SoulPech
Smash Master
i'm good at dubs.
i also think juu is coming too.
i also think juu is coming too.
-
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Air Bud: Sky High- HYPE overflowing! Are you ready? - July 27th, 2013 - Columbus, OH
- Thread starter SoulPech
- Start date
ravemaster47
Smash Ace
Ok. We have to leave kinda earliesh... so the sooner singles get started, the better off I'll be. Lol.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I would, but I promised Shen that I would team with him if I did doubles.
... Well, see though.
What's The Point
Smash Master
Team with Zinoto. Let him get 1st in something.
ravemaster47
Smash Ace
Hmmm.... I may not be having to leave early from the event. I will find out soon enough.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
if he has no partner I'd be down real talk, just hard to get in contact with him
if not, then Loe1 or Jstm dont really care XD
Oblivion
Smash Journeyman
Team with me.
Maestro_
Court Composer
I'm still open for a P:M teammate guys.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Ugh.... I'd be tempted to go if I could team with Ally cuz that'd be fun.
I can beat anyone in the midwest east in PM at this point and have won the only teams event I entered, but I dunno. Brawl stagelist is silly and PM is bracket only.... maybe if Dr. X goes and drives me and I can team with Ally to guarantee pay for the trip.
I need to teach midwest about Swiss format so people have more options. Swiss is so good. Where is alphazealot when you need him D:
SoulPech
Smash Master
OS, can you message me about "Swiss" format? No idea what it is, and i'm curious.
Oblivion
Smash Journeyman
Swiss can't work for big turnout events.
SP, Swiss is basically just everyone plays everyone. A giant round robin.
Swiss may be more feasible in Smash4 on the 3DS though.
SP, Swiss is basically just everyone plays everyone. A giant round robin.
Swiss may be more feasible in Smash4 on the 3DS though.
What's The Point
Smash Master
No, in Swiss everyone does not play everyone. It goes by rounds and players gain/lose points per game and then you match their next games based on that. It's the same idea but you essentially eliminate sets because of score differences.
Oblivion
Smash Journeyman
Ah, that makes more sense. So how many sets usually happen?
Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament
Swiss would not work unless.
1. You fully understand how the system works
2. Have a mass amount of setups
3. The ability to print rounds and standings
All of these are essential in order to make a swiss event work.
Swiss would not work unless.
1. You fully understand how the system works
2. Have a mass amount of setups
3. The ability to print rounds and standings
All of these are essential in order to make a swiss event work.
SoulPech
Smash Master
I actually read up on Swiss during work. It does look intriguing, but the issue is with setups. I don't think there's enough setups for the Swiss format. It is definitely something to consider though.
ravemaster47
Smash Ace
Oh lord. Swiss just screams a huge mess.
What's The Point
Smash Master
I don't see why you need more setups. Overall it's about the same number of sets and you can't bottleneck in Swiss.
SoulPech
Smash Master
True. I can definitely experiment that in future tournaments. for now i'll leave everything the way it is.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Oblivion doesn't know what Swiss is. -_-;;
Swiss has a LOT of variations, so you'll get a different response depending on what people are used to, but in a nutshell:
Round Robin = everyone plays everyone
Swiss = everyone plays everyone that is on par with their skill, with skill being determined by record in said event
The scoring system is VERY IMPORTANT for Swiss. Like the single most important thing. Keep that in mind.
Swiss is designed to be used with larger events (or smaller events with longer games) as it essentially gives you the same results as Round Robin in a fraction of the time. Round Robin is better in every way other than time. Swiss saves time by having people play people with the same "skill level" or record as them until there is one obvious winner.
For our purposes, we will use a group of 8 players in a tournament for simple math.
The first round is entirely random unless pre-seeded. The good news for Swiss is that the pairing doesn't matter too much in the first round unless it's heavily, heavily skewed; while people may complain it won't affect overall results.
Soul vs. Overswarm
Ally vs. Kel
Juu vs. Metroid
Dr.X vs. Tako
Let's say that's round 1 at random. For our purposes the scoring system will be set wins rather than game wins. This is an important distinction and if you plan on doing swiss in the future you should think hard about it and run some numbers.
So far it's no different than an unseeded bracket! Then the results come in:
Winners: Overswarm, Ally, Metroid, Dr. X
Losers: Soul, Kel, Juu, Tako
My score is essentially "1" while Tako has a score of "-1". Ditto for all the other winners/losers.
You then pair people by score randomly. You make an effort not to play the same person two times in a row, and NEVER three times in a row.
Overswarm plays Ally [ally wins]
Metroid plays Dr. X [metroid wins]
Soul plays Juu [Soul wins]
Kel plays Tako [Kel wins]
Score afterwards:
Ally 2-0
Metroid 2-0
Overswarm 1-1
Dr. X 1-1
Soul 1-1
Kel 1-1
Juu 0-2
Tako 0-2
See what next round will be?
Ally vs. Metroid
Overswarm vs. Dr. X
Kel vs. Soul
Juu vs. Tako
Keep in mind that OS doesn't have to face Dr. X because he had a 1-0 score then moved to 1-1 while soul and kel both had 0-1 to 1-1. Where you were is irrelevant, only where you are and who you played counts.
Ally wins
Overswarm wins
Kel wins
Juu wins
Ally 3-0
Metroid 2-1
Overswarm 2-1
Kel 2-1
Dr. X 1-2
Soul 1-2
Juu 1-2
Tako 0-3
After the third round we have a "clear winner" in Ally. This can be when the game ends, but often there are a pre-determined amount of rounds. So what happens if we called this a 5 round tournament?
Ally has 3-0 and you start matching from the top down, so since he has no pairing he'd either get a bye (if there were odd pairings) and gain a point or if you have an even number he would play someone from the next skill group (2-1).
Ally has already played both Metroid, Kel, and myself, so he would play someone at random from that group (in this case Kel).
same problem with 3 1-2's and 1 0-3. Tako has played Juu and Dr. X, so by default he plays Soul.
Ally vs. Kel
Overswarm vs. Metroid
Dr. X vs. Juu
Tako vs. Soul
Ally wins
Overswarm wins
Juu wins
Soul wins
Ally 4-0
Overswarm 3-1
Metroid 2-2
Kel 2-2
Dr. X 1-3
Soul 2-2
Juu 2-2
Tako 0-4
Now it's about to be the final round!
I have the best record after Ally, so we play by default. Had Metroid won, he would play Ally again even though they had played before; who you played is never more important than record.
Ally vs. Overswarm
Metroid vs. Kel
Soul vs. Juu
Dr. X vs. Tako
We see some repeats now! That's perfectly fine and inevitable in smaller swiss tournaments.
Overswarm wins
Metroid wins
Juu wins
Dr. X wins
Overswarm 4-1
Ally 4-1
Metroid 3-2
Juu 3-2
Kel 2-3
Dr. X 2-3
Soul 2-3
Tako 0-5
Now we run into some of the issues with the Swiss format. The tournament is now done; we've accomplished the 5 rounds we set out to do. Because we did more than we'd normally do to determine a clear winner some oddities occur! These are important to plan for.
For one, I'm tied with Ally!
Ally has beaten: Overswarm, Kel, Metroid, Kel again
Overswarm has beaten: Ally, Soul, Dr. X, Metroid
What do?
There's several schools of thought on this. Some say "Play again!" as a tie breaker, but that's a little sloppy and in Swiss you could have a LOT of tie breakers. Most would tell us to use our normal tie breaker routine: head to head (we're tied), then game count, then rematch if necessary.
Breaking ties can get REALLY complicated because Swiss is so unique. Most organizations actually share the tied spots. In a tournament format, Ally and I would get 1st together, sharing the prize money for 1st and 2nd place. In a 60/30/10 split and $10 entry, 1st would get 48 and 2nd would get 24. In this case Ally and I would both get $36 if we shared placements. This is the fastest way to resolve ties, although poor Metroid and Juu would get $4 each.
Another problem is Juu.
Juu has beaten: Tako, Dr.X, and Soul.
Metroid has beaten: Juu, Dr.X, Kel.
But Metroid had to play both myself and Ally (tied for first place), while Juu had Metroid as his most difficult match!
This can be hard to swallow for bracket players in a similar way to people who get bracket wrecked feel when watching someone get a free path to the finals. Ultimately the rationale is Metroid had the potential to do better but choked towards the top while Juu choked earlier on and worked his way back up. The fact that they are placed together may seem unfair because one had easier matches than the other, but they earned those matches over time. Assuming the results weren't odd, they're actually placed correctly together. Metroid would win in any sort of tiebreaker scenario, but earned his record. It just feels wrong because of what we are used to, but is accurate in this hypothetical scenario.
One popular way of breaking ties is to actually break ties based on opponent's performance to solve that very problem. Metroid would add up the record of all his opponents (Juu, Dr. X, Kel, OS, Ally) and compare it to Juu's. Metroid's group has a higher score together, so he'd win the tie breaker.
If you are counting, a tie breaker in this fashion between me and Ally would be 11-9 for Ally vs. 11-9 for OS.
If you want to read more into tie breaking:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie-breaking_in_Swiss_system_tournaments
The trick to solving ties in Swiss ultimately resides in a flowchart similar to what we have for pools. No "contact the TO", but rather a "this first, this second, so on so forth" ultimately ending in something that cannot possibly tie.
Swiss tournaments are super fast for determining general skill though if you just want to go until someone is a "clear winner" (like Ally when he was 4-0 in the above example). For 32 people you need only 5 rounds. Binary logarithms! Just divide the number of players by 2 until you're down to 1.
32 - 16 - 8 - 4 - 2 (after the last round you'd have 1 winner)
Advantages to Swiss:
-Faster than bracket in many situations
-Everyone gets to play, no one is knocked out
-When you're using "known groups", it determines skill accurately and gives you way more time for other things; we don't need a bracket to know that Ally will beat a 4 seed in first round of winners, right?
-All the matches are literally of equal skill; in the Lexington tournament I had to play Kero, who got 2nd, earlier than someone else had to play Kero and I got 9th. I could have beaten everyone at the tournament other than maybe 3 people, one of which I beat in pools. "Bad luck" like that doesn't happen in Swiss and you get opportunities to bring yourself back.
Disadvantages to Swiss:
-high variety in ways to use it can result in confusion
-tie breaking can be fussy, but when isn't it?
-requires a randomizer, which can be difficult
-You can't assign rounds until ALL the rounds are done. This is a biggin'. For tournaments with the right amount of setups it's no big deal, but if you're lacking? You gotta be on the ball.
quick example:
32 people in Swiss tournament.
10 setups.
20 people playing at once leaves 12 available.
This means that as those 10 pairs are finishing, the 6 other get to come in. If those pairs don't finish quickly, every pair of 10 has to tap their foot and wait for them to be done and THEN wait to be assigned new matches.
It's not that big of a deal if you're ready for it. All it takes is an Excel spreadsheet in a laptop and a randomizer. But you have to know what you're doing, otherwise it'll take you 10 minutes to call out the matches and do everything all over again. For smash tournaments this is a HUGE downside. You'd still finish faster than bracket, but the downtime is irritating.
If you're still reading that means you interested in Swiss so I'm going to tell you about accelerated pairings. This is awesome and is PERFECT FOR SIDE EVENTS, ESPECIALLY ONES YOU WANT TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
In a standard swiss system of 8 players you need 3 round to get a "winner" and after the second round you would have two 2-0's, 4 1-1's, and 2 0-2's.
In "accelerated pairings" you simply add one point to any player in the "top half" for the first two rounds for pairing purposes only.
Soul vs. Overswarm
Ally vs. Kel
Juu vs. Metroid
Dr.X vs. Tako
Winners: Overswarm, Ally, Metroid, Dr. X
Losers: Soul, Kel, Juu, Tako
Overswarm 2-0
Ally 2-0
Metroid 2-0
Dr. X 2-0
Soul 0-1
Kel 0-1
Juu 0-1
Tako 0-1
Overswarm plays Ally [ally wins]
Metroid plays Dr. X [metroid wins]
Soul plays Juu [Soul wins]
Kel plays Tako [Kel wins]
Ally 4-0
Overswarm 2-1
Metroid 4-0
Dr. X 2-1
Soul 1-1
Juu 0-2
Kel 1-1
Tako 0-2
Ally vs. Metroid
Overswarm vs. Dr.X
Soul vs. Kel
Juu vs. Tako
This would then end the tournament. While it doesn't seem like a big deal with 8 people (same round #), you can see how the divide between us got much larger earlier on. Keep in mind these additional points are for pairing only. up above Ally is really 2-0 and I'm really 1-1, but for the entirety of the event those added points are used.This means that if I win against Dr. X and Metroid loses to Ally, our scores would be:
Ally 5-0
Metroid 4-1
Overswarm 3-1
Dr. X 2-2
It's much clearer and places much more emphasis on the earlier rounds with the assumption that no good player is going to lose his first two rounds at random, so let's not waste time and make the good people play each other faster.
There are a LOT of swiss systems (Amalfi is fun), so go ahead and look into it. The McMahon system would be good for pre-determined skill groups (like if there was a ranking system already in place). Most people determine the number of rounds to either be the number required to have a clear winner (binary logarithm) or to ensure that players with a record of X losses or better will be ranked in the top 8, generally one loss.
Occasionally they'll move the top 8 to a single elimination bracket afterwards.
Swiss has a LOT of variations, so you'll get a different response depending on what people are used to, but in a nutshell:
Round Robin = everyone plays everyone
Swiss = everyone plays everyone that is on par with their skill, with skill being determined by record in said event
The scoring system is VERY IMPORTANT for Swiss. Like the single most important thing. Keep that in mind.
Swiss is designed to be used with larger events (or smaller events with longer games) as it essentially gives you the same results as Round Robin in a fraction of the time. Round Robin is better in every way other than time. Swiss saves time by having people play people with the same "skill level" or record as them until there is one obvious winner.
For our purposes, we will use a group of 8 players in a tournament for simple math.
The first round is entirely random unless pre-seeded. The good news for Swiss is that the pairing doesn't matter too much in the first round unless it's heavily, heavily skewed; while people may complain it won't affect overall results.
Soul vs. Overswarm
Ally vs. Kel
Juu vs. Metroid
Dr.X vs. Tako
Let's say that's round 1 at random. For our purposes the scoring system will be set wins rather than game wins. This is an important distinction and if you plan on doing swiss in the future you should think hard about it and run some numbers.
So far it's no different than an unseeded bracket! Then the results come in:
Winners: Overswarm, Ally, Metroid, Dr. X
Losers: Soul, Kel, Juu, Tako
My score is essentially "1" while Tako has a score of "-1". Ditto for all the other winners/losers.
You then pair people by score randomly. You make an effort not to play the same person two times in a row, and NEVER three times in a row.
Overswarm plays Ally [ally wins]
Metroid plays Dr. X [metroid wins]
Soul plays Juu [Soul wins]
Kel plays Tako [Kel wins]
Score afterwards:
Ally 2-0
Metroid 2-0
Overswarm 1-1
Dr. X 1-1
Soul 1-1
Kel 1-1
Juu 0-2
Tako 0-2
See what next round will be?
Ally vs. Metroid
Overswarm vs. Dr. X
Kel vs. Soul
Juu vs. Tako
Keep in mind that OS doesn't have to face Dr. X because he had a 1-0 score then moved to 1-1 while soul and kel both had 0-1 to 1-1. Where you were is irrelevant, only where you are and who you played counts.
Ally wins
Overswarm wins
Kel wins
Juu wins
Ally 3-0
Metroid 2-1
Overswarm 2-1
Kel 2-1
Dr. X 1-2
Soul 1-2
Juu 1-2
Tako 0-3
After the third round we have a "clear winner" in Ally. This can be when the game ends, but often there are a pre-determined amount of rounds. So what happens if we called this a 5 round tournament?
Ally has 3-0 and you start matching from the top down, so since he has no pairing he'd either get a bye (if there were odd pairings) and gain a point or if you have an even number he would play someone from the next skill group (2-1).
Ally has already played both Metroid, Kel, and myself, so he would play someone at random from that group (in this case Kel).
same problem with 3 1-2's and 1 0-3. Tako has played Juu and Dr. X, so by default he plays Soul.
Ally vs. Kel
Overswarm vs. Metroid
Dr. X vs. Juu
Tako vs. Soul
Ally wins
Overswarm wins
Juu wins
Soul wins
Ally 4-0
Overswarm 3-1
Metroid 2-2
Kel 2-2
Dr. X 1-3
Soul 2-2
Juu 2-2
Tako 0-4
Now it's about to be the final round!
I have the best record after Ally, so we play by default. Had Metroid won, he would play Ally again even though they had played before; who you played is never more important than record.
Ally vs. Overswarm
Metroid vs. Kel
Soul vs. Juu
Dr. X vs. Tako
We see some repeats now! That's perfectly fine and inevitable in smaller swiss tournaments.
Overswarm wins
Metroid wins
Juu wins
Dr. X wins
Overswarm 4-1
Ally 4-1
Metroid 3-2
Juu 3-2
Kel 2-3
Dr. X 2-3
Soul 2-3
Tako 0-5
Now we run into some of the issues with the Swiss format. The tournament is now done; we've accomplished the 5 rounds we set out to do. Because we did more than we'd normally do to determine a clear winner some oddities occur! These are important to plan for.
For one, I'm tied with Ally!
Ally has beaten: Overswarm, Kel, Metroid, Kel again
Overswarm has beaten: Ally, Soul, Dr. X, Metroid
What do?
There's several schools of thought on this. Some say "Play again!" as a tie breaker, but that's a little sloppy and in Swiss you could have a LOT of tie breakers. Most would tell us to use our normal tie breaker routine: head to head (we're tied), then game count, then rematch if necessary.
Breaking ties can get REALLY complicated because Swiss is so unique. Most organizations actually share the tied spots. In a tournament format, Ally and I would get 1st together, sharing the prize money for 1st and 2nd place. In a 60/30/10 split and $10 entry, 1st would get 48 and 2nd would get 24. In this case Ally and I would both get $36 if we shared placements. This is the fastest way to resolve ties, although poor Metroid and Juu would get $4 each.
Another problem is Juu.
Juu has beaten: Tako, Dr.X, and Soul.
Metroid has beaten: Juu, Dr.X, Kel.
But Metroid had to play both myself and Ally (tied for first place), while Juu had Metroid as his most difficult match!
This can be hard to swallow for bracket players in a similar way to people who get bracket wrecked feel when watching someone get a free path to the finals. Ultimately the rationale is Metroid had the potential to do better but choked towards the top while Juu choked earlier on and worked his way back up. The fact that they are placed together may seem unfair because one had easier matches than the other, but they earned those matches over time. Assuming the results weren't odd, they're actually placed correctly together. Metroid would win in any sort of tiebreaker scenario, but earned his record. It just feels wrong because of what we are used to, but is accurate in this hypothetical scenario.
One popular way of breaking ties is to actually break ties based on opponent's performance to solve that very problem. Metroid would add up the record of all his opponents (Juu, Dr. X, Kel, OS, Ally) and compare it to Juu's. Metroid's group has a higher score together, so he'd win the tie breaker.
If you are counting, a tie breaker in this fashion between me and Ally would be 11-9 for Ally vs. 11-9 for OS.
If you want to read more into tie breaking:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie-breaking_in_Swiss_system_tournaments
The trick to solving ties in Swiss ultimately resides in a flowchart similar to what we have for pools. No "contact the TO", but rather a "this first, this second, so on so forth" ultimately ending in something that cannot possibly tie.
Swiss tournaments are super fast for determining general skill though if you just want to go until someone is a "clear winner" (like Ally when he was 4-0 in the above example). For 32 people you need only 5 rounds. Binary logarithms! Just divide the number of players by 2 until you're down to 1.
32 - 16 - 8 - 4 - 2 (after the last round you'd have 1 winner)
Advantages to Swiss:
-Faster than bracket in many situations
-Everyone gets to play, no one is knocked out
-When you're using "known groups", it determines skill accurately and gives you way more time for other things; we don't need a bracket to know that Ally will beat a 4 seed in first round of winners, right?
-All the matches are literally of equal skill; in the Lexington tournament I had to play Kero, who got 2nd, earlier than someone else had to play Kero and I got 9th. I could have beaten everyone at the tournament other than maybe 3 people, one of which I beat in pools. "Bad luck" like that doesn't happen in Swiss and you get opportunities to bring yourself back.
Disadvantages to Swiss:
-high variety in ways to use it can result in confusion
-tie breaking can be fussy, but when isn't it?
-requires a randomizer, which can be difficult
-You can't assign rounds until ALL the rounds are done. This is a biggin'. For tournaments with the right amount of setups it's no big deal, but if you're lacking? You gotta be on the ball.
quick example:
32 people in Swiss tournament.
10 setups.
20 people playing at once leaves 12 available.
This means that as those 10 pairs are finishing, the 6 other get to come in. If those pairs don't finish quickly, every pair of 10 has to tap their foot and wait for them to be done and THEN wait to be assigned new matches.
It's not that big of a deal if you're ready for it. All it takes is an Excel spreadsheet in a laptop and a randomizer. But you have to know what you're doing, otherwise it'll take you 10 minutes to call out the matches and do everything all over again. For smash tournaments this is a HUGE downside. You'd still finish faster than bracket, but the downtime is irritating.
If you're still reading that means you interested in Swiss so I'm going to tell you about accelerated pairings. This is awesome and is PERFECT FOR SIDE EVENTS, ESPECIALLY ONES YOU WANT TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
In a standard swiss system of 8 players you need 3 round to get a "winner" and after the second round you would have two 2-0's, 4 1-1's, and 2 0-2's.
In "accelerated pairings" you simply add one point to any player in the "top half" for the first two rounds for pairing purposes only.
Soul vs. Overswarm
Ally vs. Kel
Juu vs. Metroid
Dr.X vs. Tako
Winners: Overswarm, Ally, Metroid, Dr. X
Losers: Soul, Kel, Juu, Tako
Overswarm 2-0
Ally 2-0
Metroid 2-0
Dr. X 2-0
Soul 0-1
Kel 0-1
Juu 0-1
Tako 0-1
Overswarm plays Ally [ally wins]
Metroid plays Dr. X [metroid wins]
Soul plays Juu [Soul wins]
Kel plays Tako [Kel wins]
Ally 4-0
Overswarm 2-1
Metroid 4-0
Dr. X 2-1
Soul 1-1
Juu 0-2
Kel 1-1
Tako 0-2
Ally vs. Metroid
Overswarm vs. Dr.X
Soul vs. Kel
Juu vs. Tako
This would then end the tournament. While it doesn't seem like a big deal with 8 people (same round #), you can see how the divide between us got much larger earlier on. Keep in mind these additional points are for pairing only. up above Ally is really 2-0 and I'm really 1-1, but for the entirety of the event those added points are used.This means that if I win against Dr. X and Metroid loses to Ally, our scores would be:
Ally 5-0
Metroid 4-1
Overswarm 3-1
Dr. X 2-2
It's much clearer and places much more emphasis on the earlier rounds with the assumption that no good player is going to lose his first two rounds at random, so let's not waste time and make the good people play each other faster.
There are a LOT of swiss systems (Amalfi is fun), so go ahead and look into it. The McMahon system would be good for pre-determined skill groups (like if there was a ranking system already in place). Most people determine the number of rounds to either be the number required to have a clear winner (binary logarithm) or to ensure that players with a record of X losses or better will be ranked in the top 8, generally one loss.
Occasionally they'll move the top 8 to a single elimination bracket afterwards.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Oh, and new post because that last one is a monster:
http://smashboards.com/threads/pool...aster-than-double-elimination-bracket.324691/
If you're interested in non-bracket formats, look into pools only. Everyone gets way more matches, TVs open up for friendlies faster, the tournament ends SOONER, you get a more clear cut winner, and instead of one finals round you get an entire POOL of finalists.
MAN pools only is awesome. Better than Swiss even because there's no natural bottleneck that can occur in Swiss if you're waiting for pairing information.
Did I mention that in Pools Only you don't get screwed for having a bad matchup? Because that's true in pools only. Don't know the Fox vs. Falco matchup? Who cares unless you randomly get multiple Falcos in your pool! There's some leeway here!
I love it so much.
http://smashboards.com/threads/pool...aster-than-double-elimination-bracket.324691/
If you're interested in non-bracket formats, look into pools only. Everyone gets way more matches, TVs open up for friendlies faster, the tournament ends SOONER, you get a more clear cut winner, and instead of one finals round you get an entire POOL of finalists.
MAN pools only is awesome. Better than Swiss even because there's no natural bottleneck that can occur in Swiss if you're waiting for pairing information.
Did I mention that in Pools Only you don't get screwed for having a bad matchup? Because that's true in pools only. Don't know the Fox vs. Falco matchup? Who cares unless you randomly get multiple Falcos in your pool! There's some leeway here!
I love it so much.
What's The Point
Smash Master
Alternative summary for swiss is "everyone plays the same number of games."
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
But the cool part is that every round is supposed to be of equal skill, while bracket is literally supposed to be "this guy is supposed to dominate this other guy".
Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
OS, it would be much easier to simply just print off matches and post them on a designated wall(s) for players to find their next opponent for each round. Rather than trying to call out each match and wasting more time.
Set ups are key if you choose to run a swiss system.
50 man tournament with six rounds of swiss.
8 set ups = 8.1 hours of swiss' estimated completion
10 set ups = 7 hours of swiss' estimated completion
12 set ups = 6 hours of swiss' estimated completion
15 set ups = 5 hours of swiss' estimated completion
These estimated time frames don't include the cut to top 8 play outs.
Also I did not include the possibility of people dropping after each round.
This isn't even including the time it would complete to attempt to do doubles. You have 0 set ups available during the time swiss is going on.
Not to mention while swiss is going on the ability to play friendlies is pretty much out of the question.
idk swiss just seems like it would be somewhat of a mess and VERY reliant on how many set ups and people your tournament brings in.
I could get behind Pools only though, it seems very interesting.
(pretty sure my math is correct, someone correct me if I am wrong, I take into account a full 24 minutes per set and a 10 minute buffer period)
Set ups are key if you choose to run a swiss system.
50 man tournament with six rounds of swiss.
8 set ups = 8.1 hours of swiss' estimated completion
10 set ups = 7 hours of swiss' estimated completion
12 set ups = 6 hours of swiss' estimated completion
15 set ups = 5 hours of swiss' estimated completion
These estimated time frames don't include the cut to top 8 play outs.
Also I did not include the possibility of people dropping after each round.
This isn't even including the time it would complete to attempt to do doubles. You have 0 set ups available during the time swiss is going on.
Not to mention while swiss is going on the ability to play friendlies is pretty much out of the question.
idk swiss just seems like it would be somewhat of a mess and VERY reliant on how many set ups and people your tournament brings in.
I could get behind Pools only though, it seems very interesting.
(pretty sure my math is correct, someone correct me if I am wrong, I take into account a full 24 minutes per set and a 10 minute buffer period)
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
OS, I talked to Zinoto last night, I'm with him for PM. Sorry otherwise I wouldn't have cared had it been you loe1 or jstm.
Overswarm
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Swiss is more difficult only because it's more complicated; if you're used to it it's waaaaay better than bracket. It does suck for friendlies though; it's best used for side events imo. Like if you had two friendly TVs at this tournament and someone said "Items tournament?" you could do an accelerated swiss tournament with 16 people really fast compared to something like double elimination bracket.
But pools only better.
But pools only better.
Overswarm
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Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
Oh I totally understand, I really enjoy swiss as I am a MtG player that attends tournaments (or at least used to) fairly often.
What's The Point
Smash Master
SP, since your interested, I say do PM doubles as Swiss. Maybe only if OS shows so he can guide you along since he's clearly the most into it. And if it goes well do Singles too.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
you could always sell beads
Overswarm
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You ever use accelerated swiss? I've only run that once and it wasn't enough people to be a big deal.
you could always sell beads
I just finished making a big batch for the Nintendo exchange on reddit! Guy got like $50 worth. I'd sell bead art here, but I only knew about this tournament last saturday so I didn't have time to make stuff in advance. If anyone wants bead art though they can always order it.
I'm good at PM, I just don't enjoy it enough to really go and play just for PM, and as a matter of principle I avoid Brawl tournaments with poor stagelists.
Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
Nope, haven't tried it. I do like the concept of it since it somewhat reduces variance by quite a bit.
SoulPech
Smash Master
I'll Do Swiss in PM Doubles only if OS attends.
Overswarm
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LOOKS LIKE YOU WON'T BE DOING SWISS THANKS TO ALLY >:|
thought of another advantage to swiss:
You know exactly how many rounds are going on and when the next will be, so if you have 8 sets left and 10 TVs you could run a second, samller event in the downtime during seeding and the like.
thought of another advantage to swiss:
You know exactly how many rounds are going on and when the next will be, so if you have 8 sets left and 10 TVs you could run a second, samller event in the downtime during seeding and the like.
Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
I could possibly help out with Swiss P:M doubles depending on if you REALLY want to do it.
SoulPech
Smash Master
What's The Point
Smash Master
Well I only suggested that because I figured no one else knew swiss and would want to help.
Unless you're actual goal is to use that as a way to persuade OS to go. A more compelling argument would probably be that Ike got nerfed in 2.6 so OS could maybe win doubles with LOE1.
Unless you're actual goal is to use that as a way to persuade OS to go. A more compelling argument would probably be that Ike got nerfed in 2.6 so OS could maybe win doubles with LOE1.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Oh I need a partner for P:M as well. I main Sheik and second Zard. I understand the game/know how to abuse Sheik so I'd be a solid partner. Is anyone interested? Holler.