Air Momentum Canceling For Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard

[Atria]

Yesterday, I was asking around the tactical boards on how this technique worked and I understand how to do it. I'm just wondering if any of you guys know what the current strategy is for canceling air momentum both horizontally and vertically when using either Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard. Also, I've been told that Squirtle's Fair is his fastest aerial or is it his Bair? Lastly, for Ivysaur, his fastest aerial is Nair and Charizard from what I've been told is Fair. Are these right?

Also if by any chance, you know what another character's strategy is for canceling air momentum, (Kirby, Lucario, Marth, Olimar, Pit and ROB) then can you share with me what it is that you do to stop their momentum when knocked both horizontally and vertically at a high % as well? I would prefer it if you answered in the character's respective board because I'll be asking around there too. Thanks in advance!

 

[PkTrainerCris]

For squirtle, i think its fair, for ivy bair or maybe nair, and for zard fair ... remember that its not just how quick it starts, but also how quick it ends
I think Ulevo said something interesting about withdraw cancelling air momentum, but i havent tried it

 

[Steeler]

yeah withdraw is nice to cancel momentum...if the boundary is far enough away for you to use it

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Squirtle's upair is his fastest aerial. I'm almost positive

 

[Atria]

Yeah apparantly from a video I watched, Squirtle's best option to counteract knockback momentum is to fastfall Fair/Bair + Jump + >B (For Fair/Bair, I still don't know which one it is because the person alternated between the 2 and that's why I came here to ask about that)

Anyway, someone told me that Ivysaur's fastest aerial 'duration wise' was his Nair. I didn't think this was right, so I used 2 Ivysaur's in training to see which move was faster: Bair or Nair. Anyway, what I got was Nair. (I still can't get myself to agree with this, especially because I did this on my own and one of my controllers was a Wii-remote. (Which I know suck and it was hard to time properly because of that) Again, that is why I came here to ask about that.

For Charizard, a person also told me 'duration wise' that Charizard's fastest aerial was his Fair. Again, I've been told it's his Fair. Would all of you agree on this?

Lastly appart from Squirtle and maybe Ivysaur, are there any specials/tactics Ivysaur and Charizard can use to cancel their momentum further? I'm looking more at Charizard because with MK, one of his best options is Uair + Jump + Glide. I'm wondering if gliding can cancel knockback momentum further for Charizard like it can for MK.

 

[typh]

DO NOT use charizard's fair to cancel your momentum ever ever EVER

trust me on this

 

[Steeler]

why typh why why why

 

[Miles.]

DO NOT use charizard's fair to cancel your momentum ever ever EVER

trust me on this

i do, it works fine for me.

 

[Atria]

DO NOT use charizard's fair to cancel your momentum ever ever EVER

trust me on this

An explanation on why I shouldn't use Charizard's Fair to regain control after being hit by a move at a high % would be helpful. I still don't see why not. What do you use instead for these kind of situations Typh? You didn't tell me what other move I should be using instead. Therefore, I'm still going to use the Fair unless you can give me a good reason why I shouldn't.

 

[Zephramrill]

When a man asks for trust... MAYBE we should listen. Typh is a real man, and REAL MEN DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES (or admit to making them anyway)

 

[typh]

you guys i am trolling 80% of the time havent you figured this out yet

 

[CaliburChamp]

I use Charizard's Up-air instead of F-air to regain momentum. Up-air seems to come out a bit quicker.

Also, if Ivysaur get's up-smashed, Ivysaur's Up-air is a good move to help blast you back down, negating the momentum from the up-smash. And if Ivysaur is hit to the side of the stage, B-air is his next best option.

And I think it's better to use Squirtle's up-air, although F-air is about 1 frame slower, so use F-air is you want.

 

[Charizard92]

you guys i am trolling 80% of the time havent you figured this out yet

Actually, I kinda figured after the half ***ed ramblings. and the crude comments, and the generally mean behavior, and...

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure, I just hit the shield button.

 

[Atria]

Ah, good news everybody! I don't know if this a known fact or not, but gliding has another purpose now apart from recovery. It is now used to counteract horizontal knockback momentum! I confirmed it while I was trying to find out what Pit's and Charizard's fastest aerial is. (still don't know what it is unfortuantly as well as Charizard's...) Anyway, you should use your fastest aerial first and then hold the jump button to glide. No 'boost' occurs when you do this. Well probably a tiny amount is visible, but it shouldn't affect you that much... Anyway, it's better than Uair/Bair + Jumping. This applies to all characters who can glide. Charizard's is the least effective however, (Because of that extra jump Charizard does before gliding. Pit and MK however, glide immediately) but it still helps. Anyway, I'm pretty sure most of you knew that anyway.

Also CaliburChamp, I took what you said into consideration about Charizard's Uair being his fastest aerial but I don't know what to think anymore. I did a test on 3 of charizard's aerials which included Fair, Uair and Bair. Anyway from what I got from my test, Bair was his fastest aerial so unless there is any frame data for P.T., I guess I might be using the Bair from now on. From the results I got, Fair was the worst one to use following Uair then Bair in improving order of quickest aerial.

Also, I'm still unsure about what Ivysaur's and Squirtle's fastest aerial move is. Do any of you guys know which one of their aerial moves has the lowest duration time?

 

[infernovia]

you guys i am trolling 80% of the time havent you figured this out yet

Way to blow your cover.

 

[Zephramrill]

thats why i responded with an 'angry' response. ABOUT TRUST GOD DAM YOU TYPH

 

[Atria]

Yeah, Squirtle's Uair is his fastest aerial move. My test also proved this right. Therefore for me, that's 1 down and 2 more to go.

So any suggestions on what Ivysaur's and Charizard's fastest aerial move is? For Charizard, I've narrowed it down to either Bair or Uair and for Ivysaur, I still don't know if it is his Nair or Bair which has the shortest duration time. Any ideas guys or do you know of any threads which have frame data for P.T. which you can refer me to?

 

[Steeler]

i'm 90% sure that ivy bair is shorter than its nair

zard uair actually lasts a pretty long time :s it's between fair and bair still.

 

[Atria]

Well I've managed to clear everything up. According to my test, Charizard's fastest aerial is his Bair and Ivysaur's fastest aerial is his Nair. (At least you don't have to memorize what direction he's in. However, it'll be harder to fastfall unfortuantly...) However, Nair was only about a split second faster than Bair. Technically, it won't really matter which one you use however. I guess it's up to personal preferance really. Therefore to sum up all 3 pokemon, Squirtle's fastest aerial is his Uair, Ivysaur's is Nair while Charizard's is Bair. Also Squirtle can use his >B while Charizard can glide to cancel knockback momentum further.

Thanks everyone for the help. If you know anything about the other characters which I mentioned above when it comes to canceling knockback momentum, feel free to post it in their respective board or here. (Almost everybody else is doing it. It's like as if they didn't read my first post! Oh well... )

 

[Straider]

Isn't it better to recover from up knockback with ivy uair, it seems so, but i always forgot to try .

 

[Rkey]

Isn't it better to recover from up knockback with ivy uair, it seems so, but i always forgot to try .

I'm thinking something like that too. I mean, it sends you downward, and ivysaurs recovery sucks, but if you have to choose between getting killed and maybe getting killed, you choose the latter. If Uair wil cancel air momentum and stop you from dying, it might be effective. Late in Sweden, everyone asleep, can't try.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

If you want to cancel momentum with Ivy use his Bair. Yeah Nair is faster but here's the thing. You'll have to have the Direction Stick pointed back to the stage while you spam C-Stick to back air and cancel momentum. Once you do you can recover back to the stage normally.

Squirtle or Charizard I do either Fair or Bair. One may be after than the other but it feels minor so whatever.

It goes for both horizontal and vertical.

 

[Miles.]

Ivy's best is Bair omg i live so long now.

Zard I fair.

 

[zeta]

i was doing some testing on this and here is what i have found.

ivy's nair is the fastest but not as easy as bair the difference in the two is minimal though.
squirts uair is his fastest aerial and withdraw is made of win.
zards bair is his fastest but zard has a weird momentum boost afterwards if you're not careful.

vid will be up soon.

 

[infomon]

Isn't it better to recover from up knockback with ivy uair, it seems so, but i always forgot to try .

As far as I know, aerials don't have momentum-changing properties when you're in knockback; but it's quite possible there are exceptions, so it'd be worth testing for sure.

If you want to cancel momentum with Ivy use his Bair. Yeah Nair is faster but here's the thing. You'll have to have the Direction Stick pointed back to the stage while you spam C-Stick to back air and cancel momentum. Once you do you can recover back to the stage normally.

Squirtle or Charizard I do either Fair or Bair. One may be after than the other but it feels minor so whatever.

Why is your control stick pointing towards the stage?

1. That might not have been the best way to DI when you got hit; if you're being sent straight horizontal, you'd want the stick straight vertical. If you're being sent at an angle directly towards the corner, you probably don't want to DI (or just DI towards the corner; it will have no effect), since that's where you want to go.

2. Regardless, once you're sent flying away, your control stick doesn't need to point anywhere; afaik you can't control any horizontal mobility until after you're out of hitstun. So you can just release the control stick and input your Bair or whatever.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Oh zeta that sounds interesting, I look forward to the video!

 

[zeta]

video is a goooooooooooooooo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdUP_HSg7eA

 

[Atria]

i was doing some testing on this and here is what i have found.

ivy's nair is the fastest but not as easy as bair the difference in the two is minimal though.
squirts uair is his fastest aerial and withdraw is made of win.
zards bair is his fastest but zard has a weird momentum boost afterwards if you're not careful.

vid will be up soon.

Oooh nice summary zeta! Your summary looks awfully similar to mine. You sure you didn't just copy and paste that out from my earlier post and worded it differently?

lol just joking zeta! I'm being a b****... Anyways back on topic...
To zeta: Yeah I completely agree with your findings from what I put down in my earlier post when I summarised everything. Also, I know gliding helps cancel ALL momentum for Pit and MK, but is true that this can benefit Charizard too, but not as effectively from what I said earlier? Also, do you know how to upload videos from your computer onto here? I've had problems beforehand trying to do so for my guide...

 

[Rkey]

Wait, are you guys saying you can't DI diagonally?

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Why is your control stick pointing towards the stage?

So I can get back on stage.

If it doesn't matter which direction the Direction Stick it pointing during DI I might as well point it back to the stage so once I'm out of hit stun my character still start to drift back to the stage, I can jump/recover as need be.

 

[Straider]

Thx zeta for the vid, maybe i could live longer with this. Too bad for ivy the uair dont cancel the momentum.

 

[T-block]

Hold up...so foar Squirtle the best way to recover is to uair, jump, and then side+b? o.o I'll definitely try this out when I get home. Doesn't that kinda leave you open to an easy gimp if you use up your double jump?

 

[Rkey]

Hold up...so foar Squirtle the best way to recover is to uair, jump, and then side+b? o.o I'll definitely try this out when I get home. Doesn't that kinda leave you open to an easy gimp if you use up your double jump?

You're only doing it if you would die otherwise, it's like a second chance for survival. And yes, sometimes it's not that big...

 

[zeta]

Hold up...so foar Squirtle the best way to recover is to uair, jump, and then side+b? o.o I'll definitely try this out when I get home. Doesn't that kinda leave you open to an easy gimp if you use up your double jump?

the best way to survive would be up air to regain aerial di then just di towards the stage withdraw is only for extreme situations or mindgames.

 

[infomon]

If it doesn't matter which direction the Direction Stick it pointing during DI I might as well point it back to the stage so once I'm out of hit stun my character still start to drift back to the stage, I can jump/recover as need be.

Well the control stick is used to DI, but once you're flying away (in hitstun) you don't have any aerial control until hitstun ends; which will normally be a bit before you've reached your full knockback distance, but if you escape hitstun early with an aerial then I think leaning towards the stage helps after the aerial is over, but maybe not. I really don't think "leaning" has an effect during knockback at all. You should just concentrate on escaping hitstun with a fast aerial, then quickly jumping towards the stage, or using withdraw if you're squirtle.

Hold up...so foar Squirtle the best way to recover is to uair, jump, and then side+b? o.o I'll definitely try this out when I get home. Doesn't that kinda leave you open to an easy gimp if you use up your double jump?

IMO the jump is not necessary, and can actually push you over the top. Just use Uair to escape hitstun, then quickly withdraw towards the stage. It'll only help in extreme cases (where you're sent far enough that you actually have time to Uair then side-B), but those happen every now and then. For Ivysaur or 'Zard, use the fastest aerial, then jump towards the stage if you need to and are low enough. ('Zard might want to glide as well, as Atria said.... we should test this lol.)

OH! One more thing.. be sure to fastfall the aerial; like squirtle's Uair, you can fastfall it during knockback, and he won't go quite as high. Same with 'Zard and Ivysaur.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Well the control stick is used to DI, but once you're flying away (in hitstun) you don't have any aerial control until hitstun ends; which will normally be a bit before you've reached your full knockback distance, but if you escape hitstun early with an aerial then I think leaning towards the stage helps after the aerial is over, but maybe not. I really don't think "leaning" has an effect during knockback at all. You should just concentrate on escaping hitstun with a fast aerial, then quickly jumping towards the stage, or using withdraw if you're squirtle.

Pretty much a rephrase of what I said earlier :U

 

[infomon]

Uhhhmm..... yeah. Sorry, I think I'm being dumb and not properly thinking things through today

 

[Atria]

Ahh guys, you know how I recommended you to glide when using Charizard after jumping? Yeah, DON'T DO IT. I experimented with it again and apparently at around 130% when I used it, it just pushes you back more (by a small amount) because of that extra jump Charizard does before gliding. You are better off just jumping after you do a Bair. I think it could help for lower %'s, but I probably wouldn't recommend it. It kinda sucks how Pit's and MK's glides work for them in this situation and not Charizard's. Might mess around with it more however.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Use Glide in a -Tactful- way. I use it often to gain momentum after I am out of the hit stun, cancel out then either jump or Fly back to action. You can Glide and hit yourself on the ledge and Charizard will automatically grab it. Or if you can Glide around your enemy and make it back to the stage, all mind games. Don't use it -all- the time, just when you see fit.

Tact!

 

[Atria]

Use Glide in a -Tactful- way. I use it often to gain momentum after I am out of the hit stun, cancel out then either jump or Fly back to action. You can Glide and hit yourself on the ledge and Charizard will automatically grab it. Or if you can Glide around your enemy and make it back to the stage, all mind games. Don't use it -all- the time, just when you see fit.

Tact!

Yeah this is true and all, but try not to use Charizard's glide for canceling either vertical or horizontal knockback momentum when you are at around 130%. At a slightly lower %, (around 110%) it doesn't seem to affect Charizard, but when I tried it at that %, it just pushed me back more. Probably do it near the end of the knockback momentum to cancel it more successfully? I'm still practicing this however.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Best to use Glide once you have regained control of Charizard to do all that business. Even at low percents if you use Glide to stop momentum you'll have very little moment to start gliding forward.