Advanced Dedede STAGE COUNTERPICKING

[hizzlum]

Since King Dedede is a top tier character in this metagame and many tournament players and people here on smashboards main him, I am simply making a guide to help you win as Dedede against your opponent, utilizing a stage for the specific situation.

Note that this thread is primarily based on the notion that the readers play by the SBR Brawl ruleset and the stages I will talk about in this thread will be the starters, counter/starters, and counters. For more info go to http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5097738 .

Also since this thread is about tournament play, I will have advice for the Top and High tier characters of the SBR Brawl tier list and may later give info on how to counterpick middle and low tier characters. For more info go to http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028.

As a little bonus to the thread, I will post what starter stages that are the best and worst for Dedede, as you need to play at a starter stage against all characters in tournament play in the first round and then I will discuss Counterpicks for each character.

As of right now, I am going to work from the top of the SBR tier list down, so post your Meta Knight counterpicking advice to contribute to this thread that will be updated at a daily basis. Also, Cuba is Death has helped me with each character to do this thread(He and Zelgadis are the two best DeDeDe's in northern California) so it accurately helps a Dedede in tournament play.

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META KNIGHT
Starters/Neutrals
BattleField: Worst
Final Destination: OK
Smashville: Good
Yoshi's Island: Best

Summary: Battlefield has those platforms that can let MK combo DDD easy while on FD MK will outspace/outcamp DDD. On Smashville MK cannot outspace/outcamp like he can on FD, so DDD's able to get in more % when both players are spacing. Yoshi's Island is probably your best starter in this match up because MK cannot fly under the stage to get back onto the ground, so you limit his amazing recovery and also it is very difficult for MK to do the reverse shuttle loop edgeguard on this stage, so MK has less options to get quick KO's on DDD. Unfortunately, none of the starter stages have low ceilings, but rather the same level of high ceilings, so it won't help your up tilt kills with DDD, but Yoshi's Island is the best you got of the starters, so pray that random hits it or at least smashville. Once again you wont pick the any of the starters stage, this is just the scenario's that would play out in tournament play if you played at one of these specific stages, because the first stage is always random, against a MK.

Counterpick Stages
Halberd: 1st choice
Coneria: 2nd choice

Summary: As you can see, these two stages are chosen for the fact that they both have low ceilings, so DDD's up tilt can kill MK at under 100%, when MK has to look for higher % against DDD if he wants a kill when the Dedede DI's. Halberd is your primary option because on Corneria you can get tornado'ed with the low ceiling, so its a double edge sword in that case and uneve floor with constant hazrds, so for safety reasons halberd would be the most reliable choice against MK.

Stages to Strike/Ban
Luigi's Mansion:1st and best choice

Summary: MK can tornado spam you on this stage like crazy because DDD has very few options to get past it with the floor above stopping him from jumping. Also the high ceiling and the pillars don't help your kill options. This is where noob MK's can easily beat good Dededes because of the ridiculously easy nado spam that can happen.
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SNAKE
Starters/Neutrals
BattleField: Bad
Final Destination: Best
Smashville: Good
Yoshi's Island: Worst

Summary: Battlefield's platforms can be abused by snake's range on his utilt and usmash, along with nades, C4 and his other high knockback projectiles, which are problems for DDD's fat body. Also the stage is small, so you won't get in as much CG's. FD is simply the best cuz you can get so many CG's on it and Snake won't thrive if he nade camps while you get a lot of % on each CG and snake can be dtilted at the end of the CG. Smashville is good against a campy snake but you get less CG's in and the moving platform is c4 kills for snake. Yoshi's Island is the worst of all the starters mainly cuz the platform really does benefit snakes mine/nade/c4 metagame against big fat DDD. Also uneven floors and break cg's and you can dtilt at the end of a cg of the edge on this stage, which is why BF places better on this list. So you gotta pray you get FD and smashville on the random.

Counterpick Stages
Halberd: 1st Choice
Delphno Plaza: 2nd Choice
Pokemon Stadium 1: 3rd Choice

Summary: Halberd is good because at the end of the stage when the stage is actually on the ship, a part of the edge slightly goes up, allowing DDD to CG snake infinitely(Found by Cuba is death and Zelgadis) and the low ceiling just helps get a utilt kill after the infinite CG. Also moving stages are bad for snake because he does not gain his up-b after being grabbed so you can make him C4 himself to recover if he tries to go through the stage or he may just fall to his death. Delphino also has the moving stage and there is also walkoff blastzones, which are easy kills for DDD. PS1 is your third choice because of the long stage and 2/5 of the transformations have walls that you can get more than 100% CG on them if you CG them for the whole transformation, also its got a weird edge that could gimp him or let you pull off an easy stage spike.

Stages to Strike/Ban
Lylat Cruise: 1st choice

Summary: Lylat is bad for the same reason as yoshi's story: platforms and uneven floors wont help DDD win this match, there not much more to it.
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MR. GAME AND WATCH
Starters/Neutrals
BattleField: Worst
Final Destination: Best
Smashville: Good
Yoshi's Island: Bad

Summary: BF's platform are great for G&W's dair that can hit DDD's big body and yoshi's platform is not much of an improvement, and the nair glitch G&W can perform on the right side of yoshi's is easy % for him, along with the fact that he can "ride" this stage like characters in melee could. Smashville is small which is good for G&W's pressure game, but its just much better than yoshi's and BF. On FD you have the ability to run away from bair and nairs so you haltG&W pressure game and he cant rack up % like he normally can.

Counterpick Stages
Delphino Plaza: Tied for 1st choice
Frigate Orpheon: Tied for 1st choice

Summary: Delphino gives DDD the ability to abuse the floating part of the stage with his aerials while in frigate the right side of the stage means you can predict G&W recovery, and he will probably go on the lift, you you can get a hit there. Low ceilings are not so good in the match-up because of G&W's great vertical kill power with his u/dsmash which would pose as much if not greater threat than DDD's utilts.

Stages to Strike/Ban
Battlefield: 1st Choice
Castle Siege: 2nd Choice

Summary: The platforms on BF are too much of a problem to be overlooked, but one the good side you have a better chance of landing FD or smashville on the random starter. Also Castle siege has the statues that extand G&W bair range and the placing of the platforms does not help.
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[Moosetracks]

I haven't had too much of a problem with Dedede.... Maybe I haven't fought the real serious people yet, though....

 

[hizzlum]

I haven't had too much of a problem with Dedede.... Maybe I haven't fought the real serious people yet, though....

This thread is not about how easy a general match-up is for a character against DDD, this is a stage counterpicking guide to help DDD out when he has to face a MK or a G&W where he needs the stages to help him win against an equally skilled opponent.

 

[cubaisdeath]

oh, also a good note to add is that ALL neutral stages have equally high ceilings (thanks to t0mmy for that information).

 

[Gates]

oh, also a good note to add is that ALL neutral stages have equally high ceilings (thanks to t0mmy for that information).

Actually, Halberd is slightly lower and it's sometimes a neutral.

Anyway, this thread is a great idea. Do you mind if I just link to it in my matchup thread once you get some more character summaries on here?

 

[hizzlum]

Actually, Halberd is slightly lower and it's sometimes a neutral.

Anyway, this thread is a great idea. Do you mind if I just link to it in my matchup thread once you get some more character summaries on here?

Cuba refered to the SBR declared starters(BF,FD,smashville,Yoshi's island(brawl), and yes halberd's ceiling is slighlty lower, which is why its a good if not the best counterpick stage against MK.

And yes, you can link it to the enemies of the crown, thread as I will update this thread tommrrow with the next character, snake. Also the bumps would help keep this thread alive as I want this to help all DDD's who are indesicive about certain CP's against certain chars, especially in tournament play. So you will see this updated everyday(maybe not this weekend,lol). But ya that link would help and beside the link you can say(not yet finsihed)

 

[neon..?]

this thread has a nice idea and everything i really need this info. but what if luigi's mansion is banned? because some tournaments dont have it on counterpicks now.

 

[Gates]

If Luigi's Mansion is already banned, Norfair would probably be the next worse stage, or maybe Rainbow Cruise.

 

[spades]

I played against a DDD with my MK on rainbow cruise as my CP (during winners semis and losers finals) and it work out well for me.
Always leading DDD in stage position puts DDD in incredibly poor situations and in a constant state of catch-up. The part where he seems to do well on RC is the boat portion, which doesn't last too long anyway.

 

[Hype]

Just go green greens on anyone who gets CGed

edit: and luigi

 

[napZzz]

I dun like yoshis island or battlefield, or lylat cruise all that much for DDD.

Luigis mansion, pokemon stadium 1, and final des are all good stages or counterpicks ~_~

 

[bschung]

Is Lylat not a starter stage in Northern California?

Luigi's Mansion (circle camping) and Norfair (ledge camping) are very dangerous/annoying to fight MK on, but they both really should be banned from play (reasons in parentheses).

Barring the above two stages: Rainbow Cruise is probably the best thing to spend your ban on. Metaknight is dangerous in the air and DDD is slow and fat in the air. **** this stage. I would even ban this sooner than Norfair. Once you ban this, they may consider counterpicking Frigate Orpheon, to harass your recovery with Shuttle Loop and d-air on the right side of the first phase of the stage.

As far as counterpicking Metaknight. I'd say Final Destination or Halberd, whichever one they don't ban. Speaking of which, the OP lists Final Destination as "Bad" as a neutral stage because they can outspace/outcamp you. I'm not sure I agree with that, I might even argue for "Best". It gives you more space to deal with tornado and to avoid getting pressured to the ledge, where DDD fails (compared to metaknight's ledge traps). I pick FD and camp the center of the stage, where you can KO him and he can't KO you until much higher percent. I'd use Halberd as my second choice in case they ban FD. The low ceiling obviously benefits you (dSmash, uSmash, and uTilt KO off the top well, uAir or dAir can do it too if they're in the air with a low ceiling), but just be careful of the fact that MK does have good options to pop you into the air, and up-airs + shuttle loop CAN KO you off the top, which is infuriating to have happen to you as DDD. Also beware of ledge camping + attacking you from under the stage in the flying-around phase of the stage.

Corneria and Yoshi's Island (Melee) have low ceilings, lower than halberd, so i guess you could consider them if they're not banned.

VS. Snake: use your ban on Brinstar. For counterpicking - Castle Siege (walk-offs), Delfino Plaza (walk-offs And walls)... a lot of options should be fine actually. Green Greens or anything with permanent walls should be banned, if they're not, go for it

 

[cubaisdeath]

most tournaments (especially around nor cal) don't offer corneria or green greens as a counterpick. also around here they don't allow norfair as a counterpick....which was my fault lol

 

[CO18]

FD Isnt bad for Dedede vs mk, I would consider it good as well.

 

[hizzlum]

Is Lylat not a starter stage in Northern California?



As far as counterpicking Metaknight. I'd say Final Destination or Halberd, whichever one they don't ban. Speaking of which, the OP lists Final Destination as "Bad" as a neutral stage because they can outspace/outcamp you. I'm not sure I agree with that, I might even argue for "Best". It gives you more space to deal with tornado and to avoid getting pressured to the ledge, where DDD fails (compared to metaknight's ledge traps). I pick FD and camp the center of the stage, where you can KO him and he can't KO you until much higher percent. I'd use Halberd as my second choice in case they ban FD. The low ceiling obviously benefits you (dSmash, uSmash, and uTilt KO off the top well, uAir or dAir can do it too if they're in the air with a low ceiling), but just be careful of the fact that MK does have good options to pop you into the air, and up-airs + shuttle loop CAN KO you off the top, which is infuriating to have happen to you as DDD. Also beware of ledge camping + attacking you from under the stage in the flying-around phase of the stage.

Corneria and Yoshi's Island (Melee) have low ceilings, lower than halberd, so i guess you could consider them if they're not banned.

VS. Snake: use your ban on Brinstar. For counterpicking - Castle Siege (walk-offs), Delfino Plaza (walk-offs And walls)... a lot of options should be fine actually. Green Greens or anything with permanent walls should be banned, if they're not, go for it

remeber I going off the SBR stage declartion list(from counterpicks up), so these are the stages allowed in what the SBR thinks is the best ruleset. Your thoughts on MK are helpful and also that of co18's, and something that me and Cuba talked about, and i will put it to OK rather than bad.

 

[Gates]

Why would Corneria not be your first choice for a ban against Game & Watch? It's practically his best stage. He can kill off the top of the fin with an Usmash or Dsmash at under 100% and the weird angles play to his advantage more than yours as well.

 

[bschung]

Furthermore, Game + Watch can fill his bucket off the lasers that the Arwings shoot on Corneria. Rainbow Cruise and Norfair are also stages to be careful of vs. Game and Watch. And frigate orpheon as counterpick? No way man... a lot of game + watch players counterpick frigate orpheon themselves! If your G+W is halfway decent he's not going to get his recovery gimped on the right side.

I still think counterpicking snake to Castle Siege can be a fine idea for its walkoff edges, and I still think Brinstar should be on the suggested ban list for snake... and Rainbow Cruise and Norfair on the suggested ban list for metaknight. You should just have multiple stages listed, especially if a stage you list is already banned, to give an idea what other stages you might want to prepare for since you only do get one ban per set.

Also, regarding vs. Metaknight on Final Destination, two opinions for "good" plus two opinions for "bad", results in "OK" ... ?