Advanced patch

[Zenjamin]

Downloadable stages?
no we can make our own.

Downloadable Charcters?
no, they would have advertised that possibility. and im frankly sick of the obsession of quantity over quality.

But PLEASE. Sakurai, If you ever had any respect for the completive community, PLEASE add a patch with the option to turn advanced techs on.

It wouldnt be hard to do, and the casual gamers that you must consider your constituents would be able to turn them on or off as they desire.

Honestly, How hard would it be to add back in the code that was origionally in the Brawl demo where FastFalling took away lag?
Or to Dash Dance as it has always been
or to up the falling speed?
hell, even add a form of WDing while your at it.

These would NOT be hard things to do, small things, that would take up almost no memory, and would make the community VERRY happy.


and you may find, that if given the option to turn these things on or off, that the "competive" community would actually grow.
and that is needed for the game to truely last. Party games only last so long (there are 11 mario party games floating around out there)



There are now competive vids out there, and Cfalcon can no longer combo... in fact, i have yet to see a real combo by anyone, charcters with high landing lag in Melee were actually given MORE landing lag and no way to cancel it.
even for the faster charcters, the speed of the game seems dramatically reduced.


so PLEASE add a patch with the option to turn advanced aspects of the game on.
little effort, no draw-backs, BIG effect.

 

[blayde_axel]

"But PLEASE. Sakurai, If you ever had any respect for the completive community, PLEASE add a patch with the option to turn advanced techs on."

lol. I find it funny that you think it's that easy.

Geez, just wait for someone to find more adv. techs. It's only been out for three days.

 

[luigidude90]

awwww dont QQ

 

[Zenjamin]

Yes, and normally I would not jump to conclusions...
But the advanced techs were already found in the Demo... they were taken out.


If it were not for the demo, i would make no assumptions about what was or wasnt taken out, or how hard the code for those techs were.

 

[iron blade]

Stop whining about your 'advanced techs' being out. THIS IS NOT MELEE 2.

 

[Zankoku]

Stop attacking people who want anything involving technique to be in the game. It's obviously not Melee 2 because it's looking more and more like Super Smash Bros. Party.

 

[Zenjamin]

/sigh.
I thought id encounter this.

Melee was not smash2 either,
but there was still a form of LagCanceling.

and i was in great support of things like Lag canceling being made easier for the general community.
but taking them out of the game completely just takes away so much depth.

and im not sure why anyone would be against the idea.
Dont like it? turn the switch off.

 

[bluekitsune13]

A part of me doesn't care whether or not the left in or took out the "advanced techs," but the other part is happy that they did so I can see all the pros whine about it. :/

Just go back and play Melee. It's lasted 6 years, it must be good. :D

 

[Lord Knight]

I lol'd hard.

 

[Cheezball]

I like the idea with a switch to turn on or off advanced techs. Then, there could be 2 online modes: Non-techs, and techs. It would be so cool and good.

 

[Papapaint]

A part of me doesn't care whether or not the left in or took out the "advanced techs," but the other part is happy that they did so I can see all the pros whine about it. :/

Just go back and play Melee. It's lasted 6 years, it must be good. :D

None of the "pros" are whining. Just the wannabes.

And no, it's not easy to just "turn on" advanced techniques. That's some complex coding.

 

[kobefox2485]

this game is having to much stuff, but the quality is going down with so many useless characters!!

 

[parkermortensen]

You don't just turn advanced techs "on." I know the demo was a little different, but let's give it a while and just ENJOY the game for now. It's been three days, so if you have the game, have fun with it, and if you don't, wait for a month and then have fun with it. You don't need to be the best advanced player and absolutely own everybody in the first three days.

 

[parkermortensen]

this game is having to much stuff, but the quality is going down with so many useless characters!!

Uh, what? There is no inverse correlation between quality and the number of characters, and none of them are useless. You think Brawl would be better if it had fewer characters?

Look, if you start comparing this game to Melee and how it played, you'll never be satisfied. If what you were looking for was Melee online with some more advanc. techs, then you're in the wrong place, people.

 

[MookieRah]

This thread is very dumb. We don't even know what Brawl has to offer us yet. People have already discovered a few things in the game already. Fox trotting seems to have been obscure enough to fly under Nintendo's radar, and it just happens to be improved from melee. Give the scene some time to figure stuff out, and THEN complain.

 

[Zenjamin]

again, im not comparing the game to melee.
and i know that we havent spent much time with brawl...


But the removal of Lcanceling from the Demo is the main thing. I can find NO logical reason why it was removed unless Sakurai intended this game to be less competive.

if you can offer up a logical explanation for why the "advanced" moves that were simple to learn and excute, of which they already had the code for and that worked perfectly with the game, was taken out.
Im all ears.

im not irrational, so give me an explanation. or logical reason why this would be hard to implement.

Because things like "QQ moar" or "the game hasnt been out that long" mean nothing.

Give me something that reason can grasp.

 

[Magus420]

I'm sure they removed the fastfall lag cancel because it was not intended to be in there, not that its removal would make the game less competitive. It was just a bug from their perspective not an advanced technique or anything that could add depth to the game.

 

[paper_crane]

The fastfall lag cancel would have been stupid and arbitrary anyway. Most of the attacks that would actually benefit from the lag cancel would probably have trouble coming out in time if you had to fastfall first... unless you used a full jump instead of a short hop, which just compounds the speed problem. The fastfall lag cancel would have been a greater benefit to the already fast characters than the heavies that actually need it.

 

[Zenjamin]

umm... No.
have you ever shffled before?

and magus, a month or so agao, we had allot of noobs here *****ing about how things like Lcancel should be removed form the game, much less then we have here now, and they were blown off.
It was said it would never happen, because Lac canceling was in the origional smash bros, and then they kept it in melee.
they even halved the lag when it was "canceled" and gave it an animation. Action Replay gave further evidence to support that the creators not only knew anout these techs and did not consider them bugs, but that they supported them.

So no, Im not going to but that they just dismissed the stuff in the demo as bugs and gave it no logical thought as to the effect it might have no the competive and casual community.

there has to be a logical explanation, but whatever it is, we should have the ability to choose.

 

[Ebony Princess]

With little comments in screenshots on the Dojo like "Real men use items", they seem to be purposefully aiming at a more casual audience with Brawl.

 

[ripman3]

If you want advanced techs so much...then why don't you play melee?

If he wants the game to be slower or less technical, then he obviously has a reason for it.

 

[Papapaint]

Zenjamin,

Quite simply, this is a different game. They wanted to do something different. you keep saying you didn't expect them to make melee 2.0, but then you keep comparing brawl to melee. Stop.

Ebony,

They've always aimed to a more casual audience. That doesn't mean they didn't give depth to the game.

 

[Ebony Princess]

Zenjamin,

Quite simply, this is a different game. They wanted to do something different. you keep saying you didn't expect them to make melee 2.0, but then you keep comparing brawl to melee. Stop.

Ebony,

They've always aimed to a more casual audience. That doesn't mean they didn't give depth to the game.

But now casuals will be able to actively play with more competitive players due to WiFi, and they don't want the casuals to be too disadvantaged. Without advanced techniques, you can get better at the game by playing and not by researching and practicing advanced techniques.

 

[LordLocke]

Wow, jeebus. Smashboards is making GameFAQs look like a Gentleman's Club right about now.

How about we wait, say, more then FIVE DAYS before writing off the game as completely devoid of technique and start BAWing for Melee rehash in it's place? I mean, Melee was pretty basic when it first came out too. I remember Tournament Go 1- Falco's Shine-to-spike was considered extremely, extremely advanced back in 2k2. Wavedashing was known but barely used, considered too much work for so little gain. The only people who knew about L-canceling were a small number of the groups that followed the SSB64 scene VERY closely (closely enough that me and mine hadn't heard of it, and we played the eff out of SSB64, both among ourselves and against outside groups).

Brawl is a different game. Learn to play the game. If you don't like it in the end, go back. Not every new game in a franchise turns out to be competitive gold (Virtua Fighter 3, Tekken 4, Street Fighter 3:NG and 2I, Soul Calibur 3)- but jeez, at least give the game some time under the microscope before acting like it's the worst thing to happen in gaming since E.T.

 

[Zenjamin]

"If you want advanced techs so much...then why don't you play melee?"
because melee doesnt have online, or a stage creator, or a good 1p mode, or great new charcters.

almightypancake:
imagine me smacking you upside the head.
please read my above posts if your going to tell me what i just said.

I specifically said that i was comparing it to the Brawl to the Demo version and not melee.
I specifically said that i was in support of a new stype of gameplay where things were added on or altered.
I specifically mentioned how i was in favor of things like LagCanceling and ledge hogging being easier do execute.

add on to the game, good, allter the game, good.
but do NOT take away from the game without adding something in supplement, when it benefits nobody.

 

[platnum]

People listen, even if it seems like adv. techs. are gone, alot of them probably arent, they are just done differently...think about that for a sec.

 

[S2]

This thread is very dumb. We don't even know what Brawl has to offer us yet. People have already discovered a few things in the game already. Fox trotting seems to have been obscure enough to fly under Nintendo's radar, and it just happens to be improved from melee. Give the scene some time to figure stuff out, and THEN complain.

Yup.

The real debate of Brawl vs. Melee should s tart in 2 years, when the high level players of each game argue over which one is better.

 

[Zenjamin]

People listen, even if it seems like adv. techs. are gone, alot of them probably arent, they are just done differently...think about that for a sec.

again, I would share that view if it were not for the Demo version.
read above.

 

[Papapaint]

"If you want advanced techs so much...then why don't you play melee?"
because melee doesnt have online, or a stage creator, or a good 1p mode, or great new charcters.

almightypancake:
imagine me smacking you upside the head.
please read my above posts if your going to tell me what i just said.

I specifically said that i was comparing it to the Brawl to the Demo version and not melee.
I specifically said that i was in support of a new stype of gameplay where things were added on or altered.
I specifically mentioned how i was in favor of things like LagCanceling and ledge hogging being easier do execute.

add on to the game, good, allter the game, good.
but do NOT take away from the game without adding something in supplement, when it benefits nobody.

You're being closed-minded, and you're comparing brawl to a demo version AS WELL AS melee.

Why did they take out the techniques? Because they wanted a different game. Are they removing from the game? No. Simple as that.

The game is about outsmarting your opponent, not being able to push one extra button better than they can. Quit whining.

 

[paper_crane]

umm... No.
have you ever shffled before?

If I understood Gimpy's description correctly, the fastfall lag cancel required you to fastfall BEFORE you used the aerial, whereas Melee shffling allows you to use your attack before fastfalling and l-canceling. That's a huge difference in startup time, because with the fastfall lag cancel, you weren't allowed to start the attack until after you reached the peak of your jump.

In Melee, you can effectively shffl slow moves because you can start them as soon as you leave the ground and fastfall/l-cancel afterwards. If you had to wait until the peak of the jump AND fastfall BEFORE starting up Ganon's fair, Ganon would most likely hit the ground before his attack came out. The only moves that would benefit from the fastfall lag cancel are the attacks with fast startup and little lag, which means that faster moves get faster while slower moves get left behind even further.

... though the point is moot, now that the fastfall lag cancel is gone. Besides, you can argue forever and a day about everything that was removed from the demo, but you also can't deny the possibility that many things were added in the final version.

That said, dash dancing has essentially returned in a different form--instead of tapping back and forth, you initial dash a few times in one direction and a few times in the opposite direction, which gives the same basic weaving effect that made the dash dance so powerful in Melee. Since you can now use smash attacks (and even tilts, apparently) out of a dash, we have also recovered one of the wavedash's main functions: the ability to space yourself quickly for ground attacks. On top of that, a few people have reported the return of the reverse aerial neutral B.

Not to mention that Brawl has also shown potential for new techniques. For example, no one has fully explored the trip mechanic, and who knows what might come out of that. And I have a feeling that double jump canceling combined with the Brawl's air dodge could turn into something new as well.

So basically I think you are worrying too much, because the game has been out for three days and a number of Melee's advanced techniques have already returned in a different form, and new ones are already beginning to take shape. We are already way ahead of where the Melee competitive scene was three days after Melee's release, so I think the best we can do right now is wait and enjoy the game.

 

[platnum]

again, I would share that view if it were not for the Demo version.
read above.

Demo shemo, once i get brawl, I will find a way to L-cancel! and if i cant...That sucks.

 

[Zenjamin]

You're being closed-minded, and you're comparing brawl to a demo version AS WELL AS melee.

Im being closed minded?
I have already said that i was more then willing to listen to any logical reason for why those things were taken out of the demo.
I am still waiting, but all im hearing is cheap insults.

Why did they take out the techniques? Because they wanted a different game. Are they removing from the game? No. Simple as that.

L2 not contradict Ur self.

Quit whining.

ya, great arguments there

If I understood Gimpy's description correctly, the fastfall lag cancel required you to fastfall BEFORE you used the aerial, whereas Melee shffling allows you to use your attack before fastfalling and l-canceling.

yes, and in melee, you could SHFF either way.

also, the "short-hops" in brawl are much higher in brawl... not that it matters anymore.

Demo shemo, once i get brawl, I will find a way to L-cancel! and if i cant...That sucks.

If they took out the FastFalling version in the Demo for something more obscure and hard to figure out, then i wouldnt understand the reasoning behind that unless they didnt want the gap between "noobs" and "pros" to be so easy to cross.

regardless, i wish you luck, and i will have the game within the week as well to try to look for it.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. If you want L-cancelling and wavedashing, go play Melee. Brawl is not Melee.

 

[Papapaint]

L2 not contradict Ur self.

Only I didn't. The techniques do not add to the game, IMO. They make it a different game.

 

[Zenjamin]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. If you want L-cancelling and wavedashing, go play Melee. Brawl is not Melee.

If you Dont want LagCanceling or WDing, go play poker,
Poker is not smash bros...

srsly though, the attraction of brawl is online play, stage creator, new charcters, ect... lets not fool ourselves on that front. and everybody should be able to enjoy those things.

The techniques do not add to the game

Hey.
Ho.
you just lost.

and even if you wanted to argue that point, i wont, its not worth my time.
but even if you were right on that point... it wouldnt matter, just turn the fracken switch off.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Zenjamin, exactly what are you saying?

 

[Zenjamin]

use your reading comprehension skills

 

[Papapaint]

Hey.
Ho.
you just lost.

and even if you wanted to argue that point, i wont, its not worth my time.
but even if you were right on that point... it wouldnt matter, just turn the fracken switch off.

The fact that you're too closed-minded to discuss the point actually means that you, sir, have lost.

Advanced techniques cripple players. It creates a situation where they have no choice to use them.

And you still don't seem to understand the difficulty in programming an "Advanced Techniques Switch"...

 

[Zenjamin]

Im willing to discuss them. just not here. its been discussed to death, and it would be off-topic in this thread.

and no, i dont understand where the difficulty in programming an "Advanced Techniques Switch" is.
You have the code that says cancel the lag when you fast fall, you have the code that says to leave the lag in when you FastFall.

But as you have been implying that you DO know the difficulty in programming an "Advanced Techniques Switch", why dont you explain it to us?

that would be a logical argument.

 

[Papapaint]

Im willing to discuss them. just not here. its been discussed to death, and it would be off-topic in this thread.

and no, i dont understand where the difficulty in programming an "Advanced Techniques Switch" is.
You have the code that says cancel the lag when you fast fall, you have the code that says to leave the lag in when you FastFall.

But as you have been implying that you DO know the difficulty in programming an "Advanced Techniques Switch", why dont you explain it to us?

that would be a logical argument.

Sure.

More than likely, they're programming in C++. That's the standard for video game programming. Were they coding in Perl, it would be easier to do what you're suggesting (but the game would be much, much larger).

Coding in C++ is very, very interactive. Essentially, gameplay is one giant algorithm. You can't just replace a part of it. What you're suggesting is basically this:

Say this is the original code: 1+1+1+1=4

You're suggesting we replace part of that with something different. This would give us

1+1+1+7=4

That's a crude example, but it's just the way C++ works. Here's a brief example of how it's coded:

Player jumps. Hav0c algorithim.
Player attacks. Continue Hav0c Algorithm.
Player Lands. Continue Hav0c Algorithm.
Player finishes attacking. Continue Hav0c algorithm.

None of those things happens independently. They are all results of a previous occurence. The player lands because they were in the air. The attack ends because they've landed.

Here's an example of how L-cancelling code works:

Player jumps. Hav0c Algorithm.
Player attacks. Continue Hav0c Algorithm.
Player Lands. Continue Hav0c Algorithm.
ALLOW FOR INPUT. If input received, follow path 1. If not, follow path 2.

Path 1: Player finishes attacking. Continue Hav0c Algorithm.
Path 2layer finishes attacking. Continue Hav0c algorithm.

As you can see, they're two different codes. You can't just "insert" those new code lines into the original code at will--you'd have to change the entire gameplay code--very difficult to do.