Air Tilts and Air Smashes

[smash~bomber]

While im not sure it would work well with smash, I thought of a way they could make it work.
Simply making the C-stick for smashes, and the D-Pad for Tilts, since your not gonna taunt in the air, they could do this, its really the only unused button on the controller, unless they decide on turning one of the 3 jump buttons into taunt, perferably x or y....
But yea,
+=Tilts
(C)=Smash

That makes it so that if you ever want to fastfall dair, u just use A, and if not, move ur finger away from the joystick for half a second.

you sir, are a winner~
i heart you!

yeah, your idea supports my idea~ W00t~



didn't he say that the speed would be moded? i didnt see him say anything about slowing it down... refresh my memory please~

 

[Vali]

didn't he say that the speed would be moded? i didnt see him say anything about slowing it down... refresh my memory please~

He's hardly going to make it any faster than it is at the moment. I really don't see the appeal of changing a system where you can simply tilt the control stick and press A or use the c-stick to perform ariels, which works really well, to one where to perform air moves you have to either press a direction on the d-pad and use the c-stick. Can you honestly say that's preferable for anyone that play smash, pro or casual?

 

[Anther]

This just sounds complicated XD.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

just because u can use the Dpad. doesn't mean its the only way. much like all the other maneuvers, u'll still have ur own choice in how u want to aproach it, just like there are three ways to jump, and two ways to smash and ariel, u can add the Dpad as a move, and still be able to tilt the control stick to atk all u want. it will only help, its not gonna take away from the gameplay at all.

 

[Vali]

just because u can use the Dpad. doesn't mean its the only way. much like all the other maneuvers, u'll still have ur own choice in how u want to aproach it, just like there are three ways to jump, and two ways to smash and ariel, u can add the Dpad as a move, and still be able to tilt the control stick to atk all u want. it will only help, its not gonna take away from the gameplay at all.

One of the biggest problems with air smashes is that in both the case of up and down the control stick just wouldnt work. Fast falling when going down and double jumping when smashing up. It'll detract from the gameplay because it's unnecessarily overcomplicating the game. The current system is fine and works perfectly and if they plan on expanding on the aerial game they'll do it in a way which doesn't gimp the controls.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Perhaps changing the L button, to where u hold it in the air and the c-stick does smashes, and when ur not, the c-stick does tilts.

 

[Sariku]

Congrats, you have been linked to the Official Brawl Info Thread. Check it out in my Sig.

 

[Weej]

Perhaps changing the L button, to where u hold it in the air and the c-stick does smashes, and when ur not, the c-stick does tilts.

wonderful, that is exactly what I had been thinking as I have been reading over these wack *** control schemes.

maybe the l or r button will only need to be slightly pressed in to perform the moves.


I saw that people thought tilting the control stick would lead to double jumping, or fast falling. That is a ridiculous thing to say, that is saying that you personally are only capable of using the c-stick to perform aerials, to which I reply, It's not that Hard.


People also said that this would be too much of a step in difficulty. IT WOULD NOT BE THAT HARD TO GET USED TO!!!! Like all other things that come in Brawl, we will all eventually get used to the new techniques/ moves.

that is all for now.

 

[Legolastom]

I like the idea of air shielding were you get knocked back far if they hit you (press l and r at same time so you can still air dodge)

 

[Vali]

I saw that people thought tilting the control stick would lead to double jumping, or fast falling. That is a ridiculous thing to say, that is saying that you personally are only capable of using the c-stick to perform aerials, to which I reply, It's not that Hard.

Ok, I'm waiting for your explanation of how smashing the control stick upwards to perform an upward air smash would not lead to double jumping if you'd only jumped once. The problem isn't the tilting function because that's pretty much what is already implemented. Whether or not if me or anyone else is capable of performing a Dair without fast-falling is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that many people choose to perform Dairs (along with the other ariel attacks) with the C-stick. Smashing the control stick downwards to perform a dair-smash will most likely result in fast-falling, especially when short hopped (assuming short hopping returns).

 

[Weej]

Ok, I'm waiting for your explanation of how smashing the control stick upwards to perform an upward air smash would not lead to double jumping if you'd only jumped once. The problem isn't the tilting function because that's pretty much what is already implemented. Whether or not if me or anyone else is capable of performing a Dair without fast-falling is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that many people choose to perform Dairs (along with the other ariel attacks) with the C-stick. Smashing the control stick downwards to perform a dair-smash will most likely result in fast-falling, especially when short hopped (assuming short hopping returns).

Up smash: Slam the C-Stick Upwards
up tilt: move the c-stick upwards either partially, or do it softly
Down Smash: Slam the c-stick down
Down tilt: move the c-stick down either partially, or do it softly


Other Method:
Up smash: Slam the C-Stick Upwards, lightly holding l/r/other button
up tilt: move the c-stick upwards
Down Smash: Slam the c-stick down, lightly holding l/r/other button
Down tilt: move the c-stick down

Method 3:
Up smash: Slam the C-Stick Upwards
up tilt: move the control stick partially upwards, and press A, like you're doing a U-tilt on the ground
Down Smash: Slam the c-stick down
Down tilt: move the control stick partially down, and press A, like you're doing a D-tilt on the ground

 

[Vali]

The first method has been suggested before in this thread and as I've already argued, is prone to error. Method 3 suffers from the problem in smash at the moment which is that some people prefer to using the C-stick for tilts. While I have no problem that you obviously can do Dairs without fast-falling there are many people that can't and you have to remember is that the majority of people that play videogames don't take it to the pro level. Air-smashing doesn't seem very casual friendly to me. Method 2 could work, but again is a bit overcomplicating things.

I'm interested in why you think air smashes would be necessary anyway. At the moment air attacks are quite powerful and are often a very good way of racking up damage and finishing off opponents, shffling is probably the most important advanced technique you can learn. Do you intend for what would be the current "air tilts" to be less powerful than they are and then add in slower air smashes at the same power level? Is there much point in that? Would you want air smashes to be even more powerful than say the Knee or Sheik's fair?

 

[Weej]

I just thought it would be something interesting to discuss, seeing as there will be no new news until tomorrow. I had been thinking about this for a while, and decided to see what other's opinions are on the matter.

I by no means think it is necessary, I just thought it might throw a little bit more complexity into the air game, seeing as it is currently a battle of position and priority.

I doubt they will throw this into Brawl, but it might be nice to have more than 5 aerials ( i know, b moves too..) at your disposal.

I am surprised that many people are adamant against it. Let's say there was a great, easy method to using air smashes, would all these people who oppose it still feel the same way?

 

[Vali]

Actually since you suggested method 2 (and I think a similar thing was mentioned earlier but said holding down L/R) I've warmed to the idea a bit 'cause lightly pressing L/R would actually be quite intuitive and would work well with the whole C-stick thing. It's kinda simple enough not to complicate things too much, even if having 4 new aerials would take a bit of getting used to and the control scheme would definitely work.

I'm just wondering how well it'd play out, since aerials at the moment are really effective (when used more as ground moves). I think Sakurai will expand on air combat firstly by reducing the fall speed, which would allow a lot more of air combat and combos. Just speculation though, I base that on nothing. Air smashes could outbalance ground moves even further, but reducing some aerials in terms of power and definitely knockback and adding smash moves instead with a small increase in power over what we see in some aerials now, add a bit of lag and around the same knockback to some of them and it could work.

It does kind of annoy me though on these forums (and pretty much any devoted gathering of smashers) that it's often forgotten about the large amount of casuals this game is geared towards too. I know a lot of people wouldn't mind seeing a lot more complexity added to the game to add more strategy and depth in the core game mechanics (wavedashing is an example of this) but too much and it would force people to play seriously instead of for fun.

 

[crescentia]

I doubt they will throw this into Brawl, but it might be nice to have more than 5 aerials ( i know, b moves too..) at your disposal.

That's what the non-cardinal directions should provide.

On a side note, I don't see how "we'll get used to it" is a valid argument, seeing that Sakurai has explicitly stated the scaling DOWN of complexity as opposed to up. Of course there will be new features to the game, but one of the largest complaints about Melee is that it was too fast and too easy to screw up controller inputs (see Fox/Falco noobs).

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Im glad we may have come to some sort of agreement on this, but the funny thing is, no matter how much we agree or disagree with each other about this, the fact remains,

THE PROGRAMERS CAN STILL DO W.E. THE HECK THEY WANT

So wat we decide on the boards will have little to no effect on the end game play of Brawl.
If I were a mod, I'd just close this thread. It's ALMOST as bad as tier list guessing.

 

[smash~bomber]

i don'teven believe in tiers, they're just some kind of made up list thing based more on popularity. it's biased, is what im thinking.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

i don'teven believe in tiers, they're just some kind of made up list thing based more on popularity. it's biased, is what im thinking.

If I remember correctly, tier lists are based off of concrete(?) tournament results. They determine the frequency of a particular character's "win" ratio in tournaments. It's not so much a reflection of a character's inherent strengths and/or weaknesses as it is how they're utilized.

Who knows? I could be wrong. Look at the word "mindgames." Some people acknowledge it, some people don't; some people say it means this, others say it means that. Lord knows it's the same thing for tiers, right? Lol.

Anyway, back on topic here. I don't think aerial smashes are a bright idea. Weej, you had some pretty clever ways of slipping this into the game (Method #2 with L/R functionality is kinda workable) but it still makes things over-complicated. It makes me cringe to think that I could botch an aerial smash by a) Accidentally pressing the L/R buttons too hard or at the wrong time and air dodging right into somebody else's quicker "air tilt" or b) Trying to clock somebody with a fast-faller's aerial smash (i.e. Melee's Fox) only to have myself suddenly take a nosedive and leaving a nice, open frame for my opponents to punish me with ('course, aerial combat is the name of the game in Brawl. Maybe fast-falling with Fox'll not be as fast? Who knows). The two examples that I listed there are, admittedly, weak and john-like but the point behind it is relative: It's just too tough to implement into the flow and ebb of things. Simplicity is what Sakurai and Company are aiming for here, after all. That's what made the original SSB and SSBM so great: It was simple to learn and tough to master (at least, when you start delving into advanced techs).

Thinking a little too far outside of the box would hurt the series, in my opinion. I don't want it to be Melee 2.0, though, and am hoping that some new stuff that stays true to the spirit of the game is added in there.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Justin Wiles]

After reading the whole thread... hmm, well, Air Smashes just seem like a bad idea.

I was actually thinking about how it might be done myself, sometime last week. The problem is that all of a sudden, all of the characters' tilt airs would be just like ground tilts, and all the air smashes would be like ground smashes. I think the appeal of air moves in the last two games has been their diversity and function, and the fact that they AREN'T just your ground move set in the air.

Does that make sense? Anyway, it's a bad idea.

I'm assuming the appeal of this whole air smash/tilt thing is to lend to more air combat/comboing. But in doing that, you end up making every characters' air moveset even more uniform. It'll make things even LESS diverse by watering it all down to "use a bunch of tilts then smash them away".

What is a GOOD idea is air grabbing. Not so sure about air shielding... cool, yes, but that makes for a much more defensive game, and not as much action... all though, the more I think about it, Air Power Shielding would be good, because then you couldn't just throw up your shield and air-turtle, instead you would have to have good timing to block attacks.

To me, if you wanted to make air combot more action packed, you'd make so your air dodge doesn't leave you unable to perform moves after you use it. Like, for example, if you jumped and air-dodged, you could then use your second jump and continue to use air moves, but you couldn't air dodge again.

But what do I know? I'm one of those guys that would be happy with Melee 2.0

 

[smash~bomber]

almost like my older idea, the part you said about air dodging and still be able to act, but mine is: when you do your up+b, it doesn't leave you in a free-fall state anymore, meaning you could still do air attacks, but no more aerial b's and air dodges after an up+b, that's how i thought they could put more into brawl's air game.

 

[Legolastom]

Yhea that sounds like a good idea still being able to attack like that after doing your up b or air dodge.(But i thought it would be cool flying half way across the stage in your bubble).

 

[Bowserlick]

This seems like a bad idea for numerous reasons.

1. Smashes and tilts in the air seems too complex. A button system for it will be clunky.

2. Smashes are suppose to be stationary (for the most part). Able to move in the air while going through the motions of a Smash seems unfair.

3. Ground and air battles should be defined separately. That way the game has more flavor. Smashes are a large part of the ground game and should remain just in that area.

4. Also air throws seem like a bad dea (for every character). There is more variety when cartain characters have access to certain features (such as wall jumping, edge hooking, jumping invincibility frames, ect) and are denied other features. Bowser cannot wall jump, but he can grab people out of the air and fling them across the arena.

 

[Phaazoid]

@ bowserlick
you make some good points i disagree with point number 2. i would love to do a moving smash.

 

[Bowserlick]

Well there are moves like Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch and DK's storable charge punch that act very much like portable and moveable smashes. And this is how I think movable "smash" moves should stay. Not everyone should get them.

 

[strider43]

WOW that would be so hard to include. It would make smash 100x more complicated

 

[Doc_Holiday]

This is, by far, the stupidest idea I have ever heard.

 

[smash~bomber]

meh, tomato tomata, either way, different people will always say different things.

lock?

 

[Weej]

WOW that would be so hard to include. It would make smash 100x more complicated

Honestly, lets avoid hyperboles, some people get offended by them, ie. Me.

This is, by far, the stupidest idea I have ever heard.

This is no way to contribute, this is a discussion thread, care to tell why this idea is stupid?

... lock?

we are just discussing, never in this thread have I said this will/needs to be in brawl. The opposers make it sound like I did.
I agreee that there don't need to be speculation threads for brawl. Just wait for the game to come out.

 

[strider43]

^^^ are we discussing or is it just weej?

 

[CStrife187]

I see most of the complaints coming from people who say that it would be unfair to the casual gamer to include air smashes, but for the tournament player air smashes would be almost useless unless they could still be l-cancelled and had little startup lag. Charging an air smash in a tournament would lead to certain punishment and would never be done, so what we would end up with is just another set of air attacks that would lead to further comboing and juggling, leaving the person getting juggled with even fewer options. I personally like smash as a game with few (maybe 1 or 2) perfect infinites. If I wanted to infinite combo someone from 0-death I would play a capcom fighter, or Tekken. In a game that is already so unbalanced in the favor of air moves over ground moves, why make it even more unbalanced?

 

[180OP]

I think there are air smashes, because i f you see in the smash trailers you see in one scene ZS Samus is in the air and then she zips to the platform real quick. Could that be her down air smash?(which is diff from dair ofcourse)??

Some funky stuff, that's all I know.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

This is, by far, the stupidest idea I have ever heard.

THANK YOU!!!

 

[thefusion]

I know whenever I'm spiking someone I do it as if I were doing a smash. I don't see why there shouldn't be air tilts/smashes.

 

[strider43]

Is falcon's knee really a smash? i thought it was like a spike...

 

[Phaazoid]

offended by a hyperbole?
it would be a pretty cool inclusion, but it might screw up the game play if not done right.

 

[soaz]

i like the idea the game would probably be better thanks to that. But i cant really see it cuz if you would be able to use the smashes then falco would be able to recoer way to easily.

 

[Phaazoid]

plus, how would fast falling characters like fox do them if they land before they can execute the move?

 

[Professor Pro]

great idea with the air smashes. im not too sure about wanting to air throws though

 

[Linari Sabre]

A nice idea about air smashes but air throws not a good idea but how about air dashes or something combolicious

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I would love it if Brawl gave you the option to disable control stick jumping (on a player by player basis, of course). Wouldn't it be nice having the comfort of knowing that pushing up on the control stick would never cause you to jump when all you wanted was an up-tilt or up-smash? This would also solve any problems relating to air-smashes. I vote in favor of air-smashes! ^_^