A public stance on custom moves.

[Raziek]

Yeah no, **** THAT.

Riot if it's banned at Apex. Transfer of customs is so painless any of those claims are absolute nonsense.

This 'clear circle' **** is utterly ridiculous grounds to cut that much depth.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Yeah no, **** THAT.

Riot if it's banned at Apex. Transfer of customs is so painless any of those claims are absolute nonsense.

This 'clear circle' **** is utterly ridiculous grounds to cut that much depth.

Fortunately, the person these words came from is with us here in the backroom, and should be able to discuss with us further, despite the low likelihood of us being able to change his mind.

 

[Overswarm]

East Coast has and continues to be a place to be ignored for anything related to ruleset discussion.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

East Coast has and continues to be a place to be ignored for anything related to ruleset discussion.

Though not really ignorable...they have the highest concentration of players in the whole of the states.

 

[Overswarm]

Though not really ignorable...they have the highest concentration of players in the whole of the states.

So? A lazy TO banning custom moves because they can't run an event with something new doesn't become more acceptable due to population density.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

So? A lazy TO banning custom moves because they can't run an event with something new doesn't become more acceptable due to population density.

It means that what they do tends to hold considerably more weight in what actually ends up happening in reality, logical or otherwise. The idea should be to convince those that have the power to make the change to do so. Sitting in an armchair and scoffing at the other 75% you aren't a part of isn't going to promote that 75% to change.

We need Keitaro in here, in all honesty, for a back & forth to even begin. Like it or not, what Apex does (as Smash 4's first major tournament) could set the groundwork for what all tournaments in the future do. There's always one of my earlier recommendations...splitting completely from the "Melee" community but we all realize both how unlikely and unreasonable that is.

It's unfortunate, but stage lists, custom moves, and all of those things are going to get dictated by the majority here. The east coast of the US is the majority. I personally think its unfortunate but there's really nothing I, in a different country, can really do about it but say pointy sharp words at the people who make those decisions, but that doesn't really get you anywhere in business either.

I just think it's ironic that the majority of this backroom seemed overly in favor of custom moves, and even the general poll of the entire board was in favor of custom moves for tournament legality, and yet we have a short couple of paragraphs apparently dictating the entire future of the concept for us by one person, with what is likely very poor reasoning.

Essentially, I'm trying to think about what we can do to make things happen, not how to win the logic debate.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

smash 4 meta will become this:

fools ban custom moves completely with excuses as strong as a wet cardboard box

meta gets dominated by 2-4 characters

we have 4 "official" votes of whether to have custom moves on or off

we leave them off

then 5 years down the track the game dies because stale meta

SOUNDS LIKE A CERTAIN OTHER GAME I KNOW HMMMMMMMMM (hint: its brawl and meta knight for those wondering)

 

[Raziek]

Croi and I hosted a small launch tournament yesterday, and of the players in attendance, 75% used at least 1 custom move.

Yes (9)
Drake (Rosa/ROB)
Raziek (Robin)
Aedre (Shulk)
Lamb (Mii fighter)
Hacksorus (Jiggs)
FiXiT (Mario)
Quote (Ganon)
Croi (Lucario)
Curly (Mega Man)

No (3)
Shaft (Diddy)
GM171 (Peach)
Jash (Bowser Jr)

Of The 3 players who did not:
One plays Diddy, who arguably doesn't need them at all.
The other 2 are Project M players who haven't put much time into experimenting with them yet, but have tried them on the side.

I have other statistics regarding stage choices & pick/banrates, but I still have to compile all that after work, so we probably won't see those until late tonight or some time tomorrow.

Let's tag @Keitaro while we're at it.

As much as it sucks, you have IMMENSE sway over the future of customs, as an East Coast TO, because people can and will blindly sheep you. If the world sheeps the ruleset of Apex & its Circuits, we lose an IMMENSE amount of valuable content that would otherwise better this game.

 

[Overswarm]

Due to the possibility of stealing memory cards from nintendo gamecubes, we've decided to only use stages and characters unlocked at the start. Monitoring gamecube memory cards and dealing with the potential theft would be a huge undertaking by the TOs and one we aren't willing to commit to.

Also, due to the possibility of someone syncing a Wii U gamepad to any Wii U and then erasing all of that console's data, we've decided not to run Smash 4.

It also takes a really, really long time to bring in TVs and set them up and sometimes you need powerstrips. We can't guarantee the number of TVs, so to ensure tournaments run smoothly we will be playing only Smash 4 3DS. You must supply your own system. If the battery runs out we cannot guarantee an outlet, so you will be eliminated from the tournament if your battery runs dry.

East Coast.

 

[Overswarm]

Raziek, do you know how the customs are saved onto the Wii U when they are transferred? If it's onto an SD card as a separate file we might be able to create presets and just host it online for d/l.

 

[Raziek]

Raziek, do you know how the customs are saved onto the Wii U when they are transferred? If it's onto an SD card as a separate file we might be able to create presets and just host it online for d/l.

I will look into it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

KTAR 11 apparently ran well

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Due to the possibility of stealing memory cards from nintendo gamecubes, we've decided to only use stages and characters unlocked at the start. Monitoring gamecube memory cards and dealing with the potential theft would be a huge undertaking by the TOs and one we aren't willing to commit to.

Also, due to the possibility of someone syncing a Wii U gamepad to any Wii U and then erasing all of that console's data, we've decided not to run Smash 4.

It also takes a really, really long time to bring in TVs and set them up and sometimes you need powerstrips. We can't guarantee the number of TVs, so to ensure tournaments run smoothly we will be playing only Smash 4 3DS. You must supply your own system. If the battery runs out we cannot guarantee an outlet, so you will be eliminated from the tournament if your battery runs dry.

East Coast.

I mostly agree with this sentiment conceptually.

It doesn't seem like any balancing act is being attempted for Smash 4 in this regard. Like Smash 4 is the stepchild and Melee gets the extra effort, but at the same time many people are pissed that apparently KATAR didn't show any Melee.

 

[Overswarm]

People get all worked up because we're on the same forum, but Melee is its own game. Most of the Melee players that are vocal are cancerous for other games -- including Project Melee.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Stop hosting Smash 4 with other games. They are incompatible. PM and Melee are already having a rift between them that's going to get wider. Melee needs to host their own events and Smash 4 needs to host their own events.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

About customs being patched and stuff. charuzard's dragon Rush got nerfed from 15% to 11%.

The unlocking part is bull, it's really easy and simple.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok I read everything in that and elsewhere.

The clear button exploit doesn't work on the WiiU because it shows very clearly if a preset has something loaded in there. So you can't cheat in this like it potentially possible in the 3DS. So this point is moot and doesn't work unless no one is watching, gl doing this at a large tournament. Plus if people are going to make room for their own sets they need to delete these ones and if they see equipment on, instant DQ. It's much harder to actually cheat this way than on the 3DS.

The unlocking on is a legitimate one for early tournaments.

Would people say it is reasonable to unlock them all in 2 months times? Lets assume some people can only play the game and work on it so much, like an hour or two a day.

Is this reasonable? For a day 2 tournament like this weekend of course not. Not everyone owns a 3DS.

2 or 3 months down the line? I would assume this is simple enough and given I got 50ish or so of the 350ish of day 3 of owning the game I'm leaning on no to this not really being an issue unless each WiiU is owned by APEX only vs one ones people brought in.

 

[Overswarm]

"Everyone is responsible for their own custom moves. You should have or have access to a 3DS with your desired movesets as we cannot guarantee they are all unlocked on each individual Wii U that comes into play.

When loading custom moves, please name them "1321", "1121", "3331", etc., with the numbers equating to the move themselves. This will allow others to know the movesets listed with ease."

At local tournaments I'm going to just load up 4 or 5 common presets for every character on every Wii U based off of what the character boards say. I'm missing a few on 3DS still (like, 10... -_-;, but hopefully shouldn't take too long. Seems easier to get them on the Wii U version.

 

[Overswarm]

I'd also like to add that it's difficult to unlock ALL custom moves but incredibly easy to unlock all the moves for an individual character. If a player wants a certain moveset, they can tell a TO and have it created for that event.

 

[Raziek]

I'd also like to add that it's difficult to unlock ALL custom moves but incredibly easy to unlock all the moves for an individual character. If a player wants a certain moveset, they can tell a TO and have it created for that event.

That's what I've been doing for our events too. If someone wants one in advance I just unlock it on my 3DS and then can transfer the profile to any set-up at the event.

 

[Overswarm]

hey Raziek, you know what's awesome?


being able to easily solve issues that east coast TOs consider insurmountable

makes me feel smart

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Having preloaded builds is still a good alternative, though if possible I don't thinking unlocking them all on a WiiU is that hard given how fast I am actually doing it myself.

Speeds up needing to set stuff up instead of needing everyone to have a 3DS or a 3DS user to do it.

 

[Overswarm]

By the time mewtwo is released, people are gonna be like "oh yeah, unlocking customs".

What are you using to unlock them? I have been doing "master orders" and getting them quickly. Hate getting equipment though XD

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Classic and Master Orders mostly.

Classic is thankfully giving me a hell of a lot more than usual since it give a visual cue some fighters are carrying custom equipment.

 

[Raziek]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

We should be looking to either support this or get something similar going ourselves, I feel.

And @Keitaro should actually post in here.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

We should be looking to either support this or get something similar going ourselves, I feel.

And @Keitaro should actually post in here.

Think he may have went in to hiding after the KATAR fiasco.

Just wanted to restate that I support any and all motions to make custom moves a primary function of competitive Smash 4. I believe it to be absolutely essential and imperative to separating it as a game from its predecessors even further. It's amazing for depth, creates tons more interesting match up discussion, and is likely way more fun. I compare it similarly to coming up against your same class in an arena match in an MMO or MOBA using a different build/items/spec. That kind of depth and ability to control the potential of your character is absolutely conducive to an expressive, deep, meta.

 

[Shaya]

I think that thread kinda covers all of what we wanted to push at the moment. Plans for this room in general need to be made/come under way soon.

 

[Overswarm]

I think the idea of having "common presets" loaded by TOs is a good one. I had the same idea but have no way of knowing what is "common". I think this would be a good @ Shaya project, adding sticky threads to each character discussion forum with some sort of poll or something.

Having top 4 for one character and top 6 for another isn't too crazy and would make tournaments much easier. Especially if we adopted the 1232 naming schema.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I actually have quite a few qualms with the "common presets" plan. Keep in mind that I desparately want customs legal on the map in all forms.

1. There is a strong chance that high tier players will have more than just a single set of customs mastered, because it's almost inevitable that we will deal with the issue of custom move counter-picking between matches. Some moves will work better in some match-ups, I think we can all see that this is bound to be true. Singling out "common" presets essentially puts us right at square one, with everybody using a single, predefined custom loadout, essentially taking away the actual depth of custom moves. Now you're just preparing to fight a character with consistent x custom moves rather than that character with an adaptive moveset catered to that players playstyle, which is in essence the whole point of custom moves to begin with. This is now a display of what we call the illusion of choice. If any one single choice is clear and cut a better choice than the other (or rather, the only choice available in this case) then it's not really a choice, is it?

2. That being said, this would be worthless to mention if I didn't have some kind of alternative plan to address my concern. I simply feel the preparation should be put in to transferring all the customs of the characters beforehand. I see a lot of talk about tournament preparation hell and organization hell, but people need to start buckling up if they want Smash on the map professionally for as long as is possible. Tournaments needs strong coordinating skills and proper, prior planning. Each tournament needs care and thought put in to its planning, and that includes ironing out systems with all custom moves available.

There's pretty much no point in allowing customs if everyone is forced into using the same custom set, I hope you can see that. If the option to modify the character in a unique method is not available, then the purpose is then defeated.

I understand that many customs can be seen as ineffective, as well, but who's to say it lacks a purpose in some matchup, somewhere in the game. We just can't predict that. That's why we should make the effort to ensure that the full range of options is available.

 

[Shaya]

My position on customs is having optimal character power levels. Which in theory (and likely practise) there will be.
I didn't believe that there would be a rich counterpicking game introduced by them, our counterpicking systems are already a complete mess that is the root of all ruleset evil.

I can see match up variations in custom specials being worthwhile (at this stage, Marth's dash assault move is essential for limiting Rosalina, while default shield breaker is providing better mileage in most match ups imo). But otherwise this is about getting custom specials into the game, and right now they look like they won't be, and in my mind this is the issue.

If custom specials were to be focused on for counterpicking another's specials, then I'd almost rather them be banned tbh.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

My position on customs is having optimal character power levels. Which in theory (and likely practise) there will be.
I didn't believe that there would be a rich counterpicking game introduced by them, our counterpicking systems are already a complete mess that is the root of all ruleset evil.

I can see match up variations in custom specials being worthwhile (at this stage, Marth's dash assault move is essential for limiting Rosalina, while default shield breaker is providing better mileage in most match ups imo). But otherwise this is about getting custom specials into the game, and right now they look like they won't be, and in my mind this is the issue.

If custom specials were to be focused on for counterpicking another's specials, then I'd almost rather them be banned tbh.

So your only interest in customs is completely on optimizing each character to a specific set of customs that are superior than all other possible combinations?

Can't you see though that this defeats the entire purpose of what custom moves are intended for? To create a versatile meta with unique options?

Can you also see that this is basically impossible as the customs aren't all made in a tier-based way IE this one is better than this one, and this one is better than that one. They are meant to diversify your options. Some are better for some situations, others for others. You're searching for optimization where there may be none, and in such a search custom moves may already be long left in the dirt. I think this is a really foolish approach to custom moves and not only goes against their purpose but is counter-productive to their fight to being legal.

If the full range of custom moves are not available to pick from, I swing to actually being against them. At very least, indifferent.

 

[Overswarm]

People have already unlocked all the custom moves on Wii U. Apparently classic and master orders are pretty fast ways to do it playing casually for a week.

I've heard rumors of people not getting any custom moves at all by playing master/crazy orders if they play it multiple times in a row, then playing something else and suddenly get a bunch. Anyone have any evidence of this happening to them? It may be that Sakurai actually punishes people for farming in one place >_>

 

[Overswarm]

"Custom moves are allowed, but you are not guaranteed to have your setup loaded on a Wii U. You are responsible for having access to a 3DS with your custom moveset unlocked.
As not everyone may have a 3DS of their own, if you have a specific loadout, it is your responsibility to notify the TO in the tournament thread with the character name and the moveset(s) you want listed as "1232", with the numbers referring to the custom move number. We will do our best to accommodate your request."

Anyone have any issues with this phrasing?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

"Custom moves are allowed, but you are not guaranteed to have your setup loaded on a Wii U. You are responsible for having access to a 3DS with your custom moveset unlocked.
As not everyone may have a 3DS of their own, if you have a specific loadout, it is your responsibility to notify the TO in the tournament thread with the character name and the moveset(s) you want listed as "1232", with the numbers referring to the custom move number. We will do our best to accommodate your request."

Anyone have any issues with this phrasing?

In concern to 3DS-less folks, I see a huge potential for catastrophic organization failures ("Wah Wah, you didn't put the moves I asked for in yet you did for him"), based on the concept of going by requests or submission.

Aside from that, you generally seem to be well written most of the time so I'm not sure what sort of guidance you'd need from us on writing up a directive