Abandoning Rosaluma :<

[asd_]

I don't see how Luma being able to attack when Rosalina is in hitstun is any more ridiculous than Little Mac being able to shrug it off entirely.

there's nothing more I hate than seeing people defend something that's so clearly broken lol please stop

 

[ChikoLad]

there's nothing more I hate than seeing people defend something that's so clearly broken lol please stop

There's also nothing more hilarious than people overreacting about a mechanic, being unwilling to develop counters for it, and has a lot of comparable mechanics from other characters that are overlooked, yet this one particular one is still "obviously broken".

 

[asd_]

There's also nothing more hilarious than people overreacting about a mechanic, being unwilling to develop counters for it, and has a lot of comparable mechanics from other characters that are overlooked, yet this one particular one is still "obviously broken".

man, yoshi must have always been top tier in every other smash game cause he has super armor during his double jump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so op!!!!!!!!!!!





super armor is nothing new, littlemac will never be top tier. littlemac needs to be clearly powerful on the ground beacause his aerials do next to nothing and in smash 4 when everyone has insanely op recoveries and can live 150%+ on average except littlemac who is easily gimpable and killable below 100

there is no downside to being able to attack while you're still in hitstun, i don't understand how that's counterable? don't go near luma when you are following up on combos on rosa? how is that even remotely fair? and don't bring up ICs because luma and rosa are meant to be separated much of the time when the ICs are never meant to be

not only does luma spawn in 8 seconds (lol), but she's still better than many characters WITHOUT LUMA. how is that fair? was sopo better a significant portion of the melee/brawl cast?

just stop while you can please

 

[Shiliski]

Don't have an opinion other than mine, and if you do then you better not express it.

FTFY

 

[Reila]

Kind of late for responding to this thread, but I will do it anyways:

I had this same mentality that playing mid/low tier characters is honorable etc, but after hundreds of online matches, I am starting to wish my favorite characters were top tier (Pikachu and Diddy are, but I don't want to play them in SSB4, at least not yet), so I wouldn't get bodied when I am playing considerably well. At the end of the day, no one will pat on your shoulder and congratulate you because you are winning matches with a low or mid tier, so why bother? So I think everyone should play whoever they want and let others ***** as much as they want (and that is coming from someone who is often ******** about Lucario's bull**** mechanics). Don't let others ruin your fun

 

[ChikoLad]

man, yoshi must have always been top tier in every other smash game cause he has super armor during his double jump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so op!!!!!!!!!!!





super armor is nothing new, littlemac will never be top tier. littlemac needs to be clearly powerful on the ground beacause his aerials do next to nothing and in smash 4 when everyone has insanely op recoveries and can live 150%+ on average except littlemac who is easily gimpable and killable below 100

there is no downside to being able to attack while you're still in hitstun, i don't understand how that's counterable? don't go near luma when you are following up on combos on rosa? how is that even remotely fair? and don't bring up ICs because luma and rosa are meant to be separated much of the time when the ICs are never meant to be

not only does luma spawn in 8 seconds (lol), but she's still better than many characters WITHOUT LUMA. how is that fair? was sopo better a significant portion of the melee/brawl cast?

just stop while you can please

Way to miss the point of my post. Quote me on where I said Little Mac was completely broken. You'll be on a wild goose chase.

To elaborate:

The things you guys are complaining about with Luma are literally just Luma mitigating some of SoRo's weaknesses. Little Mac, on the other hand, has mechanics that bring him from strength to strength to strength.

For example, Rosalina is easy to hit (in theory) because she's big. So Luma is able to either take hits for her, or hit opponents away from her when they have her locked in a jab combo, grab, etc.

This is a case of "Weakness to Strength".

Little Mac, however, is not easy to hit. He is small, crouches when running (thus reducing his hurtbox), and Side B gives him invincibility frames on the ground. He is also really fast (while Rosalina's running speed is only slightly above average). Oh, and he has a counter. He has literally no excuse to get hit, especially from slow, hard hitting attacks.

Yet, despite that, he has Super Armour that allows him to shrug off pretty much any attack, which THEN allows him to get a huge bonus to his Power Meter due to it being built up through both taking AND dealing damage, which THEN grants him access to a shield ignoring OHKO move. So he has the tools to EASILY avoid being hit, yet still has mechanics that reward him for being hit anyway.

This is a case of "Strength to Strength to Strength to Strength".

Your logic behind Rosalina being broken is very flawed, but if you choose to believe it isn't, then by logic, you should believe it applies tenfold to Little Mac.

 

[Steam]

So? That's still a lot more useful than being able to attack with a little tiny fella when Rosalina has already been sent flying. Little mac can prevent himself from being sent flying in the first place.

sure it's useful but little mac pays so much for it. sure rosa doesn't get free smashes off of those kinds of hits but it does keep her opponent from following up. I think little mac would love to have a helper that prevents followups on him, you'd never gimp him then

 

[ChikoLad]

sure it's useful but little mac pays so much for it. sure rosa doesn't get free smashes off of those kinds of hits but it does keep her opponent from following up.

Little Mac pays jack for his super armour, it's why so many people use him, to abuse him.

 

[Steam]

Little Mac pays jack for his super armour, it's why so many people use him, to abuse him.

except the part where he has no air game and no recovery. his ground game is overpowered by design. If Rosalina was supposed to be overpowered by design in that way, I fail to see where she pays for it.

 

[Shiliski]

except the part where he has no air game and no recovery. his ground game is overpowered by design. If Rosalina was supposed to be overpowered by design in that way, I fail to see where she pays for it.

Little Mac's lack of air game (aside from his Up B and his Counter) doesn't matter much because no one can get him into the air without first beating him on the ground game. Assuming the player doesn't do anything dumb, you have to get past his strength in order to expose his weakness.

 

[asd_]

Way to miss the point of my post. Quote me on where I said Little Mac was completely broken. You'll be on a wild goose chase.

To elaborate:

The things you guys are complaining about with Luma are literally just Luma mitigating some of SoRo's weaknesses. Little Mac, on the other hand, has mechanics that bring him from strength to strength to strength.

For example, Rosalina is easy to hit (in theory) because she's big. So Luma is able to either take hits for her, or hit opponents away from her when they have her locked in a jab combo, grab, etc.

This is a case of "Weakness to Strength".

Little Mac, however, is not easy to hit. He is small, crouches when running (thus reducing his hurtbox), and Side B gives him invincibility frames on the ground. He is also really fast (while Rosalina's running speed is only slightly above average). Oh, and he has a counter. He has literally no excuse to get hit, especially from slow, hard hitting attacks.

Yet, despite that, he has Super Armour that allows him to shrug off pretty much any attack, which THEN allows him to get a huge bonus to his Power Meter due to it being built up through both taking AND dealing damage, which THEN grants him access to a shield ignoring OHKO move. So he has the tools to EASILY avoid being hit, yet still has mechanics that reward him for being hit anyway.

This is a case of "Strength to Strength to Strength to Strength".

Your logic behind Rosalina being broken is very flawed, but if you choose to believe it isn't, then by logic, you should believe it applies tenfold to Little Mac.

lol


i have come to the conclusion you are a blind keyboard warrior, good day sir

 

[Steam]

Little Mac's lack of air game (aside from his Up B and his Counter) doesn't matter much because no one can get him into the air without first beating him on the ground game. Assuming the player doesn't do anything dumb, you have to get past his strength in order to expose his weakness.

It's still a high reward that exists if you get past the strength. the point is there's a weakness put in to counter strong mechanics he has. My point was completely sidetracked though. I think mac's super armor and luma mechanics are apples and oranges

 

[ooglefart]

If you're playing other opponents who are good at the game or know the rosalina matchup better, she's a lot less overpowered. She's still my fave though.

 

[Shiliski]

It's still a high reward that exists if you get past the strength. the point is there's a weakness put in to counter strong mechanics he has. My point was completely sidetracked though. I think mac's super armor and luma mechanics are apples and oranges

I kindof agree to an extent about the apples and oranges thing, with the caveat that every character has their own unqiue advantages and comparing any of them (aside from the clones) can be said to be a case of "apples and oranges".

Super armor isn't new, no, but that only means that there's been plenty of time for people to find ways around it. RosaLuma's thing is new, and while some people might compare it to Ice Climbers it's really not the same. In fact, it's the exact opposite: If you go after Luma then you're wasting your time, though even that isn't completely accurate as there are ways to gimp Luma.

 

[ChikoLad]

The only time taking out Luma should be a specific focus is when playing a Rosalina ditto, since you are clearly at an advantage if your opponent has lost their Luma.

Also, the game starts you both off with Yellow Lumas, so.....

 

[Shiliski]

The only time taking out Luma should be a specific focus is when playing a Rosalina ditto, since you are clearly at an advantage if your opponent has lost their Luma.

Also, the game starts you both off with Yellow Lumas, so.....

Even then killing the Luma is a waste unless you can quickly gimp it.

 

[Steam]

I'd strongly disagree, In lucario's case even with aura he pretty much can't touch rosalina until luma is off her. The flow of my tourney matches has generally gone like this: Get bodied til 100% dealing almost no damage -> luma dies to something -> get rosa to 50% off of 3 hits -> rosa gets baired or smashed and dies. when rosa has luma on her against lucario she can safely apply ridiculous pressure that he can't beat out in terms of speed or range, It's pretty crazy.

 

[Percentful]

I think people tend to forget how easily Luma can be dealt with. There are so many attacks that can instantly send it into a tumble off stage. It's just a matter of knowing the matchup very very well, which most people aren't taking the time to do. Playing Rosalina isn't a free ticket to winning, but it does give you the options to win IF you play well.

 

[Shiliski]

I'd strongly disagree, In lucario's case even with aura he pretty much can't touch rosalina until luma is off her. The flow of my tourney matches has generally gone like this: Get bodied til 100% dealing almost no damage -> luma dies to something -> get rosa to 50% off of 3 hits -> rosa gets baired or smashed and dies. when rosa has luma on her against lucario she can safely apply ridiculous pressure that he can't beat out in terms of speed or range, It's pretty crazy.

I'm gonna assume from your description that you are either having trouble getting into a position to gimp Luma or you just haven't figured out how to do it yet. I don't know how to help you if it's the former, but assuming the latter I can give a few tips.

-If Rosalina is in a tumble, Luma can't move. He wont attack and he wont follow Rosalina until she recovers from her tumble. This is crucial to understanding the process of most of these gimps.

-Yes Luma can attack while Rosalina is flinching but not while she's tumbling. In fact tumbling is probably Rosalina's weakest position to be in.

-If Luma is tumbling off the side of the stage, he'll die and Rosalina can't do anything about it. At least, if she can, I haven't found a method to get Luma out of his tumble (other than Luma simply landing on the stage, of course)

-Quickest way to get rid of Luma is generally a smash attack while Rosalina is too close to an edge, and it works at 0%. Lucario's F-smash can do it uncharged, if Luma is close enough to the edge. Lucario's D-smash and U-smash don't seem to help much at low percents, but my tests at 50% show that D-smash knocks back Rosalina but not Luma, allowing you to knock back Luma with an f-smash, and U-smash can knock Luma up allowing you to follow up with a fair before Luma recovers. Be careful using the U-smash method though, as it seems to leave you very open to retaliation from Rosalina.

-How well has Lucario's Side B worked for you, in your experience? Testing it at 0% and 50%, it seems to only knockback Rosalina, separating her from Luma. This sends her into a tumble and you can follow up with a dash attack that will also gimp Luma if its near an edge. With Lucario at higher percents, even an ftilt can finish off Luma.

-Have you tried separating Luma from Rosalina with a down smash, or even just by smashing one and not the other? Again, Luma wont follow Rosalina if she's tumbling in the air, so you can launch her and, instead of trying to gimp Luma (perhaps because Luma's not close enough to the edge or something), just go after Rosalina and follow up with aerials.

-Some RosaLuma players will know about these gimps and might try to stay away from the edge. You might have to bait them or knock them there somehow, or punish them when they try to recover from the sides.

-Not all attacks that knock back Rosalina will knock back Luma. I suggest going into training mode and seeing which moves separate them and which ones don't.

-Gimping is better than Separating, which is better than Killing. All damage against Luma is wasted and the 8 second window isn't enough to justify it. Separating them will give you a window to attack Rosalina if you can get to her while she's still tumbling. Gimping is the best as it's 8 seconds of freedom for the low low cost of 1 or 2 attacks.

-In any case, while Rosalina's tumbling does give you a window to gimp Luma, it's a short one. If you can't gimp Luma right away with a single attack, I suggest going after Rosalina instead. Damage against Rosalina will always help you, but damage against Luma almost never will. (EDIT: It's possible in some situations to get 2 or more hits on Luma before Rosalina gets out of tumble, but I haven't been able to test any anti-Luma combos against competent opponents.)

YMMV on this and I suggest experimenting to see which ones work best.

 

[enderilluminatus]

Nah.

I've waited more than half a decade to see Rosalina in Smash, I'm not going to drop her just because people think she's 2stronk, even if they are right. She's one of my favourite characters, and I enjoy her play style so much.

Also, IMO top tier characters are as such not because they are rewarding unskillful play and are "dishonourable", but because they offer the player more room to expand their horizon than the mid tiers, they have a more limitless skill ceiling.

I guess you could say Rosalina's skill ceiling is cosmic...

This. She's one of my favorite Nintendo characters ever. **** the haters.

 

[Kiyosuki]

Nobody really likes feeling like they're being given a crutch so its a natural feeling. Even players using top tier characters in other fighting games in order to compete from time to time say their disdain for it.

It really boils down to whether you see them as crutches, or see them as being the best tools to get the job done. Of course there's also if you actually like the character or not and just got really lucky. lol

I guess whether you want to use her or not is really up to you, not everything is a top level competitive deal...and even then sometimes taking a passion project to the highest levels can be great too. (Although you must never forget that in some cases, some characters even when taken to their best just won't have what it takes but there's usually a very large "middle" pool of characters that could.) And while Rosa's pretty strong I've honestly seen far worse examples of actual op characters. I don't think she's all THAT ahead of everyone she's certainly not gonna be a repeat of Meta Knight.