Advanced techniques changed

[Jakatsu]

I like to think of it this way, and mind you, this is just my opinion. I play tourney-rules, I use Advanced Techniques, but after seeing the new Brawl Videos on WiFiWars, I have this to say.

Competitive play wont LOOK stupid anymore.

Instead of seeing characters spinning around (DDing), bouncing around like rabbits (SHFFL), and skooting around on their butts (WDing) we'll see amazing LOOKING play. That was my only gripe, whenever I played I realised just how silly I looked on screen.

Don't worry about Brawl, it will be amazing, and we will break it down untill it runs as well as Melee.

 

[Zauron]

If you don't believe I know the truth about the turn-around nuetral-B, just look at my posting history. For example, I just posted details about Lucario that no one else has yet known about, and how to actually kill people with Mario's FLUDD. I've been playing the game all day since Wednesday when my friend got an import copy. Trust me, turn-around nuetral-B's are definitely still in the game and work the same way as in Melee. The reason the poster above me claimed they were gone is because they were gone at E for All, however, many things at E for All have been changed since then, such as:

- Turn-around Nuetral B's work now.
- You can drop off a ledge by pressing Down now (at E4A could only drop off by pressing back)
- Dash Dancing does not work the same way
- Cancelling a dash by ducking no longer works in the final version (you screech to a halt, THEN duck).

People are posting info from E for All as if it is the gospel truth, but many aspects of the game were changed since then - better to trust info from people who have played the final game then someone quoting outdated info from E4A.

 

[Hitzel]

elitists are as bad or worse than ignorant casuals. You shouldn't hate someone for pointing out what drama queens everyone is being because we got a new game and not a melée patch.

Brawl could be completely different from Melee as long as it still has as much depth and everyone would be fine, but it doesn't look that way. That's why people are being drama queens.

*Edit*

If you don't believe I know the truth about the turn-around nuetral-B, just look at my posting history. For example, I just posted details about Lucario that no one else has yet known about, and how to actually kill people with Mario's FLUDD. I've been playing the game all day since Wednesday when my friend got an import copy. Trust me, turn-around nuetral-B's are definitely still in the game and work the same way as in Melee. The reason the poster above me claimed they were gone is because they were gone at E for All, however, many things at E for All have been changed since then, such as:

- Turn-around Nuetral B's work now.
- You can drop off a ledge by pressing Down now (at E4A could only drop off by pressing back)
- Dash Dancing does not work the same way
- Cancelling a dash by ducking no longer works in the final version (you screech to a halt, THEN duck).

People are posting info from E for All as if it is the gospel truth, but many aspects of the game were changed since then - better to trust info from people who have played the final game then someone quoting outdated info from E4A.

Who here said that nobody believes you have the game..?

Is it possible to dash cancel by pressing down without going through the crouch animation, then?

 

[Zauron]

Brawl could be completely different from Melee as long as it still has as much depth and everyone would be fine, but it doesn't look that way. That's why people are being drama queens.

*Edit*

Who here said that nobody believes you have the game..?

Is it possible to dash cancel by pressing down without going through the crouch animation, then?

Someone earlier quoted my post and another post and asked which one was telling the truth about the turnaround.

Anyway, dashing then ducking - you are dashing, you hold down. The character screeches to a halt just like they do when you release holding forward. After the screech animation is completely done, they do a duck animation just as if you had pressed down while idle. You can't attack while screeching to a halt.

This means you can no longer press down to cancel a dash and immediately attack with a non-dash attack like you could in Melee (at least, not with this type of cancel, someone found a fox-trot cancel that can do this though). I mentioned that because someone from E4A way back mentioned they could crouch to cancel the dash as an explanation for what we possibly saw as a "dash brake" (which I have yet to figure out how to do, assuming it still is in the final game at all).

Here's the "dash brake" that someone claimed was a standard crouch-cancelled dash into an FSmash:

 

[JFox]

I've played the game so listen.

Turn around B moves are still in. I haven't tried everyones, but all that I have tried have worked. They are just a little different cuz you have to exagerrate the movement a bit more.

Falco's SHL and Samus' MC is still in.

 

[SilintNinjya]

Look at Halo 3. Bungie wanted it to have no depth, and it doesn't. The same thing could happen to Brawl.

It doesn't? i guess all that depth i was playing wasnt halo 3 then =\

i stand by my statement. right now, the only thing that bothers me about brawl is that the tripping SEEMS to be random. but we dont KNOW that yet. if it is random, well thats lame.

 

[Hitzel]

It doesn't? i guess all that depth i was playing wasnt halo 3 then =\

What happened to force spawning?

What happened to teamspawning?

What happened to randomspawning?

How do said spawns work?

What happened to weapon spawn timers?

What happened to animation cancels?

What happened to crouch tapping?

What happened to weapon swapping?

What happened to melee damage levels?

What happened to melee hit detection?

What happened to quick camo?

What happened to leading shots?

What happened to the BR?

What happened to the PR?

What happened to the Shotgun?

What happened to the Sniper?

What happened to flag tossing?

What happened to flag touch returning?

What happened to bomb arming?

What happened to play ball?

What happened to map design in general?

...

Don't make me get into this.

 

[Cheezball]

i hate kids like you

the reason i play is to be competitive. i only enjoy 1v1s with no items. i don't enjoy items. i don't enjoy free for alls.

stop telling people how to play.

***, he isn't telling anyone how to play, the guy said that competitive play is out, and he was saying that you can play normally. Stfu. If these advanced techs were never found NONE of this complaining would have happened. I know, I am complaining too, but really, can't we all just live without advanced techs? I mean, its just not fair to beginners. I hate ***es like you.

 

[Hitzel]

What happened to force spawning?

What happened to teamspawning?

What happened to randomspawning?

How do said spawns work?

What happened to weapon spawn timers?

What happened to animation cancels?

What happened to crouch tapping?

What happened to weapon swapping?

What happened to melee damage levels?

What happened to melee hit detection?

What happened to quick camo?

What happened to leading shots?

What happened to the BR?

What happened to the PR?

What happened to the Shotgun?

What happened to the Sniper?

What happened to flag tossing?

What happened to flag touch returning?

What happened to bomb arming?

What happened to play ball?

What happened to map design in general?

...

Don't make me get into this.

No answer? That's what I thought.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I lol at the people who spent years trying to master these moves because they had nothing better to do or a real job to get to, and now the sequel took it out and they're sad that they can't use cheap exploits and glitches to win a competitive match.

 

[Hitzel]

I lol at the people who spent years trying to master these moves because they had nothing better to do or a real job to get to, and now the sequel took it out and they're sad that they can't use cheap exploits and glitches to win a competitive match.

Or maybe they're bummed that Brawl might be dumbed down and not fun to play.

 

[SilintNinjya]

No answer? That's what I thought.

im sorry for not being on these boards constantly. perhaps i was doing something else. you should try it some day!

speaking of which, there is nothing wrong with anything you listed. its all fine. perhaps you're one of those people that thought that halo TWO was good. quite frankly, this game improves over it in every way.

 

[Kwesi]

***, he isn't telling anyone how to play, the guy said that competitive play is out, and he was saying that you can play normally. Stfu. If these advanced techs were never found NONE of this complaining would have happened. I know, I am complaining too, but really, can't we all just live without advanced techs? I mean, its just not fair to beginners. I hate ***es like you.

IF those advanced techs were never found smash wouldn't be as big as it is today.

 

[Hitzel]

im sorry for not being on these boards constantly. perhaps i was doing something else. you should try it some day!

speaking of which, there is nothing wrong with anything you listed. its all fine. perhaps you're one of those people that thought that halo TWO was good. quite frankly, this game improves over it in every way.

I think Halo one is good, actually.

I respect your opinion if you think the changes done to those things were good ones... but that's not what I asked.

Didn't mean to come off that negative, but w/e.

 

[SilintNinjya]

I think Halo one is good, actually.

I respect your opinion if you think the changes done to those things were good ones... but that's not what I asked.

Didn't mean to come off that negative, but w/e.

ya, you asked "what happened to _____" and listed a lot of stuff that went largely unchanged or was balanced this time.

halo 3 is the best of the halos. i wouldnt be surprised if brawl is the best of the smashes.

 

[behemoth]

It doesn't? i guess all that depth i was playing wasnt halo 3 then =\

i stand by my statement. right now, the only thing that bothers me about brawl is that the tripping SEEMS to be random. but we dont KNOW that yet. if it is random, well thats lame.

Halo 3 is as deep as your average sorority girl. And Bungie didn't want to make it less deep, they just don't understand (like most halo players) that Halo 1 was the only balanced game in the series, and every sequel has been a leap in the wrong direction.

but that doesn't matter, you could put master chief into Mario Party and it would sell like hotcakes.

**The rest of this not directed towards quoted poster**

Regardless, here's the deal:

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

That is the only persuasive argument you can make about the game's quality. It is the only complaint Nintendo will care about.

If you buy it, knowing full well the roster and such, don't *****.

It's just like all the chicks (and guys) who complain about top 40 rap exploiting and objectifying women, but then run out to buy the album or dance every time they hear the song.

You can't have it both ways.


Believe me. Competitive smash doesn't need complainers, and we won't miss you.

Goodbye.

 

[SilintNinjya]

Halo 3 is as deep as your average sorority girl. And Bungie didn't want to make it less deep, they just don't understand (like most halo players) that Halo 1 was the only balanced game in the series, and every sequel has been a leap in the wrong direction.

other than this part, i agree with everything you said.

as for this, i fail to see how its not a very deep game. the first one was the most balanced? you mean to say the pistol was balanced? i would argue that the third is FAR more balanced and the map design is easily the best in it.

im done with this discussion here though. this is a smash forum.

 

[Adi]

Yeah, I'm not an avid Halo player (only level 30 in ranked) but from someone who has played all 3 it seems like although H3 is the most dumbed down, it is by far the most balanced.

 

[Hitzel]

ya, you asked "what happened to _____" and listed a lot of stuff that went largely unchanged or was balanced this time.

halo 3 is the best of the halos. i wouldnt be surprised if brawl is the best of the smashes.

Most of the stuff I listed doesn't exist anymore.

 

[SilintNinjya]

Most of the stuff I listed doesn't exist anymore.

What happened to leading shots?

What happened to the BR?

What happened to the PR?

What happened to the Shotgun?

What happened to the Sniper?

What happened to flag tossing?

What happened to flag touch returning?

What happened to bomb arming?

What happened to play ball?

wait, so none of that exists anymore?

also, thank god for the button combos being gone.

and what about the spawn timers? you know you can change all that stuff? i think youre just making stuff up now =\

 

[Titanium Dragon]

A) The game has at least a year's worth of competitive gameplay in it as far as I can see at the moment.
B) There is no indication whatsoever that they did not consider competitive players while making the game; this is entirely in your head. Grow up.
C) This game certainly has the potential to be deep, and possibly deeper than Melee; the question is whether or not it is. We won't know this for a year.
D) Quit whining. Seriously. Wavedashing is not what made SSBM a good game. Any argument that the changes they've made make it a non-competitive game should, at this point, be met with open derision as there is absolutely no way to tell.

 

[-Wolfy-]

I wonder how much of this is competitive players complaining and how much is people trying to be cool like the other competitive players who are not going to play just because wavedashing is out... you all need to lighten up and stop assuming things and follow this rationally.

 

[okiyama]

I wonder how much of this is competitive players complaining and how much is people trying to be cool like the other competitive players who are not going to play just because wavedashing is out... you all need to lighten up and stop assuming things and follow this rationally.

Thank you for being the first person in a while on smash boards to be speaking realistically.

I mean really no matter what they do to the game there will always be players that are better than other players, they cannot avoid that unless they made it "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100 the closest to it wins"so competitive play WILL be in and it WILL be good. If there are players that are better than other players there will always be competitive play.

Just maybe less finger busting tech skill required which I;m ok with even though I'm a fairly technical player myself.

 

[KeyKid19]

First off, I think if you can't enjoy the game without wavedashing then you have some serious problems. Even games played by average or below average players can be just as exciting as two Smash Ninjas going at it in a World Championship. Games that are close are exciting, games that are blowouts are not. That's how all matches are regardless of talent (to a point). I understand it's fun to win and be "the best", but if you can't win without wavedashing then you are just a really skilled controller who is a terrible player. That's how I see it at least.

Secondly, if you're truly a "pro", then figure out something else that will give you an advantage. Besides, why is it the game's responsibility to have exactly the same mechanics as the previous game? That means every game will be just like all of the games before it, which will cause you to lose interest.

Every game has its own set of quirks, so the 95% of you who are complaining about the game without actually playing the game yet can figure all those out once you actually GET the game. It amazes me how many people are complaining about a game they haven't even played yet.

 

[tutata]

You can't just play it normally?

Look at your self this is smash boards, you have barely joined. This site is dedicated to the usage of advance techniques. Maybe another website is better for you, try another one but this one, like i mention before, its like being in the KKK and saying you love black people, not gonna happen, not here. Look around you these tequiniques allow for a better game. Everyone plays to win, even little kids play games to win and they get mad if they dont win. So why dont YOU learn how to do the advance tequnies if you want to win, and if you dont want to then you should not play to win and dont show up to any tourneys and instead play little kids.

 

[Gojithefox]

Halo 3... dumbed downed... balanced... I don't know. All I do know is that the vast amount of options allowed that game to be *very* enjoyable. I would never play that game by myself, but I greatly enjoyed playing with my boyfriend and all his friends, moreso than any of the other Halos.

Brawl will be the same. It may or may not be as 'deep' as you competitive guys want, but it will be, by far, a lot more fun for us casual players. I'm of the very firm belief that if you're not playing a full game, you're not getting the full experience. Complaining that a game lacks depth, while at the same time removing the very objects that make the game special, just seems to be a logical fallacy.

I wouldn't care if Brawl lacked the advanced techniques that you all so crave, but obviously I'm not competitive in this game. I do know how competitive players think, however, because I used to play Pokemon competitively. So don't think I don't understand where you're coming from. I just find it as silly as banning Double Team merely because you don't want to adapt and change.

 

[SolidSonic]

Cool... Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Halo 3 was dumbed down to an annoying degree.

 

[Libomasus]

What bothers me most about Brawl so far is the lack of combos. The gameplay looks wishy-washy, as someone pointed out earlier "people just flailing around trying to hit each other." Combos break up the back-and-forth gameplay that boring fighting games are riddled with. It puts you on the edge of your seat. Can he follow it up? Can the opponent get out? Also, the emphasis on rolling reminds me too much of those teleportation tricks you normally find in anime fighters. Woohoo your behind your opponent, now you get a free hit! There are just better ways to go about it, which is why I appreciated Melee's dash-dancing and L-canceling.

 

[Libomasus]

What bothers me most about Brawl so far is the lack of combos. The gameplay looks wishy-washy, as someone pointed out earlier "people just flailing around trying to hit each other." Combos break up the back-and-forth gameplay that boring fighting games are riddled with. It puts you on the edge of your seat. Can he follow it up? Can the opponent get out? Also, the emphasis on rolling reminds me too much of those teleportation tricks you normally find in anime fighters. Woohoo your behind your opponent, now you get a free hit! There are just better ways to go about it, which is why I appreciated Melee's dash-dancing and L-canceling.

So yeah, not looking too optimistic right now.

 

[Pendragonslayer]

The way I see it, there are really two options facing competitive smash players right now.

a) See Brawl as a disappointment, and not buy it. There is nearly no way to say this without being facetious, so know that I don't mean it such at all . But I can't see why this would be a good idea at all. Honestly, it seems rather presumptuous to say, when the final build has been out for less than a week, that this game is no longer worth your time.

b) Buy Brawl. Brawl is gonna be a fun game no matter what, and is certainly worth any smasher's 50 bucks, if nothing else than to try out the super new characters, new stages, hear the awesome soundtrack, tinker around with stage creator, play other smashboarders online, and (for some) play SSE. Remember what it was like when Melee came out and you didn't know advanced techniques? It was a blast to play with friends, and just the sheer novelty of Mario vs. Pikachu was so fun. Isn't the fact that a new game in the series as your favorite game enough to make you buy it?

Which leads to my big point: the competitive scene hasn't developed yet. The new roster and the stage creator are gonna add to the expansiveness of the fights, no matter what. But the advanced techniques have yet to be discovered and developed, and we simply can't assume that they are dead and gone and that Brawl will be dumbed-down by default.

Remember when you were a kid, and you had something your parent(s) were going to make you go to on the weekend that you couldn't possibly imagine would have any redeeming qualities AT ALL? In that moment, you knew so clearly that the weekend was going to be the worst of your life. Lo and behold, that weekend the dreaded event turned out to have some things in store that were not as bad as you thought, and perhaps you made some friends or even had a good time! My point is, sometimes you will think you know exactly how something's gonna turn out, but your mind is just playing tricks on you. Forgive the analogy, I'm not calling you children, but please don't dismiss Brawl and pretend that you know exactly how the competitive scene is gonna turn out, in such a, dare i say juvenile?, state of mind.

It could turn out to be dumbed down a bit. Perhaps the game will only be fun for parties and non-competitive scenes, and times where you're dying to play as any of the very cool new characters. But there's a chance, perhaps not overwhelming but certainly not negligible, that Brawl will be as good as or even surpass Melee.

And, in my completely honest opinion, that's a chance worth EVERYONE on this board's fifty bucks.

 

[WoapGang]

Look at your self this is smash boards, you have barely joined. This site is dedicated to the usage of advance techniques. Maybe another website is better for you, try another one but this one, like i mention before, its like being in the KKK and saying you love black people, not gonna happen, not here. Look around you these tequiniques allow for a better game. Everyone plays to win, even little kids play games to win and they get mad if they dont win. So why dont YOU learn how to do the advance tequnies if you want to win, and if you dont want to then you should not play to win and dont show up to any tourneys and instead play little kids.

That's not Exactly true. Smashboards was made so both Competitive AND Casual Players could talk about Super Smash Brothers. AT's weren't even as "advanced" when the game came out. It was basically only Short-hopping and Fast Falling that was discovered. That's not to say that Brawl's Techniques will be seen within a week. It took Months to Master Melee....And some of us haven't even gotten that far. But the point i'm trying to make is, have you ever spent an ENTIRE day without saying something about an AT? Don't put other people down because they have different suggestions than you. That's not what SWF is about. When i First joined I learned more than i ever would've learned. That's because people here were FRIENDLY (i'm looking at you Fawriel )And the person you've just flamed could be the next ToadBanjoConker.

 

[Red_Maniac]

Look at your self this is smash boards, you have barely joined. This site is dedicated to the usage of advance techniques. Maybe another website is better for you, try another one but this one, like i mention before, its like being in the KKK and saying you love black people, not gonna happen, not here. Look around you these tequiniques allow for a better game. Everyone plays to win, even little kids play games to win and they get mad if they dont win. So why dont YOU learn how to do the advance tequnies if you want to win, and if you dont want to then you should not play to win and dont show up to any tourneys and instead play little kids.

So... anyone who doesn't know advanced techniques automatically suck?

 

[courte]

man i love all of it
not all tourney or casual; i simply teeter on the line, tripping on knee's from time to time

i.e. still practicing

 

[fierfek99]

Imho...

In my humbly honest opinion,

You cannot judge a game to be "competitive" or
"non competitive" without breaking the game in, so to speak.

Competitive play results from practice and exploration of ways that players can give themselves a technical advantage from, and the strategies that evolve from that next tier.

Would it be reasonable to say that a decision to call the game "uncompetitive" based on a PREVIOUS game's competitive nature is foolish, at best?

I mean, don't you find the challenge of finding new strategies exciting?

I mean, is professional gameplay based on the tried-and-true,
or the bleeding-edge strategies?


So before you talk about how you don't like the game, play it a while.
Just play it, and then let's talk shop. Show me what you got.
Cuz by the time I've played it for a while, I bet I can kick your ***.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^No you can't. You think that without advance techs you are somehow on equal level with the people who have been honing their strategic skills for years. The only thing taking out advance techs has done is make additudes like that. If both of you spend an equal amount of time practicing the game, theoretically you should never catch up. So if you want to get better than a competative player you have to devote more time and work harder than a competative player, and thus become a competative player yourself.

Fun, huh.

 

[Espy Rose]

Wow, that was actually fun to watch, unlike early tourney footage of Melee I saw earlier (I don't remember the link. It was Azen vs. somebody. One of them was Jiggs, the other was Link)

I'm surprised that only you replied to that fight.

And I agree with everything you said.

 

[Swil]

I don't know if people have already seen this or not, but this is quite an impressive fight. I think this fight can easily put the "brawl has no competitive play" complaint to rest.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/170169.html

 

[LoVer]

Ono, teh game isn't exactly like Melee! Let's all pitch ourselves into Norfairian Lava in protest!!!!111

 

[Adi]

I don't know if people have already seen this or not, but this is quite an impressive fight. I think this fight can easily put the "brawl has no competitive play" complaint to rest.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/170169.html

That's fine and dandy for the characters who have very little aerial lag but what about the slower characters. Are they to be left in the dust?

 

[Swil]

That's fine and dandy for the characters who have very little aerial lag but what about the slower characters. Are they to be left in the dust?

Well someone has to be at the bottom of the tiers. Also King DeDeDe looks like he can be pretty good to me, and I am assuming he falls in the slow category, and don't the slower characters have harder hitting moves? I mean even though those guys were fast. They obviously lacked knockout ability since they were reaching really high percents on each stock.