Air releasing from grabs

[T-block]

Just a question I've had for a while that nobody's been able to answer - I thought here would be a good place to ask it.

This is the thread I made in Tactical a while back: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=272018

Can anyone explain to me the exact mechanics behind what makes a character air release? I know if you can hold the victim with their feet off the ground, they'll air release if you're not pummelling. But what about air releasing when both characters are the ground (like Squirtle vs. Ness)

I'll recap what I did:

Squirtle grabs Ness at 0%. Ness should break out in 90 frames since he's at 0%.
On the 84th frame, Squirtle inputs a pummel.
On the 85th frame, Ness inputs a jump. This will cause him to break out, since an input reduces grab time by 8 frames.
On the 86th frame, Ness breaks.

After doing this many times (note Ness is always breaking on frame 2 of the pummel), I've seen Ness do a ground break and an air break. So whatever model we come up with has to be able to explain this.

I also noticed a correlation between number of pummels during the grab and whether Ness air releases, but the number of tests done with number of pummels specifically as the manipulated variable is so few that it's hardly conclusive. You can read about it in the thread I linked to.

 

[GimR]

OK, I've already written this for the VGbootCamp project. Don't repost this:

• 
  The 4 Rules of Grab Releasing:
  
  
• You have Grabbed your Opponent:
  
  1. If you pummel your opponent and he is in hit stun as soon as the grab breaks then he will automatically do a ground release
     
  2. If your Opponent is airborne(feet are off the ground) and you are not pummeling him when he breaks the grab then he will do an aerial release no matter what
  
  
• You have Been Grabbed by your Opponent:
  
  
  1. If your feet are on the ground and you press either A, B, L, R down on the control stick and C-Stick, or input nothing you will break out on the ground
     
  2. If your feet are on the ground and you press the jump button(X,Y or up) within 1 second of releasing then you will aerial release(This is why a character always air releases when someone rolls the control stick)

Note: Rule 1 has priority over rule 4

 

[T-block]

That is the most common explanation, but it doesn't explain my observations.

The first rule is unclear... when is "as soon as the grab breaks"? Squirtle's pummel cycle consists of 19 frames when done frame-perfectly. I made Ness break on each of the 19 frames, and I've seen a ground release each time. That would mean Squirtle can force a ground release 100%, but I've also seen Ness air release (specifically on frame 2 in the example above) even with frame-perfect pummelling.

The important part is that if we design a test in which Ness always breaks on frame 2 of the pummel. He sometimes air releases, sometimes ground releases. How is that possible?

Also, for rule 4, Ness is breaking with a jump input (I used X), but he can still ground release.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I believe they ground break when they are in the hit "stun" of the pummel attack.

 

[T-block]

There has to be more to it than that.

If I'm pummelling perfectly (every 19 frames in this example), and Ness is breaking on the second frame after inputting A every time, what is it that makes him air release or ground release? Stale moves and fatigue were accounted for in this test, so we can't use that to defend the hitstun theory.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Doesn't it take more than two frames for the actual pummel attack to come out?

 

[T-block]

Right... it hits on frame 5 or so iirc.

But that shouldn't matter... if the pummel hasn't hit yet, then let's say Ness is not in hit stun on frame 2. Then he should always air release, according to your theory, no?

 

[Veril]

Doesn't it take more than two frames for the actual pummel attack to come out?

character pummels aren't identical but I believe that many of them hit 3 frames following the input.

 

[T-block]

Veril you don't have any insight or explanation for this? =(

 

[Veril]

I need to replicate your test and see for myself. You just described a random event, in a situation which is non-random. Either you're missing something in your explanation or there is another variable not accounted for. I'll run the test a few dozen times with different characters and post the results.

 

[T-block]

Sweet thanks <3 I never offered an explanation... all I claimed was that the results from my test disprove that current theory.

 

[GimR]

Right... it hits on frame 5 or so iirc.

But that shouldn't matter... if the pummel hasn't hit yet, then let's say Ness is not in hit stun on frame 2. Then he should always air release, according to your theory, no?

The 4 rules should explain what's going on

Rule 1 says that if the grab breaks during pummel hit stun then a ground break will happen no matter what. If Ness is breaking on frame 2 then then this rule doesn't apply since pummel hit stun has not happened yet.

Since Ness' feet are on the ground then rule 2 doesn't apply.

Rule 4 says that if you input a jump within about a second of breaking then you will air release.

Rule 1 cancels out rule 4, but in this case that doesn't matter because Ness isn't breaking during pummel hit stun.

So, here's what I challenge you to do on your next set of testing:

1. Have Ness break out on frame 2 of the pummel but Only have him input A or B to break out. I guarantee you he'll break out on the ground.

2. Do the same as 1. except have Ness only input up or X to break out. I guarantee he will air release

If 2. or 1. don't work, try inputing jump or A at frame 60 instead of the frame 85. I'm telling you to do it this way because the game might get confused or something if you input a command 1 frame before breaking(if that 1 command is the only command you input prior to breaking)

If it doesn't work after that, then I'll have to test it myself

 

[T-block]

2. Do the same as 1. except have Ness only input up or X to break out. I guarantee he will air release

That's what I'm saying... he doesn't always air release.

I chose to break on the 85th frame because then he's breaking with the actual jump input, but your approach is worth a shot. If I had access to a Wii I'd test it, but I don't =(