Advanced Techniques, Who needs em? oh..YOU!?

[fr0st2k]

the majority of you havent played the game, yet you complain as if you've played it for years.

You have no idea what the meta game will be. Go ahead, discuss all you freakin like, but please, tell me what the hell is with all the *****ing and complaining. Its as if you've played the game for months, figured out every little detail, and also mastered it!

OK! OK! We all know you've sat at your TV for hours upon hours mastering complex button patterns that make you look cool when you play with fellow "tourney goers". Great. But now you have to accept the fact that those hours were spent for "Melee", not for "Brawl." Accept that the majority of the playerbase will be moving onto Brawl and away from melee. Accept that those countless hours you spent learning 1 idiotic move that is only useful if you play intelligently (which you probably dont), is now no longer useful in anyway.

Brawl is here, so stop dwelling on melee. Melee's time is over. I am (and im sure many others are) way sick of just hearing comparisions to melee. Brawl is released and complaining will do nothing..and it never has done anything. Melee isnt gone either, play that if you think brawl has a lack of techniques to master.

Seriously. the majority of you wasted your time learning stupid techniques instead of trying to learn real mind games. Dont give me the load of crap that advanced techniques were how you did mindgames either. Forcing the player into a inescapable situation, predicting his attack, countering it, quickly adjusting your strategy...thats the real mindgame.

Yes, before you try and ridicule me i understand that advanced techs did open up more opportunties to attack your opponent, but the layer on top of the advanced techs was the mindgame, not the advanced techs themselves.

Brawl opens up many new oppurtunties with the blast back to 64. More aerials, faster hits, more manuevability in the air, crawling, footstool jumping. We might (might!!!!!) not have as many advanced techniques (or the same old ones), but we have many new normal techniques, which stretches the horizon further than melee ever could.

If your disheartened to hear that you wont get to just sit at a tv screen for hours practicing 1 simple combo then stick with melee. If the thought of having to use your brain on the fly, and where coming up with unique strategies tailored to certain situations scares you? stick with melee.

But the rest of us, are ready for brawl

 

[NES n00b]

Why does it matter to you if tourney players deem this game competitive cause obviously you are not one? Is this a sake for the arguement or so you can have some kind of moral high ground against these tourney goers?

I admit that I did not read the whole thing, but when I saw "you have no idea what the metagame is like" and then put tourney goers in quotations, it was obvious that you weren't a tourney goer, but yet are talking about something that would only interest them. What exactly is your goal if you are not going to even participate? If you say you are going to then you better get a much better attitude now.

Edit: LOL, "real mindgames." WTF? God you are such a scrub. I am so sorry I had to laugh. Please, mindgames are just prediction and manipulation of your opponent. It doesn't matter how you do it as long as it is not against tourney rules or laws. You should just stop posting your ignorant opinions now. Enjoy being beaten in Brawl soon as you complain about the new "fake" mindgames. Hahaha. Yes I read about the more options thing, but that was still way too funny.

 

[PanzerOceania]

real mature title man, way to keep the peace. -_-

 

[fr0st2k]

Why does it matter to you if tourney players deem this game competitive cause obviously you are not one? Is this a sake for the arguement or so you can have some kind of moral high ground against these tourney goers?

I admit that I did not read the whole thing, but when I saw "you have no idea what the metagame is like" and then put tourney goers in quotations, it was obvious that you weren't a tourney goer, but yet are talking about something that would only interest them. What exactly is your goal if you are not going to even participate? If you say you are going to then you better get a much better attitude now.

Edit: LOL, "real mindgames." WTF? God you are such a scrub. I am so sorry I had to laugh. Please, mindgames are just prediction and manipulation of your opponent. It doesn't matter how you do it as long as it is not against tourney rules or laws. You should just stop posting your ignorant opinions now. Enjoy being beaten in Brawl soon as you complain about the new "fake" mindgames. Hahaha.

hey, send me a pm now, as soon as brawl comes out, ill play you. i gaurentee ill beat you. 100% gaurentee. why? because i know exactly what type of person you are. You're exactly as i described. the noob who practiced wavedashing for hours upon hours, but never bothered learning how to play the game.

*edit

also, i dont think you understood the reason for that description. A majority of people here believe being able to do advanced techniques makes them a better player. No! Many people believe that doing advanced techniques lets them do mindgames. No! Many people here also believe that not having the advanced techniques will subtract from the games competitive nature. No! People have such an ignorant idea of what mindgames are. Its whisper down the lane on this site.

The original people on this site came up with an advanced endgame to smash. The coined the terms. Then new players came, they saw videos, it inspired them. The ignorant fools that they were made them think, "hey, if i learn that, I can be good too." These ignorant fools learned it, and started to think THEY were new authorities. Then neared fools came, and these fools learned from the old fools, and the circle continued and continues to this day.

As i told you. You never learned to play the game, only how to copy someones playing style. Thats why i know i'll beat you.

 

[psyniac_123]

real mature title man, way to keep the peace. -_-

True; but very good post.

Still; that won't save us *pulls up Flame Shield for OP and self*

 

[NES n00b]

hey, send me a pm now, as soon as brawl comes out, ill play you. i gaurentee ill beat you. 100% gaurentee. why? because i know exactly what type of person you are. You're exactly as i described. the noob who practiced wavedashing for hours upon hours, but never bothered learning how to play the game.

LOL, I go to regional tournies. Don't be dumb. You are probably someone who has gone to mall tournies at most am I right? Please. I actually travel to tournies, too. Placing decently.

I usually only play against people, too. XD lolz, you are way off. But ok, if you really want to play me or whatever.

 

[PanzerOceania]

and now it's become an e-p*nis contest... >_>

settle this the Smash way, less talk, fight it out when you both get the game.

 

[NES n00b]

and now it's become an e-***** contest... >_>

Yeah. . . . . . <_< true that. But hey, I am just as tired as these "stop complaining" as much as the "i am complaining" threads. They are all dumb. I just especially hate these because they talk about things that don't even concern them. So freaken irratating.

 

[fr0st2k]

LOL, I go to regional tournies. Don't be dumb. You are probably someone who has gone to mall tournies at most am I right? Please. I actually travel to tournies, too. Placing decently.

I usually only play against people, too. XD lolz, you are way off. But ok, if you really want to play me or whatever.

Sir, i would absolutely LOVE to play you.

 

[fr0st2k]

Yeah. . . . . . <_< true that. But hey, I am just as tired as these "stop complaining" as much as the "i am complaining" threads. They are all dumb. I just especially hate these because they talk about things that don't even concern them. So freaken irratating.

care to extrapolate your point? cause right now, it has absolutely no backing whatsoever.

"they talk about things that don't even concern them" is the point in talking about.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Yeah. . . . . . <_< true that. But hey, I am just as tired as these "stop complaining" as much as the "i am complaining" threads. They are all dumb. I just especially hate these because they talk about things that don't even concern them. So freaken irratating.

yeah I know, I blame it all on most of us hearing about Brawl but not actually HAVING it, so we don't know everything, AND we can't play it on our free time yet so have WAY to much time to b*tch and post 1000 pointless topics.

 

[Yigguth]

 

[NES n00b]

care to extrapolate your point? cause right now, it has absolutely no backing whatsoever.

"they talk about things that don't even concern them" is the point in talking about.

Don't make a freaken thread about it. >_<

The point is that there is a guy from the competitive community (usually, someone who doesn't even go to regional tournies) and he complains about whatever is missing. We already know all this and it doesn't help. Of course, he doesn't look for new things are try any new approaches to stuff, but just gives up and is melodramatic. Still doesn't help. Then, three casual players each make a thread saying "stop complaining cause we still have mindgamez lawlz" and it doesn't help cause of course we have mindgames, but it would be weaksauce if basic play is all there is (thankfully it doesn't say so). Also, these casual players don't know much about the competitive scene in the first place and they still won't participate in the tourney scene so it is all stupid.

All in all, what I and you just did just clutter the boards, but at least I didn't make a whole new thread for something that has been said 50,000,000,000 times. >_>

 

[fr0st2k]

Don't make a freaken thread about it. >_<

The point is that there is a guy from the competitive community (usually, someone who doesn't even go to regional tournies) and he complains about whatever is missing. We already know all this and it doesn't help. Of course, he doesn't look for new things are try any new approaches to stuff, but just gives up and is melodramatic. Still doesn't help. Then, three casual players each make a thread saying "stop complaining cause we still have mindgamez lawlz" and it doesn't help cause of course we have mindgames, but it would be weaksauce if basic play is all there is (thankfully it doesn't say so). Also, these casual players don't know much about the competitive scene in the first place and they still won't participate in the tourney scene so it is all stupid.

All in all, what I and you just did just clutter the boards, but at least I didn't make a whole new thread for something that has been said 50,000,000,000 times. >_>

aha wonderful, exactly what i thought youd say. Something that proved your ignorance!

This post was directed precisely at YOU, and people like you. You are the ones worried that brawl won't be your precious melee 2. You are the ones who are too ignorant to understand that brawl (having the same core gameplay, and same developer as 64 and melee) won't be "weaksauce" even if it doesnt have advanced techniques. You don't understand that MINDGAMES is all you need in the game to make it competitive. Have you EVER PLAYED CHESS for gods sake!

Not to mention you missed the entire point of my post, which was to help people like you get over the fact that brawl is NOT melee 2.0. That brawl offers many opportunities to expand mindgames (which is all advanced techniques did in the first place), and brawl will give you a new gaming experience; one you missed out on in melee due to being a imitative copycat who simply practiced advanced techniques thinking you were getting better.

 

[PanzerOceania]

LOL at great image macros.

 

[NES n00b]

Read the Mookie thread about madness. You will see my posts being optimistic.

Second, ummm, your old assumption of me was also wrong cause I am like a Link/CF main so I can't really ummm, practice that many techs. lol

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

hey, send me a pm now, as soon as brawl comes out, ill play you. i gaurentee ill beat you. 100% gaurentee. why? because i know exactly what type of person you are. You're exactly as i described. the noob who practiced wavedashing for hours upon hours, but never bothered learning how to play the game.

*edit

also, i dont think you understood the reason for that description. A majority of people here believe being able to do advanced techniques makes them a better player. No! Many people believe that doing advanced techniques lets them do mindgames. No! Many people here also believe that not having the advanced techniques will subtract from the games competitive nature. No! People have such an ignorant idea of what mindgames are. Its whisper down the lane on this site.

The original people on this site came up with an advanced endgame to smash. The coined the terms. Then new players came, they saw videos, it inspired them. The ignorant fools that they were made them think, "hey, if i learn that, I can be good too." These ignorant fools learned it, and started to think THEY were new authorities. Then neared fools came, and these fools learned from the old fools, and the circle continued and continues to this day.

As i told you. You never learned to play the game, only how to copy someones playing style. Thats why i know i'll beat you.

You're such a thick headed idiot frost.

In NES's defense, you can't just think you can come to terms with beating someone in a game you have never played as well. Contradiction much?

You may assume that we are playing based off of another player that we idolize, but that isn't the case. We play based off of what delivers the most results in the current meta-game. Technical skill is a demanding aspect that exist in casual and competative play, whether or not it can be rendered useless by another players skill. Advanced players are players that have surpassed that basics of smash, and decided to move towards a more technical and precise game.

And as a person who has played Brawl, you're not going to be whooping anyone. The mechanics of the game feel completely different from Melee in every respect. Even still, I have the upmost confidence in NES.

There is nothing else I can say about you frost. You're blatant hypocrisy just makes you look like a f*cking idiot.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

As i told you. You never learned to play the game, only how to copy someones playing style. Thats why i know i'll beat you.

Wait, so it your not playing like the 'competitive smashboarders' that means your playing like anybody else? Copying and personalizing the play style of someone who wins tournaments is not a problem, aren't athletes just looking up to other athletes. I think your trying way too hard to be unique, its a gimmick even. Mind games are over rated, it just means knowing how to counter and manipulate your opponent. Mind games can be reworded as Experience. Your assuming way too much of NESnoob, its pathetic really.

 

[fr0st2k]

You're such a thick headed idiot frost.

In NES's defense, you can't just think you can come to terms with beating someone in a game you have never played as well. Contradiction much?

You may assume that we are playing based off of another player that we idolize, but that isn't the case. We play based off of what delivers the most results in the current meta-game. Technical skill is a demanding aspect that exist in casual and competative play, whether or not it can be rendered useless by another players skill. Advanced players are players that have surpassed that basics of smash, and decided to move towards a more technical and precise game.

And as a person who has played Brawl, you're not going to be whooping anyone. The mechanics of the game feel completely different from Melee in every respect. Even still, I have the upmost confidence in NES.

There is nothing else I can say about you frost. You're blatant hypocrisy just makes you look like a f*cking idiot.

i know ill beat him because i know i dont need hours of practice at the game to get good at it. I believe that i know the fundamentals of smash, and video games in general, better than NES Noob, and thus, I'll learn brawl faster, and be better than him at it.

I understand completely that its a different game. What the **** do you think i've been trying to say you f*cking idiot.

That is my point exactly, you f*cking idiot. That most of you focused your "experience" solely on melee's advanced techniques, and not on developing adaptive strategy. This is why you find it so hard to accept that you are losing Melee.

Where you will be starting a brand new game, I will be starting Brawl half way, because I understand SMASH, the game's core concepts BETTER than you do.

Thats not to say I never took the time to learn advanced techniques. I do know them. And i know them well. I have plenty of experience with the game, both competively and casually.

If you don't believe me, time will tell, PM me as well, and i assure you, I'll beat you as well.

 

[NES n00b]

i know ill beat him because i know i dont need hours of practice at the game to get good at it. I believe that i know the fundamentals of smash, and video games in general, better than NES Noob, and thus, I'll learn brawl faster, and be better than him at it.

I understand completely that its a different game. What the **** do you think i've been trying to say you f*cking idiot.

That is my point exactly, you f*cking idiot. That most of you focused your "experience" solely on melee's advanced techniques, and not on developing adaptive strategy. This is why you find it so hard to accept that you are losing Melee.

Where you will be starting a brand new game, I will be starting Brawl half way, because I understand SMASH, the game's core concepts BETTER than you do.

Thats not to say I never took the time to learn advanced techniques. I do know them. And i know them well. I have plenty of experience with the game, both competively and casually.

If you don't believe me, time will tell, PM me as well, and i assure you, I'll beat you as well.

That is what you don't get. There is an attitude and understanding that is more fundamental then advance techs that average competitive people have over casuals. And you don't have the right mindset to make it work. You might win (maybe) the first couple days, but I will definitely be better later if you don't change your mindset.

 

[fr0st2k]

Wait, so it your not playing like the 'competitive smashboarders' that means your playing like anybody else? Copying and personalizing the play style of someone who wins tournaments is not a problem, aren't athletes just looking up to other athletes. I think your trying way too hard to be unique, its a gimmick even. Mind games are over rated, it just means knowing how to counter and manipulate your opponent. Mind games can be reworded as Experience. Your assuming way too much of NESnoob, its pathetic really.

why are you quoting "competitive smashboarders," i never used that term, so therefore youre quoting yourself.

I never said it was a problem to copy it, as long as are simply adapting the techinque to your own playstyle.

I never even meant to imply that this was never done my many of the "competitive smashboarders." What i did imply was that the majorities playstyle was selfinflated, and of lower skill than those they were imitating. The professionals have a profound understanding of smashes core gameplay. Their ability to predict and respond , aka mindgames, well exceeds any of yours. WHY? because they actually played the game. They didnt skip the entire first step and move straight to advanced techniques.

Mind games ARE THE GAME. they aren't OVERRATED. By saying that you just said that Melee is an overrated game. The core gameplay of Smash allows you quick movement, quick response, quick adaptation, and good manuevability: And all of this in the heat of battle. The game is BUILT upon mindgames. I can't believe you just said that.

Experience is NOT mindgames.

Think of it this way

A person can sit and try and learn how to play Beethoven on the piano. Lets say they have a video of a professional playing it. It zooms in on the hands. The person trying to learn it sits there for hours, days, weeks, copying the movement of the hands. 3 months later, he perfects it. He can play it perfectly, from beginning to end.

Now, they switch it on him. They say, now play this song, and give him some sheet music and a tune. He concentrates, tries, and fails miserably. Why? because he never took the time to learn how to play, never learned how to read notes, never learned the right hand positions, or the numerous other things needed to learn the piano.

BUT, tell him to play beethoven again, and BOOM...its perfect.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Where you will be starting a brand new game, I will be starting Brawl half way, because I understand SMASH, the game's core concepts BETTER than you do.

What makes you so special? Game's concept?... please enlighten me. BTW

' is not a quotation mark.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

i know ill beat him because i know i dont need hours of practice at the game to get good at it. I believe that i know the fundamentals of smash, and video games in general, better than NES Noob, and thus, I'll learn brawl faster, and be better than him at it.

I understand completely that its a different game. What the **** do you think i've been trying to say you f*cking idiot.

That is my point exactly, you f*cking idiot. That most of you focused your "experience" solely on melee's advanced techniques, and not on developing adaptive strategy. This is why you find it so hard to accept that you are losing Melee.

Where you will be starting a brand new game, I will be starting Brawl half way, because I understand SMASH, the game's core concepts BETTER than you do.

Thats not to say I never took the time to learn advanced techniques. I do know them. And i know them well. I have plenty of experience with the game, both competively and casually.

If you don't believe me, time will tell, PM me as well, and i assure you, I'll beat you as well.

You honestly think that we don't know the fundamental aspects of the game?

Just because we play the game in a different fassion doesn't mean we have forgotten the basics of smash. If not, it's sole sole reason we play on an advanced level; the basics provide nothing to discover within no increment of time.

Dedication and practice towards certain techniques can help the technical aspect of the game, but in no way help you win without playing wth a solid mindset. Practicing is only the cornerstone to perfection, when has that been a bad thing?


And honestly, you don't know anything. Just because you mastered the basic elements of the game doesn't mean that you'll have the advantage, t jus means you have yet to branch out and become creative with your game play. Your assumptions are just driving you deeper in the hole, and because you previously played another smash games doesn't mean that your skills will be mitigated from said game.

But if you want to challange me, go ahead and feel free. I'll humiliate you like the dozens of people who act as pretentious and cocky as you.

 

[fr0st2k]

That is what you don't get. There is an attitude and understanding that is more fundamental then advance techs that average competitive people have over casuals. And you don't have the right mindset to make it work. You might win (maybe) the first couple days, but I will definitely be better later if you don't change your mindset.

Hey listen man, i have absolutely no hard feelings towards you. I admit, I made assumptions, but only to make points. I have no idea who you are, youre real attitude, or how good you really are. It was all to try and expand on my point.

This attitude youre talking about...i understand it completely. I've been on this board long enough, i've played smash long enough. I've played my share of good players, and WAY too many bad players. I get it.

What i dont get, is what the "understanding that is more fundamental then advance techs that average competitive people have over causuals," is.

skip the attitude part, i get that.

I'll try and guess waht this understanding is. Is it that advanced techniques and mindgames have to be used together to be good? Is it that you have to learn your opponents mindset, play him a few times, understand his playstyle, before you can beat him? Is it that advanced techniques are only used to further your mindgame?

if those arent it, please, i ask you again, explain

 

[NES n00b]

Frost, it is more like we played Chess learning how to read people and using the esoteric rules and mechanics to our advntage while you did really rudimentary checkers. We then start to play checkers, but you did not go deep into the options you have, the mechanics, or reading your opponent, so you lose.

That is what it is really like. <_<

Edit: It is like, that based off past experiences, they learned to gather lots of data gotten from their opponent and guess their patterns pretty accurately. Of course, as they play more, they will do even better reading and manipulating their opponent. They have also learned to switch up some of their patterns so that they themselves cannot be read as easily. While all this is going on, the tourney people have also learned techniques and how to control their character to maximize punishment, allow more options, and to minimize mistakes. At casual level, you don't get to play people that are much better than you so you never improve as fast because of that. You don't know what is really predictable, what is punishable, and just plain do not have that experience. That is what it is.

Of course, they are just not two places. There are many plateaus to reach of skill. To reach that new plateau, you have the mindset to keep practicing the tech parts while also realizing how to read your opponent more effectively and the more effective tatics.

 

[fr0st2k]

You honestly think that we don't know the fundamental aspects of the game?

Just because we play the game in a different fassion doesn't mean we have forgotten the basics of smash. If not, it's sole sole reason we play on an advanced level; the basics provide nothing to discover within no increment of time.

Dedication and practice towards certain techniques can help the technical aspect of the game, but in no way help you win without playing wth a solid mindset. Practicing is only the cornerstone to perfection, when has that been a bad thing?


And honestly, you don't know anything. Just because you mastered the basic elements of the game doesn't mean that you'll have the advantage, t jus means you have yet to branch out and become creative with your game play. Your assumptions are just driving you deeper in the hole, and because you previously played another smash games doesn't mean that your skills will be mitigated from said game.

But if you want to challange me, go ahead and feel free. I'll humiliate you like the dozens of people who act as pretentious and cocky as you.

I'm not attacking you dude. The fact that you take what i said as an insult means i must have hit a nerve or two though. I consistently stated "majority"

Secondly, I'm saying there are a lot more to the basics than you think. Its not just jump, double jump, get back from ledge. I'm talking about the basics of mindgames. It's certainly not something that you learn from the manual.

I'll agree with that vulgar poster above. It does indeed chalk down to experience. And on that note, i'll refer you back to my example with the piano.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Now, they switch it on him. They say, now play this song, and give him some sheet music and a tune. He concentrates, tries, and fails miserably. Why? because he never took the time to learn how to play, never learned how to read notes, never learned the right hand positions, or the numerous other things needed to learn the piano..

Uh? Since when was did linear piano playing become related to a game where it throws option upon option at you every move you make. Even than with your analogy. Do you really think that competitive smashers are going to let someone combo them (apparently I interpret your piano note analogy to doing a combo such as Tekken would have it) hell no. The piano just accepts all commands given to it. Smash is played against a person, the Piano does not fight back.

Geeez... you should have used a Tennis example. But even in tennis or any other competitive sport I suppose, I will eventually learn how to adapt techniques into their core play.
Alone must a person learn how to shoot a basketball, dribble the ball, do a layup, learn to box out, catch, pass...etc in basketball before you can play acceptable.

I know the core of LaCrosse(Smash) I play it for fun, but don't you think that a LaCrosse pro would eventually be better than me in Hockey(Brawl,) they are somewhat similiar sports but entirely different games.

 

[fr0st2k]

Frost, it is more like we played Chess learning how to read people and using the esoteric rules and mechanics to our advntage while you did really rudimentary checkers. We then start to play checkers, but you did not go deep into the options you have, the mechanics, or reading your opponent, so you lose.

That is what it is really like. <_<

lol wut?

no really...you're missing the point. Firstly. Just because chess and checkers are played on the same board, does not mean they share the same core gameplay mechanic. They are completely different. So i don't follow your analogy.

Secondly, i delved just as deep as you did in "chess." This whole post is directed at the people who didnt do so. If you feel you did, stop arguing with me.

I still feel, however, that you would be a rarity.

Another example. I once played a 2v2 against a captain falcon and a ganondorf. My teammate died way too fast. Here i am, up against a pair of shffling fools. I still can't forget how egotistical these two were. "we go to tourneys all the time, yada yada yada, were awesome." First idiot shffls at me, down a's, I block, and throw. His entire game fell apart. "My shffl has a limited range? easily guessed by the height and velocity of my jump? He's positioning himself in the spot where i am landing even before i land to get an attack on me?" too end the story, with rather irrelevant info, with 1 stock left and my partner dead(having taken 2 of my lives), I managed to kill them both once before losing. boohoo.

Yes i realize this type of person is just a complete idiot. But i find that this mentality is all too common and prevalent (especially since the advent of brawl and the mass influx of gamefaqers) on this board.

The above example is only 1 example, there have been many more.

 

[fr0st2k]

Uh? Since when was did linear piano playing become related to a game where it throws option upon option at you every move you make. Even than with your analogy. Do you really think that competitive smashers are going to let someone combo them (apparently I interpret your piano note analogy to doing a combo such as Tekken would have it) hell no. The piano just accepts all commands given to it. Smash is played against a person, the Piano does not fight back.

Geeez... you should have used a Tennis example. But even in tennis or any other competitive sport I suppose, I will eventually learn how to adapt techniques into their core play.
Alone must a person learn how to shoot a basketball, dribble the ball, do a layup, learn to box out, catch, pass...etc in basketball before you can play acceptable.

I know the core of LaCrosse(Smash) I play it for fun, but don't you think that a LaCrosse pro would eventually be better than me in Hockey(Brawl,) they are somewhat similiar sports but entirely different games.

i dont understand youre first few paragraphs...sorry.

Back to your last statement. YES, this is my point, thanks for finally getting on board.

The lacrosse "pro" is a pro because he has mastered all aspects of the game. If we assume lacrosse and hockey share similar important aspects, which relate (as melee and brawl DO) to each other, then we would have to assume the lacrosse pro, WOULD become better than someone who had never bothered to master that certain sports centric skill.

Now lets ask that same question about a lacrosse player who is in highschool. He never really learned that sports centric skill, he just did what his coach told him. He learned how to catch the ball, throw the ball, cradle the ball, and could aim at the goal. But thats all he did. Now we ask him to go play hockey. And he would utterly fail at it, as he never learned that sports centric goal.

My definition of this sports centric goal for Smash, would be mindgames, which would be learned through playing the basics.

I would like to pull a quick 360, as i believe "the basics" has been misinterpreted from my original meaning. From now on, i'll refer to them as .....hand mind coordination. (i know theres some psychological term i cant think of now to describe that). Essentially, it describes the ability to instantly take thoughts from your mind and blindly and instinctively acting with your body. Aka, using the knowledge you have from experience, and being able to utilize it efficiently, automatically and quickly.

Im going way out on a limb here ...but to try and describe these basics im talking about. .. i cant seem to find a better way.



This is my point, reiterated, once again.

 

[masterspeaks]

aha wonderful, exactly what i thought youd say. Something that proved your ignorance!

This post was directed precisely at YOU, and people like you. You are the ones worried that brawl won't be your precious melee 2. You are the ones who are too ignorant to understand that brawl (having the same core gameplay, and same developer as 64 and melee) won't be "weaksauce" even if it doesnt have advanced techniques. You don't understand that MINDGAMES is all you need in the game to make it competitive. Have you EVER PLAYED CHESS for gods sake!

Not to mention you missed the entire point of my post, which was to help people like you get over the fact that brawl is NOT melee 2.0. That brawl offers many opportunities to expand mindgames (which is all advanced techniques did in the first place), and brawl will give you a new gaming experience; one you missed out on in melee due to being a imitative copycat who simply practiced advanced techniques thinking you were getting better.

Not that I care, but your abundant use of ad hominem and 'logic' compelled me to post a response. You seem to be confused about why people are displeased with the loss of advanced techniques in Brawl it is not that they are afraid they will instantly suck at that game, people are concerned that the game will simply be too boring.

You were correct in saying that "advanced techniques offered opportunities to expand mindgames" which is the whole reason a lot of people are unhappy that we are losing the ability to use the techniques. Using your chess insult, it would be analagous to someone making a game called Super Chess that for all intents and purposes was exactly like tic-tac-toe. Sure players could possibly apply basic chess theory from the old game, but Super chess would be simple to the point of tedium.

Last of all, I am not an idiot, I can watch videos, read player analysis/reviews and use personal experience playing SSB/SSBM to form a relatively accurate idea of how Brawl will play. Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a PRODUCT, something I have pre-ordered with my own money. I have no obligation to settle for a PRODUCT that is unsatisfactory in my eyes. Sakurai surely doesn't care what you or I think so long as we pay for our copies. It does not make me any more idiotic for me to consider that Brawl won't be as fun to me as Melee than the nonsense you are spewing.

 

[NES n00b]

The point was you take a really complex game then put them into a simpler game with not even the same game mechanics. They will pick it up quickly and win because of their superior experience of reading people and manipulating people.

A better analogy would be you played Chess with friends while tourney players play with the best who use things like castle and know the better tatics of the game. Just because the tourney players know the advanced parts, doesn't mean they don't know the core components. The only difference is that Smash is not turned based so there will be new muscle memory required in order to play with the different physics engine. =\ But tourney people will be more dedicated to know the ins and outs of it.

Edit: Wow, guy got why people are displeased. We do have to be more patient, though. Some promising things have been shown so there might be good things from Brawl.

 

[fr0st2k]

Not that I care, but your abundant use of ad hominem and 'logic' compelled me to post a response. You seem to be confused about why people are displeased with the loss of advanced techniques in Brawl it is not that they are afraid they will instantly suck at that game, people are concerned that the game will simply be too boring.

You were correct in saying that "advanced techniques offered opportunities to expand mindgames" which is the whole reason a lot of people are unhappy that we are losing the ability to use the techniques. Using your chess insult, it would be analagous to someone making a game called Super Chess that for all intents and purposes was exactly like tic-tac-toe. Sure players could possibly apply basic chess theory from the old game, but Super chess would be simple to the point of tedium.

Last of all, I am not an idiot, I can watch videos, read player analysis/reviews and use personal experience playing SSB/SSBM to form a relatively accurate idea of how Brawl will play. Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a PRODUCT, something I have pre-ordered with my own money. I have no obligation to settle for a PRODUCT that is unsatisfactory in my eyes. Sakurai surely doesn't care what you or I think so long as we pay for our copies. It does not make me any more idiotic for me to consider that Brawl won't be as fun to me as Melee than the nonsense you are spewing.

well sir, you completely missed another point that this thread was trying to make. This is that BRAWL has added a ton of other techniques to help expand upon mindgames. I listed them in my first post, had you actually read it, you may have noticed.

 

[M.K]

OMG Stop Bashing the Casual Players! For christ's sake, we've done nothing wrong. There are only a select few that come out of the casual crowd to voice there opinion against Competitive players, and they do so without the consent of anyone else. Jesus, WE ARENT JUST A GROUP OF PEOPLE. Everyone has their own mind.

 

[fr0st2k]

Edit: Wow, guy got why people are displeased. We do have to be more patient, though. Some promising things have been shown so there might be good things from Brawl.[/QUOTE]

again...why are we arguing? we share the same exact views. And that is precisely what this post was meant to say.

Loss of advanced techniques does not mean loss of mindgames; where mindgames are the core concept and attracting of the smashbrothers franchise.

The addition of other techniques, listed in the first post, coupled with tweaks in physics will more than make up for the lack of techniques.

With that being said, the only REASON you would ever argue back, is if you had a fond attachment to said techniques in melee. IF thats the case, you most likely became too reliant of the techniques, meaning you never bothered learning real mindgames.

Is it gonna click anytime soon?

 

[fr0st2k]

OMG Stop Bashing the Casual Players! For christ's sake, we've done nothing wrong. There are only a select few that come out of the casual crowd to voice there opinion against Competitive players, and they do so without the consent of anyone else. Jesus, WE ARENT JUST A GROUP OF PEOPLE. Everyone has their own mind.

um..thanks for the support, i guess. But i never voiced my opinion against the competitive players, or i never meant to.

<insert above post here?>

 

[Patooty]

LoL.. I haven't been inspired to post because of quack-posts like these in a long time.

OK! OK! We all know you've sat at your TV for hours upon hours mastering complex button patterns

Wait.. who's your audience? The entirety of smashboards? It seems so from your thread title. Anyways... Smash is about anything BUT complex button patterns. You press a button, then a move registers. Being able to do this quickly, or being able to string moves together to make nice combos... I don't see what's wrong with practicing that? Expand please or drop this point.

Seriously. the majority of you wasted your time learning stupid techniques instead of trying to learn real mind games. Dont give me the load of crap that advanced techniques were how you did mindgames either.

Please quote an advanced technique that people waste countless hours on that doesn't have the capabilities to improve on mindgames.

hey, send me a pm now, as soon as brawl comes out, ill play you. i gaurentee ill beat you. 100% gaurentee. why? because i know exactly what type of person you are. You're exactly as i described. the noob who practiced wavedashing for hours upon hours, but never bothered learning how to play the game.

If you think it takes that long to learn to wavedash consistently, you either suck at melee, or you're trying to vastly exaggerate the amount of time it takes to learn to wavedash since without the fact that it takes a hella long time to learn these techniques, your arguments are baseless.

A majority of people here believe being able to do advanced techniques makes them a better player. No!

Please refute this argument: Person A is less skilled than Person A + advanced techniques.

Many people believe that doing advanced techniques lets them do mindgames. No!

Are you saying that being able to move in any direction at any time does not add to mindgames? That being commited to a direction that you're running provides you with as many tools for mindgames as a person who can freely move around?

People have such an ignorant idea of what mindgames are. Its whisper down the lane on this site.

And you're obviously the messiah to lead everyone towards the light. If you think everyone's crazy, and everyone thinks you're the nut, I'd side with the everyone. Can you even open your mind to the fact that you're fighting the losing battle in this argument? Now, why are you on the losing side? Is the world crazy or are you?

The original people on this site came up with an advanced endgame to smash. The coined the terms. Then new players came, they saw videos, it inspired them. The ignorant fools that they were made them think, "hey, if i learn that, I can be good too." These ignorant fools learned it, and started to think THEY were new authorities. Then neared fools came, and these fools learned from the old fools, and the circle continued and continues to this day.

I say to this: Why re-invent the wheel everytime? Let's take a basic IRL examples... not even that of competitive sports. Are you a "fool" for going to school and learning what those before you have already learned? Do you think it makes you smarter to learn these things in school? Thinking that "hey if I can learn this material, maybe I can aspire to be what I want"? Then when you have mastered your field of study, will other fools come and learn from you? Making THEM 2nd generation fools? This "circle" continues to this day - with fools learning from other fools. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST... KNOW THEIR OWN STUFF?

...expand mindgames (which is all advanced techniques did in the first place),

Indeed this is what advanced techs allow people to do. Expand mindgames. Somewhere up in the beginning of my post is you saying something to the effect of "don't give me that crap about how advanced techs allow you to do mindgames". At least pick a stance!

i know ill beat him because i know i dont need hours of practice at the game to get good at it. I believe that i know the fundamentals of smash, and video games in general, better than NES Noob, and thus, I'll learn brawl faster, and be better than him at it.

You don't need HOURS of practice at a game to be good at it? So what do you need then, minutes? Boy the games you've been playing must be shallow as hell. I sure hope that Brawl isn't taken to its meta game in minutes.

Where you will be starting a brand new game, I will be starting Brawl half way, because I understand SMASH, the game's core concepts BETTER than you do.

Do you win at "SMASH"? You seem to have this hate for melee that can only be stemmed by frustration of losing. How well do you actually undertstand "SMASH" for being somebody so frustrated with melee, and so relieved that Brawl is a, seemingly, much simpler game?

If you don't believe me, time will tell, PM me as well, and i assure you, I'll beat you as well.

You can quote me when I'm wrong and I shall eat my words, but YOU WILL NOT BE THE BEST AT BRAWL WITH YOUR CURRENT MINDSET. Stop telling players you will beat them.

Oh yeah, I'll beat YOU.. if you don't believe me time will tell.. or whatever.



EDIT: wow a lot of people are on late tonight. A lot of posts were made during the time it took me to type -_-
Too lazy to edit but will go back and re-read/rebut anything else that comes up.

 

[NES n00b]

Every game that involves interaction between players has mindgames.

The question is how deep is the game. Depth comes from how many (balanced) options and factors to keep in to consideration. If there was just a game where I can dodge or attack, I could still read the opponent to see when he dodges to punish him for it or when he attacks to dodge and/or punish him for it, but would it be much of a game. Not really. So you add movement which adds alot more depth. Then you keep expanding from there. So people think it will not be as complex without these ATs. There is no guarenteed answer either way.

The question is why did you make a thread about this?!?!?!?!?! URGGGGG we have heard this before and also older tourney goers will still beat people who didn't go to tournies. The last sentence are the two arguements. XD

 

[fr0st2k]

Every game that involves interaction between players has mindgames.

The question is how deep is the game. Depth comes from how many (balanced) options and factors to keep in to consideration. If there was just a game where I can dodge or attack, I could still read the opponent to see when he dodges to punish him for it or when he attacks to dodge and/or punish him for it, but would it be much of a game. Not really. So you add movement which adds alot more depth. Then you keep expanding from there. So people think it will not be as complex without these ATs. There is no guarenteed answer either way.

The question is why did you make a thread about this?!?!?!?!?! URGGGGG we have heard this before and also older tourney goers will still beat people who didn't go to tournies. The last sentence are the two arguements. XD

Why? I feel that ive argued, and argued well, many of the points and beliefs a lot of people have brought up in this topic.

Whether you choose to change your opinion or not doesnt bother me. But the text and info is there.

Now i have to spend another 15 minutes retorting the above poster...yay. Good thing i decided to stay up all night to reset my obviously screwed up sleeping schedule

 

[DeltaWolf]

I don't even know what Advanced Techniques are, so i guess that says what a good smash bros player I am. :\ I really think this topic doesn't need this much arguing, and even if you are a good fighter fr0st2k, there is no need to be rude, and that goes for everyone. Just because you play better then someone else doesn't let you disrespect them.

 

[fr0st2k]

LoL.. I haven't been inspired to post because of quack-posts like these in a long time.

quack post...right. However, whether i play you in brawl or not, i will make you eat those words.

Wait.. who's your audience? The entirety of smashboards? It seems so from your thread title. Anyways... Smash is about anything BUT complex button patterns. You press a button, then a move registers. Being able to do this quickly, or being able to string moves together to make nice combos... I don't see what's wrong with practicing that? Expand please or drop this point.

Yes. this was my point, which was overly exagerated by said comment. The complex button patterns i was referring to were advanced techniques. I was implying that learning advanced techniques is indeed, worhtless when talking about brawl. I was also implying, the time you took to master said techniques is also, now worthless, when talking about brawl.

Please quote an advanced technique that people waste countless hours on that doesn't have the capabilities to improve on mindgames.

If you think it takes that long to learn to wavedash consistently, you either suck at melee, or you're trying to vastly exaggerate the amount of time it takes to learn to wavedash since without the fact that it takes a hella long time to learn these techniques, your arguments are baseless.

See above answer. This is a brawl discussion forum. I was implying that we don't need to hear about the advanced techniques from melee, as they have no bearing in brawl.

Please refute this argument: Person A is less skilled than Person A + advanced techniques.

I cannot refute that argument. But you dont win, you just failed with your example.

Refute this argument.

Person A = Good mind games, average advanced techniques
Person B = poor mindgames, great advanced techniques

Person A would have equal or better chance at beating Person B

This is my argument. Your example swings and misses

Are you saying that being able to move in any direction at any time does not add to mindgames? That being commited to a direction that you're running provides you with as many tools for mindgames as a person who can freely move around?

Never said that, never implied it. What i did imply, was that a majority of people fall into the category of "Person B"

And you're obviously the messiah to lead everyone towards the light. If you think everyone's crazy, and everyone thinks you're the nut, I'd side with the everyone. Can you even open your mind to the fact that you're fighting the losing battle in this argument? Now, why are you on the losing side? Is the world crazy or are you?

I'm losing? I also belive a mod made a similar complaint a ways back, and met with a LOAD of controversy. The topic was something like "If you think youre good, youre not." He won his argument. Though it was unfortunately, quickly forgotten.

I say to this: Why re-invent the wheel everytime? Let's take a basic IRL examples... not even that of competitive sports. Are you a "fool" for going to school and learning what those before you have already learned? Do you think it makes you smarter to learn these things in school? Thinking that "hey if I can learn this material, maybe I can aspire to be what I want"? Then when you have mastered your field of study, will other fools come and learn from you? Making THEM 2nd generation fools? This "circle" continues to this day - with fools learning from other fools. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST... KNOW THEIR OWN STUFF?

Lets take your example and flow with it. Do people go to school? Yes, they do. Do they go straight to college or straight into the workplace? Does a 12 year watch a medical show on TV and go to the hospital the next day to operate on someone? No. As you said yourself, we go to school. We learn first. We don't just jump into things. That was what was meant by my comment. And it would seem you agree.

Indeed this is what advanced techs allow people to do. Expand mindgames. Somewhere up in the beginning of my post is you saying something to the effect of "don't give me that crap about how advanced techs allow you to do mindgames". At least pick a stance!

Again, i was talking about how focusing solely on advanced techniques =/= mindgames.
Advanced techniques falls under Mindgames. We take away mindgames, we no longer have smash. We take away advanced techniques, we still have mindgames, thus we still have Smash.

You don't need HOURS of practice at a game to be good at it? So what do you need then, minutes? Boy the games you've been playing must be shallow as hell. I sure hope that Brawl isn't taken to its meta game in minutes.

We've expanded on this, you said you were rereading the posts, hopefully you were filled in.

Do you win at "SMASH"? You seem to have this hate for melee that can only be stemmed by frustration of losing. How well do you actually undertstand "SMASH" for being somebody so frustrated with melee, and so relieved that Brawl is a, seemingly, much simpler game?

I never lose(in my local area).....its a shame, tourneys are the only challenge, and i hardly get to make it out to them.

And i love melee. I am however, ready to move on. 6 years was enough, and i feel like brawl will be replacing melee, im not too blind with love to realize that.

You can quote me when I'm wrong and I shall eat my words, but YOU WILL NOT BE THE BEST AT BRAWL WITH YOUR CURRENT MINDSET. Stop telling players you will beat them.

Oh yeah, I'll beat YOU.. if you don't believe me time will tell.. or whatever.

Awesome, PM me, ill message you after release.

That offer still stands with everyone else out there. Just send a PM and ill mark ya down