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Air dodging in SSB4

Bladeviper

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They don't have it figured out. In my same post exactly one sentence later I said this game has a ton of untapped potential. Fundamentals are the groundwork of the game and if the best players in the world time out it only leaves a bad impression



Let me ask you this and maybe you will understand. How many combos would be possible in Melee without wavedashing? Or how many combos would there be in 64 without the larger amount of hitstun?
They can add hitstun all they want but like I said in the same post that you quoted me you need to move fluidly along with that because the hitstun is not like 64. I already said the game has amazing potential maybe even grater than Melee but almost EVERYONE on this forum is looking threw rainbow glasses. It's OK to be critical is the main reason I posted and I have my concerns and they are very justified.
and then there are people taking a dump on the game because its missing things melee or project m has it goes both ways there. Its fine to be critical but some people are just actively trying to put the game down cause its not what they are used too. Also just because there is a time out in one tournament that based on an early build that was played for a few hours does not mean much, it could just have been the result of a bad match up we cant say for sure right now
 

GrownCannoli

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and then there are people taking a dump on the game because its missing things melee or project m has it goes both ways there. Its fine to be critical but some people are just actively trying to put the game down cause its not what they are used too. Also just because there is a time out in one tournament that based on an early build that was played for a few hours does not mean much, it could just have been the result of a bad match up we cant say for sure right now
Yup. I guess we both have valid points and nether of us is wrong.

Just to try to get back on the main topic I think it is very nice that Air Dodging has increased landing lag.
People wont use it close to the ground much anymore because it is not as good as an option as it was before. I like that a lot.
 

Bladeviper

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Yup. I guess we both have valid points and nether of us is wrong.

Just to try to get back on the main topic I think it is very nice that Air Dodging has increased landing lag.
People wont use it close to the ground much anymore because it is not as good as an option as it was before. I like that a lot.
at least we can be civil on this lol. On topic i think we could see some jump baits with the air dodge too. With things like bowser's side b auto canceling he could bait out the dodge then lead into a big hit or a combo he if has any
 

Ghirahilda

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Which characters have their air dodge animations changed? Can you air dodge and instantly grab a ledge for a very safe recovery?
 

Bladeviper

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Which characters have their air dodge animations changed? Can you air dodge and instantly grab a ledge for a very safe recovery?
im not sure if you can instagrab the ledge but ledge hogging is gone so it might not be viable to do that in the first place anymore
 

The One Who Wrote This

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It seems like Air Dodging in Sm4sh (that's the moniker we're using for the 4th game, right?) is essentially a nerfed version of Brawl's Air Dodge.

I'm completely fine with that actually! I'm mainly happy that we don't become helpless in the air after the dodge and that it won't be as useful as it was in Brawl.

Which characters have their air dodge animations changed? Can you air dodge and instantly grab a ledge for a very safe recovery?
That's actually a very good question. If you can dodge and grab a ledge in succession, then that would REALLY add to the ledge grabbing game in the sense that it would be the safest option. That needs to be tested out when the game comes out (among the rest of the game).

Edit:

im not sure if you can instagrab the ledge but ledge hogging is gone so it might not be viable to do that in the first place anymore
Good point. Edge guarding this time around is different because of the fact that grabbing a ledge from above forces the other person off (dunno if grabbing from below forces the switch as well). Maybe you cannot grab the ledge while air dodging. It's worth testing out.
 
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criticalhit1992

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I think this change is definitely for the better, cutting defensive options is a always a good thing :)
Cutting out those defensive options is actually really good. Brawl was heavily based on defense while Melee was more offensive and it seems like they're mixing those together to have the game reward both defense and offense. It's awesome!
 

Ghirahilda

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I'm looking forward for this game, I HOPE it will be the best thing ever after Project M... (needs to use caps so people can't argue that I'm saying the game will be the better one... so many crazy people here)
 

criticalhit1992

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I'm looking forward for this game, I HOPE it will be the best thing ever after Project M... (needs to use caps so people can't argue that I'm saying the game will be the better one... so many crazy people here)
Yeah some people just can never accept new ideas. They just stick with the old and don't even make room for new ideas and they just hate on the game because it is not like what they're used to. It's quite sad really.
 

Dr. James Rustles

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If you don't like the game, simply don't buy it, don't make people feel bad about a game that hasn't even been released yet, its been stated billions of times that there are things that need changing. You're one of the people that are actually decaying Sm4sh and it's not cool..

Not sure where people are getting the idea I don't like Sm4sh or or that I am out to undermine it just because I am telling people the truth about what kind of game it is.

It's not like I didn't, ahem, write a damn guide for the game or anything.

There doesn't appear to be any more mobility options like waves or cancels for things like landing aerials. Even the neutral position might take a hit with dash dancing gone. You guys should know that back in the day people were saying the same thing about Brawl except the situation was a lot louder. "Guys let's just wait and see what new ATs we can find we haven't even developed the Meta yet" Well the only thing we got was the DACUS for some and B sticking for a few less. Pretty sure we have mechanically see all the significant mobility options and there's no way to cancel landing lag. That's not me trying to undermine the game, that's me stating facts.

Also, eat my ****, D-idara. I gave up a chance to play the Smash 4 demo to speak with over 100 people during the Best Buy event about forming a competitive Smash community for Central AL again and playing Sm4sh when it comes out. I even talked to the Nintendo rep about the ASL and how the Smash community was interested in continuing partnerships with Nintendo for tournaments.

So I ask: What the hell have you done for Sm4sh? Pissing and moaning non-stop since you've registered doesn't count.
 
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Scourge The Hedgehog

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Taking away the defensive campy aspects of brawl in my opinion is great. New ledge mechanic, nerfed version of the brawl aerial dodge. Keep them coming. This is just my opinion.
 

Hong

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I love how everyone's praising the new game mechanics and the style balance and Quilt Reversal comes and starts a crusade againist Smash4, trying to undermine everyone's points and backing himself up on 'pro-opinions'.
Also, eat my ****, D-idara. I gave up a chance to play the Smash 4 demo to speak with over 100 people during the Best Buy event about forming a competitive Smash community for Central AL again and playing Sm4sh when it comes out. I even talked to the Nintendo rep about the ASL and how the Smash community was interested in continuing partnerships with Nintendo for tournaments.

So I ask: What the hell have you done for Sm4sh? Pissing and moaning non-stop since you've registered doesn't count.
Let's not.

I will have to ask you to keep this unnecessary toxic behaviour out of this thread. Take your squabble with @D-idara to private conversation. I love you both, but frankly no one wants to see this. This thread is ripe for insightful and engaging discussion, and there is no business in anyone starting any fires.
 

Ghirahilda

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Stay on topic...

So i found that Zelda has a new air dodge animation... I really hope the air dodges have a better frame equilibrium for float characters this time. Looking at Brawl's data frame ones so just we can stay on topic...

Characters Invincibility Frames Total Frames
Meta Knight3-29 39
Zero Suit Samus4-29 39
Diddy Kong4-29 39
Pit4-29 39
Squirtle4-29 39
Ivysaur4-29 39
Charizard4-29 39
Ike4-29 39
Snake4-29 39
King Dedede4-29 39
Lucario4-29 39
Wario4-29 39
R.O.B.4-29 39
Olimar4-29 39
Ice Climbers4-29 48
Ness4-29 48
Sonic4-29 48
Lucas4-29 48
Bowser4-30 49
Mario4-29 49
Donkey Kong4-29 49
Link4-29 49
Samus4-29 49
Kirby4-29 49
Fox4-29 49
Pikachu4-29 49
Mr. Game & Watch4-29 49
Luigi4-29 49
Zelda4-29 49
Sheik4-29 49
Falco4-29 49
Yoshi4-29 49
Ganondorf4-29 49
Wolf4-29 49
Toon Link4-29 49
Captain Falcon4-29 49
Jigglypuff4-29 49
Marth5-30 49
Peach4-19 49
 
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Bladeviper

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Not sure where people are getting the idea I don't like Sm4sh or or that I am out to undermine it just because I am telling people the truth about what kind of game it is.

It's not like I didn't, ahem, write a damn guide for the game or anything.

There doesn't appear to be any more mobility options like waves or cancels for things like landing aerials. Even the neutral position might take a hit with dash dancing gone. You guys should know that back in the day people were saying the same thing about Brawl except the situation was a lot louder. "Guys let's just wait and see what new ATs we can find we haven't even developed the Meta yet" Well the only thing we got was the DACUS for some and B sticking for a few less. Pretty sure we have mechanically see all the significant mobility options and there's no way to cancel landing lag. That's not me trying to undermine the game, that's me stating facts.

Also, eat my ****, D-idara. I gave up a chance to play the Smash 4 demo to speak with over 100 people during the Best Buy event about forming a competitive Smash community for Central AL again and playing Sm4sh when it comes out. I even talked to the Nintendo rep about the ASL and how the Smash community was interested in continuing partnerships with Nintendo for tournaments.

So I ask: What the hell have you done for Sm4sh? Pissing and moaning non-stop since you've registered doesn't count.
there is dash dancing its seen in some videos
 

Mr. KoopaTurtle

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there is dash dancing its seen in some videos
Yes, but it takes so much to pull off that it's not necessary. As far as movement options, this game doesn't seem very fluid. I don't think there will be too many ways to move around in this game other than walk, run, and jump.

On topic however, I'm glad to see there is lag on airdodges now in order to hinder defensive play. Not only will this make matches more fun to watch, but more fun to play as well. I am very excited to see how this metagame will turn out in the end.
 

criticalhit1992

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Yes, but it takes so much to pull off that it's not necessary. As far as movement options, this game doesn't seem very fluid. I don't think there will be too many ways to move around in this game other than walk, run, and jump.

On topic however, I'm glad to see there is lag on airdodges now in order to hinder defensive play. Not only will this make matches more fun to watch, but more fun to play as well. I am very excited to see how this metagame will turn out in the end.
I think about six months or a year after the game is released when people start having tournament it will be MUCH better to watch than Brawl tournaments. Take a look at the invitational it was fun to hear all of the hype once again.
 

Hong

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there is dash dancing its seen in some videos
Yes, but it takes so much to pull off that it's not necessary.
The problem isn't that dash dancing is too difficult to execute. The problem is that it's too tight. The window to avert your direction are a mere few frames. It's not only less deceptive, but you can't really use it to weave in and out of a safe/unsafe position to bogy your opponent into whiffing an attack for you to punish.

Marth and Roy's dash dance in Melee for example are so good since you can take such long strides. You can even use it while on-top of your foe to nullify grab options.
 

Bladeviper

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The problem isn't that dash dancing is too difficult to execute. The problem is that it's too tight. The window to avert your direction are a mere few frames. It's not only less deceptive, but you can't really use it to weave in and out of a safe/unsafe position to bogy your opponent into whiffing an attack for you to punish.

Marth and Roy's dash dance in Melee for example are so good since you can take such long strides. You can even use it while on-top of your foe to nullify grab options.
i never said the dash dance in smash 4 was good or anything i just keep seeing people say its not in the game which is false just to be clear
 

Hong

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i never said the dash dance in smash 4 was good or anything i just keep seeing people say its not in the game which is false just to be clear
That's just it, though. A lot of the people who say it's not in the game are aware of the fact it's there in the game to a meagre extent. It's more of wiggle dance than a dash dance. I'll refute the claim and say it's not entirely useless, but I'll agree with them that it couldn't hurt to have more freedom.
 

Bladeviper

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That's just it, though. A lot of the people who say it's not in the game are aware of the fact it's there in the game to a meagre extent. It's more of wiggle dance than a dash dance. I'll refute the claim and say it's not entirely useless, but I'll agree with them that it couldn't hurt to have more freedom.
not disagreeing here, just it bugs me that people are stating false info cause they dont like they way its working at the moment thats all
 

Mr. KoopaTurtle

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The problem isn't that dash dancing is too difficult to execute. The problem is that it's too tight. The window to avert your direction are a mere few frames. It's not only less deceptive, but you can't really use it to weave in and out of a safe/unsafe position to bogy your opponent into whiffing an attack for you to punish.

Marth and Roy's dash dance in Melee for example are so good since you can take such long strides. You can even use it while on-top of your foe to nullify grab options.
That's what I meant. I just didn't know how to word it properly at the time.
 

Bladeviper

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Yes, but it takes so much to pull off that it's not necessary. As far as movement options, this game doesn't seem very fluid. I don't think there will be too many ways to move around in this game other than walk, run, and jump.

On topic however, I'm glad to see there is lag on airdodges now in order to hinder defensive play. Not only will this make matches more fun to watch, but more fun to play as well. I am very excited to see how this metagame will turn out in the end.
i am excited too it seems they are making it easier to punish all the defensive options if they are used like they were in brawl can't wait to see what else is coming
 

Ghirahilda

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There is some lag if you use air dodge and try to attack with a midair after it?
 

Ghirahilda

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not sure i know there is still a buffer when pressing a button but anything beyond that i didnt notice from videos
I mean... in Brawl you could air dodge and after it you can attack, but this time it's still the same thing? There is no some type of lag?
 
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micstar615

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There is some lag if you use air dodge and try to attack with a midair after it?
Ending lag after an air dodge? I'm not sure, someone said earlier in this thread that they think they remember hearing that, but that's obviously an ambiguous statement at best. This should be tested, maybe during comic con?
 

Ghirahilda

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Ending lag after an air dodge? I'm not sure, someone said earlier in this thread that they think they remember hearing that, but that's obviously an ambiguous statement at best. This should be tested, maybe during comic con?
I wish I could go, but I live on Brazil, what I should do? Call Donatella and ask for a particular plane?
 

micstar615

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I wish I could go, but I live on Brazil, what I should do? Call Donatella and ask for a particular plane?
xD I live in Canada, but I guess i could ride on a polar bear or something :p

I believe there may be some users here going there so this may be a good thing to ask them to check for, look out for future threads during comic con cuz I'm sure some fans will be there and will be asking for things to check.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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Let me talk about airdodging mechanics since I actually tested these a lot. Airdoding has a substantial landing lag but not quite as big as some make it sound; I'd say it's about as laggy to get the airdodge landing lag as to land during an average quality nair. However, there are no autocancel windows on either side of the animation, and I believe the extra lag even extends to landing during the animation's IASA. In other words, you have to be absolutely 100% done with the animation to avoid the lag when landing, and if you start up the animation and land, you get the lag even if you land before a single invincible frame occurs. Of course, that last point means that you need a little more precision than in Brawl to shield right as you land, and punishing landings is going to be a lot easier in general. In the match I played as Mega Man, I abused this by putting fsmash on top of people as they were landing. If they didn't airdodge, it would hit them out of the low air. If they did, it would tag them as they got the airdodge landing lag. There was just no way not to get hit out of that situation for them, and while this kind of set-up works in every smash game, I feel like it's especially strong in smash 4. I didn't get to test how airdodges canceled into tether attacks work which could be very important for those characters, but I think that's a pretty good handle on its general function.

One of the main reasons Brawl was so defensive was that run-away was so good, and it was no mystery why. 39f zero landing lag airdodges were crazy strong, and characters better at utilizing that to flee were ridiculously hard to catch. Combine with the forresses that were ledges, and it becomes clear how you can just run away with a life lead and slowly chip away at someone who dares approach. This change puts substantial and real risk to just running; your opponent can just put traps in your way, and you have a way worse tool to just keep evading. The risk-reward on doing that starts to look really poor if you aren't getting good attacking options regularly, and since ledges are now a disadvantage to go onto instead of an advantage, you can't just kill the momentum of risky positions by going to them. This kind of thing is why I'm so optimistic about smash 4; I already loved Brawl, but I didn't love everything about Brawl, and the things that were least lovable seem to be really carefully designed around this time. The airdodge mechanics are really one of the best demonstrations of that, and I thought they played great.
 

micstar615

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Let me talk about airdodging mechanics since I actually tested these a lot. Airdoding has a substantial landing lag but not quite as big as some make it sound; I'd say it's about as laggy to get the airdodge landing lag as to land during an average quality nair. However, there are no autocancel windows on either side of the animation, and I believe the extra lag even extends to landing during the animation's IASA. In other words, you have to be absolutely 100% done with the animation to avoid the lag when landing, and if you start up the animation and land, you get the lag even if you land before a single invincible frame occurs. Of course, that last point means that you need a little more precision than in Brawl to shield right as you land, and punishing landings is going to be a lot easier in general. In the match I played as Mega Man, I abused this by putting fsmash on top of people as they were landing. If they didn't airdodge, it would hit them out of the low air. If they did, it would tag them as they got the airdodge landing lag. There was just no way not to get hit out of that situation for them, and while this kind of set-up works in every smash game, I feel like it's especially strong in smash 4. I didn't get to test how airdodges canceled into tether attacks work which could be very important for those characters, but I think that's a pretty good handle on its general function.

One of the main reasons Brawl was so defensive was that run-away was so good, and it was no mystery why. 39f zero landing lag airdodges were crazy strong, and characters better at utilizing that to flee were ridiculously hard to catch. Combine with the forresses that were ledges, and it becomes clear how you can just run away with a life lead and slowly chip away at someone who dares approach. This change puts substantial and real risk to just running; your opponent can just put traps in your way, and you have a way worse tool to just keep evading. The risk-reward on doing that starts to look really poor if you aren't getting good attacking options regularly, and since ledges are now a disadvantage to go onto instead of an advantage, you can't just kill the momentum of risky positions by going to them. This kind of thing is why I'm so optimistic about smash 4; I already loved Brawl, but I didn't love everything about Brawl, and the things that were least lovable seem to be really carefully designed around this time. The airdodge mechanics are really one of the best demonstrations of that, and I thought they played great.
This is what I wanted to hear, a demonstration from someone who spent time with the demo! Thank you so much Amazing Ampharos for the depth and detail in your post, I really dig the mechanic change, hopefully it carries over to the final game and gets even more refined.
 

Renji64

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If it looks like a brawl and plays like a brawl it's a brawl. I'm not seeing how this game stands out on it's own so far. But this is a good change to the airdoge.
 

Bladeviper

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If it looks like a brawl and plays like a brawl it's a brawl. I'm not seeing how this game stands out on it's own so far. But this is a good change to the airdoge.
except does not look or play like brawl try again
 

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If it looks like a brawl and plays like a brawl it's a brawl. I'm not seeing how this game stands out on it's own so far. But this is a good change to the airdoge.
None of us are really talking about how Smash 4 compares to the previous Smash games or how it stands out, my good sir. We're talking about the airdodge mechanics for Smash 4 and what they will mean for Smash 4, not whether or not this game looks like Brawl or Melee or 64.
 

Dr. James Rustles

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It does look like brawl come on now lol be honest. I even listened to some podcast where all these brawl players are saying it is the new brawl so..
It's Brawl 2.0. People are saying it isn't. Of course, it's not exactly Brawl and has a lot of things that make it better - that's what makes it 2.0.
 

Bladeviper

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It does look like brawl come on now lol be honest. I even listened to some podcast where all these brawl players are saying it is the new brawl so..
and ive listen to podcasts saying the opposite, your point? its different then brawl its different the melee, and its different then 64. Let the game come out and the meta evolve before dismissing it
 
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Dr. James Rustles

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and ive listen to podcasts saying the opposite, your point? its different then brawl its different the melee, and its different then 64. Let the game come out and the meta evolve before dismissing it
Every competitive Smash player I know in my state has said it's very close to Brawl. :p

What the hell does the meta have to do with game engine? The game engine is static. We're so unlikely to find an awesome cancel or mobility exploit to such a degree that I will say we won't.
 
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Bladeviper

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Every competitive Smash player I know in my state has said it's very close to Brawl. :p

What the hell does the meta have to do with game engine? The game engine is static. We're so unlikely to find an awesome cancel or mobility exploit to such a degree that I will say we won't.
you know what i done here, we obviously wont agree on this and its pointless to argue.
 
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