About PSA characters (Information, Read)

[SuSa]

OH. Guys. Yea. WBR isnt adding custom characters to B+. Stop asking now.

Seriously guys. Stop asking. It's been said a thousand times, and I think people are just too lazy to read replies a page before them (sometimes mere posts above them) so here is a **** topic for it.

Hopefully enough people see this thread...

Yes. I felt this was worthy enough for it's own thread. It will fall off the first page rather quickly.

 

[timothyung]

I have a feeling that this thread will become the thread to dabate why or why not we should include custom characters in Brawl+, and how to choose them.
There are enough reasons to include them, and also not to include them. We should discuss this instead of just saying no >.>

 

[Red-Blue]

You might let some Russian asswipe bang your woman, but I won't.

 

[Deleted member]

no = no

lrn2math

 

[Anth0ny]

buttt whyr not wispe is sooo kool.,

 

[SuSa]

What people don't fully understand - is it still comes down to the TO. <_<

They aren't the 100% say-so of how your tournament is run.

It's just they don't support it. (EG: the MK ban and the SBR. People still host NMK (no MK) tourneys...

 

[superyoshi888]

^but that's always been the case. If people wanted to hold Roy-enabled tourneys, they should be able to. I don't see why most people see the SBR as the word of god...

 

[DarkDragoon]

You might let some Russian asswipe bang your woman, but I won't.

Lo...l?

I have a feeling that this thread will become the thread to dabate why or why not we should include custom characters in Brawl+, and how to choose them.
There are enough reasons to include them, and also not to include them. We should discuss this instead of just saying no >.>

>_> Personally, the only reason I'm working on Mewtwo is because I hope it to be included with Brawl+ at some point. I don't do this kind of ridiculous amount of work just for "fun" or e-fame, I wanna play my favorite smash character in a tournament.

Working on a PSA character that needs to be properly balanced and worked when he doesn't even have a proper model is not even close to fun.

<_< So yea, that's my piece. I won't make dozens of characters and expect them all added, I just expect a completely finished, balanced, and functional Mewtwo[Doc, Roy, etc.] could/should be added.
-DD

 

[kataklysm336]

I don't think that characters should be added to Brawl+ as the standard (or regular brawl) however I do think there should be access to downloadable characters that do not override other characters. For instance what if someone wants to play as Shadow, but also wants to play as Sonic?

I am not a hacker so I have no idea the amount of work it takes to accomplish such a task, but I suggest something like a Download screen (similar to guitar hero). For example by pressing Z (or some other un used button) someone could toggle to a screen of downloadable characters. You could just go online and download the characters you wish to play as and they would appear on this screen.

Like i said before I don't know how realistic that idea is, but it would be a way to give everyone what they want I believe. If people wanted to use them in home tournaments then they could, but it would never become the standard.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

 

[Revven]

It's not realistic, at all... (your idea).

The ACTUAL realistic idea would be to have them as alts of the current characters... which has been in the works for monthsssss.

 

[kciD]

It would be nice to still have the added characters in a non-tournament form of Brawl+. Even if this doesn't "officially" happen, I'll still play with the Melee characters that were left out of Brawl (and probably Shadow) just because...as long as they don't become over-balanced or broken.

It would be kind of the SBR to look through these characters and decide if they are balanced just for home play, and still leave them out of official tournaments (of course, depending on the host of the tournaments, they could be included).

I don't know how much the SBR has to deal with, I'm sure with Brawl+ they're busy enough. Maybe after the gold release, it could be a possibility for the SBR to look at the "added" characters and decide whether they are balanced, just for us guys that don't go to tournaments.

Like I said, if they don't, I'm most likely going to play them anyways. It would just be an added bonus.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I believe that certain ones (Dr. Mario, Roy, for example) should be available in tournaments... but the logic against that is sound. Also, back to the top with this.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, this is pretty stupid. I know there's a crusade starting where WBR members want to see Doc / Roy in an official build. But then the flood gates are opened, and precedents exist. So to avoid being stupid and tyrannical like the SBR, let's just not include any for tournament builds.

Or just include them, but keep them off to a special "secret character" section

 

[DarkDragoon]

Yeah, this is pretty stupid. I know there's a crusade starting where WBR members want to see Doc / Roy in an official build. But then the flood gates are opened, and precedents exist. So to avoid being stupid and tyrannical like the SBR, let's just not include any for tournament builds.

Or just include them, but keep them off to a special "secret character" section

e_e Or they can take the easy route in the "inclusion" factor and just say Melee Characters only.

>_> Yea, it bones Shadow & basically everyone else, but they can fight their way though to get them in some other way.
-DD

 

[Roxas215]

If a char is balanced i dont have a problem with them added. Doc,Roy,Mewtwo,Shadow. If made right and not half ***** adding them is fine. However when u do this then the gates are open for nonsense chars. So to avoid that not adding them at all is probably the way to go. However i think the chars that are tested and known to be balanced will be allowed at small weeklies.monthlies etc.

 

[Slashy]

They are limited though. Every character should be as unique as possible with the tools provided, if there are limitations, then they don't deserve to be in.

 

[Shadic]

e_e Or they can take the easy route in the "inclusion" factor and just say Melee Characters only.

>_> Yea, it bones Shadow & basically everyone else, but they can fight their way though to get them in some other way.
-DD

Exactly. I see that as the easiest way.

 

[[TSON]]

Once we have the cloning engine, those in the WBR have no reasoning to say no other than "WE ARE THE WBR WE RUN THIS BETCH" which obviously isn't going to sit well with anyone outside it. Balanced and widely approved characters should be let in. But at the moment that's only the Melee crew.

 

[GHNeko]

Lol character bias.

And this is the part where I lol at people going to far with B+.

 

[Viquey]

I can see Melee characters being added "officially", and I don't really see why not, if they're good and balanced and true to their originals and all. Especially once we get model hacking and that clone engine.

As for other characters--such as the awesomesauce Wisp--sure they may not be added officially, but I think there's a middle ground between that and only-for-home-play/maybe up to the TOs. And that is, something like a complex/picky approval process to form a roster of recommended characters. So they're not standard or official, but... they're still readily available for tourney. Kinda like suggestions. Or the stages in the Counterpick/Banned category--could be allowed, could be banned, up to the TO. But they're still there, still known, still options.

You know what I mean? XD I just think custom characters are too fun/cool/etc., and their creators put too much work into them, for them to just be silly little things you can play with for fun. If they're really balanced, and people really like to play with them, then why not allow them in tourney, at least in SOME capacity?

 

[GHNeko]

Melee character's aren't coming back.

Just because we can. Doesn't mean we should.

There really is no legit reason as to why we should add ANY character to Brawl+ as well.

Stop trying guys. <_>

 

[DarkDragoon]

>_> Well then the logical way to get it "official" is to have it catch on with a bunch of TOs...like how Brawl+ started out in an tournament scene...then there would be a better chance of them being added.

*sigh*
-DD

 

[Shadic]

There really is no legit reason as to why we should add ANY character to Brawl+ as well.

Because Roy's our Boy.

/thread

 

[GHNeko]

I did say Legit didnt I?


ohhhhhh burn.

 

[FSLink]

Once we have the cloning engine, those in the WBR have no reasoning to say no other than "WE ARE THE WBR WE RUN THIS BETCH" which obviously isn't going to sit well with anyone outside it. Balanced and widely approved characters should be let in. But at the moment that's only the Melee crew.

Wouldn't the cloning engine only allow 7 new characters to be added with portraits? Since it's Nana, Wario Man, Giga Bowser, and the 4 Alloys being replaced...

Why not just selectively choose 7 well made characters to be included? Include proper color swaps, announcer, nice looking character icons, etc. I do think it'd be ridiculous to have people go "LET'S ADD SHADOW AND SILVER AND KNUCKLES AND *explodes*" so I definitely see why the WBR has to say "No" to character requests. But I think adding Roy and Dr. Mario, and perhaps if model hacking develops more, Mewtwo and 4 newcomers.

There isn't a real need for additional characters, but if they're polished, I think the WBR should look into it. But since the means for polishing them don't exist yet (No way to insert voices, no way to insert models), I think people should shut the hell up about "HEY LET'S ADD ISAAC!" And if the WBR were to add new characters, I would think the best thing is for them to decide alone, a community providing input on deciding new characters would just be a cluster**** of whining and *****ing.

There really is no legit reason as to why we should add ANY character to Brawl+ as well.

Honestly the only reason I'd want new characters is because there was the "Forbidden Seven". I couldn't have been the only one who was pretty disappointed at seeing Dixie Kong and Mewtwo getting the cut (though thank god they cut Plusle+Minun) It'd just be really interesting if hackers went and further completed the game and actually implemented new characters, not just some .pac replacing. Other than that, I'd be fine with the game as is.

 

[[TSON]]

Melee character's aren't coming back.

Just because we can. Doesn't mean we should.

There really is no legit reason as to why we should add ANY character to Brawl+ as well.

Stop trying guys. <_>

There's no legit reason why they shouldn't be added either, is there? >_<

But

I remember people combatting Melee 2.0 claims with "Treat Brawl+ like its own game", well what's a new smash game without new characters? ;~;

 

[GHNeko]

Actually, there's more reason to not add characters then to add them.

They dont NEED to be in Brawl+ for one.
Adding in Melee characters could be used against Brawl+ in Melee 2.0 claims.
They weren't in the game of Brawl to begin with.
More character's for WBR to balance in the long run. (Just because they're released as balanced, doesnt mean they are, see Wisp.)
Brawl+ isn't MUGEN. : p
They still wouldn't be their own characters.

And lastly, but most importantly.

Adding in character's is going too far, and adds to my reason as to why we need limts to know where to stop when it comes to change in this game. No character has more of a right to get added than another character. The fact that they were in Melee doesn't matter either.

It's not even a part of what Brawl+ is intended to do.

No where in the mission statement does it say anything about adding secondary characters. It's not even a small goal because frankly, we've got bigger issues to deal with. :V

Whatever method we come up with to allow secondary PSA characters in Brawl+ is nothing more than a method to alleviate the problem of replacing characters so you can live up your fanboy fantasies once again when it comes to "Marth vs Roy", "Sonic vs Shadow", and "Mewtwo vs Lucario."

And we want you to have fun as well.

And while I think all the legit PSA characters are amazing and great as well as having my full support for their own board, they just dont have a home in official plus. >_>

 

[timothyung]

We make Brawl+ because we're disappointed at Brawl. We're disappointed that Roy, Mewtwo, Doc, (and maybe) Young Link and Pichu are left out. We want them to be in the game. Now we can add them, so we add them! What's the problem?

Even if they're not going to be official, we should, like what Viquey said, make a list of balanced and polished characters which are acceptable in tournament play, and let TOs decide.

 

[GHNeko]

Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

And having them "balanced and polished" doesn't mean they should be acceptable for tourney play.

You know? Leaving that up to TO discretion is going to do nothing but causes issues in the long run because generally, large-scall tourneys, just like Brawl and Melee follow SBR codesets, Brawl+ tourneys would follow WBR codesets, and if WBR doesn't allow custom characters in said large scale tourneys, why would people even pick up said characters for tourneys?

It's not the same thing as banning a character either.

The inconsistancy of having different regions allowing specific custom characters and banning others or just allowing/banning custom characters as a whole, and having large scale tourneys follow WBR rules creates nothing but headache really. :/

Hell, the fact that people have character bias and TOs are people is not good at all. TOs can ban characters simply for distaste or beliefs.

It has to be an "all-or-nothing" thing.

And really, the potential for the issues that lie within custom-characters should be more than enough to not allow them in tourney play.

 

[[TSON]]

EDIT: NekoNinja

 

[timothyung]

Just because we can doesn't mean we shouldn't either >.>
And all the reasons you stated will not happen if we add characters into Brawl+ officially.

 

[TheComrade]

Hey, kinda new to posting here, but I hope no one minds if I throw in my two cents.

Personally, I think that it is still too early to seriously debate this issue; character creation simply hasn't yet advanced to such a point that they can be said to possess the same depth and uniqueness of gameplay as possessed by the characters included by the original programmers (though Wisp is incredibly impressive).

Additionally, the talk of adding only "balanced" characters is kind of sticky if for no other reason than that balance is not an easy thing to determine. I mean, remember how long it took for people to decide whether or not Metaknight was balanced enough to be allowed in tournaments? And that's an official character that had been strictly play-tested with the standard physics and attributes of the game. As it is, there's going to be enough trouble bringing people to consensus and acceptance about how those fundamental attributes will be set, and what that means for the balance of the game's already considerable roster of characters.

Still, I know many of us have our own favorite characters that we would want to see in Brawl or that we feel should have been included for one reason or another (a playable Little Mac is my own personal pipedream). However, both Brawl+ and character creation are still emerging and evolving creative fields within the world of SSBB, and it is still too early for the two to meet in a tournament environment. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the two fields are still too young for a complete and fruitful debate to be held on the matter; after all, there is still too much speculation about what will or will not be.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Thanks for listening, again I apologize if anyone feels that I have spoken out of turn.

 

[superyoshi888]

Hey guys, if you want to hold a B+ tourney with the Melee crew then you can. Officially, they won't be allowed, but the rulesets are only general guidelines for the TOs. Of course it'll be up to the TO if a character is balanced enough to be used in their tourney, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem.

 

[Red Arremer]

I did say Legit didnt I?


ohhhhhh burn.

but r0y h4z t3h ph1r3!!1

 

[Roy-G-Biv]

but r0y h4z t3h ph1r3!!1

Ike haz a phire naow.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course everybody can use whatever character they want in their tournaments. We never said you couldn't play Brawl+ with items, but it just isn't what the intended purpose of the game (Brawl+, not vBrawl) was.

We will not balance the game with melee/other character in mind. EVER.
so go ahead and play with everybody you want in friendlies/small tournies, but the larger and "more official" tournaments will never, ever have custom characters.

 

[timothyung]

Being in Melee IS a reason for the characters to be officially included.
Brawl+ takes elements from the 3 installments of Smash, and combine them to make Brawl better. Melee characters should be included because they are once in Smash. Just like hitstun, which was removed from Brawl. We want it, so we add hitstun in. This thing is even more than a character: it changes the gameplay of Brawl drastically. Hitstun was in Melee and 64, but was removed from Brawl. There are characters removed from Brawl, but were in Melee, too. Why shouldn't they be officially included? They are different from any other custom characters because they were once in Smash.

 

[adrahil]

Unfortunately, not adding in the melee removed characters is probably going to create a huge separation in the + community. I understand that for now b+ is a beta, and lots of work has yet to be done rebalancing the current cast of characters to better create an even cast. But I hope that eventually a fairly stable, gold version is going to come about. After that, only minor tweaks should take place, so that people can be fairly certain their character isn't going to be drastically overhauled next build.

At that point, the workload is going to be drastically less than it is now, and I don't see rebalancing a few cut characters once a gold version of the current cast is met as too big of an undertaking. Think of it as an expansion pack. B+: Director's Cut.

People are putting a lot of work into these characters (particularly Roy and M2) and I don't think they're doing it so they can use them in friendlies. When you say things like 'People are going to play with WBR tournie rules, so they aren't going to have PSA characters' you really start looking overly arrogant. Eventually someone will start a splinter build with the aforementioned cast, with supporters of it working on their balance and rulesets, and it will take off.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

And having them "balanced and polished" doesn't mean they should be acceptable for tourney play.

You know? Leaving that up to TO discretion is going to do nothing but causes issues in the long run because generally, large-scall tourneys, just like Brawl and Melee follow SBR codesets, Brawl+ tourneys would follow WBR codesets, and if WBR doesn't allow custom characters in said large scale tourneys, why would people even pick up said characters for tourneys?

It's not the same thing as banning a character either.

The inconsistancy of having different regions allowing specific custom characters and banning others or just allowing/banning custom characters as a whole, and having large scale tourneys follow WBR rules creates nothing but headache really. :/

Hell, the fact that people have character bias and TOs are people is not good at all. TOs can ban characters simply for distaste or beliefs.

It has to be an "all-or-nothing" thing.

And really, the potential for the issues that lie within custom-characters should be more than enough to not allow them in tourney play.

The idea of "TO discretion" is stupid. Reason: would you like to go to a tournament and get blindsided by a matchup you don't know? Sure, include roy in your tournament. But how many people know how to play against him? Or more extreme-Wisp. Throw Wisp in, and an experienced Wisp player may clean house. It would be like a player's first encounter with Tabuu; he'd wonder what his opponent will do next because he has no clue. Wisp may not have a bunch of OHKO attacks, but it's still confusing to not know what the hell your opponent will be throwing at you. And an experienced Wisp player could clean house just with that advantage.

(I'm agreeing with Neko)

 

[leafbarrett]

People are putting a lot of work into these characters (particularly Roy and M2) and I don't think they're doing it so they can use them in friendlies. When you say things like 'People are going to play with WBR tournie rules, so they aren't going to have PSA characters' you really start looking overly arrogant.

This, this, THIS. What's the point of making Roy if nobody can use him except in friendlies? Same with Mewtwo, or Dr.Mario, etc. etc. Someone's just gonna say "Screw it" and branch off with their own version of Br-

Eventually someone will start a splinter build with the aforementioned cast, with supporters of it working on their balance and rulesets, and it will take off.

Yeah, this.