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Abortion?

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S_O_B_SlasherZ

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Here's a question what do you guys think on abortion....and no RELIGIOUS ARGUMENTS if some one says its wrong because of there religion leave it at that or your showing your ignorance!! <img border="0" alt="[Starman]" title="" src="graemlins/starman.gif" />
 

Mario27

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i just don't think its right to go have sex and then kill what you knew was going to be yours.
 

S_O_B_SlasherZ

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I agree although some may say what about people who get ***** less then a 1% of people that go to abortion clinics were ***** most is girls who cant keep there legs shut!!! <img border="0" alt="[Starman]" title="" src="graemlins/starman.gif" />
 

Massy

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Your moronic chauvinist disdain for women who have the sheer audacity to enjoy sex appals me. A guy sleeps around he's a stud, a girl does it she's a sļut. F*cking typical. I believe you term this "showing your ignorance!!!111 <img border="0" alt="[Starman]" title="" src="graemlins/starman.gif" /> "

I believe a woman has the right to choose whether or not to terminate her pregnancy up until the point that the foetus can survive outside the womb. Up until that point, it is a part of her body, because without her body, it is dead and useless. However after that point, the baby is a person capable of living a full life without it's mother, and therefore has a right to life.

If someone believes it is wrong because of their religon, they must justify it, and anybody can contend these claims. We call this "debate", not "showing your ignorance!!!111 <img border="0" alt="[Starman]" title="" src="graemlins/starman.gif" /> "

<small>[ March 08, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Massy ]</small>
 

MJS

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Massy, it may be a part of the mother before birth, but it's still got its own life. Abortion takes away that life. So, really, it's like killing babies, only getting it done earlier.
Abortion kills, and that's never cool. For all we know, abortion might have killed the future genius that could discover the cure for cancer or something of that sort. Think of great people in the world that live, and have lived. What if they were aborted?

<small>[ March 08, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Mewtwo_Jedi_Saiyan ]</small>
 

Massy

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Wooo, it didn't take long for the moral majority to spring out from under the bed. I'll address each point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this smashboards material??? Either way, an abortion is ungodly. God didn't wish for people to kill their own flesh and blood without the faetus even knowing it had died! Abortions are wrong to be blunt!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say yes, it is Smashboards material. This is the Pool Room, we debate stuff. Just because a topic cuts too close to the bone doesn't mean we should make it shut the **** up.

Here you make a point for me, which is kind. "without the faetus[sic] even knowing it had died" Exactly. The foetus is not a sentient being.

Next:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Abortion kills, and that's never cool. For all we know, abortion might have killed the future genius that could discover the cure for cancer or something of that sort. Think of great people in the world that live, and have lived. What if they were aborted?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The future genius could have been killed in a car crash, he could have been shot dead before his time, what's your point? Abortion is not killing, not the taking away of life, but the denial of life in the first place.

And I'm still waiting for someone to address the misogyny inherent in the pro-life lobby, that was demonstrated so completely by S_O_B_SlasherZ.
 

Akira

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According to all the Christian people, I must be f
Abortion can only be justified on a case-by-case basis. Some women of course get knocked up and just do not wish to have their baby for laziness or whatever ridiculous reason. These people of course should not be allowed the right.
Now then, there are a number of women that I would advise to do it. ****, being the popular one, but what about a women in poverty, un-able to raise the child? By having the baby she is not only ruining her life but the life of the baby's. These people (along with **** victims, and many other cases)should of course be given the right to have an abortion. Unforunately, we can't just give the right to some, so it must be allowed to all.
And as to it being killing, I might get into that later...not in the mood right now...
 

Kirbywithoutahome

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I see nothing wrong with a cardboard box....
um.... how many of you are women??? if you are not a woman you do not have the ability or the right to make any kind of decision (intelligent or most likely unintelligent)..... therefore it's much smarter to let someone who might have to deal with an abortion (hopefully only women, don't wanna think about the situation if it wasn't a woman) than to bumble about making uninformed decisions...... dunno... at least that's my view....
 

DukieMan1223

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Babies are alive at conception. Abortions do kill. Those mothers should consider adoption. So aborton is very wrong, it's against the bible. The unborn babies can feel the pain, I've seen booklets where it shows dead babies just piled up.
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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This has been tried before on Smashboards, and it definitely degenerated into religious discussion.

However, I'll try to keep from delving into the religious side of the debate.

Let me clear up the answer to this question 90% of prolifers will ask, thinking they're making an insightful remark.
"How would you feel if YOU were aborted?" or some variation.

The answer to this is simple. I wouldn't feel anything. I wouldn't be alive yet. Aborted babies aren't sentient, they cannot feel anything.

And while I'm at it, I'll clear up the other favorite prolife statement-
"What if that aborted baby would have grown up to be a genius who saves the world?"
This statement is even more ridiculous than the first. What if the aborted baby would have grown up to be a career criminal (far more likely)? But that's not even the main point of contention. The main thing is, if you're going to support this argument, than you must make the corrolary argument that girls should be kept perpetually impregnated, because every egg we let go unfertilized could turn out to be a genius who saves the world. The point of the matter is that early abortion and not getting pregnant are the same thing- As Massy put it, the denial of life from starting to begin with. Abortion is not the destruction of sentient life but rather the prevention of sentient life from occuring in the fist place. Which is morally equivalent to not getting a girl pregnant at every chance.

Please note, everoyne, I'm basing these arguments on scientific evidence about the nature of prenatal "life". These arguments are obviously void if you are a strict adherent to the Bible, and believe that an egg is infused with a human soul at conception. Though you might be surprised to know that if you beleive this, abortion and birth control pills are immorally equivalent. Are you also opposed to the pill?

If someone would like, I have some arguments for the religious aspect of things as well (from a Christian perspective, not an atheist perspective). But for now I'll save those for a later post, and let you guys dwell on these points.

Let me add that I agree with Kirbywithoutahome, somewhat. I have these abortion opinions, but they are governed by one underlying opinion. It is not the duty or right of a man to make decisions about abortion. We obviously don't have the capacity to have valid feelings on this issue, because it doesn't apply to us. So I think abortion policy should be dictated by women. And women tend to be prochoice, so that's the way it should be.

-B
 

Gamer4Fire

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I agree with Massy (For once) and with BBT.

You cannot claim that a nonsentient has any rights, even if it has the potential to be sentient. The fertilize all eggs arguements plus the fact that until sentients, it is merely a part of her body. In comparrison, my arm is alive. It takes blood from my blood stream, absorbs energy and uses it to do certain functions. If my hand were to become cancerous, I have every right to remove my hand hand from my body to keep from dying. I also have the right to do so if I merely don't like my arm. (There are people who get amputated because they don't feel they need an appendage)

And please don't give me any "The woman feels betrayed after getting the abortian." I have just as many cases where a women becomes suicidal after or felt good that she had one. That point is cultural. They way you were brought up will decide how you feel after the issue. (One of the reasons I'm against religion. But we won't discuss that, right?)
 

Ender_Wiggen

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"Either way, an abortion is ungodly. God didn't wish for people to kill their own flesh and blood"
-Yoshi-lord

Intresting comment here. I find it hard to believe that christians (Smashboards seeming religon of choice) believe that their god allowed the savior to die and yet when the option comes up to allow women to be able to choose to kill a non-sentant fetus they start yelling sinner.
 

tmw_redcell

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I agree with Nosirrah, abortion should be decided on a case by case basis, because there are too many variables to take into account to just make one big ruling. Adoption isn't exactly the best of processes. I don't think a baby is sentient. What if it would have become a genius and cure cancer? The odds are more likely that the person would try and kill everyone off but those whom they deemed fit and take over the world, becaue the ods are heavily in favour of that than somone curing cancer.

I think abortion should be an option for women. But the father should have some say in the matter (unless the woman was not willing to perform the sexual act) as he would also be legally responsible for the child unless the mother dictated otherwise and the father agreed.
 

yo

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mmm first of all, this is not religious debate so keep God and the bible out of this ok?
now, if I cut my hair and my nails or an entire hand or arm... im killing livin cells (ohhh noooooo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) ok they cant think and are part of my body so who cares...
now killing a fetus is a different thing, maybe he cant think but as soon as he develops some nerves (including brain that is one of the first things to form), he can feel just like if you kick a dog or cat or mouse (dont tell me that because mouse are stupid they dont feel) even violence to animals is illegal.
Then scientifics did a study about memory before birth and they concluded that unborn babies can remember things like the voice of her mother... so he kink of has life of his own even thoug he hasnt been born....
Killing the fetus like while is still a bunch of cells maybe that isnt that bad, but think that from the moment the fecundation is done then its no more part of the woman, it has life of its own just like a bacteria (only 1 cell and its considered a living being)
also if you dont want a baby, you use a condom (sp?)
and adoption is a good option too... I think thats all... later
 

McFox

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My only argument is this:

There is no penalty for aborting a baby.

If you shoot and kill a pregnant woman, you are charged with two counts of murder.

I think that's unfair. I mean, it should either be changed so that there is a penalty, or else you are only charged with count of murder.

If the unborn baby doesn't have any rights, it's not considered a citizen yet, then why should someone be charged for murder?

I realize it's the mother's decision because it's her body blah-blah-blah, I think they should change the law a bit. And I'm sure people think the law's fine like it is and will argue with me, but that's what I think.

*EDIT* Lol by the way, it' "fetus," not "foetus" or "faetus" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p

<small>[ March 09, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: McFox9 ]</small>
 

Massy

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Actually "fetus" is the American-English variant of "foetus" because US English doesn't seem to like dipthongs.

Not everyone speaks or spells like you do, I advise you remember that before correcting a grammar wench over a regional variation.

<small>[ March 09, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Massy ]</small>
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Yo makes somewhat of a point, if you can read his particular writing style...

Unfortunately, if I were to think as he does, I would also consider it immoral to ever harm another creature, because all animals can feel. Well, I don't think that. Besides, when you abort a fetus and you crush its skull, it's essentially dead instantly.

I draw the line at killing intelligent things, which fetuses are not.

BTW, McFox, I'm in complete agreement with you on the law. Charging it as a double murder is ridiculous, unless the woman is late in her term. However, since I don't care about murderers too much, this doesn't really bother me.

-B
 
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xray95

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I only think abortion should happen if the woman was ***** by a family member.

Any other case (Yes, even **** victims), the woman should have the baby.

There are thousands of couples who are well off, and can't have a baby for fertility reasons. They should get a chance to bring up a child, shouldn't they?

And for anyone who argues that it's a measure to keep the population down, that's ridiculous. Are we going to start shooting old people to keep the population down, too?

Ok, I know I'm not a female, and that might make my opinion less valid or whatever, but I really think abortion should be illegal. I think the woman who is pregnant should have enough responsibility and decency to give birth to the baby. She doesn't have to raise it, because of adoptions.

I think the real reason most women get abortions is because they're afraid that the child might find them in the future and ask tough questions. This, I feel, is a responsibility they have to take.
 

MJS

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:
<strong>I draw the line at killing intelligent things, which fetuses are not.

-B</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But fetuses become intelligent things over time. Animals do not. They stay unintelligent. So abortion is preventing the eventual development of intelligent life. Sure, at the time of the abortion the life is unintelligent, but in the long run abortion killed that intelligent being that normally would have walked this earth.

<img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh.gif" /> Meowth good point.

<small>[ March 09, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Mewtwo_Jedi_Saiyan ]</small>
 

XDaDePsak

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"I only think abortion should happen if the woman was ***** by a family member. Any other case (Yes, even **** victims), the woman should have the baby."

Why only with family members? Because it's incest, and can lead to diseases and disorders being passed on to the child? If a stranger ***** a woman, how do we know he doesnt have AIDS or another disease or disorder that can be passed down to the child? People have a right to check with a Genetisit to see the likelihood of problems occuring with a furture child.

"There are thousands of couples who are well off, and can't have a baby for fertility reasons. They should get a chance to bring up a child, shouldn't they?"

Survival of the fittest; we don't want infertitlity being passed on do we? And don't tell me it's a persons right to decide to have a baby, because that would contradict when you said a **** victim should have to have a baby anyways.

"And for anyone who argues that it's a measure to keep the population down, that's ridiculous. Are we going to start shooting old people to keep the population down, too?"

Actually killing people that are about to die anyways would be much less practical. I'm not saying it's a measure, but it's an added bonus... plus we don't have to waste ammunition <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

"Ok, I know I'm not a female, and that might make my opinion less valid or whatever"

Being an idiot also reduces the validity of your arguement. With those two aspects combined, I wouldn't bother giving your opinion the time of day.

"but I really think abortion should be illegal. I think the woman who is pregnant should have enough responsibility and decency to give birth to the baby."

Ahh...so it's all about responsiblility and decency... <img border="0" alt="[Bee's Smiley]" title="" src="graemlins/bee.gif" />

"She doesn't have to raise it, because of adoptions."

...There goes the responsibiliy and decency :rolleyes:

"I think the real reason most women get abortions is because they're afraid that the child might find them in the future and ask tough questions. This, I feel, is a responsibility they have to take."

The woman is busy getting an education, not financially stable enough, or simply doesn't want to walk around for 9 months all fat then have to go through childbirth. Other reaons include being ***** or being a **** . Adoption is very lame, poverty is no good, and a crooked family tree isn't responsible either. How would you like to tell your freinds your dad ***** your mother? Childbirth is something you have to time, and when the time is not right, you simply cannot be having a chid.

<small>[ March 09, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: XDaDePsak ]</small>
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Yes, fetuses, when provided with a stable womb environment, and nutrients to help it grow, can eventually become intelligent life. Just like a female egg, when fertilized with sperm and them provided with the same stuff can also become intelligent life.
The point is, it's not intelligent life yet. That sandwich you're eating could eventually get digested and some of the material from it could go into creating a cell that eventually becomes an egg cell which eventually gets fertilized which eventually grows into a baby. Should sandwiched be kept sacred? Ridiculous!

And for all you men talking about how "irresponsible" women are, I'm sure that's really easy for you to say, since you'll never have to deal with getting pregnant. You're opinion on that matter is entirely invalid.

-B
 

McFox

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mewtwo_Jedi_Saiyan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:
<strong>I draw the line at killing intelligent things, which fetuses are not.

-B</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But fetuses become intelligent things over time. Animals do not. They stay unintelligent. So abortion is preventing the eventual development of intelligent life. Sure, at the time of the abortion the life is unintelligent, but in the long run abortion killed that intelligent being that normally would have walked this earth.

<img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh.gif" /> Meowth good point.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you back out your viewpoint yet, some people could say cutting down rainforests should be outlawed too.

Let's say in another couple million years, humans die out, AKA dinosaurs. It is possible that another intelligent life could replace us.But let's say that due to logging, we made the would-be intelligent species extinct. In theory, that's the same concept as killing something that would become intelligent. <img border="0" alt="[Oh Well]" title="" src="graemlins/ohwell.gif" />
 

Gamer4Fire

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I'm generally against the cruel treatment of animals. Although I'm 100% against the PETA.

Abortian can be seen as a form of passive eugenics. The unwanted are destroyed before youth. (I'm actually all for dangerous toys for all ages. Survival of the fittest should start at childbirth.) The fact that, although smart people have a better chance of survival, stupid people breed faster than smart people. Okay, if one child has a survival rate of 90% and is smart and another has a survival rate of 20%, it skews the results when there are only ten 90% kids but ten thousand 20% kids. (This should scare people.)

And although you say that a child should be given the right of any other living sentient, a fetus cannot live outside the womb (well, not for long). If teh child is unwanted, it is a parasite. Feeding off the mothers resources (including money) and taking what it needs for its life, regardless of the mother. If the child is wanted, she is freely giving these resources. Something to think of.

And back to the issue of women. How would you like it if something was growing in you that would cause your belly to grow large, your ankles to swell making it hard to walk, work, etc, cause you to throw up every morning, feel terrible, etc. Then, after nine months, go through terrible pains as it rips out of your body. If you wanted to be a mother, no problem, you know what your getting yourself into and your kinda looking forward to it. Now imagine your a sixteen year old girl (*****, incest, boyfriend whatever). Do you really want to go through that? Do you have the resources, financially, mentally, and physically? Are you going to get support from friends or family? Just another thing to think about.
 
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xray95

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"Why only with family members? Because it's incest, and can lead to diseases and disorders being passed on to the child? If a stranger ***** a woman, how do we know he doesnt have AIDS or another disease or disorder that can be passed down to the child? People have a right to check with a Genetisit to see the likelihood of problems occuring with a furture child."

-The child doesn't have to get AIDS, first of all. Secondly, a child born out of incest is going to be ****ed up anyway, the gene pool doesn't need that.

"Survival of the fittest; we don't want infertitlity being passed on do we? And don't tell me it's a persons right to decide to have a baby, because that would contradict when you said a **** victim should have to have a baby anyways."

-Infertility isn't only genetic, buddy. What about people who have been in accidents?

"Actually killing people that are about to die anyways would be much less practical. I'm not saying it's a measure, but it's an added bonus... plus we don't have to waste ammunition."

-I really hope you weren't implying that abortion is better because it doesn't waste bullets.

"Being an idiot also reduces the validity of your arguement. With those two aspects combined, I wouldn't bother giving your opinion the time of day."

-Did you run out of good points now? Oh wait, you never had any to begin with. Well, you can always just flame me. Then others will really think you're smart. As for giving my opinion the time of day, I think your long post invalidates that statement.

"Ahh...so it's all about responsiblility and decency..."
"...There goes the responsibiliy and decency"

-I know you were just trying to be clever and all, but you really failed miserably. You see, there's a difference between killing a child and abandoning it.

"The woman is busy getting an education, not financially stable enough, or simply doesn't want to walk around for 9 months all fat then have to go through childbirth. Other reaons include being ***** or being a **** . Adoption is very lame, poverty is no good, and a crooked family tree isn't responsible either. How would you like to tell your freinds your dad ***** your mother? Childbirth is something you have to time, and when the time is not right, you simply cannot be having a chid."

-Yes, all women should take the easy way out. Why be responsible when they don't have to be? Let's let our nine months of discomfort get in the way of a whole human life. I really want you to walk up to someone whose father is a rapist and tell them that they don't deserve to live as much as you do because your father isn't (I'm assuming this fact, because of your views on the subject).
 

McFox

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Massy:
<strong>Actually "fetus" is the American-English variant of "foetus" because US English doesn't seem to like dipthongs.

Not everyone speaks or spells like you do, I advise you remember that before correcting a grammar wench over a regional variation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in this case I'm sorry. It's just that i've never seen it spelled any other way before, so I apologize.
 

XDaDePsak

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"The child doesn't have to get AIDS, first of all. Secondly, a child born out of incest is going to be ****ed up anyway, the gene pool doesn't need that."

No the child won't have a 100% chance of having AIDS or any other disorder, but neither does a child born of incest. But they still both have a chance of being affected, regardless, and therefore both cases should be treated equally.

"Infertility isn't only genetic, buddy. What about people who have been in accidents?"

Let them adopt a kid of the Christians Childrens Fund for 75 cents a day.

"I really hope you weren't implying that abortion is better because it doesn't waste bullets."

You have no sense of humor :cool:

-Did you run out of good points now? Oh wait, you never had any to begin with. Well, you can always just flame me. Then others will really think you're smart. As for giving my opinion the time of day, I think your long post invalidates that statement.

How does my "long post" invalidate "that statement".

"I know you were just trying to be clever and all, but you really failed miserably. You see, there's a difference between killing a child and abandoning it."

Sheesh, you didn't even bother to explain what the difference was...not that you could.

"Yes, all women should take the easy way out."

"Why be responsible when they don't have to be?"

That's pretty much what they are doing by NOT ABORTING the child. Raising a child in a poor situation is very irresponsible.

"Let's let our nine months of discomfort get in the way of a whole human life."

A whole life discomfort. (let alone Poverty and the other said situations)

"I really want you to walk up to someone whose father is a rapist and tell them that they don't deserve to live as much as you do because your father isn't (I'm assuming this fact, because of your views on the subject)"

The woman should raise a child under the right conditions. Obviously once the child is born, he deserves to live, but when you can correct an error beforehand, you should make that attempt. Let's say a man and woman only want to have one child because they have their life planned out and whatnot. The woman is ***** and the kid is disfigured and causes all sorts of problems when it could have been aborted and they could have had the child on their own. Life is like a drug, once a druggie is hooked, he wont want to quit. Same with a child. The child doesnt know what life is like until it is born, so it isn't hooked yet, and therefore doesnt give a ****.
 

Gideon

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what do you mean no religious arguments?

Thats like me saying "lets talk about evolution, but you arent allowed to use Carbon Dating Arguements"

Maybe thats a little bit of a stretched anaology, but you get the point.
 

Bazooka Lucca

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I think it's wrong because it's murder. Think of it like this: A butterfly starts out as a larvae caterpillar thingy, then it become a butterfly later on. Well fetus is the larvae stage of humans, and to me, killing the larvae is killing the butterfly also.

Also think about it like this: If you are going to have sex for pleasure, spend 50 cents on a condom rather than $50 on abortion.
 

XDaDePsak

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Im sorry for diving a bit into religion, but:

"If you are going to have sex for pleasure, spend 50 cents on a condom rather than $50 on abortion"

Sex for pleasure is lust, condoms are the devil, and you must multiply are pretty much problem here for christians.
 

Massy

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Well, the morning after pill I guess.

But yeah, pro-contraception anti-abortion people usually people fail to take in to account that:

Condoms aren't perfect, accidents happen.
And a lot of men are tossers who won't wear one, and its the woman that has to pay the consequences.
 

Gamer4Fire

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What the bloody, bloody, bloody hail was that? Could you please rephrase that in proper english?

So what would you consider alive? The ability to survive outside the mother or the forming of enough grey matter to resemble sentients?
 
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