A Question of Gaming Ethics

[ryuu seika]

First let me open with some non-smash stuff, then I'll get to the relevent bit:

In many racing games, when a light vehicle with high acceleration turns sharply (drift turns in most cases), it will recieve a small speed boost. This is a perfectly normal part of the game mechanics to balance out the lack of speed those vehicles suffer from. Unfortunately, this part of the game physics has come to be abused in a way known as "snaking" where the player performs lots of tiny turns to effetively travel in a straight line at way above the normal maximum speeds. Has this abuse been stopped? You bet it has! Every competetive scene I know of has outright banned it, though casual play and online games are still wrecked by this simple flaw.

Now in SSB I see a similar thing happening. People cancel jumps with an air dodge to move faster than running without the move restrictions that dashing incurs. Does the tournament scene do anything about this unintentional super dash? No. Not only do they not ban it but they actively encourage players to "wave dash"!

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible while balancing the game with bans has taken it upon them selves to disallow all sorts of thinks which were put into the game intentionally (I'm not saying if this is right or wrong) while actively encouraging the use of flaws in the game mechanics that the developers never intended. The bunch of hypocrits!

I, for one, believe that competetive gaming should take place within the intended restraints, rather than the actual ones, banning all gameplay breaking oversights in the games design.

I understand that the rules aren't going to change overnight but does anyone agree with me?

 

[KrazyKnux]

Snaking is banned? Is this for Mario Kart, or other racing games as well?

That's really lame. If you're too nub to learn it, you won't be winning anyway imo!

Same goes with the tactics in this game.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

nobody agrees with you and you and your argument is stupid. you should just kill yourself.

sorry for being so harsh but im to lazy to bring up arguments as to why

 

[TP]

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible

This is false. The tournament scene wants a game that is fit for competitive play, which was NOT Sakurai's intention at all, so they were forced to do things their own way from the start. Fit for competitive play means that skill is the primary factor in determining the winner of a match. Wavedashing adds to the skill of the game, and banning it would be very messy, since a wavedash goes by so quickly and many things look like it. Furthermore, Sakurai knew about wavedashing while developing the game, although admittedly he did not realize how useful it was.

 

[Winston]

short response:

competitive gaming's philosophy has always been "don't ban if it isn't broken". Broken meaning imbalanced, not "different from the designers' intentions". competitive gaming couldn't care less about designer's intentions.

Wavedashing isn't broken. It also happens to add a lot of depth/fun to the game. No way we'd ever ban it.

 

[Deleted member]

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible while balancing the game with bans has taken it upon them selves to disallow all sorts of thinks which were put into the game intentionally (I'm not saying if this is right or wrong) while actively encouraging the use of flaws in the game mechanics that the developers never intended. The bunch of hypocrits!

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible while balancing the game with bans has taken it upon them selves to disallow all sorts of thinks which were put into the game intentionally

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible

claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible

No.

If you don't like it, play brawl.

 

[arcane9211]

What competitive game communities have banned snaking? I know F-Zero and Mario Kart have actually encouraged it because snaking takes a degree of skill when you'd otherwise just be going down a straightaway or something. The only people I have seen against it are pretty casual players on gamefaqs and the like.

In Melee, most competitive players support this "unintended" style of play because it adds tech skill (and separates people who put time into the game from scrubs), speeds up matches (more fun to watch), and introduces more complicated strategies (faking out opponents, varying landing and attacking speeds, etc.). And really, this introduction of a greater degree of strategy and skill is what competitive gaming is all about.

This happens in EVERY competitive community. Shooters use these strategies to increase reloading speed (it was in call of duty before iirc), GUNZ is full of "advanced techniques," Mario Strikers Charged has countless off-the-wall (literally) trick shots, and many others that I'm too lazy to list. The only time things get banned in (good) competitive communities is when the glitch or technique breaks the core gameplay or makes certain characters or strategies broken.

Anyway, if you couldn't tell, I'm against your mindset in most cases.

 

[ryuu seika]

competitive gaming's philosophy has always been "don't ban if it isn't broken". Broken meaning imbalancedQUOTE]

But broken is not just "imbalanced". Something is also considered broken if it warps strategies and/or the meta game.

I see this as breaking the game mechanics and thus broken. If you lot wish to abuse loopholes in the game then go for it but I am an honest gamer who would never do such a thing.

 

[Geist]

But broken is not just "imbalanced". Something is also considered broken if it warps strategies and/or the meta game.

The metagame changes constantly over time regarless of techniques like wavedashing.

It's one of the pesky side effects of a game with deep mechanics.

 

[joeplicate]

First let me open with some non-smash stuff, then I'll get to the relevent bit:

In many racing games, when a light vehicle with high acceleration turns sharply (drift turns in most cases), it will recieve a small speed boost. This is a perfectly normal part of the game mechanics to balance out the lack of speed those vehicles suffer from. Unfortunately, this part of the game physics has come to be abused in a way known as "snaking" where the player performs lots of tiny turns to effetively travel in a straight line at way above the normal maximum speeds. Has this abuse been stopped? You bet it has! Every competetive scene I know of has outright banned it, though casual play and online games are still wrecked by this simple flaw.

Now in SSB I see a similar thing happening. People cancel jumps with an air dodge to move faster than running without the move restrictions that dashing incurs. Does the tournament scene do anything about this unintentional super dash? No. Not only do they not ban it but they actively encourage players to "wave dash"!

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible while balancing the game with bans has taken it upon them selves to disallow all sorts of thinks which were put into the game intentionally (I'm not saying if this is right or wrong) while actively encouraging the use of flaws in the game mechanics that the developers never intended. The bunch of hypocrits!

I, for one, believe that competetive gaming should take place within the intended restraints, rather than the actual ones, banning all gameplay breaking oversights in the games design.

I understand that the rules aren't going to change overnight but does anyone agree with me?

LOLOlOLoloLOL

 

[Winston]

I see this as breaking the game mechanics and thus broken. If you lot wish to abuse loopholes in the game then go for it but I am an honest gamer who would never do such a thing.

go ahead. but I'm telling you, you're missing out

 

[ArcNatural]

competitive gaming's philosophy has always been "don't ban if it isn't broken". Broken meaning imbalanced

But broken is not just "imbalanced". Something is also considered broken if it warps strategies and/or the meta game.

I see this as breaking the game mechanics and thus broken. If you lot wish to abuse loopholes in the game then go for it but I am an honest gamer who would never do such a thing.

Don't accuse tournament standard gamers to be dishonest. Everyone who plays knows and understands the advanced tactics (or quickly learns once they start entering tournaments).

In short, you are NOT honorable by adhering do YOUR standard of play, in fact, you're being rude to everyone who plays competitively by saying that your the honest one.

If you think they shouldn't be allowed/leave items on/ all stages, that's fine with me. Just don't assume your beliefs of wrong in right to be MORALLY wrong and right.

But broken is not just "imbalanced". Something is also considered broken if it warps strategies and/or the meta game.
I see this as breaking the game mechanics and thus broken.

How do you define "broken"? There are plenty of strategies even without advanced tactics that change the metagame/strategies. Like shieldgrabbing. That changes the game since you now can no longer get right next to someone and do a laggy move.

Your logic needs more clarification. But honestly coming out and accusing the smash community is generally a bad idea in the first place. Especially when you consider yourself right and the MAJORITY of the smash community wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

Your logic needs more clarification. But honestly coming out and accusing the smash community is generally a bad idea in the first place.

Are you kidding me? This is going to become a highly entertaining thread, I can feel it.

I for one am once again making myself some popcorn.

 

[TP]

I see this as breaking the game mechanics and thus broken. If you lot wish to abuse loopholes in the game then go for it but I am an honest gamer who would never do such a thing.

I apologize for giving you a legitimate answer before when you clearly don't deserve one. My bad.

 

[Violence]

This is hilarious.

You made the best analogy ever.

Melee is to Brawl as Mario Kart Double Dash is to Mario Kart Wii.

Since Wavedashing was clearly unintended by Sakurai(even though I believe it was Hal Laboratories who developed the physics system that Sakurai couldn't reproduce in Brawl), it was removed in Brawl.

Since Snaking was clearly unintended in Double Dash, they removed it in Mario Kart Wii.

And there you have it. Don't like snaking? Play Mario Kart Wii. Don't like wavedashing? Go play Brawl.

I really don't see any point in discussing things like ethics and creator intention here. All we want is a fun, competitive, skill-based game. We ban techniques that make the game not fun, not competitive, and not skill-based.

Wavedashing does not do any of these things. We keep it in.

 

[PK-ow!]

Successful Troll is successful.


lolololol banning snaking. This is a good read, you really had me going.

 

[shiva39]

^^

He had me for the first paragraph. "Every competitive community has banned it etc" aroused my suspicions, but I don't play either of those games so I wasn't sure. Then I had a good laugh about cancelling jumps with airdodges and Sakurai's intended game mechanics. In the end I guess he was a more successful troll than most, especially since I wasn't expecting it on Smashboards.

 

[Cosmo!]

First let me open with some non-smash stuff, then I'll get to the relevent bit:

In many racing games, when a light vehicle with high acceleration turns sharply (drift turns in most cases), it will recieve a small speed boost. This is a perfectly normal part of the game mechanics to balance out the lack of speed those vehicles suffer from. Unfortunately, this part of the game physics has come to be abused in a way known as "snaking" where the player performs lots of tiny turns to effetively travel in a straight line at way above the normal maximum speeds. Has this abuse been stopped? You bet it has! Every competetive scene I know of has outright banned it, though casual play and online games are still wrecked by this simple flaw.

Now in SSB I see a similar thing happening. People cancel jumps with an air dodge to move faster than running without the move restrictions that dashing incurs. Does the tournament scene do anything about this unintentional super dash? No. Not only do they not ban it but they actively encourage players to "wave dash"!

The tournaent scene which claims to be following Sakurai's intentions as closely as possible while balancing the game with bans has taken it upon them selves to disallow all sorts of thinks which were put into the game intentionally (I'm not saying if this is right or wrong) while actively encouraging the use of flaws in the game mechanics that the developers never intended. The bunch of hypocrits!

I, for one, believe that competetive gaming should take place within the intended restraints, rather than the actual ones, banning all gameplay breaking oversights in the games design.

I understand that the rules aren't going to change overnight but does anyone agree with me?

scrub .

 

[Tee ay eye]

lololololol

 

[ryuu seika]

Successful Troll is successful.

I was only trying to question why such an obviously unintended technique is abused to this level.

lolololol banning snaking.

If you're telling me that snaking isn't banned then there's something seriously wrong with the world. That crap is broken beyond belief!

I finished the entirety of F-Zero GX on every difficulty and yet I don't even stand a chance against any real opponent. Just because I can't ove my fingers that fast without few minor slip ups doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to play at a competetive level. I have the skill just not the ability to abuse the system.

Don't like snaking? Play Mario Kart Wii.

Screw Mario Kart, I play real racing games. Ones with hover cars and Captain Falcon.

Don't like wavedashing? Go play Brawl.

**** you people and your telling me to play Brawl! How many times do I have to tell you people that I only play Melee because I CAN'T play Brawl?!

 

[rhan]

I finished the entirety of F-Zero GX on every difficulty and yet I don't even stand a chance against any real opponent. Just because I can't ove my fingers that fast without few minor slip ups doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to play at a competetive level. I have the skill just not the ability to abuse the system.

Congratulations. You're garbage. If you don't have the ability to do something then you lack the skill too.

**** you people and your telling me to play Brawl! How many times do I have to tell you people that I only play Melee because I CAN'T play Brawl?!

You're complaining about something that cannot be helped. If you DON'T like something in Melee then MOVE on to Brawl. LEARN that game instead of wasting, not only your time, but our time as well dealing with your pathetic excuses.

Srs. No johns. You have choices. Make moves.

 

[Djent]

Now, maybe I'm missing something because I don't attend tournaments (well, until tomorrow ), but I just have to step in.

I finished the entirety of F-Zero GX on every difficulty and yet I don't even stand a chance against any real opponent. Just because I can't ove my fingers that fast without few minor slip ups doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to play at a competetive level. I have the skill just not the ability to abuse the system.

Really dude? You have the skill, but not the ability? How are they even different? And if it's too hard for even a seasoned player, then it must take A LOT OF SKILL. Which means it's GOOD for competitive play.

**** you people and your telling me to play Brawl! How many times do I have to tell you people that I only play Melee because I CAN'T play Brawl?!

So because you can't play Brawl and can't wavedash, you believe you can enforce your will on an entire community that can do both things? Why do you, not the game itself, get to decide the learning curve of Melee? That's the only "unfair" thing worth discussing.

Sorry to be such a ****, but geez...this thread shouldn't even exist.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Thread shouldn't exist for one, and two, there are a ton of techniques in fighting games that people just don't know of. Does that mean it's wrong?

For instance....most people that claim to know how to okay Tekken don't know that movement is the most important aspect of the game. Furthermore....most people don't know how to 'Wavedash' 'Electric sidesteo' 'Korean backdash' or 'EWGF'. Then comes the okie....you can't handle that....you're screwed. Afterwards comes the PROPER placement of launchers and the combos and stuff. It's a big reason why Korea looks down greatly on our Tekken community. They've also mentioned it on stream...we need to step it up.

Are Korea and Japan cheating for having a better grasp of the game? Um...no. Granted scrubs will say those that do use these tools are cheating, and they aren't playing Tekken the way it was supposed to be. You go ahead and think that, but keep it to yourself. You won't be winning money that way unless you start throwing tournaments with these banned techniques. Granted...then you'd have to learn how to do them. Because people won't know what they are and you'd have to show them. THEN you'd have to hope they still want to play without them after understanding how the pro players and the BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD play using these techniques.

In the off chance that you're not trolling....chew on that for a minute. Oh...and if you think that people who know advanced techniques still can't win without them. You're sadly mistaken.They still understand the game and it's basic core elements. They also think when they play. Dash dancing and mind games will throw an opponent off track. Also waiting for someone to do an unsafe move....and punishing. Most people who are scrubs do it a LOT.

 

[X1-12]

I CAN'T play Brawl!

the fact you don't like wavedashing makes me think you can't play melee either

 

[Geist]

**** you people and your telling me to play Brawl! How many times do I have to tell you people that I only play Melee because I CAN'T play Brawl?!

 

[Sion]

lololololol

lololololol

 

[Glöwworm]

i have a feeling this thread is going to be part of the tourney*** page on encyclopedia dramatica

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

if we banned wavedashing the game would be even more technical since pivoting would become much more important.

 

[X1-12]

and fox/falco would drop 10 places on the tier list

 

[Sox]

play to win, dude. If WDing helps you win, do it. If snaking helps you win, do it. Why not win?

 

[Skler]

Guys, I'm really good at soccer but I can't run for ****. You need to understand. I'm really good at soccer. It's unbelievable. If people weren't always running around I could beat them like 100% of the time.


Running should be banned.

 

[firelord767]

Guys, I'm really good at soccer but I can't run for ****. You need to understand. I'm really good at soccer. It's unbelievable. If people weren't always running around I could beat them like 100% of the time.


Running should be banned.

Nah, let's keep running and ban kicking.

C'mon dude, if you can't wavedash, here's an idea: find a way around it. I'm sure that there must be some way to play without moving fast. I dunno, what does that big green button do again? Oh yeah, it attacks, right? While they wavedash away from an attack, try to get better positioning to fight them, maybe. There are other ways to play. In said racing games with Captain Falcon, some cars need to be fast by snaking. Others, of course, do not. They are fast in their own right and can still beat out snakers with raw talent. Right?

 

[ryuu seika]

Really dude? You have the skill, but not the ability?

What I'm saying is, I have the skill to beat just about everyone at F-Zero GX on a level playing field, it's just once people start snaking there is nothing I can do.

If you want to put it that way, I have both the skill and the ability to play the game but I lack any ability and whatever skill may be required to "snake".

So because you can't play Brawl and can't wavedash, you believe you can enforce your will on an entire community that can do both things?

Excuse me but when did this become about my ability or lack thereof in regards to wave dashing? I can do it and I will teach my friends how to do it so that I can learn the ways round it. It's not as if it's the overpowering advantage that snaking is.
Just because I am morally against something does not mean I could not stoop to your level if I so chose.

there are a ton of techniques in fighting games that people just don't know of. Does that mean it's wrong?

I bought the game without a manual. Does that mean it was unfair of my opponents to air dodge against me? Of course not.
This isn't about player knowledge, this is about game flaw abuse. Air dodging is a perfectly normal and intentional part of the game, it's abuse is not.

the fact you don't like wavedashing makes me think you can't play melee either

I don't thinkyou understand my problem with Brawl. It's not so much that I fail at it but that my Wii can't read it and Nintendo won't take the useless thing back. I've not even been given the chance to fail at it, that's what pisses me off so much about being told to play brawl.

play to win, dude. If WDing helps you win, do it. If snaking helps you win, do it. Why not win?

Pardon me for being fussy but I'd like to win by fair means. If such a goal is not attainable, then not winning would be my second option.

Guys, I'm really good at soccer but I can't run for ****. You need to understand. I'm really good at soccer. It's unbelievable. If people weren't always running around I could beat them like 100% of the time.
Running should be banned.

How is running not an intentional part of the game rules? Now diving, that might be ban worthy but running?

There are other ways to play. In said racing games with Captain Falcon, some cars need to be fast by snaking. Others, of course, do not. They are fast in their own right and can still beat out snakers with raw talent. Right?

Have you seen the speed of snaking? When people can beat the story mode missions in under half my time, that's when I give up.

 

[Djent]

What I'm saying is, I have the skill to beat just about everyone at F-Zero GX on a level playing field, it's just once people start snaking there is nothing I can do.

If you want to put it that way, I have both the skill and the ability to play the game but I lack any ability and whatever skill may be required to "snake".

There's the problem; you lack a skill your opponent has. If they've put in the time to master a valuable skill that you haven't, why don't they deserve the win? Just because the developer didn't intend for that skill to be necessary? I think that's kind of silly, honestly. If you're going to ban a strategy because it wasn't intended, then a game can never grow any deeper than the developer's vision. And to a player, being constrained to existing intended strategies is kind of boring. But whatever, I'm probably not going to convince you of this, so I'm done after this post.

Excuse me but when did this become about my ability or lack thereof in regards to wave dashing? I can do it and I will teach my friends how to do it so that I can learn the ways round it. It's not as if it's the overpowering advantage that snaking is.
Just because I am morally against something does not mean I could not stoop to your level if I so chose.

If you can do it too and it's not an overpowering advantage, then I guess there's no need to ban it. I'd also like to add that while you're working around the wavedash instead of complaining about it, you're actually thinking like a pro.

 

[Violence]

I think Mew2King had a good quote for this.

I'm sorry, sir, could you repeat that? I'm afraid that all I can hear right now are Johns.



You know, unlike Snaking, you don't have to wavedash to win at Melee.

Aniki didn't wavedash at all, and became one of the best Japanese players.

Can't wavedash? Ok. I'm pretty the ranked players in my area can beat me without wavedashing pretty easily.

You can go ahead and win without using it.

 

[Geist]

lol @ morals in video games.
All my previous doubts that he was trolling are now gone.

 

[PK-ow!]

It's really funny because it doesn't even make sense to propose that you could ban snaking.

From what I understand of the technique, there is no discrete way of defining the maneuver. There is nothing to ban. It's a consequence of steering. Looks like we'll have to make players take their course curves straight-on like MEN-

no, no, I can't even do this. It's too funny.

Successful Troll is successful. Very successful. Four thumbs up, man.

 

[Vyse]

Roland Barthes once posited that the death of the author is necessary for the birth of the reader.
That is to say, Sakurai's intentions became irrelevant once the game left his hands.

8/10 - Would read again.