Amazingly usefull Lucas combo

[Runawayfire]

Its been nicknamed the "Minus combo" (Not by myself so don't jump on my *** about it...)

Here's a vid from a recent crew battle I was in, while I lose the match (Marth is gay) I still pull off the combo twice. First at 1:34, second at 3:42.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAxt0ka6XVU

Its basically just dair, dtilt, forward smash. But unlike what the guy who commented on the video says most Lucas players would know its not the dtilt tripping. While they can tech inbetween after the dair you still hit them with 20% and just go for it again. (plus people dont tend to tech this very often)

This combo is incredibly reliable and easy to set up. It starts working around 70% and up for lighter characters, and 80% and up for heavier ones. Because it also does a whopping 40% damage at least the only person I've seen ever survive it was Snake.

I think every Lucas player should start to use this as it provides a solid and much needed kill option for Lucas. Seriously..... all my kills are like either Up Smash or this combo.

 

[Irsic]

Seems pretty cool. I find little use for dtilt because of the fact that it doesn't have any hit stun, resulting in getting grabbed and f or dsmashed out of it.

 

[x9whitey9x]

I love it. It seems useful, and pretty easy to find space and time for.

 

[DKKountry]

It's a pretty good-looking combo imo. Neat.

 

[Tyr_03]

Not only is this not at all new, but you didn't even do it correctly. Both times Marth could have rolled out of those before you landed if he had reacted quickly enough. You didn't even fastfall after the Dair to give him less time. This only works at mid high percentages (somewhere between 70-90%) because otherwise they'll land standing up. If you're going to do Dtilts you might as well lead it into a Dtilt lock with it to rack up extra damage. Otherwise you're safer just doing a jab combo or stick immediately in case they tech it (which despite what your "crew" might do is extremely possible and good players will catch on.) Full hop Dair is one of Lucas's best combo moves and always has been. Your use of it was neither unique, inspired nor unusually skillful. It is not the "Minus combo" and whether you invented that term or not, perpetuating it is arrogant, scrubby and pointless.

Sorry for the flame but it was necesary. People should know this by now (I even made a guide solely devoted to Dair which mentions exactly how to do this more effectively than you just did.)

 

[Runawayfire]

^Umm, **** right off. First off how is going for the jab lock better when they're going to die without it? All that does is add extra risk because the jab lock is a lot easier to screw up than this. This combo bleeds practicality.

Second off I said clearly in my post about the percentages and when it'll work. Obviously below that percentage you just go for jabs. And of course you fastfall you douche, but you're not going to be able to do that every time, and using the dtilt allows you to connect the stick even if you screw up. Its much safer than just going for the stick.

Thirdly, stop trying to make me sound stupid, did I not say people can tech the dair? And if they tech what risk does it have on you? You dtilt air, instead of fsmashing air like your advice would be. Also, going for only the last hit of dair every time is bull****.

In summary, get off my ****. I didn't start calling it the Minus combo untill everyone else did. And guess what? thats what its called now so stfu. Stop crying because someone else is spreading knowledge and you want people to listen to you instead.

P.S: Dont flame people when you're a noob. You joined just this march and it shows. Hell you don't even understand what a crew battle is.

 

[Marceux]

Minus, when I saw the video I thought two things:

1) The "combo" is neat, it works but it has been done before. It may be called the minus combo where you're from but that's still kind of silly to apply regional vernacular to a pretty well-known string of attacks (just replace the forward smash with thirty or so more d-tilts then a forward smash.) And I KNOW you didn't name it that, but Tyr was right about you perpetuating it.

2) I liked your Lucas.

 

[Dxt XXII]

It is a good combo, and i use it a lot, but without the d-tilt.

 

[Galeon]

A couple of things.

Generally, it's true that if you get the dair --> dtilt, you usually don't have to continue the jab lock because most characters are at death percent. The thing is that it also depends on what stage you are on, what character you're fighting, your position on the stage, and what percent you got them on the ground.

For example, if you dair metaknight at 60 on the ground and get a dtilt, you can side smash him but there's a possibility of him living because you caught him at the earliest percentage where he would have to tech. The dtilt would put him at like 86'ish so why not continue to the end of the stage to guarantee the point? If anything, difficulty shouldn't be a factor in whether or not to continue (at least not with this). It's easy to do with practice. Personally, I dtilt into up smashes when I see any side of movement (depends in tournies, it's like +10 cool points though) since you know they HAVE to stand straight up after getting down tilted and you won't have to worry about your position on the stage.

Also, there are other setups to jab locks besides d-airing. If someone misses a tech from a f-air, then you can't just dtilt --> side smash. You have to take them all the way across and side smash for any hope of killing because of the percent range where they would have possibly missed the tech. Same thing goes, but to a lesser extent, for the b-air.

Next, grats on getting a name for yourself in the area ^^. It's nice to have a move named after yourself among your group of friends but I think Tyr was just trying to say that it wouldn't really be accepted as the common name on smashboards because it is pretty well known. People have already started to put their own twists on it (ending it with down-b or smiting with down smash looks awesome) and new threads come up on it every week. Personally, I've done this in tournies and try to get it done in friendlies whenever possible well before I heard of you. That's not an attack towards you but it's the way many people are going to see it.

Also, calling d-air to dtilt to f-smash a combo will probably leave a bad taste in people's mouths. One is because according to Tyr, you didn't fast fall (and yes, you can and should fast fall it EVERY time. You can even get a lock on characters like Snake by jump d-air'ing from the ledge and fast falling into a lock (helluva timing)), the guy missed his tech twice (which is fine because people do miss the tech alot), he didn't smash di behind you to at least make landing the dtilt harder and it didn't look as "skillful" (see: unnecessary) as d-tilting him across the stage.

I enjoyed the video, so congrats and keep it up. People enjoy a show though, so practice up on the dtilt locking. It's fun to do it in tournies and do it just long enough so you get people behind you saying "wtf". A reason to stop should only be because he'll die guaranteed if you smash him, not because it's harder. Practice makes perfect. And this definitely is nowhere near hard enough to take a long time to perfect.

 

[Tyr_03]

I guarantee no one with any sense in their head will call this the "Minus combo." It's something that many of us have been doing for a long time as stated by Galeon.

You sound incredibly misinformed when you say you can't fastfall it everytime because you can and should fast fall it everytime. If you fast fall full hop Dairs at the correct time, all 4 hits will come out and you will still autocancel. This saves useless airtime to make the combo work more effectively.

Doing a Dtilt everytime after this is stupid because if they tech it, the hitstun is so low on Dtilt that they will punish you. Yes it is hard to tech but people will learn and then they will kill you. Maybe you just haven't come across someone capable of it. I learned a valuable lesson from Kel that you should never assume your opponent is incapable of timing when to press the L button. It's not a good idea to give advice to people that they should depend on their opponents' failures.

I'm simply not impressed with your use of Dair. Your spacing is lacking and you could have pulled off a whole lot more than you did. I'm sorry that you think I'm a "noob." I've been lurking the boards for years and only bothered to join when Brawl was coming out. I've made several notable contributions to the developement of Lucas's metagame including several useful PK Thunder techniques and strategies as well as information on PK Fire and many of Lucas's other moves. I'd be happy to share them with you if you'd like or you can just look around here. Maybe some of them could help you. You'll notice I never tried naming any of them after myself.

Going for the fourth hit only with Dair is the safest way to do it. Although obviously it is not always ideal so you don't always have to do it. In both of your "Minus combo"s in the video, your opponent happened to be right next to you when you started your Dair. You will not always be so lucky. Your opponents will not always walk right into your attacks, especially if you're playing a character with better range than you like ROB, Toon Link etc. In these situations your best bet (and sometimes the only possibility) is to hit with the 4th hit only or the 3rd and 4th hit only. Toon Link is short enough that even with a fast falled full hop Dair you can only hit with the 4th hit. Imagine that. Bull**** I'm sure.

Frankly the way you talk makes you sound like you're about 12. If you want to argue with me atleast back it up with some kind of evidence rather than throwing out swear words and insults. I apologize for offending you but it really pisses me off when people try to name simple and well known techniques after themselves. If you and your group of friends want to call it that then go ahead by all means but this really isn't the place for it and insisting it be called that is immature and egotistical. If you have any argument whatsoever for why you shouldn't fastfall your Dairs, why it is always better to Dtilt first thing (besides "so you don't mess up." Just learn how to do it right everytime. Inconsistency is not a valid argument for something as simple as this) or why this should be called the "Minus combo", I would be happy to hear it. But since I'm doubting you do, I suggest you simply PM me with whatever insults you have and I would be happy to read them at my leisure.

I do not think you're a bad player. You're a lot better than a lot that I've seen. But you are spreading misinformation and giving inaccurate advice.

 

[Runawayfire]

A couple of things.

Generally, it's true that if you get the dair --> dtilt, you usually don't have to continue the jab lock because most characters are at death percent. The thing is that it also depends on what stage you are on, what character you're fighting, your position on the stage, and what percent you got them on the ground.

Definetly, you're going to have to calibrate depending on the situation. You've got to be aware of if you wont actually kill them of course.

For example, if you dair metaknight at 60 on the ground and get a dtilt, you can side smash him but there's a possibility of him living because you caught him at the earliest percentage where he would have to tech. The dtilt would put him at like 86'ish so why not continue to the end of the stage to guarantee the point? If anything, difficulty shouldn't be a factor in whether or not to continue (at least not with this). It's easy to do with practice. Personally, I dtilt into up smashes when I see any side of movement (depends in tournies, it's like +10 cool points though) since you know they HAVE to stand straight up after getting down tilted and you won't have to worry about your position on the stage.

Yeah, I've played around with how far things can go (as I'd assume everyone else has) and I dont see this combo as the rule of what to do. I posted this combo based on the reliability and practicality of it. Also, whats the trick for the up smash? Do you do it immediately after the dtilt or do you wait a second first? Also, does it matter if its a running one?

I guarantee no one with any sense in their head will call this the "Minus combo." It's something that many of us have been doing for a long time as stated by Galeon.

Next, grats on getting a name for yourself in the area ^^. It's nice to have a move named after yourself among your group of friends but I think Tyr was just trying to say that it wouldn't really be accepted as the common name on smashboards because it is pretty well known. People have already started to put their own twists on it (ending it with down-b or smiting with down smash looks awesome) and new threads come up on it every week. Personally, I've done this in tournies and try to get it done in friendlies whenever possible well before I heard of you. That's not an attack towards you but it's the way many people are going to see it.

Hah well I never actually assumed it'd be accepted here or in general for that matter as the name for the combo. Hell I dont actually care about that sort of thing (or I would have named it myself), Its mostly Tyr's comment and posting style that made me stress the name at all. I only expect to hear it reffered to that in my region.

I enjoyed the video, so congrats and keep it up. People enjoy a show though, so practice up on the dtilt locking. It's fun to do it in tournies and do it just long enough so you get people behind you saying "wtf". A reason to stop should only be because he'll die guaranteed if you smash him, not because it's harder. Practice makes perfect. And this definitely is nowhere near hard enough to take a long time to perfect.

Thanks for the support, cause you also know how hard it is to play and win as Lucas.

You sound incredibly misinformed when you say you can't fastfall it everytime because you can and should fast fall it everytime. If you fast fall full hop Dairs at the correct time, all 4 hits will come out and you will still autocancel. This saves useless airtime to make the combo work more effectively.

In a perfect world you will never make mistakes, but in a tournament it might just not be that way. Obviously you're going to go for the fastfall ( I mean why the hell not?) but if it doesn't come out the dtilt is going to help the stick connect... which was my whole point.

Doing a Dtilt everytime after this is stupid because if they tech it, the hitstun is so low on Dtilt that they will punish you. Yes it is hard to tech but people will learn and then they will kill you. Maybe you just haven't come across someone capable of it. I learned a valuable lesson from Kel that you should never assume your opponent is incapable of timing when to press the L button. It's not a good idea to give advice to people that they should depend on their opponents' failures.

I've already addressed this so if you're still posting back then we obviously just disagree, case closed.

In both of your "Minus combo"s in the video, your opponent happened to be right next to you when you started your Dair. You will not always be so lucky. Your opponents will not always walk right into your attacks, especially if you're playing a character with better range than you like ROB, Toon Link etc. In these situations your best bet (and sometimes the only possibility) is to hit with the 4th hit only or the 3rd and 4th hit only. Toon Link is short enough that even with a fast falled full hop Dair you can only hit with the 4th hit. Imagine that. Bull**** I'm sure.

Most often I'm doing the dair from out of shield as a counter attack, thus the opponent is right beside me, and isn't just "walking into attacks". Also, you have bad reading comprehension seeing as I said " going for the fourth hit only all the time is bull****" not that using it at all was. Calibration is obviously key, saying character specific examples doesn't prove anything for your cause.

Frankly the way you talk makes you sound like you're about 12. If you want to argue with me atleast back it up with some kind of evidence rather than throwing out swear words and insults.

This was caused by:

I apologize for offending you but it really pisses me off when people try to name simple and well known techniques after themselves. If you and your group of friends want to call it that then go ahead by all means but this really isn't the place for it and insisting it be called that is immature and egotistical

This, right off the bat you assumed I would actually try and perpetuate the name. Your posting style is extremely condescending, this is proven in the fact that you just assume me and my group of friends made it up (hell you still think I did myself) meanwhile its actually a pretty big and active tournament scene I'm a part of that inwhich the name started.

I do not think you're a bad player. You're a lot better than a lot that I've seen. But you are spreading misinformation and giving inaccurate advice.

Thanks i guess, but its only misinformation mostly by your oppinion. Which is not law.

I'm simply not impressed with your use of Dair. Your spacing is lacking and you could have pulled off a whole lot more than you did. I'm sorry that you think I'm a "noob." I've been lurking the boards for years and only bothered to join when Brawl was coming out. I've made several notable contributions to the developement of Lucas's metagame including several useful PK Thunder techniques and strategies as well as information on PK Fire and many of Lucas's other moves. I'd be happy to share them with you if you'd like or you can just look around here. Maybe some of them could help you. You'll notice I never tried naming any of them after myself.

Show my your tournament videos and then I'll pass judgement.

 

[Scarface]

In the end, Lucas lost. So why should I be impressed? lol

 

[Tyr_03]

It is misinformation. You said originally that you're not going to be able to fastfall everytime which is untrue. You can fastfall Dair literally everytime from a full hop. What's more, it is not difficult to do.
You're also saying that doing a Dtilt right after is the best way to do this combo when it is not. Rather than eliminating risk as you're saying, you're actually creating more because if the opponent techs it, you will be punished. If you simply fastfall and follow up with the stick you will hit even if they tech straight up whereas if you Dtilt and they tech, you will be punished. As I mentioned before, both times in that video the other player had time to roll away from your attacks. I can pretty much guarantee it because I've been doing this for a while. Because you didn't fastfall, you should have missed the opportunity. This is not opinion. It is fact.

You did attempt to perpetuate the name for this combo. If you had not mentioned it at all no one would care. The fact that you brought it up again just out of spite in your first post against mine doesn't say a lot for your maturity. If your friends still think you made it up they lead pretty sheltered Brawl lives.

I don't personally have time to go to tournaments. I go to Cincinnati Weeklies every tuesdays for friendlies with Overswarm, Kel, Quivo, Sliq, Dr. X, whoever's there. Your judgement means very little to me. I am not a noob. I'd money match you anytime.

 

[Runawayfire]

I still want to see your viedos, who you play on a regular basis only goes so far, considering out of who you've mentioned I've only played Sliq. My team beat his in doubles.

Plus when you say tech you're only counting standing techs and not rolling, in which case your fsmash leaves you wide open while dtilt does not.

 

[Fatmanonice]

*watches video*

I'm suddenly reminded why I infinitely prefer tournament videos that don't contain commentary... Also, why do people insist on naming combos after people? If you ask me, it's beyond ******** because it suggests that you're the only person who ever used it before it was coined. /daily rant

 

[Tyr_03]

Rolling techs take too long, they won't be able to punish. And also you can see them and techchase. Techs are slow in Brawl.

I don't have any videos up. We don't video tape many of the matches. You can see some vids of Overswarm around. He's one of the top rated ROB players in the country. I think Quivo has a few of his TL and Dr. X might have some of his Pit. Kel has a really good Metaknight you can look up but he plays a lot of characters.

 

[Galeon]

To Runawayfire: You can't dtilt --> Up smash like you can with the fsmash and dsmash (meaning smashing them before they recover from the bounce of the down tilt) but you can dtilt them, take a step forward and charge it as they stand. Let it go the second you see them begin to stand and you'll hit them with it.

And yea, Tyr_03 has contributed alot to the Lucas boards (ALOTTA stuff). So yea its probably best to end the argument since he's pretty respected around here and it'll only cause more flaming.

 

[QUIVO]

Cincinnati has good players.

That is all.

 

[Kyriel]

Lol, good intent slapped in the face by the ******* of the Lucas boards. Nice nice.

 

[chavalava84]

I noticed u didn't use d-smash alot or at all. U could of beaten him with all the spot dodging he does.

 

[IDK]

i know u said not to get on your *** about it, but my first main in brawl was lucas, which was like a week after it came out. I came up with this within that week.

 

[IDK]

To Runawayfire: You can't dtilt --> Up smash like you can with the fsmash and dsmash (meaning smashing them before they recover from the bounce of the down tilt) but you can dtilt them, take a step forward and charge it as they stand. Let it go the second you see them begin to stand and you'll hit them with it.

And yea, Tyr_03 has contributed alot to the Lucas boards (ALOTTA stuff). So yea its probably best to end the argument since he's pretty respected around here and it'll only cause more flaming.

couldn't they roll away on the stand up if you let them stand up?

 

[prOAPC]

i do it a lot of times, but my friends don't call it "APC combo"

 

[Tyr_03]

Umm actually my friends call it the Tyr combo.

That's not true, they call Thunderslide, edgecancel, Nair, Stick the Tyr combo. But whatever.

 

[Galeon]

couldn't they roll away on the stand up if you let them stand up?

not if you time it right. should already be releasing when you see any sign of movement from the ground.

 

[PK Starstorm]

the combo looked great. also, TYR can u explain the fast falling dair. i always thought that you get lag when you fast fall a dair. I usually do a rising one, then fast fall into a bair. not the best attacks, but it does rack up damage.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Full hop, initiate Dair. After you reach the peak of your jump, fast fall so that the fourth (and sometimes third) hits hit the opponent. The timing will vary between characters. It will take some time before you can consistently do it and still autocancel but it leads into great combos.