advancing diddys metagame: spiking

[Lazee]

I've been working on some new diddy tricks with bananas lately and I've figured out how to get consistant spikes in matches. This has helped me win sooo many more matches because if I get at least one early kill with a spike,it helps that that's at least 1 stock where they don't live til 150 lol.
And then I can play campy because it forces them to approach.this could potentially change a lot of matchup ratios because characters like snake and ddd get hit by this verrry easily.ok anyways there's @ least 2 set ups I can think of right now but with creativity I'm sure we can this of more.
The vids will be up when I remember my youtube password >.<

Setup 1-forced banana trip>dash attack>up tilt> dair
Video:

Description: this will work almost everytime simply because after the uptilt if they don't airdodge they are spiked,and if they airdodge too late they are spiked,which means its diddys job to buffer a jump and if u don't see the airdodge coming,you have a spike and/or an early edgehog kill.
Note: at very early percents,it is sometimes possible to hit with two uptilts,it is advised to take advantage of this because the higher percent before the spike,the less time they have to recover.

Spacing: you want to hit your oppenent with the beginning hitbox that keeps the opponent in the attack so you can buffer the up tilt while they are in hitstun and we have no lag.if u happen to get this around 0-8percent you can usually get two uptilts in.with heavys you always get 3 uptilts from 0-8% as well.

Combo potential:if you hit with the spike and they don't tech(they usually won't)fast fall>dtilt>jab>grab>fthrow> is a 58% combo on metaknight from 0,I'm not sure who else it works on but I'm sure it works on a lot of characters.

Video:

Setup 2- throw away from stage> peanut pop(uncharged)> dair
Video:

Description:this won't work everytime,but if you play someone who recovers high,or airdodges a lot,this is a great way to set up a spike.

Note:@ mid percent (60-70) after the throw offstage you can peanut pop and then throw a banana offstage which sets them up to be gimped bescause it forces them to HAVE to go to the only safe spot,whcih is where u go to hit them with a fair/bair stage spike/or dair for the spike.

I'm sure there's more set ups than this we just need to be creative,bananas give diddy so many options,we can practicly trip our opponent in the the exact spot we need to be to set spikes up,we should be the best character to spike with in the game! Let's face it,diddy can't kill well,but if we implement this into our metagame early kills will make diddy at least number 2 on the tier list! Even if u don't believe these work,at least give them a try so you can see how great these are.

 

[Bellioes]

*Taking Susas Advice ^_^*

I really like the first setup. Everything is a true combo if its done at 0% EXCEPT the Utilt>Dair and the Dair (unteched)>Dtilt part. But if it hits, even the Dtilt>Jab>Grab is inescapable unless they have godly DI. I really like it. I beleive the second one is easily esaped but... Ill try them both out in friendlies and see how they work for me.

My Input;

We can already easily spike Snakes stupid enough to recover from below but I wonder just how effective the first set up is on heavies. Id say itll just become more of a mindgame thing. You either predict the air dodge and delay the Dair or hope they dont react in time and buffer the Dair with the jump.

I was also thinking of mixing in banana throws to mess with the opponent even more. You can throw the banana up after the Utilt/DA and then spike them. You can even buffer the jump and then throw the banana down. If they air dodge, spike them. If they dont, then spike anyways cause the banana will have hit them

Its situational but Im not gonna write it off as useless just yet.

 

[Ingulit]

Hate to burst your bubble, but your opponent can do a lot of things instead of airdodging in the first situation; Metaknight's U-Air, D-Air, and Shuttle Loop come to mind, as well as Marth's Up-B and Mario and Luigi's N-Airs. Many Metaknights will use U-Air or D-Air to escape from aerial combos, and I know other characters have moves to break out as well.

The only true "Ur gonna get spiked" situation I can think of is the Wario Grab Release hanging off the edge > D-Air. The second situation is good, in that it forces your opponent's hand as to how they recover... But it's something we've been doing for a long time, and it's not usually that effective in terms of setting up spikes against lot of characters. Against predictable recoveries, sure, but that's what we've been using it for in the first place

EDIT: I do want to say baiting the airdodge to spike is good, but it's risky if the character has fast moves they can use instead.

 

[Bellioes]

True, I completely forgot about that lol
I was too into trying to do what Susa suggested in the tacticle boards ^_^

Also, I was under the impression that a Dthrown banana to FFed Dair is a combo if you start at the right height. Anyone mind clarifying?

 

[Lazee]

I actually thought about dthrowin a nana to fastfalled fair to get kills earlier,its working on cpus atmm cuz I have no humas to test on

And yes certain chars with 2-4 frame moves could hit first but that's only 5-6 characters.we still have 32 characters that this will work on.that's good enough for me

 

[Lazee]

Edit:double post

Also after the up tilt u can bait an attack,shield it,and grab or attack oos.which means you can use this to condition an oppenent to either attack after the uptilt,but if he gets shield grabbed next time he won't attack out of it,and THAT'S when u start using the spike.imo this is tech chasing out of an utilt.condition the oponent to air dodge or not do anything by baiting an attack after it and shield grabbing,then on the next stock u throw in the down an and score an early kill.either way this is great way to get early kills and can turn a losing match into a winning one, characters that are fat like dedede get destroyed by this because the have nothing in the air fast enough to stop it so they have to airdodge or get spiked no matter what,
These so far in my mand have nothing in the air fast enough to stop this
Dk has nothing
Ddd has nothing
Snake has nothing
Ganon has nothing(if he gets locked @ all he's dead I think)
Link has nothing
Rob has nothing
Pit has nothing

Already that's enough to change mu ratios with ddd snake and rob for high and top tier matchups,
This set up is really good.

 

[chimpact]

They could DI away from the uptilt. Diddy is one of the slowest in the game, so he can't dair in time. You could always just dash attack to spike anyway if you space it right.

 

[Lazee]

^ up tilt locks til 24% o.o

 

[rvkevin]

Edit:double post
Already that's enough to change mu ratios with ddd snake and rob for high and top tier matchups,
This set up is really good.

I think its overrated, anyone good is going to DI it back onto the stage, so all you get is another followup if you do connect it...I would rather just go for the Uair for risk-free percentage.

Edit: Sorry, didn't read all of it, I thought it was setups for the Slam Dunk combo...I still prefer something else in these situations though...

 

[Lazee]

Lolwut
How is a tilt lock not risk free?
Stop theory crafting and actually try it

 

[Lazee]

Get ***** by phone internet second dp ftw \o/

Vids will be up in like an hour hopefully

 

[SuSa]

"Dk has nothing
Ddd has nothing
Snake has nothing
Ganon has nothing(if he gets locked @ all he's dead I think)
Link has nothing
Rob has nothing
Pit has nothing"

Snake has grenades that I think MAY work, cypher (which will let us DI onto the stage)

Link has a really fast nair that may work

Pit has up-B that may **** up your spacing

DK has invincibility on his up-B IIRC. or was it SA? I forget....

Note that dash attack in itself can actually setup for a spike (I still do that) so utilt isn't really needed in that. But in this case, most people already know about this.

Also Setup 2 is extremely situational, I've actually tried it a TON... :/

Thanks for trying Bellioes but this is something I think has already been covered by most Diddy's...

Off topic a bit:
Is it possible to double drop a banana into a catch > throw? If so you can hit with banana > hit with banana > hit with banana > follow up

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

What is SA susa? And yes, DK has invinc. on his ^B.

Where are you getting that third banana hit from? I don't get when you say "double drop a banana into a catch".

 

[Player-1]

I've tried the first situation sooo many times over wifi and offline play, and I don't think once have I gotten it, they just airdodge it perfectly, personally I think the slam dunk combo is better and hits more often, 2nd situation is too situational, most good players won't get hit by it.

 

[Lazee]

If they are airdodging perfectly you need to wait for them and then spike.the move isn't about being a combo,its about conditiong and baiting and airdodge to get the spike.

 

[SuSa]

Then can't they just airdodge and drift onto the stage? The spike may hit, but it won't kill....also since they don't go THAT high into the air, you can empty SH to bait an airdodge, then grab them as they land and throw them off stage or fsmash, etc.

EDIT:
I've actually tried this stuff, therefore I'm not just shrugging it off. just pointing some things out.

 

[Lazee]

Well if people aren't satisfied with these,the boards needs to at least try to delve into some sort of way to get spikes in high level play.I don't think we can rise any higher without some way we can kill below 130
Also if they get spiked into the ground then you ff dtilt jab fthrow and that's a 58% combo.
Man I wish I had my youtube password....

 

[Player-1]

Well if people aren't satisfied with these,the boards needs to at least try to delve into some sort of way to get spikes in high level play.I don't think we can rise any higher without some way we can kill below 130

5 words

SINGLE NANER LOCKING

 

[Lazee]

^lol I'm working on that as well.
I've yet to see anyone in tourny use it though.lol I can imagine adhd being the first to do it in gf of some major tourny and the crowd going crazy lol.diddy is seriously underrated even still

 

[Le_THieN]

Spike KOs and low-percentage gimps occur most frequently and with the most success when they are least expected. It's perfectly fine for you to have setups that may or may not unfold into these situations, but going for a spike of some sort at every turn of the match neutralizes the element of surprise.

There is no substitute for prudent spacing and zoning combined with a solid ground and aerial game. Spikes and gimps ought to be treated as a mix-up option; victory in a set or match-up should never have to hinge on something that can't be guaranteed.

 

[Lazee]

I completely agree with ^ this wasn't meant to be a go to move,just to use as a mix up or as a mindgame to lessen diddys workload

 

[FOXYB]

aha! i dont tilt nearly as much as i should!

 

[AvaricePanda]

5 words

SINGLE NANER LOCKING

Hello.

Stop being lazy and learn it, lol.

 

[Dekar173]

You can guarantee spikes using instant throw setups as well.


F/Bthrow > FH instant throw > spike


Just hope their recovery isn't amazing (AKA MK, Rob, Pit, etc.) or else you just pulled off a pretty badass move all for nothing ;P

 

[Lazee]

^ ur talking about on a platform like battlefield with the banana on the platform or the stage? Super gimmicky but I'm trying it at this tourny today lol

 

[AvaricePanda]

I've found that baiting an airdodge in some way in general is a decent set-up for a spike. When some characters without quick frontal aerials are trying to recover, shooting peanuts can bait an airdodge and you can spike afterwards. If they don't airdodge, just keep shooting peanuts, lol.

 

[Lazee]

Lol I got uptilt to spike twice @ the tournament,one on marth another on a falco
Lost to rich brown and I shoulda beat bigfoot I two stocked him in 1:45 on yoshis first match and then got river killed twice on japes lol,no johns.
It works though.ill have tourny vids tomorrow whoo! Also got two 3 stocks in tourny xD

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

We PT mains are discussing you in a Matchup.

Come down to put in your 2 cents.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7920575

If you are wondering why I did not post this in your MU thread, is because I accidently clicked this one.

 

[jumpman9793]

Wow...this has helped me so much! I just won 4 matches in a row with it!

 

[AvaricePanda]

I've found that I've been incorporating spikes a lot more into my game lately. Well, not a lot more, but Diddy has a decent-sized spike and it's good for punishing linear recoveries.

As far as on-stage setups go, I usually just do the "slam dunk combo" (dash attack to SH D-air) which seems to work at low-mid percents. I've tried U-tilt->D-air without much success; most characters have a good enough N-air and D-air, and the people I've fought tried to fall with an aerial to beat a U-tilt (such as MK, Luigi, Falco, in Snake's case grenades, etc.)

Punishing off-stage air-dodges with D-air works if they're somewhat close to the stage, but I can't find a way to successfully force air-dodges. Peanut popgun works half the time, but the opponent will sometimes do a quick aerial to beat the peanut and not make themselves as punishable. Same thing with a thrown banana; they don't always air-dodge and try to catch it, so to be safe, I usually just F-air afterwards (or camp onstage) in both instances.

The way I've been able to somewhat consistently get spikes in games is by punishing characters with bad/predictable recoveries. Snake/Sonic are what come to mind at first (I know there's more). Snake is kind of obvious; there's no real way to force him to recover low or close to the stage unless he DIs really badly, but if you force him to use a C4, you can attempt to spike after he hits himself with the C4. Sonic's recovery isn't bad by any means, but the spring obviously only sends you vertically, so whenever he's directly below the stage he's most likely going to use the spring, which lets you spike him.

 

[ice_cream_man]

I just thought of this but havnt tried it. I wonder if you could end a banana lock into a glide toss to barrel spike at the end of a stage? Don't have a wii right now

 

[Kaptain Kong]

if you space it the right distance from the edge, you can do a regular spike (even fast falled)