Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

[SpaceDong]

Lucas would probably be able to still make it back though, and if a Lucas is using PK Thunder chances are he's too deep for Fox to FF Fair :/ that tether saves him

 

[Top Boss]

If we manage to spike him and THEN get the footstool, he may not have the distance to recover. if he still does, then the angle will probably be really awkward.

 

[Boomstick720]

Late to this party, but might as well throw in my two cents on Shulk.

First of all, Fox used to be Shulk's worst MU by far when he still had his jab lock combo. It made the MU nigh unwinnable against great foxes, even when playing perfectly. The removal of this has shifted the MU significantly towards Shulk, but Fox still wins this MU. Here are some things to watch out for, at least in my experience.

The monado arts are the thing that will make Shulk win this MU. Do not underestimate any of them, and you need to be prepared for the little aspects of each or your uptilt to usmash combos could lead you to an early death yourself.

Jump is a tricky art for almost everyone in the cast to handle, and fox is among those who can really struggle against it, since he is a fast faller with a fairly predictable recovery. If you are airborne at all at any part of the map, get on stage and stay grounded as much as possible. Shulk's Uair is basically an aerial uSmash, and kill off the top at low percents if he catches you anywhere close to the top with it, something that is extremely easy to do with the jump art. My advice is to try to bait unsafe landings, and punish with grabs and laser. Don't try any tilt combos unless Shulk is at low percent, since Shulk's light weight makes it much easier to get out of most combos. If he is spacing you out correctly, just wait out the art, and try to bait an aggressive approach with the lasers.

Speed is a starter art that most decent Shulks will start out with, and for good reason. I've seen a lot of Foxes start out a match with a few laser shots to get on some extra damage in the beginning. DO NOT DO THIS AGAINST SHULK. It is an extremely easy punish, since Shulk can move about as fast as sonic and can easily punish a couple lasers with a grab combo. Fox typically dominates the neutral game in this MU, but the Speed art can even up this game quite a bit, and you should expect to see Shulk go for lots of grabs and pivot grabs to get lots of damage. Do not try to play aggressive against him, as Speed Shulk thrives on his opponents trying to get in his face, and being outranged. However, if you have the opportunity for a combo, do not hesitate to take it. Shulk is still combo food overall, and while his speed can improve his neutral game, it does not shift it entirely into his favor. Take is easy and be patient, and you should still beat Shulk here.

Shield is an art that a lot of Fox mains, and even a lot of Shulk mains, seem to think amounts to free damage against Shulk. I think Shield is heavily underutilized in this MU. Shield does make Shulk heavy and boosts his defense, but it also helps by making his hitstun MUCH shorter. What would be guaranteed combos at higher percents can be easily countered, and you do NOT want to eat a Vision if either Shulk or Fox is at high percents. Running grabs and lasers is tempting, but Shulk can easily just sit in shield and shrug off almost everything you throw at him from a distance, and he will often be expecting the grabs. My advice is simply to wait this art out. Its not worth putting yourself at a lot of risk to do moderate damage when you can significantly increase your chances of killing by just waiting it out.

Buster is the art that a lot of Shulk's like to use since it puts on damage so quickly, but its in this art that Fox can really destroy Shulk completely. Shulk typically won't throw on this art until he takes you out of the neutral, but if you get back in the neutral, use your speed and superior framedata to overwhelm Shulk as much as possible. Shulk may out range you, but he typically tries to play more aggressive here, so show him why this is a mistake and hit him hard with everything you've got. You'll be surprised with how much damage you can put on in such a short amount of time.

Finally, we have Smash art. There really isn't much to say about this, as the risk/ reward factor is pretty well known. Just know that Shulk can kill with almost all his tilts at high percents with this art on, so don't be too hasty about challenging it.

Overall, I'd say this MU is still in Fox's favor- 60:40.

 

[DavemanCozy]

70-30 Ryu I 2-stocked an Ontario ranked player in the matchup just 'cause of how good it is for Ryu. Experience always does the talking for me.

"Experience" is not 7:3 without proper explanation of the MU. That's the equivalent of saying ZSS vs Mario is 7:3 for ZSS just because V115 beat Ally at EXP.

 

[SpaceDong]

yeah but being real i'd never fight a ryu as fox lol.

 

[EPM]

That's why I got those pocket Villager, Alph and Robin for

 

[CHOMPY]

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Fox MU, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our Pit matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...ght-fox-bowser-jr.414936/page-5#post-20525370

 

[M@v]

I think it would be a good idea to look at kirby when we switch to the new set of characters. He got a LOT of buffs, and I'm seriously wondering if Kirby beats Fox now. I had a rough time dealing with a pocket Kirby this weekend. He's one of Ohio's best and didn't go Kirby until I shut down his mains. Kirby kills soooooooo early now with Upthrow, and he also has faster movement speed and increased hitstun on his fair, among other minor changes.

 

[Top Boss]

Lucas got more lame from this patch, so maybe that matchup is closer to even as well.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think it would be a good idea to look at kirby when we switch to the new set of characters. He got a LOT of buffs, and I'm seriously wondering if Kirby beats Fox now. I had a rough time dealing with a pocket Kirby this weekend. He's one Ohio's best and didn't go Kirby until I shut down his mains. Kirby kills soooooooo early now with Upthrow, and he also has faster movement speed and increased hitstun on his fair, among other minor changes.

Yeah I agree. Kirby got the most benefits out of all the cast, along with Bowser. Holy crap, Bowser's U-throw is so so stupid now, he still has trouble catching Fox but if he does it's not fun.
(edit: congrats on the backroom Mav)
(edit again: sorry for being absent so long, Uni exam-life x_x)

I'm going to throw in discussion for Ganondorf too:

vs
vs (buffed)
vs (buffed)

EDIT again lol: one of the players in my region has been improving greatly, and my matches with him have gotten closer since he got off Pit and went Robin for the matchup. It can truly be miserable to be on the ledge against Arcfire and my god that Levin Sword hits hard. I think we should review this MU again when we get the chance. I remember you said Fox lost to Robin a while ago, I believe that more now

 

[M@v]

Alright, from what I noticed this weekend, Kirby is a lot harder now. I thought pre-patch Kirby was a so-so matchup for fox, being even, and maybe even fox losing on some stages. All of the things that he had pre-patch on Fox are still there, inlcluding:

-Great combos on Fox
-Dair completely wrecking Fox's recovery and being near unpunishable.
-Being able to completely shut down Fox camping with his crouch.

Before I continue, here is the list of changes Kirby got, taken from the patch thread:

• Ground run speed increased
• F-Smash (all angles)
  • Early Hit KBG 99 -> 100
  • Late Hit KBG 66 -> 67
• U-Smash
  • Early Hit KBG 102 -> 103
  • Middle Hit KBG 96 -> 97
  • Late hit KBG 50 -> 51
• D-Smash
  • KBG 108 -> 109
• Fair
  • Hit 3 KBG 145 -> 148
  • Hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 1.2x
• Bair
  • Early Hit KBG 102 -> 104
  • Late Hit KBG 110 -> 112
• U-throw
  • KBG 63 -> 74
• Side Special 1 partial charge
  • KBG 70 -> 76
  • Aerial hitbox 0 (both hits) size 5.2 -> 5.4
  • Aerial hitbox 1 (both hits) size 3.0 -> 3.2
  • Both sets of hitboxes active for 1.0 -> 2.0 frames
• Side Special 1 aerial max charge
  • KBG 70 -> 76
  • Aerial hitbox 0 (both hits) size 5.4 -> 5.6
  • Aerial hitbox 1 (both hits) size 3.5 -> 3.7
  • Both sets of hitboxes active for 1.0 -> 2.0 frames
• Side Special 2 partial charge, 1/3 max charge
  • KBG 70 -> 76
• Side Special 2 aerial
  • KBG 100 -> 110
  • Hitbox 0 (both hits) size 5.2 -> 5.4
  • Hitbox 1 (both hits) size 3.0 -> 3.2
  • Both sets of hitboxes active for 1.0 -> 2.0 frames
• Side Special 3 partial charge
  • Aerial KBG 70 -> 76
  • Hitbox 0 (both hits) size 6.3 -> 6.5
  • Hitbox 1 (both hits) size 3.0 -> 3.2
• Side Special 3 max charge
  • Aerial KBG 70 -> 76
  • Hitbox 0 size 6.0 -> 6.2
  • Hitbox 1 size 3.0 -> 3.2

As you can see, there are a ton of knockback growth buffs in there. The buffs kirby got allow him to close distance quicker since he has faster running speed, and it makes approaching him much more dangerous. Increased hitstun on fair means he's going to be throwing them out more neutral, and that if you run into one he has more followups. Lastly, and probably most scary, Kirby has a powerful kill throw now, probably top 5 in the game. It has a huge increase in KGB from 63-74. Thats a ~17% increase in KGB. Be very wary of platform stages now vs him, especially Town and City, Halberd, and Delfino. Watch for the tree on Duck Hunt as well.

Granted, Kirby will need to play really, REALLY lame to win, but at the same time you will too, as its not safe to approach him most of the time. Expect this to be one of the least enjoyable matchups to play as Fox. There's a good chance you will be pushing the time barrier a lot of the times. None of the matches I won as Fox vs Kirby this weekend were fast. I was camping my rear off.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Just one quick question. When you say you were camping out the Kirby, how did you camp him out if he could just crouch your lasers? Did you just refuse to stop shooting until he moved?

 

[G-Sword]

Just one quick question. When you say you were camping out the Kirby, how did you camp him out if he could just crouch your lasers? Did you just refuse to stop shooting until he moved?

It's basically. Forcing the kirby move and pop lasers at him. U get close but can still keep distance and pop lasers when u have opening. People under rate lasers. They are useful u need to know when to use them and when not to. But they need to be mixed up in gameplay

Alright, from what I noticed this weekend, Kirby is a lot harder now. I thought pre-patch Kirby was a so-so matchup for fox, being even, and maybe even fox losing on some stages. All of the things that he had pre-patch on Fox are still there, inlcluding:

-Great combos on Fox
-Dair completely wrecking Fox's recovery and being near unpunishable.
-Being able to completely shut down Fox camping with his crouch.

Before I continue, here is the list of changes Kirby got, taken from the patch thread:


As you can see, there are a ton of knockback growth buffs in there. The buffs kirby got allow him to close distance quicker since he has faster running speed, and it makes approaching him much more dangerous. Increased hitstun on fair means he's going to be throwing them out more neutral, and that if you run into one he has more followups. Lastly, and probably most scary, Kirby has a powerful kill throw now, probably top 5 in the game. It has a huge increase in KGB from 63-74. Thats a ~17% increase in KGB. Be very wary of platform stages now vs him, especially Town and City, Halberd, and Delfino. Watch for the tree on Duck Hunt as well.

Granted, Kirby will need to play really, REALLY lame to win, but at the same time you will too, as its not safe to approach him most of the time. Expect this to be one of the least enjoyable matchups to play as Fox. There's a good chance you will be pushing the time barrier a lot of the times. None of the matches I won as Fox vs Kirby this weekend were fast. I was camping my rear off.

I really don't have a problem with approaching Kirby. Think its in fox's favor but of course it depends on how ur play style is with fox. Just don't be predictable. Don't get caught in his dair+any move combos. And if u are at low %s stay away from his utilt. Use speed and agility to maneuver around him and have to be smart about punishes. don't jump up in the air if u know he is gonna hit u. The lasers are great against Kirby

 

[M@v]

Just one quick question. When you say you were camping out the Kirby, how did you camp him out if he could just crouch your lasers? Did you just refuse to stop shooting until he moved?

I had the % lead. In theory, if he has the percent lead there's nothing you can do really except try to drop off stage and shoot a laser along the ground (if it even reaches). Otherwise you're forced to approach. Maybe not immediately, but you will have to eventually. Camping doesn't necessarily equate to shooting lasers either. It also means refusing to engage them and moving around them/playing keep away, trying to bait an approach.

Players need to realize you can pressure opponents without throwing out any sort of attack.

 

[Sword Legion]

Fox and Ganon. I can't say I've ever had any sincere problems against the armored warlock, but my bro only uses him as a secondary.

From what I observe on the matchup:

1. Lasers are great. Ganon's slow, and tall. nuff said.

2. Don't get too eager to rush in, and respect the range. Fox is fast enough to punish most anything the Great King of Evil can dish out, but don't get so impatient that you get hit instead by say Upsmash. (Moving in with a dair can be a nice punish because of the lower disjoint)

3. Look to land Bair off stage, but keep safety in mind enough to avoid Ganon's flame choke. With practice you should be able to jump off stage, and use your double jump at the right time to come up and hit him without offering such an opportunity.

4. Don't engage directly, seek to punish Ganon. Especially in the air, where many of his moves will out range Fox's. Camping and using lasers are a great idea- if you don't overdo it.

That's it from my end. Kirby now is going to take some time to analyze. . . as is Bowser.

 

[Watermarlon]

OKAY BOWSER

My practice partner mains Bowser, so I have a bit of experience, but he's the only bowser I play and we haven't played terribly much since the latest patch so I guess I can give general advice.

The main thing you need to watch out for is the obvious fact that Bowser can kill fox early. The Bowser is most likely going to get most of his kills from edgegaurds, so mix up your recovery.(except with the patch he can kill us easier with grab, ofc)Bowser can be combo food for us. Juggling him with up airs work BUT be careful for his dair, because if you don't you can die when you jump up for the uair. As for play in the neutral, I find that running around and waiting for him to do something and then punish that something works best. His attacks are slow, so he requires reads, so he may end up throwing out attacks and then you can run in and punish. Analyze what the bowser is doing and act accordingly. As for a ratio, I'd guess 60:40

 

[Top Boss]

Fox vs Ganondorf can be pretty scary. Make sure to do some of this:
*Shoot plenty of lasers
*recover VERY safely(ganondorf has a great offstage game).
*Bait and punish(usually with up throw/tilt or dash attack).
*pressure his shield with well spaced back airs and up tilts).
*DO NOT GO OFFSTAGE
*respect ganondorf's power.
etc

 

[Bijan]

I'm mostly a Melee Fox and I have a lot of experience with Fox Puff in Melee and when I apply that to Fox Kirby in Smash 4 it's really helpful. I just keep space on Kirby with some of Fox's more ranged moves and then capitalize on Kirby's weight for the kill. Up-air is my best friend in the Kirby matchup. Might not work for everyone but as someone with Puff MU experience from Melee applying it to Smash 4's Kirby MU works very well for me. So in my opinion I think the MU is 60-40 Fox.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

With my findings concerning the Bowser matchup, he's not simply combo food. He's a combo buffet. I can't think of a character easier to combo in the game, and couple Bowser's large size with Fox's great combo options, Fox is set to go on offense. Fox can also camp with lasers, which is nice for putting on quick damage. It's not completely easy though, since Bowser can KO Fox early, and his ground moves have range.

The Koopa's moves are slow, so the punish game isn't overly hard. On the downside, Bowser can punish Fox's recovery due to predictability. It's vital to have some sort of recovery mix-up.

This isn't a near unloseable matchup, but it's totally in our favor, mainly due to the ability to combo and laser camp with ease. I'd say the ratio is 60:40 in Fox's favor.

 

[EPM]

I lost to a Ganondorf in tournament the other day. I had some johns, I felt very nauseous and was not playing well at all from that, plus it was straight up my first playing a Ganon in bracket.
Obviously the matchup is in our favor, I don't think there's a big/heavy that's not true of. But there are things to look out for, definitely.
-I actually don't know the timing on the tech myself and have to lab it, but side b to f tilt is a kill combo if you don't tech it, so learn to tech it.
-if Ganon manages to take the first stock, he'll be fishing for the side b off stage. It's got decent range actually so I'd suggest just keeping stage control in the middle of the stage and not going for edgeguards. Edgeguard away if you're a stock up, but as Fox we should win neutral in this MU almost every time so there's no reason to feel like we have to keep him off stage.
-Final Destination is the stage for this MU, and possibly Duck Hunt if FD gets banned. The space is really helpful for laser camping and Battlefield benefits Ganon because he can actually put on good pressure and make it hard to get down if you're stuck on the platforms.
-Ganon's kills are more likely to come in the side blast zones (unless you run into an up smash) so town and city os a great pick too. Don't settle for smashville in the striking process.
-idk about all Ganons but this particular Ganon was a huge fan of short hop bairs to keep away my approach. No reason not to keep lasering there but if you do feel the need to run up and do something, be careful how you time dash attack, and RAR Bair or short hop nair are good options. Pivot f tilt to u tilt is great too.

 

[EPM]

For the record, I beat him in a money match after I had started to feel better.
A couple other things:
-down b from the air will break your shield, just don't stand under him and shield. If he's in the air you should be up airing him anyway.
-Everyone should know by now that Ganon's up smash is near impossible to punish, however, Ganon mains seem to think that it's still an effective way to bait you into running into a different attack, so I found that pretending I was gonna run in after the up smash and then waiting for the subsequent f tilt or d tilt and punishing THAT was much more effective
- f tilt out of shield was a favorite option of the particular Ganon I was fighting for ending my shield pressure. It was pretty effective, though I was admittedly being unsafe against his shield. In general, grabs are a good option for this matchup. His size and weight make getting followups easier off of them and he's easy to juggle so up throw is a solid choice, plus we want to be taking stage control from him all the time.
- not ever going offstage is a good general rule but if you have the stock lead and can reliably tech the up b, I don't think it's a horrible idea to go for the rare Fair spike. What's likely to happen if you miss though is he will grab the ledge and then drop off dair you while you try to up b.

 

[KidSchadow]

I have a friend who has played little mac and ganon against me as his go to friendlies characters, and I'd honestly say ganons recovery is worse than lil macs. Once you convince ganon that using up b to recover bellow the stage is a good idea, he's toast because up b doesnt really cover above him. If it's clear that his side b is no longer and option to recover, dropping down above ganon with a move that sends him away from the stage will almost always finish him.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I have a friend who has played little mac and ganon against me as his go to friendlies characters, and I'd honestly say ganons recovery is worse than lil macs. Once you convince ganon that using up b to recover bellow the stage is a good idea, he's toast because up b doesnt really cover above him. If it's clear that his side b is no longer and option to recover, dropping down above ganon with a move that sends him away from the stage will almost always finish him.

Specify please; what move would you use? where would you hit Ganon?

Fox falls like a brick and gets edgeguarded harder, the risk - reward is often not worth going offstage on most characters, and you have to be wary of missing Ganon and letting him recovery while you remain offstage, now below the ledge and having to worry about a D-air stomp to intercept a Fire Fox. Ganon has his Up-air to cover himself offstage, since the hitbox is a wide arc. The later hitbox of Up-B also covers him, and if you get grabbed near the ledge by first hitbox, you run the risk of getting stage-spiked.

Fox is usually better off pressuring the ledge and covering getup options to force the opponent back offstage; What Ganon has for him in this mu is that Fox has to be a lot more careful of how he moves near the ledge, because one side-b command grab is going to end our stock regardless of % lead and reset the match. The only reason you should get grabbed by side-b on purpose is if you have the stock lead.

I highly question that Ganons recovery is worse than Little Mac's. Ganon has meaty hitboxes to cover himself while falling back and Side-B which makes it risky to go offstage or stay near the ledge. Little Mac only has side-B and his counter, both which are risky for him, and he has no aerials to protect himself. Little Mac's Up-B doesn't snap the ledge either, so unless he spaces it properly, Fox can shield all the hits and then hit him with D-smash or U-tilt > B-air before he even grabs the ledge

Just as with Bowser, the Ganon matchup is in Fox's favor. He overall has the advantage in mobility, offensive pressure, and is particularly good at abusing their weights. What keeps these mus from being free is the advantage of KO power the heavies have and how brutal it is on Fox to make a mistake.

 

[pitfall356]

The Bowser-Fox MU is much more manageable for Bowser now that he has his uthrow, which compliments his incredible pivot grab. It's important now more than ever to not let Bowser get in on you, because if he does, it's going to hurt.. A lot.

Bowser is read-based, yes, but he's also a heavy punisher. Don't throw out anything that isn't safe, unless it's fast (making it hard to react to), or a mixup that would be hard to expect. I find it very easy to punish side B if I shield it at about half distance, so if you're going to side B, make sure it's close enough that Bowser can't run to your endpoint, but far enough away that he can't knock you out with a jab or ftilt.

Bowser's hard landing lag and high jumpsquat frames means he has a hard time leaving the ground, so he's less inclined to go for his aerials. Of course, there's always a reason to move to the air, but Bowser will be safer on the ground. If you can hit Bowser with fast attacks that pop him into the air only a little bit, you can combo him very hard, since he'll be forced to suffer his hard landing lag (a whopping 8 frames). Jab1+2 into itself a few times then go for a grab if you want something guaranteed at mid to high percent.

Finally, to throw out some general tips:
Remember that Bowser has a very fast ground run speed, so it's not as safe as you think to laser camp unless you're only throwing out one or two at a time.
His pivot grab is huge, so be aware that he can grab you from pretty far away.
He has a command grab, which he can use to snatch your shield off the ledge.
Bait and punish! Don't stale out your strongest kill moves at mid to high %. The last thing you want is a Bowser at 200. Use them as punishes at low %, so that they unstale when you need them most.
Bowser has a strong ledgeguard game, so make sure you're mixing up your recovery.
That said, don't try to recover just above or into Bowser using side B. It's an easy move to catch with usmash, which usually kills.
Don't let him grab you. Just, at all.

That's all I can think of right now. I'm not knowledgeable with Fox but I've fought a lot of them so these are the things I notice the most. I think this MU is in Fox's favor simply because Fox is faster and can really combo Bowser. I can't tell how much so, but the MU is close. Maybe 60:40? 55:45?

 

[Abbey Street]

Ganon main reporting in. I'll drop some tips that Fox mains can use to approach this deceptively tricky matchup.

• Lasers.
• You can't play a keepaway game against Ganon forever - you will have to approach him eventually. This is why a bait and punish playstyle is super important. Lots of empty jumps, pivots, and fake-outs will draw a punishable move out of him eventually.
• A lot of Fox players think that FD is a great stage for this matchup because of easier punishes and Ganon's lack of platforms. However this is not the case. You want platforms to nab earlier kills, esp on low ceiling stages such as DL and T&C. It also restricts your movement options to move around Ganon's hitboxes. Since most of the time you will be killing Ganon off the top, it's important that you find whatever way you can to mitigate his weight advantage, and that's where platforms can be super helpful. This applies to Duck Hunt as well, although at least some environmental aspects help you out here.
• Fox's Side B recovery is stopped by a N-air, especially after the N-air's rework. Don't use it to get back onto the stage or straight into the ledge, if Ganon can get over in time to hit you with it.
• Do not go offstage against Ganon. You have a great onstage game, and trying to kill him super early via gimp poses a very large risk when contending against his aerials. So just stick to your game. Eventually an opportunity to punish and close out a stock will present itself.
• Practice teching choke whenever you can, because this is super vital to the matchup (choke combos into D-tilt or F-tilt, both of which can kill under 100 without rage, if you can't tech). Also, if you press your shield button while being held up by Flame Choke, you will be unable to tech it.
• Ganon's forward smash outprioritizes Fox's entire moveset (except U-smash) when fresh.
• Also, since I mentioned shields, you don't wanna overuse yours. He does lotsa shield damage. You can spotdodge a lot of his moves effectively though, and promptly punish.
• Never underestimate the range on Ganon's D-tilt. It reaches really far. Past his knee, it becomes safe on shield.
• And last thing, although it can be tempting, never use your getup attack! Ganon can easily punish it and kill you at 50-ish, so mix up your wakeup options!

All in all this isn't exactly a dream matchup for Fox by any stretch, but it's actually pretty fun for both sides, being a battle of intellect. Your speed, his power. Best of luck to y'all.

Overall rating of matchup: Was a clear 55:45 in patch 1.1.1. Ganon's buffs in 1.1.3 were fairly beneficial to this matchup, so a case could be made for this MU being even. Idk, haven't played many Foxes since the patch. It's a really interesting MU nonetheless.

 

[Theosmeo]

I think fox wins, but Ganon has fun tricks. BTW learn how to tech flamechoke because as a fastfaller who gets hit by dtilt as a choke follow up, he's susceptible to Flamechoke > dtilt > flamechoke > dtilt which is a LOT of damage.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Teching Ganon's Side-B has odd timing, so yes practicing the tech is vital. Did not know you were unable to tech if you pressed it while being held up though, that's really interesting.

6:4 for Fox sounds about right to me for both matchups, Ganon and Bowser. Not matchups Fox would theoretically lose, but in application the power these two characters have can quickly overwhelm Fox for making a wrong move

I dunno about Kirby mu much, I've only ever fought TanTaco in Toronto and that was before the patch. It is a huge battle of patience for both sides since neither has any incentive to approach nor force one. Before the patch I thought Fox won, now with the slight speed increase and throw combos Kirby got I think it's closer to even.

 

[Xinc]

Ganon vs Fox is a vey precarious matchup. Prior to the patch, it was definitely in Fox's favor, though not by much. Fox's good onstage game allows him to play Keepaway and bait + punish well. You should be relying on that, and not running into Ganon's shield, where he gets a lot of interesting throw followups on you.

That being said, playing keep away isn't always great, especially if you're spamming lasers. The thing is, even the weakest hit from Ganon is equal to 4-8 laser equivalents.

Fox can juggle Ganon well, thanks to his heavy weight AND slow air speed. He can trap Ganon on platforms and kill even earlier. However, when grounded, Fox should be wary about how he goes about an attack if he is going to, as many of Ganon's attacks outrange Fox's, despite being slower.

Offstage, Ganon clearly wins. He can intercept Fox's side B and down b with pretty much all his aerials, and Wizkick to boot, if your timing's good enough.

I dunno about the matchup. At best for Ganon (aka worst for Fox) it's even, but it seems to be oscillating a bit more to a 55-45 Fox MU.

 

[EPM]

I was playing like booty last night and getting read like a book but you can catch me getting bopped by the same Ganon I was talking about last week here at 1:12:30.
http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/v/36470025

A couple interesting things in this video:
-Ganon's grab range is good enough that he can grab you out of what you think is a perfectly safe short hop bair if he perfect shields it.
-I missed many opportunities to land up airs out of dash attacks. Don't be like me.
-You probably wanna opt for normal get up at the ledge most of the time if you're getting edge guarded. I lost my first stock in an instant in this set because he read my jump, and I fell for it again in my second stock at a lower percent.
-sometimes it might be a good idea to wait on the ground to see what kind of tech chase Ganon will go for. You REALLY don't want him reading you.
-hopping a lot is good for landing an aerial with a fast fall quickly when you see an opening but don't leave yourself open to his superior air priority and get uaired or naired

 

[Theosmeo]

-Ganon's grab range is good enough...

LOL@Ganon having good grab range.
You're right though, shield grabbing Bair is a thing because Ganon doesn't slide in shield much.

BTW SH Nair on shield > grab > profit is super free on Ganon. And if we don't shield it we get wrecked by perfect pivot in utilt which Ganon has no escape from.

 

[DavemanCozy]

EPM any attack in general getting perfect shielded is usually not safe. You did the same thing to the Ganon, you perfect shielded his D-air stomp on game 2 at 01:15:47 and u-tilted out of shield. That move normally has really high amounts of shield stun, but the perfect shield made it unsafe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon vs Fox is like 55/45 Fox's favor. Ultimately while Fox forces Ganon to approach, he has to be pretty respectful of Ganon's midrange options.

Ganon outranges Fox by a hefty margin, especially with his strong and pretty fast DA and Dtilt, meaning in general Fox can't afford to actually directly challenge Ganon's hitboxes, especially considering how light he is. Dthrow DA also combos on Fox for quite a while, and on a read, Nair can be a devastatingly strong edgeguard on Fox's recovery. Fox's sorta mediocre horizontal air speed works to Ganon's advantage when juggling, as Fox generally can't abuse Ganon's blind spots with fullhop that effectively.

That being said, Fox juggles Ganon well, and it is sometimes very difficult for Ganon to consistently punish Fox on shield if the Fox is clever about Bair and Jab pressure. However given Fox has trouble exploiting Ganon's recovery easily, and due to Ganon's low ledge hang giving him many options to deal with Fox's ledge pressure, he has to generally kill Ganon directly. My experience is that in real games, Ganon will also typically survive true combos into Usmash due to his weight.

Mostly while Ganon does have to work harder to catch Fox in the first place, it's ultimately a pretty fair matchup for the large part.

 

[TimG57867]

Ah the Fox matchup. Prior to the patch, we Kirby's generally agreed that it was even because even though Kirby could juggle Fox like crazy, his lack of safe and effective kill options meant that Fox would have the chance to use his speed to bring it back. Now with this 1.1.3 patch however, Kirby got both a speed buff which makes getting punishes easier and a proper kill throw in Up Throw that kills Fox on Final Destination at 132% with no DI. (Proper DI generally increases the survival % by about 10.) I think this has tipped the matchup back in Kirby's favor like it was in Brawl albiet not by a landslide.Kirby has all the same strengths as before. His damage racking ability means he can get Fox rather close to death percent pretty quick and his crouch significantly reduces the effectiveness of Fox's lasers, especially if he has a percent lead, and when Kirby's crouching Fox has to beware his speedy D-Tilt and Up Tilt, the latter of which is invincible. At 0%, Kirby's combos and strings can take Fox to as high as 74% if done right (on average though you'll probably end up with 35-50%). And if Fox has to Up B in a bad spot that's pretty much Kirby's invitation to D-Air spike him and Fox can't do as much to Kirby off stage due to his fall speed and Kirby's multiple jumps.

Of course Fox still has his blitzing his speed and side B to help him control and reset neutral when necessary, but Kirby cannot be rushed down. And now that Kirby can kill off a grab, he has to be even more careful when he's death percent than before, especially if he's on a stage with platforms which magnifies Up Throw's power. And while Kirby’s Up Throw can kill, none of Fox’s can nor do they properly set up into a kill move so Kirby’s shield is generally better in this matchup now.

For how Kirby should play it, Kirby should not force anything. Kirby should use his crouch to sneak in and find the opportunity to get a good juggle started on Fox. Up Tilt should almost be how your combo starts as Fox falls so fast that he’ll be able to hit the ground and shield before you can get any followups on him a 0% off F-Throw. Combos do start working at a 10-20% though. After Kirby gets his combo, he should abuse his crouch to force Fox to come in and get further punishes until Fox enters death percent. Kirby should do his best to keep his percent lead if he gets it as being able to crouch lasers means Fox can’t camp him to bring it back safely if he falls behind. D-Tilt and Up Tilt are your main options for stopping dash attacks and dash grabs. Up Tilt is especially good as it’s disjointed and sets up into Up Airs. If Fox tries jumping in with aerial, you might be able to snuff him with a well placed Up Tilt. Alternatively, if you think it’s safe, you can spot dodge, shield, or roll and punish accordingly. Keep in mind that might sometimes bluff when short hopping and can punish you if you make the wrong call. Kirby should refrain from using smash attacks unless he’s certain they’ll hit. Fox is fast with good frame data all around, including his own smash attacks and he’ll be more than happy to punish you if you whiff. And speaking of smashes, don’t ever bother trying D-Air -> D-Smash. Fox falls way too fast for the D-Smash to come out on time. As far as killing, Kirby has gimping and Up Throw. If Fox is at a height to side B to the ledge you probably won’t be able to cut him unless you get out a well timed D-Air or B-Air. N-Air can also work but the end lag makes it risky to use off stage. You can also go for a ledge trump B-Air if you read the ledge grab. If Fox is forced to Up B, he’s pretty much done if you’re on top of things. D-Air is prime way of ending him he has to Up B. You might have to D-Air him twice depending on positioning as Fire Fox’s hitboxes can prevent you from getting a solid it and it scales stages well. If you want to kill in neutral, Up Throw is your new go-to option. With the speed buff, getting grab shouldn’t be overwhelming difficult now provided you maintain a percent lead. Anticipate what he’ll do and grab accordingly. With optimal DI, FD height, and no rage, Fox will probably live to about 142% so study your situation and choose the right time to go for the Up Throw. The major things you have to watch out for at kill percent are Fox’s Up Air and Up Smash. Fox’s Dash Attack, Up Tilt, and Side B will setup into the Up Tilt at higher percent. Don’t know if there’s any true combo percents to beware. You also have to be weary of D-Air as it sets up in Up Smash. Lastly for Inhale, eh. I suppose you could take Fox’s lasers to tack on extra percent when the chance presents itself but you can’t use them freely has Fox has a reflector and too many careless shots will lead to a load of percent. Inhale can also be good for getting Fox off stage. I personally don’t copy Fox much but I tend to see top Kirby’s copy him surprisingly often so perhaps you can get use out of it.

As for what Fox should do, he should pretty much play it as he should before. Just even more carefully at death percent as Kirby can actually kill him off a grab now which is harder to punish that a whiffed Smash Attack. Generally, Fox should not rush in. If you allow Kirby to get an Up Tilt on you before putting any percent on him, you’ll pretty much be forced to approach as Kirby will simply crouch if you try lasers. That said, lasers aren’t completely useless. Kirby can’t crawl so you’ll probably be able to squeeze a few in here and there, and if you are able to prevent Kirby from getting a solid lead, you’ll be able to use them to rack up percent as he’s forced to come in. Be careful when pressuring Kirby’s shield. From the front, you want to be on point with your spacing as a shield grab at death percent now means a stock taken courtesy of Up Throw. The back might actually be riskier as Kirby’s B-Air comes out pretty fast.

Having glanced thread, I noticed some of you think Fox has the edge. I personally think this matchup lends to Kirby. This matchup gets very campy and it’s a true test of patience, but after this patch I think Kirby gets rewarded more for his patience now. And at the competitive level, MikeKirby has been able to consistently beat Larry Lurr’s Fox and this was before Kirby could kill off a grab effectively. And I am pretty sure this was the matchup at work because Larry Lurr beat Mike pretty handily with a pocket Mario. Granted, Fox is far from free, but I think Kirby does have an advantage now. I don’t feel comfortable tossing out a ratio though.

Sets of Interest:

Pre-1.1.3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CCw8yMAKG0 (Poyo vs. Snow)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeVtetE_IyU (Larry Lurr vs. Mike Kirby customs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toe49Xn5jfc (Poyo vs. Feel Tension customs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkjGBJ3-FAQ (MikeKirby vs Dugan)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIdXKhNucg (Triple R vs. Dawn4thekaz)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpFngP4crqI (Prince Kirby vs/ Dawn4thekaz)

1.1.3

 

[Zigsta]

Weighing in on the Bowser-Fox MU a bit here since Larry and I play together--

It's a tricky MU for Bowser that's not quite as hard thanks to the buff. Fox excels at juggling Bowser and keeping him in the air. The trick is literally just upthrowing Bowser. Fox is one of the hardest characters in the game for Bowser to return the ground when he's being juggled.

That said, if Bowser does hit the ground--and this is something Larry and I both agree on--Bowser is never, ever out of this MU. If Fox can't get the kill, he's in increasingly dangerous territory.

With the buff, Fox mains should be even more hesitant about throwing out dairs and nairs against a grounded Bowser. Pivot grab has always secretly been an absolute godsend to Bowser in this game, and the buff turns that godsend into a very easy kill confirm.

I think it's still a -2 MU for Bowser. It's nowhere near as frustrating as Sheik or ZSS, but it's noticeably harder than Mario, for example.

 

[BrickBot]

Fox vs Bowser

From my experience online and against my friends, this is a really easy matchup for fox. Even with the Bow-Wow combo bowser just gets juggled too hard to make up the percent. So long as fox keeps an eye on bowser's down b, (which have killed me several times at embarrassingly low percent when i go for an up air near the ceiling) then fox should have no problem racking up percent.
Mu 80:20 fox's favor

Fox vs Ganon

In this matchup fox really has to respect ganon's baits. Fox has to squeeze as much percent out of every hit confirm because ganon can make up the percent in one or two hits. Add on top of that, ganon's powerful smashs that have killed me at 60%, this matchup can be very tricky. From my experience, if theirs some distance between you two, fox can laser for some free percent and there's very little ganon can do.
Respect his boots

Fox vs Kirby

This filthy puffball can combo fox, hard, at low percents. But fox can make up the percents with some combos out of up tilt. In this match up it feels like both sides are constantly in each others's face, fighting for control of the nuetral. This fight tends to boil down to a game of king of the hill. Who can get the lead and confirm their kill first usually comes out on top.
A pretty even matchup 50:50

 

[DavemanCozy]

Thanks for your input everyone!

M@v : I feel like this thread is a mess and we should either be moving on from it or make something more substantial from it. While the comments provide general thoughts and some really good input from reliable sources, there are also a lot of comments that are on the old meta-game (pre patches) and that just don't hold up anymore.

Please take a look at the title post of the thread; I am playing around with the layout of it and have linked information better. Let me know (all of you) what you think of it. I only did it for the first three characters we started discussing. I don't want to do it for all yet, since I want to know where we should take MU discussion first.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I really like the update OP, DavemanCozy !
I do have a suggestion, though. With the image at the top of the page, I personally think it would be cool if we listed the ratios under the characters that have finished matchup discussions. This way any reader can know the basic outlook of a match right off the bat, and then scroll down to the specific character sections to learn more about each matchup.

 

[DavemanCozy]

If there are no objections then I'm going to start doing that with the rest of the matchups. I'll definitely consider adding the ratios on the OP image (though that is in itself outdated too, no DLC).

I'll continue editing then. Did Yoshi already. If anyone has anything to add or if I made a mistake, correct me please.

 

[Foster J.]

Just because It's @DEHF's opinion :^)

And at least it brings something to the table

 

[Xamad]

Interesting that he considers the Ness matchup even. Isn't the consensus on this thread that it's slightly in Ness's favour?
Other than that the list seems like it makes some sense.