A SoNiC GuIdE -5/07/09 - Some interesting frame data

[darkNES386]

"Come On! Step It Up!" Version 3.8

I.Acknowledgments
II.Overview
III.Moveset: Jabs, Tilts, Smashes, Throws, Aerials, Specials
IV. Useful Advanced Techniques
V.Tournament Discussion
VI. Frame Data (For now most of it will be here until it's sorted out properly)
VII. Updates

I.Acknowledgments​

This guide is the combined efforts of many others besides myself. There are plenty of other useful threads that you should look at and take part in. I will point out other useful threads when appropriate. Please bring any concerns to my attention.

II.Overview​

The Good
Sonic has the fastest ground speed in the game. He covers final destination in under 1 second (57 frames).
An above average Sonic player is almost impossible to gimp thanks primarly to his spring recovery.
One of the best gimping characters in the game.
General Sonic knowledge of the average tournament player is pathetic.
He's an awesome punish character who thrives on careless/predictable opponents.
Versatile Recovery Options (reference recovery tier list)
His weight is quite impressive (reference Mew2King weightclass)
Mind games, the ability to read your opponent is very rewarding.
The Bad
Mind games are only as good as the player using them... and Sonic needs them at high levels of play.
Doesn't have a projectile
KO power is below average
No sure way to land a KO. They must be earned in creative ways.
There's really no simple strategy to guarantee victory.
Individual match up knowledge is critical.
The Ugly
Sonic can't afford to become predictable. Many sonic players struggle with falling into predictable patterns.
Opponents need minimal knowledge of Sonic to keep an advantage on him.

III. Move Set​

-All percents are initial values before diminishing strength occurs
-Smash Attacks are (no charge/fully charged)
-Frame Data has been gathered either by myself or DJ browny... eventually all data will be primarily in move set where appropriate.
Attack - Damage(s) - Frame Data (INCOMPLETE!)
**PICTURE(s)**
Basic Description(s), Attributes

Jab (2%)

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2nd Jab (2%)

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3rd Jab..er Kick (3%)

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Dash Attack (Hit before 12 frame: 6%, otherwise: 4%) Frames: Total(43) HitBox(4-23)

Avoid using this move on opponents with low percentage. Their hitstun will end before you finish rolling and may be able to attack you.
Instant Dash Attack: Press down on the c-stick just as you press foward to release it as fast as possible
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ftilt (close up does two hits: 4% and 7%, otherwise: 7%) Frames: Total()

As with many ftilts you can angle the kick higher or lower.
Can cause tripps at low percents.
Use this when you're out of grab range.
Knocks opponent horizontally.
When an opponent is shielding on an edge, the first hit pushes them off(out of shield) and the second will connect.
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utilt (14%, kick 1 for 4+3%, Kick 2: 7% what? yes.) Frames: Total()

14% if you connect with both kicks!
This move finishes faster than usmash.
Has decent KO potential.
Especially effective follow up after dtilt.
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dtilt (6%) Frames: Total()

Has IASA frames>use this to input a second dtilt, other attack, or even pivot/attack.
Scoots Sonic forward, while lowering his body (smaller target).
Knocks opponent vertically.
Can cause trips at low percents.
Combos well into tilts, grabs and even usmash at low percents.
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fsmash (14%/20% GO!) Frames: Total()

Sonic's entire body (hurtbox included) moves back while charging.
The hitbox is disjointed, extending slightly infront of Sonic's fist.
Try to avoid overusing at low percents.
Can be angled like ftilt. This alters hitbox location, opponent trajectory does not change though.
Stutter Step increases range. (Forward or Backwards > c-stick fowards).
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usmash (Hits 8 times for a total of 14%/20%) Frames: Total()

Good damage builder/punisher bad finisher (opponent can DI before final knockback hit, bad KO power in general though).
Great against aerial opponents.
Has Invincy frames just as Sonic is leaving the ground. You can beat just about anything if timed right... even MK's tornado.

The Up-Smash has a delicate few invincibility frames. As Sonic transitions from standing on the ground into a spinniing blue ball in the air, his hurtbox disappears for just a couple frames. It's not something to rely on, but it's good to know. Here's a [video demonstration].

Learn the true Hyphen Smash to maximize range from standing still.
*Just because you can do this doesn't mean you should take on a DDD recovery (compare Risk<Reward).
*On rare occasisions certain characters at certain percents can find themselves being spiked downward which could result in a KO near the edge of a stage.

As Sonic you can't really control when this actually happens.
From a full dash this move can cover some serious ground. The Hyphen Smash and Dash Attack Cancel are both discussed in the Advanced Technique section.
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dsmash (12%,9%,6%. / 17%,14%,11% for 1st,2nd,3rd possible hit) Frames: Total()

The first motion is fowards making it possible to dodge an incoming attack and then release.
Great for punishing predictable rolls/spot dodges.
Has IASA frames (So don't wait for Sonic to stand back up before doing something).
Looks similar to Sonic's spin specials.
*On the edge of a stage this move will push Sonic towards the middle "increasing" its attack range. You have slightly better range if you start with Sonic's back towards the center of the stage.
*Be careful when this move is perfectly shielded near the edge of the stage, Sonic slide right off the stage.

dsmash comes out qicker than fsmash, and has a quicker charge release. I don't think enough Sonics use it to kill when its almost as viable as fsmash in KO power, while also hitting both ways and coming out quicker.

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Pummel (3% per knee) Frames: Total()

One of the fastest pummels in the game.
Learn the grab release properties in the advanced technique section.
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bthrow (8%) Frames: Total()

Horizontal throw is good for forcing your opponent off stage.
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fthrow (9%, another crazy kick that hits twice) Frames: Total()

Doesn't have lots of knockback
Useful at mid-percents when you want to keep your opponent close.
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uthrow (12%, 2 hits... this is getting ridiculous) Frames: Total()

Effective for semi chain grabs at low percents on heavy characters.
Easiest throw to combo into.
Sets up spring uair/bair KOs around 90% intially (depending on character). Be creative when your opponent is expecting it.
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dthrow (8%) Frames: Total()

Forces most charcters to stay on the ground>follow up with Sonic's groundspeed.
It's possible to DI and tech this throw instantly (directly infront of Sonic), which limits this throws effectiveness.
Great for forcing opponents low off stage when by an edge.
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nair (11% if immediately connects, 8% or finally 5% if it hits late) Frames: Total()

Crazy hitbox allows for flexibility.
Useful for spin combo variety and when you want to conserve your other aerial specials.
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uair ( %,% two legit kicks) Frames: Total()

The first kick is disjointed sideways.
Connecting with the first kick doesn't gurantee the second one will hit.
Second one has much better vertical range/priority.
Second kick has good knocback.
Almost zero lag ever on landing so always be ready for your next move.

Uair, perhaps it would be good to mention that you can(and should) fastfall it in order to space so you hit with the second hit. Its priority above is so great that I don't think there is a single dair in the game that outprioritizes a well spaced Sonic uair. Sonic's legs dont count as a hurtbox, and it extends a nice distance past the actual animation.

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fair (6-14%) Frames: Total()

This move has one of Sonic's longest lasting hit boxes.
The final part of the attack extends the hitbox slightly infront of Sonic.
Can be a KO move if used offstage properly.
NOt as effective on smaller characters on ground until higher percents
Execute immediately on a short hop to avoid rather long landing lag.
Fast fall will still create lag so only use when you feel confident.
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dair (8% for sweet spot, otherwise 7%) Frames: Total()

Pretty nice priority.
Great for punishing low recoveries.
Allows for quick return to ground after using spring.
If it fully finishes before passing an edge Sonic will grab (recovery option).
Effective for Star KO when opponent attempts to follow you after successfully sending you up.
Like many moves, you will appear to float in place if your momentum was still carrying you up.
The landing lag is very bad if you don't start it high enough:
No Cancel on dair ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~With Cancel:

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bair (13% for sweet spot, otherwise 9%) Frames: Total()

One of Sonic's awesome killing moves. The blue blur kicks backward, with good knockback. Unfortunately, since this is one of your kill moves, you shouldn't be using it to wrack up too much damage, unless you plan on killing with the others. It's really your choice on how you want to use this move. Good move for setting up tech-chasing at lower percents.

This move has no landing lag so don't be shy with it. This is one of the few moves that mastering can greatly increase your game. Short hopping over MK attacks and properly spacing after uthrows or dodge happy players will teach opponents to hate this move very quickly.

Follow up either spin shots or spin jumps with this move to give yourself more ways of connecting it. When your opponent uses a tether recovery or becomes careless near the edge run off and throw this baby their direction to generate a stage spike. It is also commonly used when an opponent shields your many spin specials and attempts to pursuit you. Don't get too predictable with that though.
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Homing Attack-neutral special (8%) Frames: Total()

This move really was a disappointment originally. Massive charge lag, lag afterwards, easy to dodge, shield, whatever. You can cut down on the charge lag (press B during charge up) to make it far more versatile. It can be used as a recovery move and a follow up after missing or connecting with any aerial or spin attack. Once you begin using the cancel version, it may become useful to let it fully charge from time to time, throwing off your opponents timing. If you know they're about to try to grab/smash/whatever, you can short-hop into this for a surprise attack. ASCs look similar to this move and so do canceled aerial spin charges so be sure to mix them all in. Depending on who your opponent is you can use this move to pursuit them off stage. It works exceptionally well off stage with large characters like D3 and Charizard. Snake is also a sitting duck for this move. More evidence why faking them out with a canceled aerial spin charge may trick them into a massive opening. At the very least, be careful with it. Using this move too much and improperly will leave you open to attacks or send you further away from the stage than you would like.

Basic HA lock-on/success concepts:
-Facing opponent has slightly larger attack range then starting the HA with your back to your opponent.
-"locks-on" occurs at release of attack, not when you first start it.
-The move does not home on the center of your opponent's body. If you drew a rectangle around your opponent the attack always tries to pass through the upper corner on the opposite side.

-Opponents moving towards you: attack from below.
-Opponent moving away from you: attack from above. This explains why snake is so easy to hit (when he doesn't dodge) and why a character that recovers lower like Ike is next to impossible to hit.
-The more vertically you are aligned with your opponent, the more likely you will connect.
-The more horizontal distance between you and your opponent you will likely miss. Miss here = locking on... but zipping past your opponent. This is why you need to be careful if you use this move when recovering. You will find yourself flying just over your opponent and probably landing with lag right behind them, begging to be punished by your careless recovery.

I tried to make a chart for this move but it's so difficult to make an accurate one, plus it's better to understand how it behaves when your opponent is moving (as described above).

*GREEN=Best Chance
*YELLOW=Very situational see above tips
*RED=Won't lock-on at all
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Spring-UpB (4%) Frames: Total()

Sonic's ultimate recovery move. A springboard appears out of nowhere, and launches Sonic high enough to make G&W jealous. Sonic can attack/dodge shortly afterwards, preventing him from being a sitting duck. If used on the ground, the springboard remains for a short period of time or until you use the move again. There are also invincibility frames shortly after Sonic starts to move up, but not before he leaves the spring. Any opponents that lands on it will be launched in a similar fashion. It can be used to set traps, as you can set one, let the opponent land on it, then follow them into the air with a new Up B, and either uair, bair, fair, or whatever. Not a set combo, by any means, but still an option. This is very situational.

If you use this in the air, the springboard tumbles, and acts as a projectile. This move is great for cancelling dairs, gimping recoveries, killing off the top with uair at OBSCENELY low percents (80%, anyone?), and just good-old-fashioned recovery. Do your best to pull off uair/bair kills and springboard spiking when presented with the chance. If they DI properly you won’t be able to simply spring up and hit them. You can increase the lateral range on this move by executing a fair or bair once it has launched you in the air. This move is one more reason why Sonic can comfortably chase opponents offstage without fear of not making it back.

It should be noted that Sonic can not be gimped with edgehugging as easily as most characters. When Sonic does a Spring Jump he can still perform a footstool jump.
Watch this video for more details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX4r6TnbnpU
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[SIZE="3]-The Spin Specials-[/SIZE]
[b][SIZE="3"]Watch Infzy's Spin Special Video. It covers quite a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k

Tenki has an awesome thread that covers every possible detail on all aspects of the two spin moves at Sonic's disposal. I highly encourage you to check it out, however I will attempt to cover the most basic of concepts for those not interested in sifting through
Tenki's thread.[/b]<----[/size]

Spin Summary
-Anytime after either spin move is on the ground you are doing the exact same move, a Spin Dash Roll. Whenever you jump from a SDR you are doing the same move.
-The regaining of Sonic's second jump can be very confusing. Here's a simple concept: Anytime Sonic is in a ball you are still doing your "recovery special." You will not get back your recovery until you do anything that any other normal character would do to get it back... mainly touching the stage regularly.
-Both spin specials are extremely different when released in the air.

Side B- Spin Dash (hop)

Sonic will hop forwards, with very good priority and then proceed to role on the ground. You can use your second jump before the hop lands to avoid/adjust for the situation. This move can be canceled with a shield as long as Sonic is still "moving" backwards.

Down B- Spin Charge

Sonic does not hop forward but instead moves straight across the ground. An aerial version of this move can be canceled upon landing by holding shield. If you hold backwards it will not cancel. You can also cancel this move by releasing B while still holding down... the longer you were pressing B the longer before it cancels. If you only press B once and quickly roll the joystick away from down you can cancel the charge even faster than normal (Sonic will not produce any aura). You can do this in the air as well, the fastest timing allows you to short hop forwards and have it canceled before you even land.

-Spin Terminology-
Spin Dash (SD): Sonic's forward B special prior to release
Spin Charge (SC): Sonic's down B special prior to release
Spin Dash Roll (SDR): When Sonic is rolling on the ground beacause of a spin charge or spin dash.
Aerial Spin Charge (ASC): After a spin charge is released in the air or any spin dash roll that transitions from a platform/stage to the air.
Hop: The little jump after a Spin Dash is released
Spin Dash Jump (SDJ): Anytime Sonic jumps from a Spin Dash Roll
Vertical Spin Jump (VSJ): A spin jump that happens prior to releasing either spin special on the ground.
Jump Cancel: When Sonic jumps out of ball form from a hop, spin dash jump, or vertical spin dash jump. This uses Sonic's second jump.
Spin Shot: Perfectly timed jump cancel (uses second jump) primarily used after a hop resulting in increased air speed and total displacement.

IV. Useful Advanced Techniques:​

-I decided to start this over since I sometimes say wayyy to much.

V. Tournament Discussion​

-For now see our community matchup discussion thread and stage discussion threads

VI. Frame Data (not complete)​

Tenki may notice this section as similar to the message he sent me late last year. Now that I'm virtually done with my semester I had a nice chunk of free time today to get to know Sonic a lot better. You really start to appreciate all the images in Brawl that the human eye can't normally see.

Please ask any questions incase you're confused.
IASA = Interrupt As Soon As (aka, you can shield/attack at this point)


Simple Pivot (standing and turning in place)
I’ve been able to do the following as early as shown, it’s my understanding that you only need 1 frame to turn though…On 2: shield On 3: tilts On 4: jab

Dash (running)
Dash Start: Frames (7)
1: Trip (73 total) can occur, 7-11 Invincy?
1-3: Initial animation, can't be interrupted. (Sonic magically slides since he has to accelerate so fast, as he hunches over)
After 4: Can side-B
5-7: A new Dash Start in the reverse direction can begin. (1 frame as sonic starts to turn, then goes back to the initial Dash animation above)
8th: Foxtrot or Dash animation begins

Foxtrot (after Dash Start): 29
11-20: Begin a new Dash Start
-always ends at same time regardless of length traveled
-must fully finish before he can do regular attacks or shield
-jump, dash attack, usmash or side B at anytime.

Out of Dash Options
Screech Stop – (19) IASA: 14-19
Dash-around (after Dash Start) 20 IASA:
Shield Stop
Attack: 15
Standing Grab: 1 shield frame prior (fastest)

Covering FD
From startup to 1/2: 30
Full: 57, 58 Sonic falls off edge
*So basically Sonic takes 3 frames to accelerate to top speed, oh snap
*Sonic is not affected by dashing past a character.

Jumps
Jump to freefall – total of 38 (Regardless of short hop or full jump)
1-6: Sonic leaves ground after
7-10: initial jump before going into ball form
11-37:stays in ball
38: out of ball and begins to enter free fall

shorthop length (no fastfall) – lands on 46
shorthop (fastfall ASAP) – 40 < best I can get
fullhop (no fastfall) – shield on 71
fullhop (fastfall ASAP) – shield on 57 < best I can get

Dodges
Spot Dodge: 21 Invincy ends
Air Dodge: 30 Invincy ends
Roll: 32 frames till shield is back out (on 20 Invincy ends)
*tested with both triple falco pawnage and bowser flame (I was wary of invincy frames ending when landing on air dodge).

Shield Stop: 20
Attack: 15 (IASA starts)
Standing Grab: 1 shield frame prior (fastest)

Grabs
Standing Grab: 6 frames
Standing Grab Whiff: Shield on 30
Dashning Grab: 10 frames
Dashning Grab Whiff: Shield on 40


RunAround – 23 IASA starts::17

SPRING:- sits for 240 frames (4 seconds)
1: Sonic prepares to be launched
2: Spring appears
5: Sonic leaves spring
10-14: Sonic is definitely invincible (needs more research)
18: IASA Start
37-50: Sonic reaches apex
-From apex dair>autocancel>shield takes 45 frames
-starting dair between frames 18 and 28 result in no auto cancel)
-fastest possible cancelable dair takes 67 frames total (Spring>Dair>autoCancel>shields 5 frames later)

Down-B:
- Charge:
- - - - Startup lag/length until single-charge's release (I heard that B-sticking might help get a perfect single-charge [?]) – 12 to charge aura, frame 16 aura appears for SDR
- - - - "Spin out"/ending lag (try holding down until the charge dies, or alternatively/easier, total length of a 0-charge down-B [like if you instantly let go of down] and subtract the startup lag frames)
- Single-charge data (flat level):
- - - - Speed: Length of time to cross 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, all of FD.
- - - - Turnaround: Length of time to perform a turnaround, until you can SDJ.
- Full-charge data (flat level):
- - - - Speed: Length of time to cross 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, all of FD.
- - - - Turnaround: Length of time to perform a turnaround, until you can SDJ. – 36 frames, 37th frame is SDJ… also frame when hitbox returns

Side-B:
- Startup lag (minimum time until shield comes out - Bonus is to test minimum charge until you can VSDJ) 8th frame in ball… for vsdj (not angled), begins moving up on 9th frame.
- Single charge side-B (# of frames from startup until it starts the hop - I suspect that shield might come earlier) – 9 till shield comes out (takes 2 from startup)
- Hop length (flat level) - from release to landing. 30 frames
- Invincibility frames on: ____

60 frames for spin dash jump to end with Sonic in free fall

BONUS:
- Length of time for Spinshot to cover 1/4 and 1/2 of FD

VII. Updates:​

December 2nd, 2008 - attempted to start frame data. Due to computer issues/final exams I was unable to get much of this done.
January, 2009 - Minor updates and corrections
February 11th, 2009 - Included the Fox Trot > True Pivot Technique that I've been using quite regularly now. This establishes a valid use for the grind AT.
May 7th - initial repost of pretty much everything, some frame data of my own popped in

Thanks for reading

 

[memphischains]

Nice Dnes, you be the man. Everyone should look at this and use it's guidance

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Great guide man,only thing I saw that needs fixin is ,ASC is an airial spin charge.XD You listed them seperate in the HA part.

 

[memphischains]

actually, now that I think of it, why don't we bring all of the "used" threads that were made to make this and really bring a complete guide. like, match ups, etc.

also, i should mention I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT FOREVER. its a good idea. i'll even help compiling the info

also also, add the video's we have of the explained things

 

[Browny]

might wanna fix:

dash attack does 6% if you hit within the first maybe 1/3 of the attack
fair does 14% if all the hits connect
nair does 11,8,5 as the attack lingers
uair does 9% total when both kicks connect
utilt does 4,3,7 (i think) for a total of 14 over 3 hits
ftilt does 11 at very close range, 7% everywhere else.

Also do you want my frame data for the attacks... i cant be sure if its correct (i cant think of a more accurate method than the one im using) but at least its something

 

[Greenstreet]

cool. u might want to add on the lock ha section if the character is spot dodging during the charge up (specifically when the move decides its arc) it will not hit and will be treated as if no1 is even in range.
P.s. after a bit of testing with a gaw it seems that the first 1/3 of his parachute (upb), in which he has invinc frames, sonics ha will not detect him. and has sent me to my doom in a few friendlies where i thought it wud b funny to ha off the edge.

 

[Umby]

Section II means I actually have to finish a thread I wanted to let die. ;_;

 

[darkNES386]

Great guide man,only thing I saw that needs fixin is ,ASC is an airial spin charge.XD You listed them seperate in the HA part.

I'll look at what you're talking about.

actually, now that I think of it, why don't we bring all of the "used" threads that were made to make this and really bring a complete guide. like, match ups, etc.

also, i should mention I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT FOREVER. its a good idea. i'll even help compiling the info

also also, add the video's we have of the explained things

That's cool, I encourage you to talk to any users who's threads you work with. My biggest frustration is that the stickied match up thread hasn't been updated in a while and instead we have random character discussion threads floating around.

might wanna fix:

dash attack does 6% if you hit within the first maybe 1/3 of the attack
fair does 14% if all the hits connect
nair does 11,8,5 as the attack lingers
uair does 9% total when both kicks connect
utilt does 4,3,7 (i think) for a total of 14 over 3 hits
ftilt does 11 at very close range, 7% everywhere else.

Wow, I messed up on some of that a lot. Now I feel dumb. I'm going in training mode right now.

Also do you want my frame data for the attacks... i cant be sure if its correct (i cant think of a more accurate method than the one im using) but at least its something

If you want to attempt frame data then go for it. I encourage you to talk to Magus420(click ) and tell him what your plan is for acquiring the data. It would at least save you the hassle of acquiring it an "inaccurate way." If you already have the data then point me to the thread or post it here and we can all look at it.

cool. u might want to add on the lock ha section if the character is spot dodging during the charge up (specifically when the move decides its arc) it will not hit and will be treated as if no1 is even in range.
P.s. after a bit of testing with a gaw it seems that the first 1/3 of his parachute (upb), in which he has invinc frames, sonics ha will not detect him. and has sent me to my doom in a few friendlies where i thought it wud b funny to ha off the edge.

I will mention that a character who is in invincibility frames from their own moves/spot dodging, rolling or rolling up from an edge as the HA attempts to lock-on will result in a complete miss. Does that work?

Section II means I actually have to finish a thread I wanted to let die. ;_;

Which thread did you want to let die. If you're talking about the ... then wait... mnid gmaes?

 

[Greenstreet]

yeh did some testing just then and that seems to be the case, and adds to reason that game and watch is one of the hardest characters to gimp. maybe range of the ha is necessary. facing the opponent on the ground it has a maximum range of half fd. will do more testin tomorow but i have uni. i'll b tryin stuff like falling, recovering ranges etc etc i'll let u guys know how it goes. good luck with it all

 

[darkNES386]

There are so many variables with the homing attack that you have to really organize it carefully like a science experiment or something. Sonic's starting point/if it cancels/where the opponent is relative to him. If anyone thinks the HA picture can be improved go for it.

 

[Umby]

Take a screen shot from the HA explanation on Lightspeed maybe?

 

[Greenstreet]

put in commands for techs like the spin shot maybe? just short little explanations maybe..
umm..also timing need not be required on the spin shot if u just hit down on the c stick wen charging SD.
bed time. l8as

 

[Tenki]

might wanna fix:

dash attack does 6% if you hit within the first maybe 1/3 of the attack
fair does 14% if all the hits connect
nair does 11,8,5 as the attack lingers
uair does 9% total when both kicks connect
utilt does 4,3,7 (i think) for a total of 14 over 3 hits
ftilt does 11 at very close range, 7% everywhere else.

Also do you want my frame data for the attacks... i cant be sure if its correct (i cant think of a more accurate method than the one im using) but at least its something

also, D-air does 7 (non sweet spot) and B-air hits 9 (non sweet spot)

 

[Boxob]

His grab pummel is the best in the game and should be used as such.
Grab as often as possible, especially at higher percents.

 

[Greenstreet]

i guess that was sonics compromise. no priority for speed and a sweet pummel. lol (i am aware he has more, just makin light of it)

 

[infomon]

Awesome, the guide looks great! Thanks for all the work on this, I'ma pore over this right now.

Edit: A comment... the dash-attack section says:

Sonic curls up into a ball and spins across a length that spans just shy of 1/2 of FD. Really good range, good cool-down, decent priority, and the ability to chain into reverse ftilts or grabs at certain percents all make this move viable for approaches. It has very little "priority", but if it clash-cancels, just start up either the A,A,A or ftilt."

(emphasis mine) so the priority comments contradict themselves.

Also, the whole notion of "priority" in all this is kind of misleading and/or wrong. (agree?) Priority is based on hitboxes vs. hurtboxes, and clashing can happen based on the amount of damage that the attacks would cause.

So Sonic's dash-attack will clash with pretty much any weak attack that might cause flinching (ie. Fox's lazor doesn't count), and will lose to attacks that do more than 15-17%. According to the Physics of Attacks thread, anyway; I haven't tested myself.

So I guess... it's not unfair to say that the dash-attack has low priority, but I think it's kinda misleading to talk about priority on any of his moves, as if it's something different than the attack's damage strength. Just my preference.

Also, it'd be nice to include Sonic's ledge-recovery attacks, and maybe his out-of-trip attack cuz having the pictures helps.

 

[Greenstreet]

maybe there is an explanation of the contradiction? and i think with right timing the dash attack can cancel out some smashes

 

[darkNES386]

I honestly can't give you guys a good answer right now about the dash attack. Either I connect or I find myself rolling through someone's shield / spot dodge. We should look into it more though / someone else can say what they know.

 

[infomon]

I just tested some spindashing in training mode. Ike's forward smash would cancel Sonic out of it and smack him hard at the same time. Ike's jab, alternatively, would just cancel with it. When I could get either attack to actually hit speedy ol' Sonic, that is

 

[Greenstreet]

yer i wonder about the weaker chars... try game and watch (altho his smash isnt weak at all lol), or maybe mario and luigi... heck why not try every1. its always useful to know. i gotta go to work

 

[infomon]

heck why not try every1.

Because as far as anyone knows, the only thing that matters is how much damage the attack will do. So just look up how much damage it would cause (taking into account stale moves), and how much damage the spindash will do (depends what frame you hit with it, and take into account stale moves), and if they're within 10% then both attacks will clash. Otherwise, spindash loses. Assuming, of course, that the hitboxes overlap, before the spindash is able to reach the enemy's hurtbox.

Unless you find a counter-example to this phenomenon, in which case, that's bigger news beyond Sonic's spindash.

 

[darkNES386]

Are we talking about Sonic's spin special or are we talking about his regular A dash attack right now?

 

[infomon]

Eeks, I meant his regular dash-attack!! Not spin-dash!!! D:

Nomenclature fail

 

[Greenstreet]

i was kiddin lol. noone expects u to do every char.

cyas

 

[memphischains]

Yeah, so I was thinking...

We have a stage thread but its gone nowhere meaningful, so I would purpose that we add stage specific pros and cons to this thread based off the stages that have been covered in the SBR Recommended Rule List. I mean EVERY stage.

Slowly, but steadily, we can add everything we have to this thread.

Yay? Nah?

 

[darkNES386]

Yay memphischains. Personally every neutral stage is awesome for Sonic. I've become a very big fan of lylat... especially when facing MKs and I'm picking up little things about yoshi's (brawl) that make this stage also very good for Sonic.

I would say we should start with a general idea first about what stage themes are good for Sonic:
1+A definite stage floor -No true bottom of stage
2+Platforms -Lack/no platforms
3+Fall off -Can't fall off stage

1:Sonic can't utilize his groundspeed if there is no "ground" to run across the stage on.
2:The amazing combo abilities and groundspeed of Sonic allows for him to punish opponents on platforms.
3:Sonic can gimp (Kill at low percent) many opponents on stages where KOs can be earned by falling. Later a better analysis can include stages where walk off deaths are plausible (GreenHillZone/Yoshi (pipes)/etc)

Starter
Battlefield 1,2,3
Final Destination1,3,2
Smashville1,2,3
Yoshi's Island1,2,3

You can quickly see how with the Starter stages alone, Sonic is in his own element. Some other strong stages for Sonic include Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium and the travel stages: Delfino and Halberd.

Probably one of the most frustrating SBR legal stages for Sonic would be Rainbow Cruise. Sonic has no ground to work with. His only advantage here is gimping offensively and difficulty of being gimped himself.

I'll add this somewhere, I don't think it's as important as the current section I'm working on.

 

[infomon]

Why not add the amount of damage Sonic's smashes do when they are charged up to the max? Even though I guess it's just a constant multiplier, that I assume is the same for all characters. It's still good for reference IMO.

Up-smash: 8 consecutive hits, uncharged does 14 damage, fully charged does 19
F-smash: uncharged does 14 damage, fully charged does 19

The guide mentions that D-smash has 3 different hits, but doesn't mention that they each do different damage. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to be a multi-hit attack, so no matter what you do you'll only take one of the three different damage levels

D-smash:
1st hit: 12 uncharged, 16 fully charged
2nd hit: 9 uncharged, 12 fully charged
3rd hit: 7 uncharged, 10 fully charged

 

[Napilopez]

Very good start DNES. It finaly seems like the SOnic boards are starting to shape up again. One thing about Uair: The second hit has much more than decent priority, its amazing. Infac I don't know any aerial coming down for above that outprioritizes a well-spaced Uair. The only possible exception might be lucario's Dair, but I'm pretty sure ive outprioritzed that as well. Its very frustrating for a G&W to use the key on you, only to have your seemingly week Uair outprioritize it(again, only the second hit, once its been fully extended)

Also, I'm pretty sure Fair actually does somewhere from 11 to 13 damage when all hits connect.

Making Sonic competitive I believe is about having an elegant mixture of finding opportunities and constant pressure. I personally like to always keep my opponent pressured in some way. This does not necesarily mean having an agressive play style, it means keeping your opponents on their toes, keeping pressure which will create the opening Sonic needs. This can be done through simple mindgames such as running past your oppnents without doing anything, or whatever creativity can concieve. Just dn't let your opponent take control of the match. Keep the mental pressure on, and then, once an opening is available, STIKE. Then, you can keep the physical(well, virtually physical) pressure on your opponent, and combo as much as possible until. Once your opponent seems to start regaining contrl, revert back to running arund and mindgames. Simple, but effective for me at least.

Anyways, all in all I can't wait to see the fruits of this guide.

A sonic fruit? Yummy.

 

[darkNES386]

There's nothing wrong with more information. Just tell me what to add and as long as it makes sense I'll put it in. It would be best if you inform me of what needs to be added instead of asking/expecting me to always figure it out myself. I feel foolish for not making note of the three hits for the downsmash.

You speak the truth Napilopez. As long as Sonic can keep pressure... the match is in his favor. The moment the opponent is just playing their own game and coming at you with smart attacks, you need to figure something out fast.

 

[Tenki]

One thing about Uair: The second hit has much more than decent priority, its amazing. Infac I don't know any aerial coming down for above that outprioritizes a well-spaced Uair.

Also, I'm pretty sure Fair actually does somewhere from 11 to 13 damage when all hits connect.

1) What would be cool is if we had pictures of the individual move parts (u-air hit 1, u-air hit 2) and one of us photoshop the "assumed" attackbox of the move.

2) F-air does 10-14.

Why not add the amount of damage Sonic's smashes do when they are charged up to the max? Even though I guess it's just a constant multiplier, that I assume is the same for all characters. It's still good for reference IMO.

Up-smash: 8 consecutive hits, uncharged does 14 damage, fully charged does 19
F-smash: uncharged does 14 damage, fully charged does 19

The guide mentions that D-smash has 3 different hits, but doesn't mention that they each do different damage. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to be a multi-hit attack, so no matter what you do you'll only take one of the three different damage levels

D-smash:
1st hit: 12 uncharged, 16 fully charged
2nd hit: 9 uncharged, 12 fully charged
3rd hit: 7 uncharged, 10 fully charged

They all have different knockback, too.

I'm kind of against full charged U-smash, since hitting with the initial hit after a certain %, for some reason, makes opponents slide out of the U-smash. That's why things like U-smash's 'semispike' works.

Keep in mind that every half second you charge a smash adds "10%" worth of damage to the knockback (example, if you kill at 120% normally, charging for 1 second lets you kill at 100%), so you can really save alot of damage worth of fighting if you can land some charged smashes.

 

[infomon]

There's nothing wrong with more information. Just tell me what to add and as long as it makes sense I'll put it in. It would be best if you inform me of what needs to be added instead of asking/expecting me to always figure it out myself.

Yeah okay, t'was just my general lack of confidence: "If it's not in the guide, there must be a reason for it, that everyone knows except for me. But I'll quietly bring it up just in case....." hehe

One thing about Uair: The second hit has much more than decent priority, its amazing. Infac I don't know any aerial coming down for above that outprioritizes a well-spaced Uair. The only possible exception might be lucario's Dair, but I'm pretty sure ive outprioritzed that as well.

As far as anyone knows, there's no "aerial priority", it's just that Sonic's hitbox extends a lot farther than his hurtbox during that attack, and few attacks are disjointed enough to reach in and hit him before they get some shoes to the face. Just in case you weren't aware. But the word "priority" might be a reasonable way to describe that phenomenon so *shrug*

Keep the mental pressure on, and then, once an opening is available, STIKE.

I think you misspelled STEAK amirite!?

A sonic fruit? Yummy.

 

[darkNES386]

This guide can be as in-depth as the community wants it to be. I'm going to continue working on it when I can especially now that I really don't have as much time to play Brawl as I would like.

Let me know what you think of the current section I'm working on....

 

[Umby]

Tell these niggas how to play Sonic, please.

 

[darkNES386]

Yay memphischains. Personally every neutral stage is awesome for Sonic. I've become a very big fan of lylat... especially when facing MKs and I'm picking up little things about yoshi's (brawl) that make this stage also very good for Sonic.

I would say we should start with a general idea first about what stage themes are good for Sonic:
1+A definite stage floor -No true bottom of stage
2+Platforms -Lack/no platforms
3+Fall off -Can't fall off stage

1:Sonic can't utilize his groundspeed if there is no "ground" to run across the stage on.
2:The amazing combo abilities and groundspeed of Sonic allows for him to punish opponents on platforms.
3:Sonic can gimp (Kill at low percent) many opponents on stages where KOs can be earned by falling. Later a better analysis can include stages where walk off deaths are plausible (GreenHillZone/Yoshi (pipes)/etc)

Starter
Battlefield 1,2,3
Final Destination1,3,2
Smashville1,2,3
Yoshi's Island1,2,3

You can quickly see how with the Starter stages alone, Sonic is in his own element. Some other strong stages for Sonic include Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium and the travel stages: Delfino and Halberd.

Probably one of the most frustrating SBR legal stages for Sonic would be Rainbow Cruise. Sonic has no ground to work with. His only advantage here is gimping offensively and difficulty of being gimped himself.

I'll add this somewhere, I don't think it's as important as the current section I'm working on.

Anyone have any suggestions for other stage properties I should take into consideration?

 

[Greenstreet]

stage height and width (as in the KO barriers)- when trying to u-air kill on a ridiculously high level like pictochat for example - makes life alot harder for sonic. Also knowing what damage you need to reach before your f-smash will knock them off the side is important, hence stage width.

 

[darkNES386]

Deciding if this is worth/good idea to talk about.
Opponent Fighting Styles
…….

Complimentary Stages
Probably one of the first things you learn about Sonic is that certain stages really allow you to excel at your game, regardless of your opponent. In a tournament, a stage counter-pick by your opponent can easily cripple Sonic. Luckily, most tournament stages have at least some of the stage attributes Sonic mains want to see.

[color=”royalblue”][size=”2”]Stage Attributes:[/size][/color]
Fall-off: Stages where players can be KO’ed down.

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
Walk-off: Stages where there is at least one side where a fighter can simply eliminate themselves by walking off the screen.

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
Platforms: Any stage where there is at least one other “level” players can stand on. Final Destination would be an example of a 0 platform stage. Norfair would be an example of a massive platform stage.[/b]

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
Grounded: This attribute states that a stage has a definite bottom that usually spans a good majority of the level. A stage like New Pork City would not fit this description because it’s just a complete mess.

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
Low Ceilings: Certain stages like Corneria have ridiculously low ceiling boundaries.

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
There are three stage sizes in the custom stage maker for Brawl. While regular stages may not fix into exactly these three categories, we can place them as best as possible

Biggest Size:

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
Medium Size:

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:
_ _ _ _
Smallest Size:

Why we like it:
Why we hate it:

ATs used regularly in tournament scene
The point here is to address the current valid uses for certain ATs and how they help improve Sonic's game. I am speaking from personal experience. If anyone would like something included speak up.

Spin-Shot (Perfectly Timed Jump Cancel of SpinDash>Hop): Probably the most common Sonic specific AT that should regularly be incorporated. This move can cover lots of horizontal distance fast. Wrecklessly using this move when recovering will result in bad situations. Experienced opponents will space appropriately and spike or attack you other ways. You can also get yourself stuck under certain stages. This move uses your second jump so remember that before trying another spin move in the air... even if you wait to touch the ground before releasing it.

You can do aerial dodges for a safer approach against high priority characters or you can unleash an aerial attack. Opponents who shield during a spin dash that is being held often find themselves unshielding as you spin-shot over to them.

Some Sonics have experimented with canceling the momentum with a second spin dash charge either letting themselves touch the ground or releasing it while still in the air. This appears to have more use as a "bail-out" method instead of gaining offensive positioning.

HA Cancel (Cutting down the build up of HA attack): Before this was discovered Sonic's HA attack was pretty useless for everything but probably recovery. This is great because it adds more depth to the move. Your opponent now has two different timings to worry about. Always canceling isn't a good idea and using this move too much is never a good idea regardless of whether or not you cancel it. Refer above to the HA section for more information on how to increase your success with this move.

Spin Fall/ASC Shield Cancel: Remember that anytime Sonic is falling from an aerial spin charge or off of a platform after a SPIN (doesn't matter which special) you can hold shield down to stop and well... shield on landing. Without this you are always at the mercy of however much charge is left on your spin. Now you can stop yourself before you run into a bad situation or to adjust for how your opponent is reacting to your SPIN approach. One basic approach is to short hop in an ASC and shield on landing. You keep doing this as you move forward until finally you choose to release it fully and head towards your opponent. Many opponents will figure out though that they can grab you if you do this too close to them when they're expecting it.

Another time to use this move is after connecting with an ASC and you don't necessarily want to jump cancel or Spin Jump after them. Instead you simply stop right where you are... while your opponent is tumbling above you. Now you've regained your second jump, you can wait for them to fall or go up after them. If they are trying to DI away you can adjust appropriately by walking or running.

Spin Dash Shield Cancel: What a great move. When your opponent is close you can bait them in with this. They're confident they can out prioritize your attack and you suddenly have your shield up and then you're grabbing/counterattacking them.

This move also can also be used when running towards your opponent. It's tempting to shield right away... but remember that you have as long as the backward moving animation to wait. I tend to shield cancel too soon and it really doesn't give my opponent a chance to do something. Patience here is probably a good idea.

Once you're in your shield you can also roll. So run forward>SpinDash (held) > shield> Roll possibly behind your opponent. Usually not the best option if your opponent is going nowhere. This is best used when your opponent is attacking you. This move can be deceptive because Sonic will "scoot" forward if you shield right away from a full sprint making it seem that your roll distance is increased. (Watch it in training on 1/4 if you don't believe me). Just remember that Sonic is vulnerable when in the SpinDash so expecting to not get hit when you get close to your opponent is not a good idea. This will also lead you to believe that you can increase your "grab" range. The amount is so little that it's usually not worth it. You're better off hitting Z to grab... especially if you're worried about pulling a foxtrot instead of a successful grab at close range.

STILL WORKING ON THIS SECTION...

Feedback? Anything at all so that I know if this is a direction I should continue in. I would also be using the above attributes and any other stuff to "rank" which stages are "best" for Sonic.

 

[Tenki]

on the ASC note, you're not really at the mercy of how much charge you have left.

From release (aerial or grounded spin dash/charge): 2 (game) seconds and then you run out of energy.

 

[darkNES386]

on the ASC note, you're not really at the mercy of how much charge you have left.

From release (aerial or grounded spin dash/charge): 2 (game) seconds and then you run out of energy.

Thanks, I'll fix that right now. That was written before you shared the 2 second dealio with us. Which by the way is so obvious now that I feel stupid for not seeing it before.

Does it make sense to name those stage qualities? Anything else major about stages that I'm missing? I'm leaving out 3rd party obsticles cause those are a problem for everyone. Once the various attributes are covered each stage can be individually discussed and more specific stuff can be addressed.

 

[Camalange]

Hey Dnes, maybe you should take into consideration the difficulty of killing with Sonic on certain stages. Like, Sonic kills really easily on Corneria compared to on Final Destination. Also, my stage discussion thread seems to be dieing out, but maybe you could help me out with that, or we can just put some of that info here...not much, but just some summaries of Battlefield and Final Destination.

EDIT IGNORE THIS POST. I only looked at your single post above on stages and just realized you updated the whole thread and already have those listed. My bad...

 

[Napilopez]

Great descriptions of ATs. I know you said you are still working on the AT section, but here's some of my input:

Spinshot:
Its useful if you are using it in the air, because it allows you to gain much more ground much mroe quickly than you could with a standard double jump. I'ms aying this because I see people spinshot alot in the ground and not enough in the air, when oftentimes its more useful to use spinshot in the air than a standard double jump.

Also, you should mention its used in quickly getting past annoying projectiles.

HA:
I would recommend you add the link to Sonicorochi's Sonic guide--Lightspeed--if only because of its explanation of the homing attacks mechanics. After watching it, my accuracy with the homing attack went up drastically because I now had an understanding of when best to use it.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c


About SDSC(Spin Dash Shield Cancel):
It allows you to grab further than both a grab from a shield canceled dash(dash as in running), as well as your standard running grab. This doesn't mean you are gaining more grab range, but rather, similar to a stutter stepped fsmash, Sonic is being "pushed" forward before the grab is done. Now I realize that DNess basically said that you can be punished for it, but it does allow good control for spacing, which brings me to my next point...

If you don't want to grab, SDSCs are great for spacing. An important thing to note about them is that it allows you to cancel a foxtrot. Now this may not seem like a big deal, but often times you might want to shield cancel a dash from short distances, but because you only tapped such a short distance, you ended up doing a foxtrot, and you find you can't shieldcancel the laggy foxtrot animation. I used to find this incredibly annoying until I started to incorporate the SDSC, because it can cancel both a run andd a foxtrot. When I remember to do this, it's a huge part of my game because it makes spacing so much more accurate with Sonic. If you mix it up with standards grabs it can throw ff your opponents.

The reason I like using SDSC from close is that it will often result in a perfect shield for me, and coupled with that boost, it places me in perfect range to attack once I'm close enough. It really depends on your timing, remember to use it from a bit further than you might normally shield because you have that little boost and you CAN be hit out of the Spindash part.

All in all SDSC is a great as a feint and a spacing technique imo.

y

One general suggestion for this is to make that AT section not only of ATs currently in use in the tournament scene, but also techniques that have potential value, but are underused. An example of this is stutterstepping. Did people forget about it?

Heck, I'll even make an entry for it:
I've seen too many occasions where a Sonic could have gotten a kill with an fsmash, but missed it by a couple of virtual inches. This is where stutter stepping comes in. Even the standard stutterstep with the lowest amount of boost adds significant distance to your fsmash, and can make the difference between getting a kill and missing it. Notice I said distance and not range, because you're fsmash will have the range as always, only that you'll be pushed forward as you do it. Anyways, if you remember to incorporate stutterstepping, you might find yourself having an easier time killing(I usually do). I wouldn't recommend the more distancy iterations of the stutterstep, just because they tend to take slightly longer to execute(except for mindgames and stuff XD)

Now, a variation of stutterstepping is the retreating stutterstep(I think thats what its called...). The concept is simple. Your opponent attacks, you perform a retreating SS, physically dodging the attack, and then punch him/her in the face XD. Because as part of the animation Sonic pulls back anyways, this technique can be very effective as well if used right.


Stuff that perhaps should be added in the future is Foxtrotted fsmashes, turnaround animation-cancelling, and once someone figures out how to do it consistently except for phanna(lol), true pivots.

Anyone else agree? lol.

Again, great stuff DNES. Definitely continue on this direction.