a way for items to be in competive brawl.

[Zenjamin]

EDIT:
dont post with out reading the first post.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hello.

to my knowledge, this has not been suggested this before.



what if there was an option to change how items spawn on the stage to make it fair?

my idea is to make it so no matter the circumstance each character has an equal chance to get an item and skill determines who gets the item first.



picture this above the middle of the stage a smash ball starts to appear. but it is transparent, like the ghost of an item. slowly the item starts to solidify, both players see it. vying for control of the top platform below the item... or perhaps keeping the other character combed near the edge, but not killing them as you dont want them to spawn by the item when i becomes usable.



it could take anywhere from 10-60 seconds for an item to solidify and drop to the ground. both players have equel chance to prepare for it and try to get to it first.



P.S.
i origionaly thinking of this idea to allow smash balls, and thus Zsamus into brawl.




what do you guys think...





and because i dont want to make a separate thread, there should also be an option to select stocks individually to aid crew battles and handicaps

 

[Kirby knight]

There was a rather "Large" thread about items in tourney play. Perhaps you should of used the Search feature?

-Knight

 

[Kentalish]

how about u dont consider a smash ball a item how about u just turn it on or off in the options menu.

for example...

Time Limit: 8:00
Stock: 5
Final Smash: On


just somthing like that

 

[Sariku]

It won't happen.

 

[red stone]

why are there so many scrubs on this board....

 

[Takeshi245]

This has already been beaten to death so many times. What people can do is have item tournaments. You can use the search function to find other topics like this.

 

[Team Giza]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=115126
Happy time. I hope items in brawl are good enough to be used in tournaments.

 

[RokkuManZer0]

The thing is it's not the quality of the items that made them get banned.

1st - The randomness. They drop wherever and there's no possible way to make it fair for both players. Geez, in a match one player could get 10 items while the second one gets none, how's that fair?

2nd - Barrels, Capsules and Crates explode. Another random thing that can turn the tide of a match.

So as long as these things stay the same I don't think items will be included in tourneys.

 

[Moon Monkey]

They won't becuase Americans have no balls, and blame people for being cheap with items. Are you going to blame God for gravity too for falling allowing you to die?

 

[Zenjamin]

based on the responces i seriously dont think anyone who posted actualy read my post.


i know items have been beaten to death. but for the most part its all about the items themselves. not about taking away the random way in which those items came into play

The thing is it's not the quality of the items that made them get banned.

1st - The randomness. They drop wherever and there's no possible way to make it fair for both players. Geez, in a match one player could get 10 items while the second one gets none, how's that fair?

2nd - Barrels, Capsules and Crates explode. Another random thing that can turn the tide of a match.

So as long as these things stay the same I don't think items will be included in tourneys.

ya. read my post.

 

[Sariku]

based on the responces i seriously dont think anyone who posted actualy read my post.


i know items have been beaten to death. but for the most part its all about the items themselves. not about taking away the random way in which those items came into play






ya. read my post.

Your post doesn't answer Number 2... plus I think thats ultimately stupid. Items make Smash Hectic, knowing when its happening or seeing it but not being able to use it is gay. Its like having a BombOmb there that isn't "solidified" meaning it cant just fall and kill you.

Gay.

 

[Zenjamin]

umm. yes it does. there wouldnt be barrels or crates you can turn the off. that should be fracken obvious.


if you have over 10 seconds to prepare for an item, there is only one item appearing on the stage at a time, and you still consider it "Hectic" then you suffer from anxiety attacks and should not be playing a game with flashy lights anyways.

and why would having a bomb that cant randomly kill you, but one you can prepare to combo your oponet into it be gay?

 

[Sariku]

It just seems really horrible to have that. If you want Item Tournaments, just host one. You get the pretty blue letters while your at it.

 

[Zenjamin]

no logic whatsoever

fail

 

[Ridley22]

In my opinoin this would kill the fun in any item match I've ever had.
YAY BOMB-OMBS on very high. Oh wait....10 sec. later... A bom-omb.... 10 more sec..... woohoo(sarcastic)

 

[Pyroloserkid]

The only reasons items aren't used in competitive play is because Crates, Barrels, and Capsules will explode occasionally.

If you want items in competitive play, the BETTER idea would be to not have them explode.

Obviously.

 

[Zenjamin]

In my opinoin this would kill the fun in any item match I've ever had.
YAY BOMB-OMBS on very high. Oh wait....10 sec. later... A bom-omb.... 10 more sec..... woohoo(sarcastic)

luckly you have something like the other player to keep you busy, seriously you should be worrying about how to best win the combo/kill the other guy. or keep samus from activating Zamus.




if your idea of fun is to wait around for an item to use on the other guy, then its not a completive match.

most of the damage will still be done the old fashioned way. this option would not change the overall goal or mentality of completive play. it would just add another variable to consider/use.

people with more skill are more likely to get the item, there is no random factor in who gets it.

 

[Adi]

*slams head into the keyboard over and over again*

 

[Zenjamin]

The only reasons items aren't used in competitive play is because Crates, Barrels, and Capsules will explode occasionally.

If you want items in competitive play, the BETTER idea would be to not have them explode.

Obviously.

no. because items can still spawn right next to one character.


both characters have one stock.
one has 173% the other 0%.
smash ball spawns next to 173%
173% wins.


this is unacceptable. 173 used no skill and won unfairly.

the idea is you have to fight for the item.

*slams head into the keyboard over and over again*

a useless post and a wast of space.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

no. because items can still spawn right next to one character.


both charcters have one stock.
one has 173% the other 0%.
smash ball spawns next to 173%
173% wins.


this is unacceptable. 173 used no skill and won unfairly.

the idea is you have to fight for the item.

...and you're saying the a Final Smash is an auto-kill?

Go away noob.

 

[SiD]

I actually think this sounds like a fun idea. Whether or not it would be used in tournaments aside, I would definitely use this feature for fun at least occasionally. Dueling over a smash ball seems awesome, and final smashes an awesome reward.

both charcters have one stock.
one has 173% the other 0%.
smash ball spawns next to 173%
173% wins.


this is unacceptable. 173 used no skill and won unfairly.

I wouldn't say this until we know more about how FS's work and how much damage they do.

 

[Zenjamin]

...and you're saying the a Final Smash is an auto-kill?

Go away noob.

/sigh

no. im saying it could lead to a kill that a noob could pull off on a prow. never did i say i thought i would alwys be an auto kill. it only has to give an unfair advantage that was underived for my point to be valid.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Bad example with Smash ball (as I pointed out before, the fact that you can only use the Final Smash once per match balances out the smash ball, so it inherently confers no advantage, just offers additional strategic options), but interesting idea, pre-setting items to be at one spot and appear at a set time would make it much less random.

That said, it lends itself to a certain sort of contest, and therefore would not be the norm no matter what.


I still stand by my solution of "no exploding containers" and "only items that do not inherently give either player an advantage but instead increase the amount of strategy involved".



Edit:

no. because items can still spawn right next to one character.


both characters have one stock.
one has 173% the other 0%.
smash ball spawns next to 173%
173% wins.


this is unacceptable. 173 used no skill and won unfairly.

the idea is you have to fight for the item.

Except now 173% does not have the ability to use the final smash again during the game. 173% must therefore make his smash count, and quite frankly, if 173% saved his Final Smash for the last stock, good for 173%, the differential in damage is probably because 0% used his final smash earlier and also succeeded, but either failed to make the Ko, or his opponent made up for it, both skill issues.

Recognize that in this situation, if 173% makes the ko, 173% is the superior player, for the reasons I stated earlier, the one-time use factor in the smash-ball, coupled with effective implementation requirements ultimately make it fair.



Good for 173%, holding back until usage of Final Smash would guarentee victory, and you can't tell me that in a reasonably long game, unless item spawn rate is ridiculously low, that the smash ball with not spawn close to both charecters at some point.

 

[SiD]

I still stand by my solution of "no exploding containers" and "only items that do not inherently give either player an advantage but instead increase the amount of strategy involved".

And that limits it to what, Mr. Saturn?

 

[Zenjamin]

Bad example with Smash ball (as I pointed out before, the fact that you can only use the Final Smash once per match balances out the smash ball, so it inherently confers no advantage, just offers additional strategic options), but interesting idea, pre-setting items to be at one spot and appear at a set time would make it much less random.

That said, it lends itself to a certain sort of contest, and therefore would not be the norm no matter what.


I still stand by my solution of "no exploding containers" and "only items that do not inherently give either player an advantage but instead increase the amount of strategy involved".

no. the smash ball still could lead a great advantage on one charcter over another baised on where it spawns. the only factor in who gets the smash ball should be skill. time/space makes it random and unfair.

as with any item.



"only items that do not inherently give either player an advantage but instead increase the amount of strategy involved"

no such item can exist. unless both characters have the exact same item, at the exact same time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And that limits it to what, Mr. Saturn?

No, Mr. Saturn gives a (slight) spawn advantage.

Think Proximity mine (if they take out throw damage and knockback), Banana peel (assuming there is not throw damage or knockback), and Smash ball (because it's a one-time use item, so, unless spawn rate is ridiculously low, both players will get it at some point, meaning that it comes down to who uses it best).

I explained Smash Ball, but Banana Peel and proximity mine become part of the stage, being the person who threw it doesn't matter, not getting knocked into it when it's set does, thus additional strategic depth.

no. the smash ball still could lead a great advantage on one charcter over another baised on where it spawns. the only factor in who gets the smash ball should be skill. time/space makes it random and unfair.

as with any item.

Again, ONE-TIME-USE.

Otherwise, I would agree, but since it's one-time-use (you only get one final Smash per game), both players WILL get it at some point, unless it's a ridicuously low item spawn rate, or one life versus one life, in which case, my stance drastically changes. When you're at 4-5 lives, both people will get it at some point, meaning it's not luck, BUT WHO USES IT BETTER.

"only items that do not inherently give either player an advantage but instead increase the amount of strategy involved"

no such item can exist. unless both characters have the exact same item, at the exact same time.

Banana peel, and Smash ball, as yet revealed, for the reasons detailed above.

 

[SiD]

It may not be luck about the Smash ball, but that doesn't mean it's fair either. And getting it first could very well be a huge advantage, giving them an edge to kill the other player before another one can spawn, even with four lives this is possible. So actually, I'd still say it would involve luck.


This guys idea, on the other hand, would make it about skill. Because it would be whoever can keep the other player away from the spawning item.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It may not be luck about the Smash ball, but that doesn't mean it's fair either. And getting it first could very well be a huge advantage, giving them an edge to kill the other player before another one can spawn, even with four lives this is possible. So actually, I'd still say it would involve luck.


This guys idea, on the other hand, would make it about skill. Because it would be whoever can keep the other player away from the spawning item.

Kill the opponent, 4 times, with one smash ball?

If there is any semblence of competition between the two players there is no way that it's gonna occur that fast, and if it ever, by some insane stretch of the imagination occurs, then, you know what you've figure out? You've set the item spawn rate too low.

The only matches that fast are completely one-sides, and skill differences (and to a degree, character tier differences) create that, not a single, artfully-used item.

 

[Zenjamin]

no. the smash ball do different things for different characters, and you can not calculate probability whithout knowing what should be used. and in a competive environment you would set it at low or very low to enshure that high end skill dominates the outcome...

your dealing in hypotheticals with items that you want altered for completive players; a minority competive play who would rather fight with items; a MUCH greater minority. it will not happen.

the ONLY way to allow items in completive play, is if the acquisition of said items is based on skill and a logical choice.

Kill the opponent, 4 times, with one smash ball?

NO!!

he meant kill him the rest of the times with pure skill. that should be obvious. i think your problem is you are viewing this as an item match, in which the focus is primarily using the items. stop thinking like that. the completive smash scene will never resemble that.

what you want can easily be gotten by turning the items you want on and turning off barrels. and crates. no reason to post about it because that minimal level of customization is likely already in there.


now is sid the only one who read and understood what im talking about?

 

[SiD]

Kill the opponent, 4 times, with one smash ball?

If there is any semblence of competition between the two players there is no way that it's gonna occur that fast, and if it ever, by some insane stretch of the imagination occurs, then, you know what you've figure out? You've set the item spawn rate too low.

The only matches that fast are completely one-sides, and skill differences (and to a degree, character tier differences) create that, not a single, artfully-used item.

Final Smashes are different for every character, ergo it very well may not be fair. Don't make assumptions.

 

[Wuss]

The only reasons items aren't used in competitive play is because Crates, Barrels, and Capsules will explode occasionally.

If you want items in competitive play, the BETTER idea would be to not have them explode.

Obviously.

that's really not correct at all. Obviously, the items are inherently cheap as well. Even if they didn't explode at all, items would still be banned in SSBM. They all give one player an unfair advantage that they probably do not deserve.

 

[SiD]

that's really not correct at all. Obviously, the items are inherently cheap as well. Even if they didn't explode at all, items would still be banned in SSBM. They all give one player an unfair advantage that they probably do not deserve.

Agreed. That's why this thread is a good idea, because whoever got the item would deserve it.

 

[Team Giza]

Items were rushed into Melee it seems. I think since the game was rushed they didn't have time to check for balance too much. Tournaments with all items on may not be fair in melee. But if Brawl doesn't have exploding boxes I think we should try them out in tournaments.

 

[adumbrodeus]

no. the smash ball do different things for different characters, and you can not calculate probability whithout knowing what should be used. and in a competive environment you would set it at low or very low to enshure that high end skill dominates the outcome...

Just like different charecters have different techniques, it's no different then reacting to fox's upsmash versus link's upsmash, only, much higher risk-reward ratio.

No, you would not set it to low, at least not with the items that I am suggesting, ESPECIALLY the Smash Ball, because you need to ensure that both players acquire it.

your dealing in hypotheticals with items that you want altered for completive players; a minority competive play who would rather fight with items; a MUCH greater minority. it will not happen.

I am suggesting a fair criteria, I am not under any illusions that getting competitive players to accept items would be anything other then difficult irregardless of how fair the items are because of social inertia.

But, of course we are dealing with hypothetical, aren't we all? Brawl isn't out yet, and depending on what they do with Brawl, my stance may chance (if they do certain things, or do not do certain things, I guarantee you my stance will change). As of right now, my stance is only, "with the information we have, these items, and only these items are fair, assuming that containers can be removed".

the ONLY way to allow items in completive play, is if the acquisition of said items is based on skill and a logical choice.

And that's where we disagree, if the real strategy is after the item is acquired, and ultimately an equilibrium is set up (banana peels effect both players, smash are only usible for one final smash, etc.), then there is no detraction from skill. Still a case of logical strategic choices, just of a different kind.

Final Smashes are different for every character, ergo it very well may not be fair. Don't make assumptions.

You mean like some characters are faster, have all around better moves, and a nice efficient little shine spike?

If you're talking about the difference between characters' abilities, that's what what the tier list is for, sure, we can try to balance it as much as possible, but ultimately, that's not possible, as was shown by the Fox/falco domination of this past game. I fully expect final smashes to be a factor into the tier list if the smash ball is a legal item.

that's really not correct at all. Obviously, the items are inherently cheap as well. Even if they didn't explode at all, items would still be banned in SSBM. They all give one player an unfair advantage that they probably do not deserve.

No, Items are not cheap, Items are random IN THE CURRENT GAME (making assumptions about Brawl is bad, so this is all in theory), but random in the fact that they confer a random advantage to whichever character is closer to the randomly chosen spawn point when they appear.

My hypothetical situation is this, items that essentially have equilibrium, therefore, do not inherently confer an advantage upon the person who picks it up, ultimately.

Thus I come to items that have just that criteria, Banana peels, because they effect both players, so anyone can force their opponent into it ergo no not advantage for the person who picks it up, and Smash Balls, because you can only use final smash once so both players will get it at some point (fair at 4 or more lives with reasonable spawn rate).

Remember, the question, in terms of banning anything is not, "why have this in-game", it's "why not have this in game", you have to prove that it detracts from the game significantly enough to warrant a ban.




Keep in mind, I have absolutely NO issue with items being banned in melee, none of the items fit this criteria in melee.

 

[SiD]

But for a move as powerful as FS's seem to be, it is way too unbalanced to allow it in real matches, unless you earn it like this thread suggests.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But for a move as powerful as FS's seem to be, it is way too unbalanced to allow it in real matches, unless you earn it like this thread suggests.

How can something be inherently (thus setting aside differences between characters, better dealt with on the tier list) unbalanced if both players get to use it equally and have the same opportunity to use it? Unbalanced is a comparative term, powerful does not mean unbalanced if the opponent has access to the same type of power then it's not unbalanced.

The issue here isn't balance, it's protecting the matches from being too random. Balance (actually, lack thereof) is dealt with on the tier list.

 

[SiD]

How can something be unbalanced if both players get to use it equally and have the same opportunity to use it? Unbalanced is a comparative term, powerful does not mean unbalanced if the opponent has access to the same type of power then it's not unbalanced.

The issue here isn't balance, it's protecting the matches from being too random. Balance (actually, lack thereof) is dealt with on the tier list.

Your wrong. They don't get to use it equally. Look at the difference between Link FS and Pits.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Your wrong. They don't get to use it equally. Look at the difference between Link FS and Pits.

That's not equal use, that's equal EFFECT. Big difference. Again picking the up-smash example, I can use Fox's upsmash as much as I can use Link's up-smash. However, they have decidedly different effects.

It's the same with final smash, same conditions on use, BUT different effects, and one will probably be more useful (though the difference may be slight, or may be enormous, we don't know yet) then they other which will be reflect on the tier list (again, assuming legal smash balls in tournaments), but because one is more powerful then the other doesn't mean it should be banned, otherwise we'd all be forced to play with Bowser.

 

[SiD]

That's not equal use, that's equal EFFECT. Big difference. Again picking the up-smash example, I can use Fox's upsmash as much as I can use Link's up-smash. However, they have decidedly different effects.

It's the same with final smash, same conditions on use, BUT different effects, and one will probably be more useful (though the difference may be slight, or may be enormous, we don't know yet) then they other which will be reflect on the tier list (again, assuming legal smash balls in tournaments), but because one is more powerful then the other doesn't mean it should be banned, otherwise we'd all be forced to play with Bowser.

Yes it should, because of how powerful FS appear to be. It is different than a smash a attack it appears to deal MASSIVE damage, and therefore you analogy is irrelevant.

 

[Zenjamin]

ok. im going to bed.

but before i go i must ask adumbrodeus and everyone to PLEASE stop talking about items themselves be balanced to be used in the completive scene. there are many other threads like that. just either support or reject the idea in my original post.

not in comparison to something else just...

just please stay on topic and use logic.