Adv. techs argument

[BBQ]

The lack of advanced techniques and slower gameplay makes the game have less depth which of course lessens the competiveness of the game IMO making it crap. Imagine the game to be a competitve sport such as tennis. The more time you put in the better you will be. Taking out mulitple adv. techs leaves the game to learning the matchups and then just mind games. Not taking practice and dedication to be good. Learning the matchups does not take that much time. Mindgames only get you so far. In a future theoretical tournament of 32 of the best smashers you might as well draw names from a hat. Lets just put items in as well!!!

 

[Zodiac]

Yea, thats true to a point, there will still be skill, other advanced techs will be discovered but I highly doubt that Brawl will have a competitive scene even half that of melee. why? because sakurai was obligated to market to the ****ING CASUAL GAMER.

 

[Bakuryu]

The lack of advanced techniques and slower gameplay makes the game have less depth which of course lessens the competiveness of the game IMO making it crap. Imagine the game to be a competitve sport such as tennis. The more time you put in the better you will be. Taking out mulitple adv. techs leaves the game to learning the matchups and then just mind games. Not taking practice and dedication to be good. Learning the matchups does not take that much time. Mindgames only get you so far. In a future theoretical tournament of 32 of the best smashers you might as well draw names from a hat. Lets just put items in as well!!!

Can I have the copy of brawl you have then?

 

[MajinSweet]

We have no idea how technical Brawl will be in 6 years. Just because Brawl doesn't have Melee's advanced techs, or as many techs as Melee A FEW DAYS AFTER ITS RELEASED doesn't mean its tapped. Be patient people, Melee metagame wasn't built in a day.

 

[draigaran]

We don't even have the game yet, much less any in depth knowledge about the potential competitiveness...
Besides, can you blame Sakurai? Brawl was made to make money :b. And I think it's good that more people become interested in Smash. As long as a range of new techniques that bring a wide breadth to Brawl are discovered, I won't mind the lack of Melee tactics. On the other hand, if none show up, which is highly unlikely... well, I'll worry about that on March 9th.

 

[5@/\/\U5]

god some of you people are so fickle and filled with such a penchant for oversight. People are getting their very first taste of a new game, chill the **** out

 

[Dojo999]

I disagree. I think that there are plenty of other things to practice, other than advance techniques. Some people practice with just the normal moves on a character, get acquainted with them, learn to use them in the right situations, other stuff like that. And even some combo/techs made up on your own. The loss of some adv. techs may take away a layer from the overall game, but in the big picture it was a layer only some of us could see. If you and the rest of the group you speak for are as cometitive as you say, you will have no problem holding your own without the adv. techs, or you'll just make up new ones.
I don't think you can justify calling the entire game crap based on this one aspect.

P.S. I've made this argument before and no one has answered me. Are these techniques all you have? You literally said without them, winning is completely randomized. How is this so. You guys don't have any other skills/strategies/mindgames. All your competitions are based on who does these moves the best I guess. Which is weird since you'd think itd be who plays the entirety of the game best.

 

[Thinkaman]

BBQ, when I get back to my computer with AIM, I'm gonna slap some sense into you.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

The lack of advanced techniques and slower gameplay makes the game have less depth which of course lessens the competiveness of the game IMO making it crap. Imagine the game to be a competitve sport such as tennis. The more time you put in the better you will be. Taking out mulitple adv. techs leaves the game to learning the matchups and then just mind games. Not taking practice and dedication to be good. Learning the matchups does not take that much time. Mindgames only get you so far. In a future theoretical tournament of 32 of the best smashers you might as well draw names from a hat. Lets just put items in as well!!!

Don't buy the game simple as that we have enough problems already with this roster and such.

 

[Firestorm88]

Yeah, because wavedashing, dashdancing, double stick DI, etc. were all figured out the day of Melee's release.

I think you should stop making topics.

 

[Sl1th]

Stop complaining about the loss of melee adv. techs and start hailing the fact that we will probably find new and possibly more advanced ones in the future.

 

[A New Challenger]

I love playing Smash at high levels and all, but c'mon. As far as fighting games, it's always been the simplified party game type. It's not up there with Garou. SF3 and VF5 on a technical level. It's more along the lines of DoA.

Moreover, Wavedashing was an exploited glitch that became metagame, not an engine feature. And it looked silly as all ****. Glitches get fixed. Move on.

 

[choknater]

IMO, the greatest things that will change the gameplay are two main things:

1. hit stun
2. floatiness

Overall these two properties of the game will show the biggest change from Melee, no matter what people think. Therefore, if you think about it... the game will be ALL about playing smart and precise. Precision requires tech skill, even if it's not as fast or difficult as the tech skill in melee.

There will be a huge emphasis on weight, DI, and zoning in this game... combos will still exist but I'd imagine they'll be less of an issue than in melee... at least for now, when people haven't developed ways to do major combos yet.

Don't cry over losing the techs, because you still have to play like a pro - smart, intuitive, creative, and adaptive - in order to be good.

 

[Epsilon52]

there are advanced techs...

and this game si getting faster as i see videos. once the right ppl get it in there hands its game over..speed will return. go watch a video of the first melee matches...slow as hell.

 

[draigaran]

Stop complaining about the loss of melee adv. techs and start hailing the fact that we will probably find new and possibly more advanced ones in the future.

Thank you. If we're not willing to find new tactics, then that defeats the purpose of playing competitively, no?

 

[FlyinG ShoosteR]

The lack of advanced techniques and slower gameplay makes the game have less depth which of course lessens the competiveness of the game IMO making it crap. Imagine the game to be a competitve sport such as tennis. The more time you put in the better you will be. Taking out mulitple adv. techs leaves the game to learning the matchups and then just mind games. Not taking practice and dedication to be good. Learning the matchups does not take that much time. Mindgames only get you so far. In a future theoretical tournament of 32 of the best smashers you might as well draw names from a hat. Lets just put items in as well!!!

I know, right? I mean, isn't it awful that we actually have to learn how to be good at SSB, rather than take advantage of glitches that weren't supposed to be there in the first place? God forbid we actually have to play the game the way it is supposed to be played! Blasphemy, I say! I want a glitch filled game that only people with an endless amount free time will be good at! (/sarcasm)

In all seriousness, get over it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ignoring irrational people who insist being good at the game is exploiting it and getting back to the topic at hand: what the point of having a new game without new techs? Complaining that wavedashing is out as a side effect of having a massive new air system is like having your car replaced with a jet and complaining that the tires are smaller.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Taking out mulitple adv. techs leaves the game to learning the matchups and then just mind games. Not taking practice and dedication to be good. Learning the matchups does not take that much time. Mindgames only get you so far.

Eh? the smarter fighter is the victor, not the one who can wave-dash the most perfectly.

 

[The_Corax_King]

Ignoring irrational people who insist being good at the game is exploiting it and getting back to the topic at hand: what the point of having a new game without new techs? Complaining that wavedashing is out as a side effect of having a massive new air system is like having your car replaced with a jet and complaining that the tires are smaller.

haha...


1st place goes to you...




I'm tired of explaining this... Melee had a competitive scene long before any advanced techs were discovered... all advanced techs did was make people better... People will still become godlike in brawl, and will most likely discover new techs on top of that to make them even better...


The only reason advanced techs were ever utilized is because melee was competitive in the first place...


Melee's competitive scene gave birth to advanced techs... NOT the other way around...

 

[PyrasTerran]

Melee's competitive scene gave birth to advanced techs... NOT the other way around...

Best quote all day long in this sea of complaint threads <_>

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Last I checked, advanced techniques were not known until quite some time into Melee. They really didn't surface until about a year into the game. I think your judging the game way too early. Besides, this isn't Melee, stop thinking in this fashion because that is what you're doing. You're expecting the same kind of techniques for a completely different game.

 

[Cranberry Rogue]

So we can't L-cancel anymore. Big deal. Have you seen the videos around the net. Aerial attacks have a lot less lag attached to them afterward once you land on the ground, so I don't really see the need to have L-canceling any more. All L-canceling did was prevent people that didn't have incredible button pressing precision from playing the game to the best of their abilities. If taking out advanced techniques can help balance out gameplay and prevent people from becoming demi-gods at the game, then I think it is for the better.

 

[Aerozeke]

I know that this game isn't Melee. I know that people shouldn't obsess themselves with the same, old advanced techniques.

My only concern is that we will end up not finding any ATs at all in Brawl... which wouldn't surprise me, since I suspect Sakurai and pals have been working hard to clear the game of exploits and the like. It wouldn't surprise me one bit...

 

[PyrasTerran]

"Melee's competitive scene gave birth to advanced techs... NOT the other way around..."

Sakurai already messed up with the roster and movesets.. In the highly unlikely event that the game is completely devoid of leftover programming to exploit, the game will still be played by millions, still be hosted in tournaments, and still have bigger lines and participation than any other fighting game available. If so many people played competitively BEFORE advanced techniques were discovered, what difference would it make with Brawl?

Just because there may not be anything to take explicit advantage of doesn't mean that new advanced techniques can't be discovered within the boundaries of the game's set physical rules.

 

[StellaNova]

Yea I would be sad if there were NO AT's in it whatsoever, I want something I can practice OCD like and become proficient at. Regardless of how the game is supposed to be played, having another way to spice it up is always nice.

 

[BBQ]

Yes many good points. Im sorry if my post came out in a wrong tone(a whiny omg brawl sux one). It was in reference to the arguments weighing the importance of adv. techs. If Brawl doesnt have as many adv techs and has less technical depth it wont be as good as melee from a competitive standpoint. I just have a fear of the competitiveness being smushed out of this game.

 

[BBQ]

So we can't L-cancel anymore. Big deal. Have you seen the videos around the net. Aerial attacks have a lot less lag attached to them afterward once you land on the ground, so I don't really see the need to have L-canceling any more. All L-canceling did was prevent people that didn't have incredible button pressing precision from playing the game to the best of their abilities. If taking out advanced techniques can help balance out gameplay and prevent people from becoming demi-gods at the game, then I think it is for the better.

EXACTLY WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT
if everyone can just pick up the game and be at the same speed the competitiveness is lost. "incredible button pressing precision"??? I f they dont have the ability to do it than THATS THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Brawl is a new game. You shouldn't expect it to be the same as everything else.

Adapting is such a hard thing to separate from.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Brawl is a new game. You shouldn't expect it to be the same as everything else.

Adapting is such a hard thing to separate from.

Change is a natural human fear. From Women's Rights to Civil Rights, to even Newb's Rights apparently

 

[BBQ]

I just dont want the fun that comes with competitiveness(gameplay depth) to be gone. Im not saying it is but its looking that way from overall slower gameplay and things like "auto-lock" features added to recoveries.

 

[Kamaji]

I agree with BBQ. I think its going to be a good game, but not nearly as good as melee. Like kirby's air ride; you love playing it with your friends, but its just not as competitve, a nice "feel-good" game.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Change is a natural human fear. From Women's Rights to Civil Rights, to even Newb's Rights apparently

there are still those who adapt remarkably quickly, though. usually they're laid-back or just don't care xD

 

[PyrasTerran]

I just dont want the fun that comes with competitiveness(gameplay depth) to be gone. Im not saying it is but its looking that way from overall slower gameplay and things like "auto-lock" features added to recoveries.

At least in my view, those features are a good thing, because they FORCE us to use our minds and think BEYOND patterns and back-up plans, not memorize button sequences.

Brawl is forcing us to be creative, just like Melee forced 64 champions to be creative and come up with new strategies. Is that so bad?

 

[sakuraZaKi]

At least in my view, those features are a good thing, because they FORCE us to use our minds and think BEYOND patterns and back-up plans, not memorize button sequences.

Brawl is forcing us to be creative, just like Melee forced 64 champions to be creative and come up with new strategies. Is that so bad?

I agree with all that. Like I said, Brawl is a new game. Don't even think of it as the next in the series. Just start doing what you did in Melee.

Also, I don't see the reason why people are still complaining about the characters. If they don't like it, don't play it.

Otherwise, let them play and see what POWER Brawl brings. that's right, POWER

 

[lazychi]

I also agree with PyrasTerra

You must find very creative ways to find new techniques, thats how they were invented. I mean look at wavedashing? Im assuming that most people, when they first bought the game wouldn't of thought to air dash right back on to the ground after a jump. It seems unreasonable to do so, but when someone did so by mistake/trying it out, it created one of the most effective techs in the game

Not only that, they started to use that new glitch/tech to make new techs. Like wavelanding of platforms into attacks, mindgames, evasive techniques, combos.

So whose to say that we wont find a similar techinique by mistake? It just takes TIME

 

[Lord Knight]

Look at this

Don't worry, Brawl will grow the same way Melee will. People are being really stupid over this.

 

[lazychi]

See that link to the earliest tourneys was great

you see how much melee has evolved? we will probably start around that level and it will grow. I mean you dont see many adv. techs being used just yet in that tourney, it wasnt completely developed yet. We will develop it in brawl like we did in Melee

 

[drengist]

Wow. That's video surely puts thing into perspective.

 

[ZSnake]

I disagree. I think that there are plenty of other things to practice, other than advance techniques. Some people practice with just the normal moves on a character, get acquainted with them, learn to use them in the right situations, other stuff like that. And even some combo/techs made up on your own. The loss of some adv. techs may take away a layer from the overall game, but in the big picture it was a layer only some of us could see. If you and the rest of the group you speak for are as cometitive as you say, you will have no problem holding your own without the adv. techs, or you'll just make up new ones.
I don't think you can justify calling the entire game crap based on this one aspect.

P.S. I've made this argument before and no one has answered me. Are these techniques all you have? You literally said without them, winning is completely randomized. How is this so. You guys don't have any other skills/strategies/mindgames. All your competitions are based on who does these moves the best I guess. Which is weird since you'd think itd be who plays the entirety of the game best.

Thats so true.

 

[Dan-E]

I disagree. I think that there are plenty of other things to practice, other than advance techniques. Some people practice with just the normal moves on a character, get acquainted with them, learn to use them in the right situations, other stuff like that. And even some combo/techs made up on your own. The loss of some adv. techs may take away a layer from the overall game, but in the big picture it was a layer only some of us could see. If you and the rest of the group you speak for are as cometitive as you say, you will have no problem holding your own without the adv. techs, or you'll just make up new ones.
I don't think you can justify calling the entire game crap based on this one aspect.

P.S. I've made this argument before and no one has answered me. Are these techniques all you have? You literally said without them, winning is completely randomized. How is this so. You guys don't have any other skills/strategies/mindgames. All your competitions are based on who does these moves the best I guess. Which is weird since you'd think itd be who plays the entirety of the game best.

That's a horrible horrible argument because noone is saying that competitive players won't be able to hold their own without the new techniques. Noone has ever said that noone ever will.

Take a pro to single button melee and they'll still 4 stock your random casual. I promise you that if you are a casual player your mindgames and analytical abilities are absolutely horrendous compared to a veteran of the melee tourney scene. That's just based off of the simple fact that every single casual who has ever challenged a pro has come away humiliated.

The reason we want the advanced techniques is because they add depth. Plain and simple. They make the game more fun for us. More depth = more replay value = more skill = more fun. That's how it is for us competitives.

I know this post will probably be misinterpreted and taken out of context but whatever.