Abadango Hates Melons

[Pacack]

In a recent stream on his twitch account (June 3rd, approximately 4:10 PM JST), Abadango mentioned that he hates Melons (he slowed down and heavily emphasized the word hate). He does not use them because they are "too slow".

As a Western Pac-Man player, this surprised me, since I see so many of us here use it. We throw it in the air and use trampoline or throw opponents into it to tack on an extra percent, throw it in combination with hydrant and trampoline to create a wall of traps, or z-drop it as a weaker and easier-to-obtain version of the key. Do you think we might be using it too much, or do you that Abadango might not be using it creatively enough? Maybe something else entirely is going on? I don't know?

Thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Mochamico]

Partially.
In my opinion, Melon isn't too particularly useful because even though it's so slow, it still isn't as hard-hitting as, say, the Key. I personally think it should give as much damage as the key or deal more knockback to compensate for being so slow. That being said, it's not terrible, since it can be used to

All of PAC-MAN's fruits can be extremely useful, but there are better fruit than Melon. This is just my opinion, though, I'm not very experienced with PAC-MAN, so I may just not be utilizing it.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Melon's attributes makes it a very peculiar fruit, really. Melon isn't really easy to use due it's slow speed, which is why, to be frank, it's best left as a mix-up trap projectile.

While Key obviously deals more damage and knockback, it's very predictable to see coming (especially if from far, mostly it's better to be closer to an opponent but they'll usually assume defensive position if so). Melon also deals most damage after Key, which is quite important to know.

Melon works best for mix-up trapping or other situational uses due your opponent having to avoid it for a moment on top of you getting a possible free approach or even use it as a wall to limit recovery/edge-guarding or specific spaces to approach off. When combined with Z-Drops to ease Hydrant Launching and throwing upwards or other ways for traps, it can be a monstrous KO:ing tool that definitely will catch a lot opponents off-guard and separate good Pac-mains form average ones.

However, it's to be seen will the Melon set-ups become outweighed by their complexity and difficulty over their usefulness or accuracy to be landed. If they aren't worth it, Melon might become less used or even not much recommended to pick up for Pac-mains. However, I think it's not likely to happen, contrary actually.

EDIT: Reading below uses of Melon tells me that it might actually still be very useful and idea for it to be mastered in it's mixup area.

 

[Phampy]

I rarely use Melon myself as I also find them too slow to be handy in most situations. Anytime I'm tossing a melon or using it for Z drops and various other traps is because it got knocked out of my hands while charging or I was forced into a position where I couldn't charge fruit anymore. I think the only time where I'll willingly go to it as an option is to pierce projectiles like Charizard and Bowser's neutral B.

 

[Nu~]

Melon...bad? In what realm is the melon bad?

It's definitely one of our best projectiles imo. It's not a straightforward projectile, which makes it great for some unorthodox things.

The lack of speed allows you to set up some crazy traps.

-Throwing a melon in front of the ledge will stop any opponent from being able to snap to the ledge
-A thrown melon can be ran in front of while you approach, preventing the opponent from being able to punish your approach option
-Trampoline traps.
-By throwing a melon up, you can prevent all aerial approaches

I don't understand why abadango dismisses fruit because they are "too slow" the lack of speed opens different possibilities. How is that not exciting?

He did this when asked about lazy fruit as well.

 

[ToxoT]

i personally only use the melon for z drop pressure or edge guarding. the melon is not a fruit to approach with, it should be used to counter other projectiles and regrab to setup for combos. depending on how the match goes what ill do is throw a melon at a dropped hydrant and regrab it with fair so the hydrant tumbles toward my enemy, letting me have a hefty projectile to z drop and cover ground with. that being said just throwing the melon at your opponent pretty much guarantees that theyll grab it from the air or out of shield and pressure you with z drops or whatever combos they could come up with. it does let us spam hydrants easier to be sure, but we're left unable to go for the more powerful fruits like galaxian and key and forced to do something with the melon in hand.

the melon is an amazing edge guarding tool however. it lingers wherever its thrown and can stop low priority recoveries by either bouncing off the stage or being thrown downward from the ledge. its not as fast as a hydrant drop but still has a lot of potential so long as it cant be regrabbed.

 

[Nu~]

i personally only use the melon for z drop pressure or edge guarding. the melon is not a fruit to approach with, it should be used to counter other projectiles and regrab to setup for combos. depending on how the match goes what ill do is throw a melon at a dropped hydrant and regrab it with fair so the hydrant tumbles toward my enemy, letting me have a hefty projectile to z drop and cover ground with. that being said just throwing the melon at your opponent pretty much guarantees that theyll grab it from the air or out of shield and pressure you with z drops or whatever combos they could come up with. it does let us spam hydrants easier to be sure, but we're left unable to go for the more powerful fruits like galaxian and key and forced to do something with the melon in hand.

the melon is an amazing edge guarding tool however. it lingers wherever its thrown and can stop low priority recoveries by either bouncing off the stage or being thrown downward from the ledge. its not as fast as a hydrant drop but still has a lot of potential so long as it cant be regrabbed.

I don't see why you can't approach with it: if you get it in the hand and throw it, you can run in front of it. If you have a moving hitbox behind you, the one option your opponent has to avoid getting hit or grabbed is to jump.

 

[Maziyah]

Whattttt? You can use it to approach, ko , and edgeguard. PLUS you can ignore the fact it walls out so many projectiles, being quite useful with the MM mu. PLUS its great for reading rolls as are strawberries but they pack more of a punch.

 

[JohanVonBronx]

While definitely not the best fruit we have it's still useful. Personally I think to be a good pacman you need to know how to utilize all your fruits and when. Like when off stage if I'm high enough I will throw a straw berry and snipe the opponent if they're edge-guarding. It's not strong, but it has just the right curve and distance to be able to do that.

Point is, no reason to hate the melon. I don't particularly use it a lot, but I still do. Some things I use it for are:

Edge guarding (if you regrab it and get your opponent off stage you can throw it up while on the edge to keep them at bay for a sec with that sexy almost static hitbox)
Preventing someone from coming at me with aerials
a quick mix up, especially if i'm dealing with a rusher like some little macs
z dropping

there are more but what i'm trying to say is, no reason to hate it. for me personally it's definitely towards the lower part of my list of fruit priorities but it still has a place.

 

[Maziyah]

Its a great bait item as well, it goes so slow, so cape happy and reflector happy people can be baited to use it and whiff then we punish, or regrab the melon easy.

 

[Froggy]

I like the melon a lot. You don't throw it and hope your opponent forgets to block. You run behind it and do your mixup.

One thing I've found very effective is having it hit your opponent's shield, dair their shield and then throwin it back at them(after the dair you can stay in front of them or cross them up) tends to catch a lot of people off guard who are thinking it's time to punish you now.

 

[Maziyah]

I like the melon a lot. You don't throw it and hope your opponent forgets to block. You run behind it and do your mixup.

One thing I've found very effective is having it hit your opponent's shield, dair their shield and then throwin it back at them(after the dair you can stay in front of them or cross them up) tends to catch a lot of people off guard who are thinking it's time to punish you now.

That sounds amazing for shield pressure, out of all the fruits ive noticed people are more inclined to jump over the melon after you punish their shield, leading to easy reads.

 

[Froggy]

That sounds amazing for shield pressure, out of all the fruits ive noticed people are more inclined to jump over the melon after you punish their shield, leading to easy reads.

Yeah, and I forgot to mention in my post that as you dair their shield you should simultanously catch your melon back.

 

[Maziyah]

Im almost certain if you z drop the melon after the dair or throw it down then throw down a hydrant we'll be able to really destroy shields!

 

[NouveauRétro]

Melon is best used in the hand after being caught from an opponent's shield or thrown away from the opponent and chased down. Melon is definitely the second most dangerous fruit to have in hand.
I rank the holding usability of the fruits as follows
1.Key
2.Melon
3.Galaxian
4.Bell
5.Apple
and Strawberry, w/e

My theory on why he hates melon: Japanese players are too on point catching projectiles. All those Toon Links have trained them so they can snatch his melon 90% of the time, and then they keep it away from him. Imagine how obnoxious it would be to fight Brood's DHD's specials without Bonus Fruit! :O

 

[Maziyah]

I usually catch my melon off of my hydrant.

 

[Firedemon0]

I find orange and apple much more potent and effective then Melon personally. I also take a liking to killing offstage with orange. Default apple and orange are the strongest fruits because of how quickly you can charge to either of them. For Freaky, I would lean toward melon being very strong, but strawberry is very much the most useful. For Lazy, Melon is great, but apple is stronger use wise because of its arc. Galaxian is just a smidge longer to charge for and applies real pressure if not caught.

Melon's strength is in its mixup potential. I can condition air dodges with orange, then punish those same air dodges with a well thrown melon instead. Or throwing it with water blasts to speed it up and force unfavorable positions for my opponent.

I can see why he would never use it because of its ability to be grabbed, but I think he doesn't know how much you gain now that people are unable to tilt when holding fruit. I know the projectile more then they do and its limits, and can exploit that. If they want to play the keep away game, they can either zdrop behind them and try to wall out Pac-man, or use specials. DHD is likely the only one able to effectively do this. Even then, in close range, it is dangerous for DHD to be spamming specials.

Key is a liability now as well, as the meta has been progressing people know about, it immediately forces more players on the defensive and better able to react. It also makes Pac stuck with it, you lose all mix-up potential for a kill move. A kill move that Apple is much more effective at on lower ceiling stages. Its strength comes in Zdropping now more then ever, but you either need to damage yourself with onfire, or risk gimps offstage to get it.

My fruit choices are narrowing. For default, I only really charge far enough for bell which is a more effective kill move, even if it needs another move to do the killing. I tend to not go past apple very often unless they are susceptible to melon mixups.

 

[Nu~]

Remember that a fruit thrown from the hand can't be caught by the opponent

 

[Froggy]

Remember that a fruit thrown from the hand can't be caught by the opponent

:O I had no idea

 

[Tornado]

I use the melon rarely. My strategy with the melon use is for edge guarding sometimes but it has to be later in the match. Once the opponent is accustomed to air dodging normal speed fruit throws, they'll (possibly) dodge the melon too early and thus get hit by it when the dodge finishes.

That being said, I don't charge up fruits and say to myself "ok let's get that melon!"

 

[abit_rusty]

I can't say I agree with him, but I do rarely use it over the apple. We know it's slow >_>

 

[BSP]

My theory on why he hates melon: Japanese players are too on point catching projectiles. All those Toon Links have trained them so they can snatch his melon 90% of the time, and then they keep it away from him. Imagine how obnoxious it would be to fight Brood's DHD's specials without Bonus Fruit! :O

This is probably accurate. Japanese players tend to have all fundamentals down 100%, including catching things out of the air.

Now for Melon, I do what others have said: I'll go to it based on the situation, but that situation is seldom. It's great for plowing through things and is best used in advantage, approaching with it, or as an edgeguard. It's too slow otherwise.

My fruit frequency depends on the MU, but in general I try to use all of them to make my game a bit less predictable. Some MUs demand me use some more than others of course. For Rosalina, I use Keys near exclusively. For other characters with notable projectile games, Apple and Strawberry see more use than normal.

Key is a liability now as well, as the meta has been progressing people know about, it immediately forces more players on the defensive and better able to react. It also makes Pac stuck with it, you lose all mix-up potential for a kill move. A kill move that Apple is much more effective at on lower ceiling stages. Its strength comes in Zdropping now more then ever, but you either need to damage yourself with onfire, or risk gimps offstage to get it.

Yeah, people are getting smart. Once you have Key, they know it's coming.

That being said, they can't shield forever. We can also get better at nailing people out of their jumps and when they drop shield. Key is still a great punish tool as well, something that demands respect.

 

[abit_rusty]

I mean relying on key to be a surprise wasn't going to last forever. Pacman initially had the leisure of people still learning the trajectory of his projectiles, but once the majority have learned them, how is that any different from knowing a charge shot/shadow ball/donkey punch is prepped?

 

[Froggy]

Yeah, people are getting smart. Once you have Key, they know it's coming.

That being said, they can't shield forever. We can also get better at nailing people out of their jumps and when they drop shield. Key is still a great punish tool as well, something that demands respect.

Dude jumping and key throwing is so strong right now. It's something we all need to master.

 

[BSP]

I mean relying on key to be a surprise wasn't going to last forever. Pacman initially had the leisure of people still learning the trajectory of his projectiles, but once the majority have learned them, how is that any different from knowing a charge shot/shadow ball/donkey punch is prepped?

I know what you're saying, but at least we've got BF's wide variety on our side. The specials you mentioned don't change much depending on charge level, whereas our change drastically. If you forget where Pac-Man is on the cycle, it can be costly. We're all biased because we use Pac-Man a lot more than most people, but I'm sure keeping track of what he's got mid match when you aren't used to the sound cues is difficult.

When people do become better about it, then it's up to us to become smarter. They'll expect it, but we can do things about them expecting it. For example, I'm sure no one outside of Pac-Mains will consistently know how each fruit reacts to being gushed, our delayed setups with hydrant water, etc. All of this isn't hard to figure out, but this is a big game with Pac-Man being a pretty obscure character.

Dude jumping and key throwing is so strong right now. It's something we all need to master.

It's even better considering we can force aerial approaches.

 

[SafCar]

Yeah, even as a secondary for PAC-MAN, I can definitely say that the fruit can mess players up if they aren't careful. I went up against a PAC-MAN main on Sunday and I was doing fine until I forgot that he had the Apple and killed me off the top with it. I still need to practice Hydrant tactics with PAC, might make me feel better about moving him to Main status.

 

[abit_rusty]

When people do become better about it, then it's up to us to become smarter.

I completely agree, and that is what I was implying. People who main those characters find ways to land their charged moves regardless of people expecting them. We can too.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Remember that a fruit thrown from the hand can't be caught by the opponent

Now that's just untrue. I don't even need to test that, I killed a Pacman player two days ago by catching his own melon out of the air with airdodge and dropping it on him and his hydrant, causing him to get hit by both. I was at the time, we were on 75m Omega, I remember it very clearly. Why would you say such a thing?

 

[Pacack]

Now that's just untrue. I don't even need to test that, I killed a Pacman player two days ago by catching his own melon out of the air with airdodge and dropping it on him and his hydrant, causing him to get hit by both. I was at the time, we were on 75m Omega, I remember it very clearly. Why would you say such a thing?

Thrown from the hand. Not from a charge.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Thrown from the hand. Not from a charge.

Oh, OK, that terminology confused me. Yep. Sorry

 

[Pacack]

Oh, OK, that terminology confused me. Yep.

Understandable. If a fruit has been picked up once and then thrown, it cannot be picked up again.

 

[Nu~]

Lol
Thanks man @ Pacack
Sorry for not being specific.
Not my strongest attribute

 

[fromundaman]

I won't say the melon is *bad* per se, but it is incredibly situational because a B-thrown melon is in fact kind of bad unless you do that weird thing where you throw it at the end of being pushed by hydrant water to speed it up.

Now that said, I do think melon is one of the best fruits to have in your hand as it's DICIT toss, Z-drop utilities, up throw and down throws are all amazing (Well, down thrown slightly less). The only issue with this? You have to actually regrab it first, and unless there's easy access to a slope, that's not super convenient.


Oh, also it's a pretty good fruit to use on Delfino since it bounces off of walls.

EDIT:

Also I personally use key kind of like Charge Shot: Use it as a nasty punisher, to keep the fear of key in my opponent and occasionally just using it randomly on a hard read just because I can.

Oh, that said, if you do want to keep the key surprising, cancel your charge at the same moment that it reaches key so that the key never actually visually appears on screen but you have it charged.

 

[Zekkaran]

there are some uses for melon. i usually use melons to bait, shields, airdodges (especially offstage), rolls, or spotdodges. how i catch my melons (other than on hit, shield, projectile, hydrant, or offstage) is to do a dash attack near the ledge then b reverse the melon. the melon stops and lands on the floor just far enough for you to jump back on the stage and grab it.

EDIT: also forgot to mention that you can be evil a use it as a ledge guard trap by throwing the grabbed melon downwards and place a trampoline near the ledge for characters that are forced the jump the trampoline and even if they try to stay or let go of the ledge you can drop a hydrant on them giving them less time to think. i guess its kinda the same with using an apple but i kinda find the melon easier to acquire than the apple.

also was thinking that using that way to grab melons the b reverse off the ledge thing didn't sound like much of good idea, since it isn't that fast as getting it by hitting it with a hydrant or throwing it offstage for it to ricochet back to you and the opponent would have a chance at getting it first. i guess its just there as an another option.

 

[SPoitter]

kind of hard to justify a projectile that's literally just going slow in a straight line, what type of mixups can you do with this besides it being so slow that they'd probably let their shield down for a sec & try to jump, but instead get pelted. the melon isn't very good i agree with Abadango

 

[JohanVonBronx]

kind of hard to justify a projectile that's literally just going slow in a straight line, what type of mixups can you do with this besides it being so slow that they'd probably let their shield down for a sec & try to jump, but instead get pelted. the melon isn't very good i agree with Abadango

I'm honestly not even going to bother explaining it to you. Especially when several people have already explained how they personally use it. So after all that, for you to say that it isn't very good means a couple things:

1. You don't have an imagination
2. You seem to forget it's capabilities after doing a re-grab
3. You ain't a Pac-Main. SUCKA.

 

[SPoitter]

I'm honestly not even going to bother explaining it to you. Especially when several people have already explained how they personally use it. So after all that, for you to say that it isn't very good means a couple things:

1. You don't have an imagination
2. You seem to forget it's capabilities after doing a re-grab
3. You ain't a Pac-Main. SUCKA.

1. I do have an imagination, you just don't know what it is.
2. It doesn't even have decent capabilities, after z dropping or re grabbing it it's basically the same as the apple or galaxian except a little stronger. keyword: little
3. You aren't one either.

 

[JohanVonBronx]

1. I do have an imagination, you just don't know what it is.
2. It doesn't even have decent capabilities, after z dropping or re grabbing it it's basically the same as the apple or galaxian except a little stronger. keyword: little
3. You aren't one either.

So what you just told me is that it's better to z drop with than apple and galaxian. Not to mention after re-grabbing you can up-throw it to put an almost static hitbox. Great for placing on edges or really anywhere. It has its place. There's no reason to hate on the melon, it has its place just like every other fruit. To write off any of Pac-Mans fruits/items is a huge mistake.

 

[SPoitter]

So what you just told me is that it's better to z drop with than apple and galaxian. Not to mention after re-grabbing you can up-throw it to put an almost static hitbox. Great for placing on edges or really anywhere. It has its place. There's no reason to hate on the melon, it has its place just like every other fruit. To write off any of Pac-Mans fruits/items is a huge mistake.

that doesn't mean I don't like it :T

 

[JohanVonBronx]

that doesn't mean I don't like it :T

So why agree with abadango? He said he hates the melon. The melon is just as good as the other fruits. But him and other people think it sucks just cause you can't use it the same ways you use the other fruit.

Forgot to mention, another great edge guard for it is to place your hydrant on the edge and then when the water is about to come out throw your melon so the water pushes it up. It's best to do with the melon because it's slow so it stays longer than the rest of the fruits. Forcing your opponent to have to compromise, especially if they're trying to recover high. I've gotten a couple KOs with it actually on lighter characters.