A very easy idea of how to stop all this Brawl tier list nonsense.

[Toomai]

Everyone who's been around here even remotely recently has noticed the thousands of tier list discussions popping up. And yes, this is another one. But it's different in the way that I believe I have an answer to the problem.

What is a tier list? For such a simple question, it's difficult to answer. What is for sure is this: newbies to Smash who see a tier list have a high chance of seeing it as a list of who wins the most. Is this a good thing? I wouldn't think so.

Of course, most of you will say "But it isn't a list of who wins the most, you dumbell dirigible dingbat." And you'd be right in a way. But if a newbie sees it as such the first time, it takes a while to "unlearn" it. Even then, there is little evidence against said idea.

Yes, I'm aware that it will be a while (probably a year, from what I'm hearing) before the big cheeses around here can even begin to construct a tier list. But really, that's just delaying the issue. (I am assuming that Brawl will have a tier list, despite everything the development team's done to avoid it. It's not a stupid assumption.) What we need is a way to completely ignore this tier list stuff. Do you have any idea what it would be like to play Brawl without worrying about a tier list for as long as your Wii works, not just for a year or two? Plus, think about the amount of "why isn't x char top tier?" or "wut is teh teer list?!" topics that are made. It would really keep the forums cleaner.

The solution is this: DO NOT CREATE A TIER LIST UNLESS IT CAN BE OBJECTIVELY AND/OR NUMERICALLY PROVEN.

• This does not deny that a tier list exists. It simply says "I'm not telling you which character's best, you go get good at the game and find out yourself."
• If the tier list can be proven objectively or numerically (such as "X beats Y 75% of the time in pro matches"), then there can be no arguments about which chars are better until a new playstyle or technique is discovered. (Personally, this would suck, but it's better than saying "X can [technique] to Y and therefore wins every time" even though [technique] is very difficult to do and Y may pwn X otherwise.)
• There is a flaw with this idea: there may be a bunch of "Here's my tier list" topics. But I would suspect most of those topics would come from a non-pro Smasher, and therefore wouldn't carry much weight. Plus, if board policy were to be "We're not telling you which character's best, you go get good at the game and find out yourself," then only pure newbies would even care.

I will not be surprised if everyone and their GameCube hates me for postulating this idea, and I don't care if I get flamed for it. I am simply proposing an idea which has the potential to kill Brawl-related tier list nonsense. In my opinion, the SSBM tier list caused a chain reaction that suffocated playing at high levels just for fun.

Imagine how much more fun the Mario Kart DS online scene would be if snaking was kept a complete secret. Don't let this happen to Brawl.

 

[:034:]

 

[Jeff Highwind]

I can tell you one reason why this wouldnt work:

Too many new people suffer from delusions of grandeur. They think their word is law and everyone else is wrong. Hence all the threads.

 

[MasterCheeze]

Well, the only thing I think is weird about the Melee-tier list is that it's based on what characters wins most of the tournaments, right? What if, this being a very stupid hypothetical, the only character that was played was Bowser or someone? Would that make him the top-tier character since he has to win no matter what?

If there is a Brawl-tier list, I just hope everyone is like, Middle-tier to High-tier— barely any difference between their skill level. Brawl seems to have improved that on a lot of characters.

 

[:034:]

Well, the only thing I think is weird about the Melee-tier list is that it's based on what characters wins most of the tournaments, right?

No.

http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Tier_list

 

[supersonicdjs]

I say let people vote AFTER THE GAME COMES OUT IN THE AMERICAS!

 

[Finch]

The tier list is based mostly on who wins tournaments the most. Therefore, it changes and by nature is not infallible. More people should know this so they know that they can ignore it if they want to. I'm sure that when Chu first picked up Ice Climbers they were much lower on the tier list, and if/when the 2007-2008 melee tier list comes out Jigglypuff will probably be much higher because of Mango, as well as a lot of other puff players that have been popping up. These players didn't look at who was high tier and decided to main one of them, and you don't have to either.

But some people like the tier list, it's a good guide of what character to use if you want to be serious about the game. Mew2king would probably never have gotten to where he is had he not noticed that his main character was at the very bottom, and switched to the ones at the top.

In any case it will be made whether you want it to or not, and it won't be based on theory because theory doesn't win tournaments.

 

[BentoBox]

Educating the ignorant people is the only solution. Leaving them in the dark will in no way stop them from speculating about things they do not even understand.

 

[plasmatorture]

There will be a tier list. It is inevitable.
If you let a speculative tier list created between now and a year or two from now, and you let that change how you play, it's your own fault for being a weak sheep who doesn't know how to think for yourself.
I don't care if someone - or LOTS of people - come out and say "Yoshi is the worst character" or something similar; as a random main, it sure as hell doesn't matter to me and even if I were to pick my character I like to play as all of them.

 

[Fletch]

DO NOT CREATE A TIER LIST UNLESS IT CAN BE OBJECTIVELY AND/OR NUMERICALLY PROVEN.

This will never happen, so what you are saying is that we should never create a tier list. Even in Melee, the lowest tiers can beat the high tiers, it's just very unlikely. A tier list will never be able to be made completely objectively or numerically as you put it as no two players play the same or have the exact same level of skill.

Imagine how much more fun the Mario Kart DS online scene would be if snaking was kept a complete secret. Don't let this happen to Brawl.

Maybe in your opinion... Most competitive players want to play the game to death to find their own advantages, and have more fun that way. Hence the advanced techniques in Melee that made the game so fun to play. No offense intended, but your opinion on this matter seems very biased.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

*sigh*

As much as I WISH the world was perfect, it's not.

People who want to WIN want to know the best character. That way, if they are the best with the best character, they will win.


You wouldn't consistently play Pichu if you were playing for money, would you?

 

[TheMadShrew]

You wouldn't consistently play Pichu if you were playing for money, would you?

That is such a horrible example. But you are right.

 

[joeysmash]

That is such a horrible example. But you are right.

not really....

 

[DarkPhoenix87]

The drama over tier lists exists because new players and scrubs don't understand what tier lists are. I know this because I was arguing tier lists as far back as 2003. The way to "stop all this Brawl tier list nonsense" is very easy.

First, you have to explain what the tier list is. It's an objective measure of how well characters have performed in tournaments. It is not a skill level chart, showing which character would beat which given players of equal skill, or maximum skill, or any of that jazz.

Second, you have to explain that this definition leaves open the possibility of change. You have to stress that a tier list is not a ranking of the characters as they are programmed into the game, but rather a ranking of characters as they are played in competition. The way to demonstrate this is very easy. Peach used to be considered a "bad" character in SSBM. In order for her to be considered one of the best, someone had to come along and play her very well. Therefore, a character is only considered bad so long as no one has demonstrated that the character can be used effectively.

Third, you can't get angry. The people who get offended or scared by tiers don't know what they're talking about. They feel threatened that their character is low on the list and think that it dooms them to mediocrity. By explaining that any character has the potential to be good, and that a tier list is just a way of ranking characters based on past performance, you'll help ease their fears and make them more likely to accept the tier list for what it is.

Also, it helps if you yourself understand what you're talking about. Tiers don't tell you who the best character is, although that is a helpful and near-accurate notation. They tell you which character has performed the best, in the hands of capable players playing in highly competitive situations.

As for the first post, I have something specific to respond to that will change the way you think about tier lists.

Yes, I'm aware that it will be a while (probably a year, from what I'm hearing) before the big cheeses around here can even begin to construct a tier list.

A tier list can be made by anyone. However, the "definitive" tier list will be made by aggregating tournament results and first-hand accounts of professional players. My point is that this isn't some hidden, covert operation that no one can know about. There are no "big cheeses," just people with a lot of time on their hands constructing a list that serves no rational purpose (for novice players), and inexperienced players who obey it like some kind of royal edict. My advice? Stop paying so much attention to what the Smash Boards staff and "respected members" say. Don't stress about some list that has limited bearing on actual performance. The real action is in tournaments. So go out and play.

 

[iron blade]

Here's an easy solution: Don't post in the tier threads and let them die.

 

[Psychofox]

Imagine how much more fun the Mario Kart DS online scene would be if snaking was kept a complete secret. Don't let this happen to Brawl.

I actually had more fun playing competitive matches because it was a battle of consistant snaking skill, which I found more challenging (and fun), and I also knew that Id be also playing against people who didn't snake, so I played more casually in those cases. But even then, with the items in mario kart, it wasnt completely competitive and wasn't as skill inducing.

If snaking was a technique that was meant to be in the game (which it was) and was kept a secret, I would've had exactly as much fun as I did with the knowledge of continuing drift-power boosting, but Im pretty sure I would've slowed down my online activity with it much sooner.

 

[180OP]

The drama over tier lists exists because new players and scrubs don't understand what tier lists are. I know this because I was arguing tier lists as far back as 2003. The way to "stop all this Brawl tier list nonsense" is very easy.

First, you have to explain what the tier list is. It's an objective measure of how well characters have performed in tournaments. It is not a skill level chart, showing which character would beat which given players of equal skill, or maximum skill, or any of that jazz.

Second, you have to explain that this definition leaves open the possibility of change. You have to stress that a tier list is not a ranking of the characters as they are programmed into the game, but rather a ranking of characters as they are played in competition. The way to demonstrate this is very easy. Peach used to be considered a "bad" character in SSBM. In order for her to be considered one of the best, someone had to come along and play her very well. Therefore, a character is only considered bad so long as no one has demonstrated that the character can be used effectively.

Third, you can't get angry. The people who get offended or scared by tiers don't know what they're talking about. They feel threatened that their character is low on the list and think that it dooms them to mediocrity. By explaining that any character has the potential to be good, and that a tier list is just a way of ranking characters based on past performance, you'll help ease their fears and make them more likely to accept the tier list for what it is.

Also, it helps if you yourself understand what you're talking about. Tiers don't tell you who the best character is, although that is a helpful and near-accurate notation. They tell you which character has performed the best, in the hands of capable players playing in highly competitive situations.

As for the first post, I have something specific to respond to that will change the way you think about tier lists.


A tier list can be made by anyone. However, the "definitive" tier list will be made by aggregating tournament results and first-hand accounts of professional players. My point is that this isn't some hidden, covert operation that no one can know about. There are no "big cheeses," just people with a lot of time on their hands constructing a list that serves no rational purpose (for novice players), and inexperienced players who obey it like some kind of royal edict. My advice? Stop paying so much attention to what the Smash Boards staff and "respected members" say. Don't stress about some list that has limited bearing on actual performance. The real action is in tournaments. So go out and play.

I dont know why anyone would post after this. Just read, ponder and comprehend.

All I know is, this guy's/gal's english is top tier. Want to do my essay due in a while buddy?

 

[ROOOOY!]

*sigh*

As much as I WISH the world was perfect, it's not.

People who want to WIN want to know the best character. That way, if they are the best with the best character, they will win.


You wouldn't consistently play Pichu if you were playing for money, would you?

No. I wouldn't play as Pichu. I'd play with Falcon, because I'm most comfortable with him. Not Fox or Falco, because I can't use them for ****, and probably couldn't even if I practised with them for a year.

 

[Ultimatum479]

DarkPhoenix's second point ends this debate. The primary reason to dislike a tier list would be that you don't concur with the particular order of that list, and, unless your disagreement stems from whim rather than evidence, that can be resolved by proving the superiority of your lower-ranked character in-game.