Sukai
Smash Champion
Thank you.
The first things you can do is see if the playstyle works for you, try it out.
Then after that, we can discuss new methods and the effectiveness of them.
You can also contribute to the effectiveness chart.
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Advantage McCloud- Smash Tips and PNF UPDATED 2/24
- Thread starter Sukai
- Start date
The first things you can do is see if the playstyle works for you, try it out.
Then after that, we can discuss new methods and the effectiveness of them.
You can also contribute to the effectiveness chart.
_X_
Smash Lord
I don't get it?
A play style that works for you?
The game is limited. So is every character. We're dealing with Fox, a high risk high reward type. He has blazing strengths and blinding weaknesses. Abuse the pros and avoid the cons, that's all you can really do. At this is in his meta-game's development we need to start looking at collecting frame data to really see what he can do.
Chileno4Live
Smash Ace
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I've been thinking of some approaches which might help us get better at approaching, i got 2 ideas so far. And i hope i can find some more. Not sure if they are useful, but it's at least something i gotta try out. Then if i got those approaches in my game i'll fight some people online with minimum lag and see if i can use them effectively. I'll post a video (with bad quality unfortunatly) to show my approaches and you guys can discuss those. I think you guys won't recognize them, but i want to do something. I want to help getting Fox better. So i'm doing at least something >_<
Sukai
Smash Champion
Yeah. Its and alternative playstyle, not a better one. Before we construct this to be better than the contemporary style, we have to level it in effectiveness. In a sense if this playstyle for one reason or another can't work for you, then either come up with some new ideas, or go back to the norm.
Take action then, don't just go about saying it. if you can't then find some one who can and will do it for you, or get the materials to do it yourself.
I'll be doing frame research on this playstyle as soon as I can get the proper tools to do so. In case you don't know, I'm serious about this.
Chileno4Live
Smash Ace
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May i ask what your gonna do with the Frame Research/Data? I've seen you mentioning it a couple of times so i want to know what exactly your talking about 
I also appreciate your hard work for this. I really want to make Fox better. I'll try to play your style VS my friends and see what the difference is with my normal playstyle. Thnx again for your hard work ^_^
I also appreciate your hard work for this. I really want to make Fox better. I'll try to play your style VS my friends and see what the difference is with my normal playstyle. Thnx again for your hard work ^_^
Nikenick
Smash Journeyman
I've played him on WiFi, and his strategy is just so different then the Fox's I've played.
It's really annoying to play against, since he's hard to punish and just overall keeps alot of pressure on you. I'd say this strategy is effective until people get alot of experience against it, but it can catch people off-guard.
It's really annoying to play against, since he's hard to punish and just overall keeps alot of pressure on you. I'd say this strategy is effective until people get alot of experience against it, but it can catch people off-guard.
Sukai
Smash Champion
I'll be checking out frame data to perfect timing or some moves, and see where fox is at a better advantage, which if he is, more things can be done rather than the standard method.
The frame data will help properly customize this new playstyle.
The frame data will help properly customize this new playstyle.
Conviction
Human Nature
Well, I'm gonna shut up and listen. This IS going somewhere. Good job, go for it.
EnjoiLove
Smash Rookie
Well Knux, as you already know from yesterday, you have my full support on Project NEW Fox. It seriously opened up a new door to me. After the fight with our ditto matches, I've become to experience the strategies you suggested, and using them. Though I have not used them on anyone except you, I feel rather thrilled to trying out Fox again. Looking forward to helping the development of the NEW Fox.
Erucolindo86
Smash Rookie
Now that you mention it, I have found my playstyle gravitating more and more to this style over time too, and with your thread I'll probably be looking into it further, but I have to be honest, I recognize this playstyle... It feels very much like my D3. Only problem I see is, if you are looking to adopt this as a play-style, there are quite simply characters out there who are better suited for it. But, for the Fox community, I think having a new style that can be interchanged on the fly like this works well as a great mindgame during matches. Changing gears can really throw off an opponent quickly. After a few days of concentrated testing I have observed the following: (Again, feel free to comment or add, I'm decent but I know you guys know much more)
If an opponent has gained an upper-hand in the match, switching to this style should effectively reset both of your offensive momentums, allowing you to reset and recompose yourself while your enemy adjusts speeds.
Lots of fun against Marths!
If your opponent begins punishing the neutral air, SHAD becomes more viable.
Personally, this style puts me in closer proximity to the opponent, due to the forced approaches. With enemies in your face, remember that poor old Firefox. If you catch a roll or some ending lag it's a free 30%! (just use it horizontally to minimize the chances of being punished)
As Nikenick said, it is slow and it is annoying, which is one of my favorite aspects of the style. Especially against more aggressive opponents, this style can really frustrate people, I've seen it happen often in the past couple of days. Once this happens mistakes are likely to follow from overzealous foes, giving you more time to punish
If an opponent has gained an upper-hand in the match, switching to this style should effectively reset both of your offensive momentums, allowing you to reset and recompose yourself while your enemy adjusts speeds.
Lots of fun against Marths!
If your opponent begins punishing the neutral air, SHAD becomes more viable.
Personally, this style puts me in closer proximity to the opponent, due to the forced approaches. With enemies in your face, remember that poor old Firefox. If you catch a roll or some ending lag it's a free 30%! (just use it horizontally to minimize the chances of being punished)
As Nikenick said, it is slow and it is annoying, which is one of my favorite aspects of the style. Especially against more aggressive opponents, this style can really frustrate people, I've seen it happen often in the past couple of days. Once this happens mistakes are likely to follow from overzealous foes, giving you more time to punish
Sukai
Smash Champion
Getting into higher levels of play with the AllisBrawl ladder, I can make some good changes to New Fox, both offensive and defensive. After a bit more insight, I'll be making a big update in those sections. The Effectiveness Chart will also be edited.
And Scotu has given me his support by giving me access to his frame data and other things. As soon as I contact him, I can customize this thing even better.
And Scotu has given me his support by giving me access to his frame data and other things. As soon as I contact him, I can customize this thing even better.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
I'm pretty much online all the time. Gtalk: scotu42, MSN: scotu42@gmail.com AIM: scotu42 irc: #awesome @ irc.rizon.net
Conviction
Human Nature
It's an Idea but maybe Dash Dancing maybe useful in this new playstyle?
Sukai
Smash Champion
Dash Dancing is like a Fox staple.
You should always have it, regardless of the playstyle you adopt.
Conviction
Human Nature
Well you said this should a NEW playstyle so I was wondering if dash dancing is viable.
Chileno4Live
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Are you going to upload any videos of this new playstyle? I want to see how effective it is, i'm curious. Maybe i can use that playstyle then.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Of course!
As soon as I get the materials, I'll be more than happy to post vids.
Conviction
Human Nature
Well I played KnuxRouge and I think this is a pretty good legit playstyle. I won't change from mine because I'm too accoustum to it and add on, unless push comes to shove. This sounds like a great defensive though. So think to myself if we could find a offensive playstyle and add this to make a great Hybrid Fox. So don't knock this guys.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
well it seems to be coming along nicely. i want vids lol
Sukai
Smash Champion
I may have started this alone, but I in no way intended this to be a strict solo project. If you have any ideas, or otherwise tips for contribution, please go ahead and say it.
We are a community, after all.
Conviction
Human Nature
That's the thing I don't know the offense Fox playstyle staples I guess. To me it's FFing all of your airials besides your Fair. Run up on them. Get in thier grill. I just Illision away when under pressure and no one seems to catch it. I watch them while doing all these flurry of attacks. Most people think I randomly SH Bair FF but I do it for a reason and it always works. Let's see we could find the way to the Hybrid Fox then we could move on I think.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Hm, M@V's fox is pretty offensive, perhaps notes can be taken from him...
Sukai
Smash Champion
Due to all the hype about making use of a grab release, I added in a Grabbing section to new strategies.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
best thing i've done w/ grab release was let them go offstage and in the moment of confusion gimped them.
Chileno4Live
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I prefer doing Dthrow > Fair alot more. Just because it's a good combo. Not guaranteed, but better than a Grab Release. Though, Grab Release should be used as a confusion like AZEN did in higher percents, and punish them with a Usmash is pretty good.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Thats something.
Mindgames are always something and the more the merrier in Fox's case.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yeah mindgames are, but Fox has no absolutes after a grab release. unless on maybe the motherkids.
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
Exactly.
I don't understand the big hype about it...I was taught this by Pierce7d back at CH 4.5, and no one really cared too much, but once AZEN does it, EVERYONE is hopping on Grab Releases...
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
cause its Azen, we all know that already lol
No....this thread....just doesn't make sense. It kinda bothers me.
And if you didn't know that some characters (like peach, snake and marth) can pull guaranteed aerial grab-release combos on chars like wario and meta knight, you obviously have not done enough research on this game and need to go do some.
Getting good at smash requires dedication and knowing your ****, m2k has both.
If you think m2k couldn't put two and two together and think, "wow, Mk is susceptible to aerial grab releases! Fox could probably kill me with an aerial grab release to a hyphen smash!"
then you're stupid. M2k isn't. It would be obvious.
But m2k and azen BOTH know that fox can't guarantee an aerial release because HE'S TOO SHORT.
Knowing this, either m2k thought that azen would go smart and just pummel-->throw him and he tried to escape, or he just plain messed up.
Or, somehow, azen found a way to get a guaranteed aerial release (pfft, yeah, right.)
knuxrouge, i appreciate what you're trying to do, it's just not working.
You're not gonna change fox's metagame and make him higher on the tier list by making an "alternative moveset tier list" and then saying "this works on so-and-so character" without explaining anything.
The camper section was really good though, if anything you should develop on that. Or make whatever you're trying to do/say and how to do it clearer because it needs to be
/rant
And if you didn't know that some characters (like peach, snake and marth) can pull guaranteed aerial grab-release combos on chars like wario and meta knight, you obviously have not done enough research on this game and need to go do some.
Getting good at smash requires dedication and knowing your ****, m2k has both.
If you think m2k couldn't put two and two together and think, "wow, Mk is susceptible to aerial grab releases! Fox could probably kill me with an aerial grab release to a hyphen smash!"
then you're stupid. M2k isn't. It would be obvious.
But m2k and azen BOTH know that fox can't guarantee an aerial release because HE'S TOO SHORT.
Knowing this, either m2k thought that azen would go smart and just pummel-->throw him and he tried to escape, or he just plain messed up.
Or, somehow, azen found a way to get a guaranteed aerial release (pfft, yeah, right.)
knuxrouge, i appreciate what you're trying to do, it's just not working.
You're not gonna change fox's metagame and make him higher on the tier list by making an "alternative moveset tier list" and then saying "this works on so-and-so character" without explaining anything.
The camper section was really good though, if anything you should develop on that. Or make whatever you're trying to do/say and how to do it clearer because it needs to be
/rant
Sukai
Smash Champion
Well, yeah.
If a superior player can pull something off in what is considered the highest level of play, the it's worth looking into, don't you think?
Even if it can't be exploited offensively, we should still get into it and see what negative effects Fox's grab release can specifically have on him.
Duh genius.
I didn't make this to place him higher, and I know that simple research alone isn't going to place him higher. And this is a still going project, so why are you judging it like it's complete?
I already have some back up here, and I used my this playstyle on good players, one being a very active member of the Fox boards. i have also done a few ladder matches in All is Brawl and won effectively with New Fox. The main reason I didn't provide a description on the Effectiveness chart, because it is always subject to change, and in doing that I'd have to provide different explanations. I'm not just fighting the character once and then finding results. I'm fighting the character several times played by several people, so in the event that the playstyle doesn't show as much merit the second or third time around (or even vise versa), I can easily change the effectiveness chart. When I feel the the new playstyle won't change it's effectiveness on a character, I will then provide an explanation (Like what I did with Falco and Diddy, of course thats assuming you payed attention).
And one more thing, if you don't like it, then thats fine, but don't patronize my intelligence talking to me like I'm some child with biased optimism, I put alot to thought and research into this, and I'm not done.
If you don't like it, then kindly leave, ignore it.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Chileno4Live
Smash Ace
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I think the best way for me to go is to remain silent until something is gonna happen. I think the guide is pretty good but yeah it's my opinion and i'm not really someone who can judge this with my little experience. I do appreciate the fact your trying to help, that's so awesome ^_^
Sukai
Smash Champion
I don't blame anyone for their skepticism.
It's natural for people to reject something new when they feel that the same old-same old is just fine.
It's gonna be slow, but I will post some videos, that I vow. I think thats the main thing needed here.
It's natural for people to reject something new when they feel that the same old-same old is just fine.
It's gonna be slow, but I will post some videos, that I vow. I think thats the main thing needed here.
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
Well... it isn't really new. It's just a twist. I wouldn't market it as "new" if I was doing it. But if you want to encourage people to modify what already works then that's fine too as you'll never discover anything amazing until you go the extra mile.
I would spend more time ignoring your hate posts and just keep going until you find your revolution. Nobody is gonna like you if you just keep saying "let's stop doing that and start doing this". It's like imposing a new religion on somebody. They're not gonna like it. This is why you're getting met with flames.
So keep it down, treat everything you're doing like a journal, and respond only to your more valuable critics.
I would spend more time ignoring your hate posts and just keep going until you find your revolution. Nobody is gonna like you if you just keep saying "let's stop doing that and start doing this". It's like imposing a new religion on somebody. They're not gonna like it. This is why you're getting met with flames.
So keep it down, treat everything you're doing like a journal, and respond only to your more valuable critics.
Conviction
Human Nature
I'm tried of seeing people saying Fox is ***** Falco. Fox out does Falco in every area but camping,and CGing. That's why the match-up is 45-55 Falco's Favor.