A public stance on custom moves.

[Shaya]

It's dangerous but likely needs to be done.
Japan seem to be currently avoiding custom moves in tournament play, and that has widespread impacts, most notably the Apex series.

At nearly all levels, most players are keen and excited about custom moves. The sample of two weeks ago of 88% support is likely still similar, even with False and Nairo matches bouncing around the boards and facebook.

Logistics within tournaments aside, the solution is to dispel ignorance. An encompassing list of all character's custom specials are yet to exist, the standard property changes to moves are also unknown but throughout most characters are relatively constant. We're yet to see moves which break the game, but it's fair to state some may pose problems (stalling / buggy reactions).

Finding purpose for this room has been a bit of a struggle, I hate to use the term politics but its applicable, albeit not the full issue. Something as large and game changing as this needs to be explored and resources need to be put into it, until now I struggled to see what we could do in here that couldn't be done publicly and I was also a very irked by us stepping into rulesets in any capacity (especially early on).

While I think we may still choose to avoid saying "Customs should be legal", how a TO augments custom specials within their events is something we can create guidelines for.

We're yet to do any public recruitment for the BR, but I want this project to be known to the public and I also want to recruit people who are interested in earnest. This needn't happen back here either, there's a new subforum for the competitive known as the Academy, which we plan to be the "Smash Lab" modern equivalent, but that will still mean public reactions/posts (although I'd be omega moderator maximus on such a thing).

So what do we want:
1. How to implement Custom movesets into your tournament: Revising the Set flowchart, counterpicking rules/adjustments.
1a. Dealing with Miis
2. A list of all specials in the game, with their descriptions, plus analysis.
3. Start finding a new generation of try hards and bringing them into "this" environment to be indoctrinated.
4. Optimal character "loads" (Emblem Lord is using the term and I don't mind it, but there may be a better term) for characters; giving a bit more merit to us doing character discussion threads. As in "this is the custom specials you want; you may use these under certain circumstances".

 

[Shaya]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_customization#List_of_custom_specials

we have this, but this is horrendously formatted. Does save us some time though.

 

[Overswarm]

Custom moves enhance Smash in every conceivable way in terms of gameplay. The only disadvantage that applies is logistics, and it's yet to be determined if this is a true issue.

To be frank, I don't care in the slightest what Japan does or what Apex does. If Apex started running all items events and Japan started playing "random only" it wouldn't alter what should be done. No individual TO, region, or even Sakurai dictates what is the best way to play a game. If Japan wants to play FD only Greninja dittos all day they can have a blast, but we'll see those guys maybe 5 times within Smash 4's lifetime and a grand total of 0 times within Smash 3DS' solo lifetime. They are irrelevant and their community is dwarfed by the Midwest East and we are a relatively small region.

I'm doing a customs tournament this Saturday and will have information on how they work in venue. So far from all the TOs I have talked to I have only heard positive responses; no negatives in the slightest. I imagine this won't be the case as time goes on and efficiency and surprise factor in move choices comes into play.

1. How to implement Custom movesets into your tournament: Revising the Set flowchart, counterpicking rules/adjustments.

This is something I have some difficulty with. Currently I am doing:

-Loser picks stage
-Winner picks character + loadout
-If asked, players must indicate their custom moveset
-Loser picks character + loadout
-If asked, players must indicate their custom moveset

No one may rework custom movesets during a set and must use pre-made loadouts.

Making loadouts in the middle of a set isn't that big of an issue, in all actuality. I've tested it a few times, it takes longer to join a game than it does to create custom moves. With the Wii U it will likely take even less time. I just add that in as incentive for people to make their loadouts in advance.

The reason I say "if asked" is so that if a player is surprised and feels slighted due to their ignorance of custom moves, they have put themselves in that position and are then forced to take ownership of that decision.

Anticipated complaints are "I didn't know you had that move!" or "I don't know what that does!", both of which are complaints from ignorance. We don't give mulligans to people who don't know about falling through Castle Siege, we don't let people have a warm up match if they have never played a matchup, and we don't let people watch youtube videos of their opponents prior to their set. Smash is game where the onus of knowledge is on the player, custom moves changes little in this regard except that it can be hidden -- simply asking fixes that.

1a. Dealing with Miis

There's nothing to deal with when it comes to Miis. "All Miis must be created prior to the set start" and "If asked, players must indicate their custom moveset". /done

The Mii moveset is incredibly easy to learn, it takes maybe two minutes to learn how each of their specials function. Most of them are similar.

We do need a post explaining the differences to the Miis based on Mii stats, but the differences are exceptionally minor. I believe Zipzo is working on this?

2. A list of all specials in the game, with their descriptions, plus analysis.

Ninjalink has quite a few videos on this. I suggest gyfcats added directly to a forum post.

3. Start finding a new generation of try hards and bringing them into "this" environment to be indoctrinated.

Just follow tournament results and contributions from various regions. Players and TOs always have different views that clash, granting insight into what both "sides" would like.

4. Optimal character "loads" (Emblem Lord is using the term and I don't mind it, but there may be a better term) for characters; giving a bit more merit to us doing character discussion threads. As in "this is the custom specials you want; you may use these under certain circumstances".

Irrelevant to the SBR's function, I'd imagine, other than data collecting. It might be more prudent to make this a social exercise rather than a technical one. Any responses you get will be filled with maybes, mights, sometimes, and pure conjecture. Very few know anything about the game at this point and even less know enough to know they don't know that much. Any attempt at making "optimal character loads" at this point will be based off of less than 6 hours of matchup knowledge. If it is obvious enough to be right with such little time behind it, it is obvious enough for others to find it on their own.

Implementing surveys to the public along the lines of "what is your favorite (character)'s (special type)" will likely serve a more immediate purpose as it indicates both popularity and the fact that responses are opinion and tentative to real results.

 

[iRJi]

Just to quickly note: Ninjalink made a video with every single moveset explained with demos.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah I've seen those and they're helpful. He really does go in depth with quite a few characters to show things as well. But none are explored on a tournament/competitive level though.

 

[Shaya]

Also the issue of individual custom moves being banned / the entirety of custom specials being banned.

Earlier on, I'm pretty sure nearly everyone was on the "well it'll be too complicated if we have to ban specials" boat, but I'm now ideologically opposed. I'd much rather keep the depth added to the game for a majority of the cast and take away problematic singular instances, if they exist. I'd be willing to consider it feasible that any special could fall under this [now undefined] broken category, including defaults.

Imagine for a second if MK had 3 tornados in Brawl, 3 dimension capes, and 3 shuttle loops. Now let's say the two custom dimension capes cannot be extended infinitely while the default can? I don't know why we wouldn't limit stalling specials no matter whether they're default or not.
Could we have limited/nerfed MK in a more specific/enforceable way by forcing an alternative tornado? Completely bizarre to think we'd ever do it on that basis, but seeing as we went with ledge grab limits that nerfed "everyone", why not?

G&W+Pikachu in Smash 4 doubles; can it be rectified with a ban to a specific special?
Pika's two customs thunders are noticeably less effective at this tactic: one doesn't have a thunder cloud at all [just a self hitbox; probably still gives full bucket] while the other has the thunder cloud much higher than the default and hence reaches the ground/pikachu slower, and the most damage is near the top of the cloud.
Unfortunately there'd be no reason to limit Pika's thunder in any other doubles scenario though ;\

 

[iRJi]

Yeah I've seen those and they're helpful. He really does go in depth with quite a few characters to show things as well. But none are explored on a tournament/competitive level though.

That's not exactly true. Nj/NY tournaments are Custom allowed. we have been testing them for over a month now.

Also the issue of individual custom moves being banned / the entirety of custom specials being banned.

Earlier on, I'm pretty sure nearly everyone was on the "well it'll be too complicated if we have to ban specials" boat, but I'm now ideologically opposed. I'd much rather keep the depth added to the game for a majority of the cast and take away problematic singular instances, if they exist. I'd be willing to consider it feasible that any special could fall under this [now undefined] broken category, including defaults.

Imagine for a second if MK had 3 tornados in Brawl, 3 dimension capes, and 3 shuttle loops. Now let's say the two custom dimension capes cannot be extended infinitely while the default can? I don't know why we wouldn't limit stalling specials no matter whether they're default or not.
Could we have limited/nerfed MK in a more specific/enforceable way by forcing an alternative tornado? Completely bizarre to think we'd ever do it on that basis, but seeing as we went with ledge grab limits that nerfed "everyone", why not?

G&W+Pikachu in Smash 4 doubles; can it be rectified with a ban to a specific special?
Pika's two customs thunders are noticeably less effective at this tactic: one doesn't have a thunder cloud at all [just a self hitbox; probably still gives full bucket] while the other has the thunder cloud much higher than the default and hence reaches the ground/pikachu slower, and the most damage is near the top of the cloud.
Unfortunately there'd be no reason to limit Pika's thunder in any other doubles scenario though ;\

In terms of the Gw/Pikachu team combination, I am actually doing a write up on that for back here. I wanted to ask for a series of test to see if its the team combination, or GW himself that needs to be looked at. It wasn't finished, so I didn't post it.

The issue with the LGL was that it was out round about option to not eliminate the character completely. Only 1 character realistically could reach the limit within a suitable time frame, where the others would have to intentionally attempt to reach that limit for majority of the game (outside of 2-3 characters) Ledge mechanics in Brawl were extreme as well, where it significantly rewarded the player for doing so in a lot of situations. Limited all character wasn't such a stretch.

Moving from that point though, since Brawl is in the past and we can only grow from it, banning character moves could get tricky if its the default moveset.

Example: Metaknight happens to have infinite dimension came in Smash 4 as his default move. Since we allow custom moves, we then ban his default move since he can use up to 3 other ones. After 10 months, we end up banning custom moves because after testing, we determine that majority of the moves take away potential play from the game. Where does this leave Mk's default move that we deemed to broken for play? We could allow MK to have custom moves, but then there will be the argument that other characters should have access to custom moves because MK does as well.

This leaves a mess. It's one thing to eliminate some custom moves, since it's a modification from the normal stanza of the game, but to eliminate characters default moves gets touchy.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, that's the problem in itself. But how quickly can we come to the conclusion we'd never want to ban all custom specials so as to consider their defaults apart of the mix?

I was going to blurb about G&W specials too, where his weaker bucket is likely not as centralising due to being a weaker attack and taking less charges. This could help make him "fair" across the board. However, other than specific characters, is G&W's [default] bucket too strong?

 

[Overswarm]

We haven't even seen G&W and Pika be an overcentralizing force yet. Looking scary and being simple isn't a bannable offense, nor is being "the best". We'll have a team that is "the best", but until it becomes THE team to play it shouldn't be banned.

 

[Shaya]

How much more obvious could I make it that I'm trying to be abstract OS :<

 

[Ishiey]

Link to NL's vids btw: http://www.youtube.com/user/mariorqs/videos

It's late and I'm lazy, but so far I agree with OS and RJ's points. For now we should encourage experimentation, and perhaps throw in a guide on banning? And by that, I mean things like "If you think a custom move is too good, you can ban the custom move instead of banning all customs / banning the character to keep the diversity of options high, and this is a good thing because ______". Just, general stuff like that.

 

[Overswarm]

How much more obvious could I make it that I'm trying to be abstract OS :<

Using a hypothetical situation rather than one at a boiling point.

The smash community as a whole does not work on logic. Multiple players became upset when they found I wasn't banning G&W/Pikachu at my event. Some even got visibly upset. None of them had ever played the team before. Kel and I played them once on our opponent's CP and it was met with disgust -- they didn't even notice that they did better against our G&W/Pika than our Megaman/Bowser. You'd be surprised at how much simply stating "I wonder if we need to ban G&W/Pika" translates directly to "we need to ban G&W/Pika", even for people back here.

It's late and I'm lazy, but so far I agree with OS and RJ's points. For now we should encourage experimentation, and perhaps throw in a guide on banning? And by that, I mean things like "If you think a custom move is too good, you can ban the custom move instead of banning all customs / banning the character to keep the diversity of options high, and this is a good thing because ______". Just, general stuff like that.

I'd take the opposite approach.

"If you think a custom move is too good.... don't ban it! Use it! Some of the custom moves can be jarring changes and may be surprising, but it's far too early to tell if any of them are overcentralizing in any way. We're all learning!"

 

[False]

We haven't even seen G&W and Pika be an overcentralizing force yet. Looking scary and being simple isn't a bannable offense, nor is being "the best". We'll have a team that is "the best", but until it becomes THE team to play it shouldn't be banned.

This is exactly what I'm saying. We don't have enough data to merit a ban yet (the composition hasn't won a tournament yet) and people are ready to jump the gun because of the concept of a 1HK set up. Although it's likely to get banned, we don't know if there are other comps out there that absolutely stuff this one to the ground, as we haven't experimented with JACK yet in doubles.

Apex has plans of having this banned, so wat do?

 

[Overswarm]

Ridicule Alex Strife for being a mediocre TO?

His purpose for rulesets isn't with balance in mind; it's just to have as few waves as possible. If you don't want him to ban it, make waves.

Crazy teams things I have seen so far:

Villager absorbing virtually anything, whether it be a tree, villager f-smash, megaman f-smash, megaman dair, whatever
Double greninja up+b windbox edgeguard
Little Mac's jab holding an opponent in time for Bowser to f-smash them
Grabbing someone and letting Jigglypuff rest them
G&W bucket any strong projectile
Grab release into footstool into smash attack combo

There's going to be crazy stuff in teams, there always has been. Kel and I played double MK and we did the u-throw -> tornado gimp multiple times in tournament. Things'll happen.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I think the stance from the S4BR should be simple. "We believe Custom Moves will add depth to the competitive scene of Smash Bros and we encourage their use by TOs and regions that are interested in taking Smash to the next level. We understand it can be intimidating to legalize something so new to the scene so we've created guidelines to help you allow them fairly in your tournaments."

Basically something saying that "we think they are good" but not a gavel slamming down with a ruling that they must be used (thus undermining any authority we have when people don't listen to us).

Apex has plans of having this banned, so wat do?

Honestly, I think Apex is in a different ball game than regular tournaments. It has international appeal so he has to try to make rules that mirror Japanese rules (GW is banned in doubles completely in some tournaments now) but are still accepted in the US. I don't think it should be our measuring stick for rulesets.

We should make our rules and stick to our guns. Japan'll follow through if they see most of America doing something they aren't. Probably.

 

[iRJi]

Honestly, I think Apex is in a different ball game than regular tournaments. It has international appeal so he has to try to make rules that mirror Japanese rules (GW is banned in doubles completely in some tournaments now) but are still accepted in the US. I don't think it should be our measuring stick for rulesets.

We should make our rules and stick to our guns. Japan'll follow through if they see most of America doing something they aren't. Probably.

That's not true. I am on the apex committee, in fact, I am one main tournament organizers for Smash 4 for Apex. We construct rule sets that we feel are the most viable and tournament efficient for competitive play. We don't cater to regions or international appeal and construct our rules around it. Like mentioned, I don't want to get into too much detail, but I feel that the GW/Pikachu Combination in teams is actually unhealthy for doubles, however, I don't base rules off of opinions. I will always derive answers from facts, and the facts right now is that we have to little data to determine the viability of the team. I will say I am trying to prove it otherwise though.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

That's not true. I am on the apex committee, in fact, I am one main tournament organizers for Smash 4 for Apex. We construct rule sets that we feel are the most viable and tournament efficient for competitive play. We don't cater to regions or international appeal and construct our rules around it. Like mentioned, I don't want to get into too much detail, but I feel that the GW/Pikachu Combination in teams is actually unhealthy for doubles, however, I don't base rules off of opinions. I will always derive answers from facts, and the facts right now is that we have to little data to determine the viability of the team. I will say I am trying to prove it otherwise though.

Interesting. I stand corrected; good to know. I'm definitely interested to see if Pika/Gw becomes too centralizing to the game, although I definitely agree the jury is out in regards to data on it.

 

[Overswarm]

That's not true. I am on the apex committee, in fact, I am one main tournament organizers for Smash 4 for Apex. We construct rule sets that we feel are the most viable and tournament efficient for competitive play. We don't cater to regions or international appeal and construct our rules around it. Like mentioned, I don't want to get into too much detail, but I feel that the GW/Pikachu Combination in teams is actually unhealthy for doubles, however, I don't base rules off of opinions. I will always derive answers from facts, and the facts right now is that we have to little data to determine the viability of the team. I will say I am trying to prove it otherwise though.

News to me -- Alex has stated publicly in the past that the ruleset was tailored to the Japanese specifically. Good to hear you don't plan on banning things without merit.

 

[iRJi]

If there is one thing you should know, is that despite alex getting the last word, the organizers are the one who create the list and rules. I will however say that it's leaning to a ban so far, but we have another month or so for testing before we come to a final choice.

Google voice for typing is horrible. Sorry for the typos.

 

[Overswarm]

What evidence do you have to lean towards a ban? The game hasn't been out a month yet.

 

[iRJi]

You are correct. The game hasn't been out officially in the US for a month yet. However, majority of NJ/NY actually ended up buying Japanese 3DS's. We were having tournaments for over a month now, and a lot of us have been working together outside of them to test every possible nook and cranny about the game. What others are finding out now, we have published and talked about prior for a lot of things.

However, let's get directly to the question and not waste time. We understand the fundamentals of how GW works right now, at least for the most part. His bucket instead of storing a single increment of a charge, no matter how powerful it was, has changed to his bucket carrying over the single increment depending on how powerful the move is. (This is still under testing, which is why I said I didn't want to talk about it directly yet, but we are here now so...)

I don't think the issue is that he is able to set up OHKO options, the issue right now is how frequent he can set it up. Logically, the thing we would want to pay attention to in this situation is frequency and consistency. To further explain this, let's take comparables from both Brawl and S4 in terms of functionality.

Brawl:

Game and Watch's bucket combination was best used with ZSS in terms of speed + power. While powerful, the major flaw with the team is that ZSS's main Bucket filler needed her to be grounded, as well GW being near her. This lead to the combination being breakable on multiple occasions. Both players functionally had to seperate themselves from their opponents with enough distance where time allowed both players to setup the strategy. You can argue that this wasn't that difficult, which it wasn't, but it was enough to where the strategy could have a flaw. If the team is being pressured, the strategy was less effective by a significant amount.

Smash 4:

So far, the most effective team combination for the bucket strategy is GW and Pikachu. This is where things got interesting. The strategy shifts in function due to new mechanics from both Pikachu and GW. Starting with Pikachu, where Thunder initiation comes out on frame 1/2 (at least what's on record anyway). As soon as Pikachu is not in hit stun and is able to cast a move, the strategy is already half way set. Another major advantage to thunder is that it also can be used while in the air without losing any potential kill power. This allows Pikachu to also be the aggressor in terms of setting this up. This is a very big deal. GW can be knocked away, and Pikachu could actually just jump off stage if they wanted too and set up the strategy there. This makes pressuring GW very ineffective since Pikachu in most cases can reach where GW is. This also works visa versa. Since Pikachu can cast the move while in the middle of the fray, as well as off stage, GW could just jump to where Pikachu is and set up. This is a drastic change in frequency and consistency.

On GW's part, there are about 4 main things to highlight in addition to what was already mentioned above. The first point is that GW's bucket still has the same invincibility properties, meaning you will be forced to choose Pikachu as your primary target. This could lead to potential issues from the above statements. This isn't new news, as it was the same in Brawl. The next major issue is that after 10 % (Still testing, but it's been pretty consistent on all the characters so far that i have tested with) It will kill the entire cast. In fact, In most cases it will kill at 0%, with the exception of the major heavy weights. The 3rd point is that, like Brawl, Game and Watches Bucket attack is counted as a physical attack. You can't reflect it, you can Villager pocket the move, you can only shield it, HOWEVER, the 4th and probably most important part of this, is that Bucket can break shields if the shield is less the 80% (estimation) full. (again, still testing with all the characters). You may think "Oh, Just don't shield as much" but shield depleting that much in doubles is really easy and happens normally near the very beginning of the match. Approaching with shield is a very heavy tactic in doubles due to the increased amount of players on the screen.

I will port all of this information into another thread either tonight or tomorrow, as well as the things I would like to see tested. These are just the things I, or the people I have been testing with, have noticed or figured out.

 

[Overswarm]

That's a whole lot of theory that indicates we should pay attention to G&W + Pika's placements. Do you have a record of them?

I could write an expose on double villager and his bowling ball or tree as well, but it is ultimately irrelevant. Without clear overcentralization, you don't have much of a case. Given the history behind the MK ban and your state's mentality on it, you have quite a task ahead of you.

 

[iRJi]

That's a whole lot of theory that indicates we should pay attention to G&W + Pika's placements. Do you have a record of them?

I could write an expose on double villager and his bowling ball or tree as well, but it is ultimately irrelevant. Without clear overcentralization, you don't have much of a case. Given the history behind the MK ban and your state's mentality on it, you have quite a task ahead of you.

This is why I said I don't like to make choices unless having facts standing next to it.

I am more or less a "Proven innocent until guilty" type. I don't like banning anything unless I am 100% certain that I have tested it enough and have enough backing. Like you would expect, a lot of my region feels this strategy is ok, which I am personally OK with until proven otherwise. I take my testing seriously, and I don't like using theory to guide final results. Think of my above comments as a base case, and what we are doing now is performing the acts and steps to prove it true or false.

Edit: In terms of results. None are public other then our own personal testing. I have working with Ksizzle, Zucco, and a few others on my own time. Doubles in our area is only starting to leave its footing. However, for Apex, we have to do as much testing as we can within the time frame that we are provided. Rules need to be up months in advance for professionalism sake. Even if it ends up being banned this year, that doesn't mean it will be the next. Same thing visa versa.

 

[Overswarm]

Even if it ends up being banned this year, that doesn't mean it will be the next. Same thing visa versa.

This statement lends credence to our earlier ideas about how Apex's ruleset is designed -- not to make waves, rather than a focus on competition.

If G&W and Pikachu are banned, it would be because of evidence against it. There are very few reasons this would be overturned.

Regardless, I look forward to actual results; I haven't heard of G&W/Pika winning any tournaments yet, let alone being a driving force, but I haven't looked too hard. It hasn't made much of a dent here, but it probably helps that we have half a dozen Bowser players and G&W dies pretty fast.

 

[iRJi]

This statement lends credence to our earlier ideas about how Apex's ruleset is designed -- not to make waves, rather than a focus on competition.

If G&W and Pikachu are banned, it would be because of evidence against it. There are very few reasons this would be overturned.

Regardless, I look forward to actual results; I haven't heard of G&W/Pika winning any tournaments yet, let alone being a driving force, but I haven't looked too hard. It hasn't made much of a dent here, but it probably helps that we have half a dozen Bowser players and G&W dies pretty fast.

You say this as evidence couldn't lead in opposite directions over time. The only reason why I said it could shift for something like that is because of the time frame we have to make the choice to begin with. In general though, rule sets don't shift unless there is evidence against it. However, our rule set has changed year per year in order to accommodate the best possible tournament experience possible until we find the best one. They are basically just revisions of previous rules that were implemented.

I do look forward to see what happens though.

 

[Zigsta]

So far is the only money making doubles team of Pikachu/GW Max Ketchum and Jtails a couple weeks ago? I haven't heard of any others.

 

[Overswarm]

You say this as evidence couldn't lead in opposite directions over time.

Unfortunately this is typically the case. People don't like "unbanning" things and it's difficult to collect meaningful data.

If you truly do have as much control over the ruleset as you claim, I would suggest you push for as many G&W/Pika teams as possible and record the results and matches whenever possible. In the midwest I have used a "bounty" in the past; things like paying someone $X if they do Y thing on a certain stage consistently to win the tournament.

 

[Shaya]

Here's a *snicker* solution to this.

Team attack off.

Sorry,

SORRY,

I've been playing teams on For Glory too much, I'm never going back to 1v1 again haha. But it has been interesting to me how throws having invincibility allow for a lot more aggressive options in doubles even with team attack on, but it's pretty apparent that you can send in the carry 1v2 with a grab in mind and cover/support them. Pretty fast paced games. *different topic for a different time I suppose, but it is indeed a pretty easy solution to G&W teams*

 

[iRJi]

Unfortunately this is typically the case. People don't like "unbanning" things and it's difficult to collect meaningful data.

If you truly do have as much control over the ruleset as you claim, I would suggest you push for as many G&W/Pika teams as possible and record the results and matches whenever possible. In the midwest I have used a "bounty" in the past; things like paying someone $X if they do Y thing on a certain stage consistently to win the tournament.

I agree. It's normally really hard to double back on choices made, but in all honesty, that is one issue with the community that we need to address and have them understand. Choices made can always be proven wrong later. The correct actions then need to reflect the proper choice. This has always been an issue with the community where they are not comfortable with change. I feel we should be inspiring them to think otherwise.

I have as much control as everyone else associated with the project. I am one of the 8 people who come up with the decision. In terms of my region, I am leaving it open so that people will decide what they want. I wouldn't want to "force" people per se, but see where they mindset leads them. I feel that is an important factor. If they feel it's broken and very doable, they will move to the team on their own. This would reflect a persons choice in determining if it's a necessity or not. I will personally do this team with Orion at every event doubles is happening. I don't like talking badly about players, but Doom was an average players in past experiences, and Jtails was slightly above average. Considering that, I feel that players who might have more team work and consistent play styles would show more beneficial results.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it's better if we just let individual regions do as they will; the true decision making will occur on the Wii U version. I and many others feel the end-game will be customs banned on Wii U version and legal on 3DS version (or also banned if there are a bunch of broken ones). This is simply due to how unreasonable it is to expect each individual Wii U brought to a tournament to have all custom moves unlocked for each character. Unless the unlock requirements change significantly on the Wii U, I think that will be their fate.

 

[Overswarm]

You can transfer them from a 3DS.

 

[iRJi]

You can transfer them from a 3DS.

That's not true actually. To my knowledge, It's still undetermined if it can. You can't transfer from 3DS to 3DS, so there is a high assumption that it might not be allowed.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

That's not true actually. To my knowledge, It's still undetermined if it can. You can't transfer from 3DS to 3DS, so there is a high assumption that it might not be allowed.

Apparently Nintendo said during one of the Treehouse streams that unlocks on the 3DS are transferable to the Wii U so theoretically you may need only need one 3DS with all unlocked customs for a full tournament.

I think it's better if we just let individual regions do as they will; the true decision making will occur on the Wii U version. I and many others feel the end-game will be customs banned on Wii U version and legal on 3DS version (or also banned if there are a bunch of broken ones). This is simply due to how unreasonable it is to expect each individual Wii U brought to a tournament to have all custom moves unlocked for each character. Unless the unlock requirements change significantly on the Wii U, I think that will be their fate.

Same here regarding the unlocks.

Besides, I think perhaps Shaya jumped the gun a little bit. I do think a public stance on custom moves as the S4BR will make an impact in the ocmpetitive community. I believe that finding a universal ruleset AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE is important because Smash 4 may become a spectator esport in the near future when the Wii U version comes out, and the closer our rulesets are between regions the easier it is for the average casual player to connect and understand what is going on.

That said, do we even all agree that (assuming unlocking is NOT an issue) custom specials should be used in tournaments until proven otherwise?

If we all do, then it is a matter of drafting up a statement along with some easy to copy-paste rules for how to legalize custom moves in your tournament (Overswarm's proposed ruleset sounds fantastic for that... although I'm not a huge fan of the inability to counterpick single specials on the fly per his ruleset, which is the next discussion we could have).

 

[Strong Badam]

You can transfer them from a 3DS.

Source?
I'm not sure if forcing players to own a 3DS in order to use custom moves would be fair or good for competition either

 

[Overswarm]

Source?
I'm not sure if forcing players to own a 3DS in order to use custom moves would be fair or good for competition either

It was on the treehouse stream in more detail, but is also on the 3DS itself. Select the "Wii U" option and it will tell you that you can exchange custom fighters between the two. From what the treehouse people said it's pretty seamless but I didn't see it in action (didn't watch the whole stream); worst case scenario is there'd be a TO 3DS with custom moves.

There's more than 10 combinations possible, but it looks like 10 combinations will be pretty easy to meet.

The biggest issue is how long it takes to transfer them, if the transfer is permanent, and if they can be edited.

If it takes like two minutes to transfer over customs for every character and they are permanent and be edited, there's no issue. If it takes an hour and lasts only as long as the 3DS is used as a controller, there's a larger issue.

We'll have to see for the Wii U version, but customs are such a large boon that it's worth the possible discomfort.

(Overswarm's proposed ruleset sounds fantastic for that... although I'm not a huge fan of the inability to counterpick single specials on the fly per his ruleset, which is the next discussion we could have).

Me neither. A good example would be Bowser and his over-b. He wants the claw version against Rosalina. HAS to have it. Wants the grab vs. Sheik. Sheik Rosalina player = ability to counter Bowser based on move choice. Is that a bad thing? I dunno. Is this any different than picking Ness as your character in Brawl and being CPed by a Marth?

I'm starting with "most ease" at my house tournament to see how it goes.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Me neither. A good example would be Bowser and his over-b. He wants the claw version against Rosalina. HAS to have it. Wants the grab vs. Sheik. Sheik Rosalina player = ability to counter Bowser based on move choice. Is that a bad thing? I dunno. Is this any different than picking Ness as your character in Brawl and being CPed by a Marth?

I'm starting with "most ease" at my house tournament to see how it goes.

I see choosing specials as the same thing as choosing a character. I don't see what the downsides of simply using our current CP system but choosing character and loadout at the same time are. I really only see two viable possibilities.

Player 1 beats Player 2
Player 1 bans stage
Player 2 picks CP stage
Player 1 chooses character + loadout (telling opponent what specials he's choosing)
Player 2 chooses character + loadout
Game starts

VS

Player 1 beats Player 2
Player 1 bans stage
Player 2 picks CP stage
Player 1 chooses character
Player 2 chooses character
Player 1 chooses loadout (telling opponent what specials he's choosing)
Player 2 chooses loadout
Game starts


My preference is for the first because its easier to understand and implement.

 

[Shaya]

My thoughts involve custom specials not being something "counter pickable". It's decided after everything else, and players shouldn't be picking custom specials based off another person's custom specials (although I'd assume there really isn't many scenarios where a character would go for a different load based off enemy specials, unless it's Miis or Palutena)

So mutual announcement of custom special selection.

 

[Overswarm]

It really just depends on how hard we want the CP process to be. If you have to pick your character AND your special before they pick their character, you can be suuuuuuuper hard countered. Bowser needs a different side-b and different up+b based on matchup and they're different enough to where it's like picking a different character entirely.

Is this different than saying "I pick Ike!" and your opponent CPing to Sheik? Is this something we just want to allow, or is it something we should pay attention to so that the character selection is wider? Should custom specials simply not be announced prior to the other player picking their character (double blind every time)? We'll need more experience with them before figuring it out.

 

[Shaya]

That icon that accompanies character portraits with custom specials can still retain "neutral" whilst having items equipped.

@Xiivi pointed this out to me, and it's... pretty ****ty. Basically 100% kills any ability to run customs in any wifi ladder or the like, and makes tournaments a lot more complicated
We can't really avoid people cheating with this without also making sacrifices in time or apply other restrictions to tournament players.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Irl tournaments can check that, wifi? Yeah GL checking that over the Internet.

Only way I see they working is having people preset loads before a tournament and be able to verify it. Can't do that over wifi ugg.

Unlocking shouldn't be an issue, plenty of other games have had that be an issue, some of which you gotta pay additional money than just buying the game.