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Advanced 2v2 Play (Update #1: 6-21-10)

∫unk

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
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more than one place
In this thread, I will be sharing my knowledge on doubles. The goal is to enlighten all inexperienced doubles players on better mindsets for doubles. If there's ever a point in doubles you're not sure what to do, then this thread is for you.

I'm not going to write out everything in one sitting but I will keep the last update in the title. I plan on updating at least weekly, although it may be more frequent.

Please read the entire thread before asking questions. I'm hoping other experienced players help answer questions, as I'm already busy enough writing this.

AiB Link: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=73990

#1: Doubles Friendlies

It seems odd that I'll talk about this first, but it's incredibly important to your development as a player. It's how you're choosing to train. What skills do you want to improve on?

Most people love doubles friendlies. There's more attacking, less camping, more combos. If your partner is decent, you won't ever lose to a single player's momentum.

However, doubles friendlies aren't that great for your improvement as a player. Why?
  1. Like mentioned above, if your partner is decent, you will rarely suffer significant strings of attack (unless you're getting combo'd by 2 players). You don't learn how to escape things if your partner is helping you all the time (as they should be). Similarly, you can run away to your partner if you're losing vs. someone and they should be able to help you.
  2. 2v1's are much more rewarding than 1v1's (if both players in the "2" know what they're doing), to the point where you should constantly look for the 2v1 opportunity. Most of the highest priorities in doubles are non-existent in singles. Note: Most players do not care for this principle, and elect to do 2 1v1's during doubles. This is not a great way to play doubles. While it will work if you are better than your opponent, you aren't actually learning how to play with the natural advantage doubles gives you.
  3. In doubles, there's no space and time to be tricky. It's mostly just close combat reads (there are exceptions). A basic playstyle goes a long way in doubles.
  4. Getting kills are easier due to more unforeseen events happening. Kill moves become safer due to your partner being able to also attack during your lag (dismissing any chance for a counterattack). Or, if they're not close enough for that, to run up and get a kill during the counterattack's lag. In fact, doubles can teach you certain habits which are "okay" in doubles, but horrible in singles.

Your doubles skill is limited by your singles skill. This doesn't work the other way around. You have to win the close combat situations, all the 1v1's. That's what starts the "doubles momentum". You can have all the doubles skills in the world, but it's limited if you're constantly losing the "neutral situation" vs other players.

This is why singles friendlies should be stressed more than doubles friendlies, although doubles friendlies tend to be more fun.

Situations to be wary of during doubles friendlies:
  • 3 overwhelmingly better players (or only 3 good doubles players) in a playgroup.
The problem that arises when there's 3 good doubles players 2 of them end up teaming. Then they won't lose unless they get lazy or a switch is forced, and the other good double player has to sit there frustrated as the teammate isn't following up like a higher level doubles player would have. You could say, "It's just for lulz"; but by the time that 3rd player loses 3-4 times in a row and the result is outside of their control, it starts going from "lol" to "..."
  • 5 players in a playgroup.
Also, if there are 5 people in the playgroup, most groups play "first person to die goes out". First person out is a bad system, as it actually favors NOT helping your teammate and running away (generally bad doubles strategy). There's a lot of times I've had to give up the slot because I go and help the teammate, then they go and run off to fight whoever, completely ignoring the fact that I'm about to be punished in my lag for helping them. This is extremely common among smash players who are inexperienced in doubles.

The solution to these situations is up to you.

#2: Starting Position Analysis (covering common stages)

Later
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
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Location
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2v1's are much more rewarding than 1v1's (if both players in the "2" know what they're doing), to the point where you should constantly look for the 2v1 opportunity. Most of the highest priorities in doubles are non-existent in singles. Note: Most players do not care for this principle, and elect to do 2 1v1's during doubles. This is not a great way to play doubles. While it will work if you are better than your opponent, you aren't actually learning how to play with the natural advantage doubles gives you.


Did I mention I love you Junk?
 

Toneh

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
1,353
Location
Orlando, Florida (UCF)
* 5 players in a playgroup.
Also, if there are 5 people in the playgroup, most groups play "first person to die goes out". First person out is a bad system, as it actually favors NOT helping your teammate and running away (generally bad doubles strategy). There's a lot of times I've had to give up the slot because I go and help the teammate, then they go and run off to fight whoever, completely ignoring the fact that I'm about to be punished in my lag for helping them. This is extremely common among smash players who are inexperienced in doubles.
what me and my friends do is this: 1st person to die on the losing team goes out. That way everyone tries their hardest and even if your the 1st to die, you can stay in if ur teammate wins the match
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
what me and my friends do is this: 1st person to die on the losing team goes out. That way everyone tries their hardest and even if your the 1st to die, you can stay in if ur teammate wins the match
I had a thought.


Second to die on the losing team goes out.



Think about it.



You're forced to prioritize protecting your teammate like an actual teams match.
 

Toneh

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
1,353
Location
Orlando, Florida (UCF)
hmm that may work haha, unless ur teammate is like playing really bad and SD's everywhere or has a bad game. Wouldn't be fair to the teammate who is playing good. I think thats why we just do 1st out losing team.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
hmm that may work haha, unless ur teammate is like playing really bad and SD's everywhere or has a bad game. Wouldn't be fair to the teammate who is playing good. I think thats why we just do 1st out losing team.
Firstly, teammates win or lose as a team, either player "deserves" to get kicked off. The way to pick who gets off should be using a manner that encourages good teams play, not being "fair" to the loosing team, because they both should be kicked off, but there's not two people waiting.



People don't wanna lose, they're not gonna kill themselves on purpose to make sure they stay on when protecting their teammate helps them win AND helps them stay on.



Because it encourages protection of your teammate and overall cooperative play, it should be the standard.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,066
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
GadielVaStar
I have some questions.

*What should one be looking @ when playing doubles(percents, teammate, whole-screen)?
*Are habits important to discover and punish in doubles?
 
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