deep. Tic Tac Toe, for example, starts with 9 possible options. No matter how much thought people put in to it, there will not a 10th option to start with.

Sure a game with 1000 options does not guarantee that it is deep, but due to the nature of smash, statistically 1000 moves have a higher chance of adding more valuable options than 100 moves. You can argue that the the 100 moves could be the 100 moves out of the 1000 moves that were good options, but that would rely on the developers to have an intimate knowledge of each move on par with professional level players, so the developers would just be able to pick out only the good parts. Under the assumption that Brawl is being made as a "party game" and designed for the "new players", this possibility seems nearly impossible.

 

[Jammer]

Even assuming the thread creator is correct about all the things Brawl will automate, the gameplay will be superb.

Pretty much, they have super duper Smash fans on the development team (like 10,000+ matches at work alone). I really don't fear them straying to far into automagical land.

Also, all the demo reviews said the gameplay was the same as Melee's, just refined. Granted, they weren't the best players, but they still didn't notice any excessive automation of the movements and attacks.

About future Smash games, what I think will happen is that they'll automate some stuff to lower complexity so they can add cool new stuff. Just like they did with Brawl.

 

[Bowser King]

Brawl panic thread #1000. This really needs to end. It's a ****ing video game.

i agree 100% its a game if it 'turns out bad'(which it wont) then just dont buy it and remember this when thousands of people are playing brawls while your sitting in a corner complaining.

 

[vinternet]

The issue is not about removing work that gains rewards. Its about removing the available options to the player and automatizing them. It makes the game less variable and more bland.

Tethers already in Melee. In Brawl, although there seems to be more characters that utilize them, they will automatically aim toward the ledge, I don't see how you can say that strategy was added because of that. I've had many situations where it was very useful to tether lower than the ledge. Gliding doesn't exactly provide significantly more variation either. Players will just be able to fly over their opponent while recovering. I admit thats one additional option, but at the cost how many other options we've lost with the Brawl changes?

I can think about a game all day long and it does not make it any more deep. Tic Tac Toe, for example, starts with 9 possible options. No matter how much thought people put in to it, there will not a 10th option to start with.

Sure a game with 1000 options does not guarantee that it is deep, but due to the nature of smash, statistically 1000 moves have a higher chance of adding more valuable options than 100 moves. You can argue that the the 100 moves could be the 100 moves out of the 1000 moves that were good options, but that would rely on the developers to have an intimate knowledge of each move on par with professional level players, so the developers would just be able to pick out only the good parts. Under the assumption that Brawl is being made as a "party game" and designed for the "new players", this possibility seems nearly impossible.

You're right in some ways - for instance if the game auto-picked a direction for FireFox (not gonna happen, just an extreme example), it would suck. You're able to strategize much more when you have the option to do it or not. In addition, having the OPTION to L-cancel makes the game more skillful - it's one more 'skill' that is gainable, therefore it is possible to become that much 'better' at the game.

My point is that there are some limitations imposed that actually make the game deeper. One such thing COULD be the air-dodge no longer being aim-able.

Also, I don't think tether recoveries have been simplified at all. You didn't used to be able to aim them at all, and stages weren't really designed with tethering in mind in Melee. Brawl seems to recognize this technique much more, with more characters having the ability (and the ability's usefulness in battle being capitalized on more).

 

[baheffron]

But it's because the "casual gamers" obviously don't know how to work a complicated game controller! This makes it more fun for them!