A project coming to an end to begin

[saviorslegacy]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230105
Who her remembers this thread?
I've done a lot of maturing with this site and with Sheik then. lol
I have made my mistakes, many in number they are. I guess you could call it my blunders.

What if I told you that I have been working on that thread this entire time?
When I made that thread I didn't know anything. Then Tristan stepped in. He is practically my sensai. lol <3 also helped me out a lot.
Everything I have posted about Sheik has been all about 1 thing, "finding the best way to play her".
I first thought decay was the answer. While very important to Sheik, it is not totally what we should be doing.

Then I made my biggest mistake. I thought that footstools were the answer to all of my problems.I thought that it would solve what I call the *Sheik gap*.
I over looked ooooone thing. That was that the hit box and hurt box of a footstool is EXTREMELY small (think of Sheiks shin, now cut in half)(their head and shoulders are the hurt box). The slightest bit of DI can completely screw all footstools up. Just about the only legit footstools are maybe ZSS's and a footstool on Wario. ROB is easy to footstool for some reason. I think his hurt box is stretched. IDK though.

I was also foolish enough to think that there were combo's that Sheik had that no one else had though about. So I researched what I thought was unknown. lol

There were few things that I have looked into that did turn out good though.


About 2 months ago I left Brawl. I thought that I was wasting my life playing a stupid game. I then realized that life spent happy goes unwasted. SSBB makes me happy, so I returned.
(I just thought I would throw that out there to clear up any confusion.)
*Now back to my work*

Anyways, I have watched the boards like a mad man trying to find anything useful. I have also stolen many idea's from Tristan, and <3. lol
So I went on decided to start interviewing people. Funny thing is I felt like Neo done the same thing to me. <,<
I have barely talked to gimpy and I can't figure out how to anno-... contact Armada.
I have interviewd/asked questions from other people though. This includes the trai-... this includes Innocentroads (just wait until I make video's destroying your grab release stuff on Sheik!).

I have even done tests on CPU's to find a generality of what moves ge punished the most.
Here is a section from Sheiks Diary that talks about this:

An overall look at punishment:

I have compared moves in here to find what is punished out of a CPU match.
I chose a CPU since they don’t predict moves and I figured their shield grab/seeing how well they can counter it is as good as any. If I seen where they could counter I counted that against Sheik.
*note* These where used to attack grounded opponents.
ps This is an overall. The tests were run 3 times.


*jab*
7 out of 10 not countered
*f-tilt*
5 out of 10 not countered
*d-tilt*
6 out of 10 not countered
*u-tilt*
4 out of 10 not countered
*dash attack*
9 out of 10 not countered
*grab*
8 out of 10 not countered
*Fair*
7 out of 10 not countered
*Bair*
10 out of 10 not countered
*Nair*
7 out of 10 not countered
*Uair*
can’t be used to attack people on the ground
*Dair*
3 out of 10 not countered
*FSmash*
4 out of 10 not countered*
*DSmash*
6 out of 10 not countered
*USmash*
3 out of 10 not countered
*Needle Storm*
10 out of 10 not countered
*Chain*
7 out of 10 not countered
*Vanish*
5 out of 10 not countered


I have many things in that Diary. The useless stuff has been deleted, or rewrote. Right now it is a bunch of information that is bare bone. Unless you know you're Sheik chit you will be completely lost.
This post is not releasing that cradle of information. It is talking about IMO what Sheiks meta game SHOULD be and people SHOULD play her.

Without further boring you, I will not talk about the Sheik I see in the future. AKA S.H.i.T.T (lol)
ps IDC if this is not how you play Sheik. Going all out on someone works too... but this talks about how I think she should be played. So please don't start anything about how I got it all wrong or how it's not all that fun to play this way.




K now lets take a look at out total strengths and how to maximize them.
She has good speed.
She is sexy.
She is sexy.
She has very useful specials (I can honestly say I am the first person to use that sentence).
She has a good spacing game.
She has one awesome DACUS.

That is just to name a few. However, the above is what I will be focusing on.


Over all spacing
Someone should shoot me but I'm all for using her speed to stay out of harms way. Stay AWAY from danger. You have enough speed to get out of there. If you try and counter everything someone does you will come to realize that you aren't the only one countering. -_-

Instead of doing this crazy *** loco ***** slapping we need to charge Needle's. You wont believe it but the reason why I found that Needle Boost thing is that I wanted to know how we could use our Needle's to keep away from people.
I want to do more testing but Needle's> Dash Attack seem to be her BEST approach.
That is also about 30% mind you.

The question arises though. What happens if you are pushed against the edge of the stage?
An easy answer is Needle's (smoke em if ya got em)> DACUS.
That DACUS (quotes Tristan) is a TERROR tool.
It is also a tool that the yellow chicken is fond of.

If all else fails try and get a B-Throw (to hopefully put them over the ledge) or a CAREFULLY placed Bair.

Guess what that leaves the opponent to do?
#1 Throw stuff/shoot stuff in hopes of hitting our yellow belly. (Sheik can duck under this stuff and of cource, power shield while dashing.)

#2 Approach us
(DING DING DING DING, WE HAVE A WINNER)
We don't need to approach all of the time. It is unneeded when we have our awesome Ninja tools (aka Needle's).
How awesome is it to get people in close to us so we can f-tilt lock/f-tilt> USmash?

I also forgot to mention the Chain. Here, do you home work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM9t-tt9K6c
This video also kinda shows how to use the Chain Lock.
(I plan on editting that video showing me using it against a MK.)
(I also plan on having the original track.. long story but that song shouldn't be there...)

So where does Vanish fit into all of this?
Well for one if they are approaching you a well timed Vanish is a good idea. You might have better options but Vanishing can lead into this.
*will edit when I can find the freakin video!!!!!*
Vanish> Vanish catch> Needle's> force get up> USmash
Also, when aiming the Vanish got for what I showed in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUP7i8vjflk
Here is a perfect example of a Vanish cancel, that also hit someone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOcDI4uXDR4

So what if a for shield's?
I have already worked the kinks out of that. I just need hot garbage to tell me if there is enough shield stun to be legit.
Needle Storm> DACUS
It should cause I shield bust or VERYYYYYY close to it (character dependent).
Shielding against Sheik= death wish
The chain also destroys a shield.


Now onto what I am starting to think is Sheiks greatest strength.
UnKoWn recently told me about a strategy that he was working on.
Basically it's where you stand on a platform and punish any attempts to get up from the ledge with Fair.
I took it a step further.
*from Sheiks Diary*

If you sit a certain distance away from the ledge you can counter anything they do.
You should be at a distance where your Needle reaches them when short hopped.
Here are the counters for each and every action:
normal ledge wake> counter with f-tilt> rapid jabs or DSmash
attack ledge wake> counter with f-tilt> rapid jabs or DSmash
roll ledge wake> counter with Bair/B-Throw
jump ledge wake> counter with fair
planking> counter with Needle’s/chain
if all else fail> power shield> Needle’s
You can also just stand on the far platform at BF and just take care of anything by falling through and Fair them.

That is a VERY strong strategy. He said he got an entire stock off of a Pit by doing that. I got two stocks off of an Ike (got him at the ledge at 30% with B-Throw lol) and one stock from a Kirby. THIS IS A VERY STRONG TACTIC!!! I am even tempted to say that Sheik is broken when it comes to this.
Since she moves so fast you can keep them out over the ledge, and they just keep getting damage. Sooner or later yo can end with a Nair.


Another strong tactic is this:
*taken from.. the Diary*

Sheik has a pretty good juggling game.
Try and get them above you with a grab. You can usually keep them in the air if you use your head.
This also opens them up to DACUS options.
Needle’s upon landing is also a good idea, and since they spend time in the air you also get Needle charging time.
The best way to juggle is by using D-Throw.
BTW, this isn't e new idea.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222348


Recovering with Sheik.
I was originally planning on not putting this part in... but I feel that all Sheiks should learn how to recover more effectively.
*guess?*

Recovering:

Tethering (if you can get the ledge) is her BEST recovery. It is just keeping them off of the ledge is the hard part.
If you recover low you can auto grab the ledge with Vanish.
If you are in the upper right or left you can use Dair and buffer Vanish (not chain). This will help avoid being punished.
SDI up when you are hit (no duh). You never want to be but into a position where you are forced to Vanish onto the stage. You are easily punished in this position. L
To improve your recovery you can B reverse Needle’s and hit a gimping opponent with Bair.
Just make sure you can still recover after you use the Needle’s….
When recovering from above throw Needle’s down onto people who wish to gimp you. Follow up with tether.

Finishing it all up.
Now that this is explained I will give you the short version.

Run around avoiding getting hit by using Needle Boosts (while charging your Needle's).

If someone gets to close go for a Bair (Bair combo's into f-tilt at f-tilt lock percents).

Stay right out of their reach and use Needle's> Dash attack.

TRY and get the foe over the ledge. Once they are over it the only excuse you should have for letting them get back is that you are still new to this idea.

Try and juggle with D-Throw. You learn their DI habits this way.

Keep track of your f-tilt decay.

Chain when you can.

If they are rushing in and you have enough time use Vanish.

DACUS to avoid people and to terrorize them.

Don't forget things like
(MK at 63%) Fair> Needle ground lock> force get up> USmash/???,
grab> grab release> DACUS,
Swan Combo (it is better than you think),
f-tilt lock,
Vanish> Vanish catch> Needle ground lock> force get up> USmash/???,
d-tilt/f-tilt/F-Throw/B-Throw/Vanish (more tricky)/u-tilt> put for onto platform> Nair ground lock> chain (her main chain set up.. oh and it also ground locks... on most people)
and any other kind of situational combo. Just keep you eye out for opportunities. They will eventually arise.


Well, that ends months of work.
I hope to have this advanced a lot more by December and make this thread into the official Sheik meta game guide.

ps Sorry if this confuses some people. Lemme know if you have any questions!

pss Some info might be a little off due to me editing it. It should be 100% positive, but human error happens. Also let me know if a sentence doesn't make sense since I have been copying and pasting some stuff in here out of Sheiks Diary.

psss Do not ask for a copy of Sheiks Diary.
I will release stuff from there when I want to.
If you really really want something I will tell you. but I am not going to give a full copy out.
(And no that guide is not BS, there are 32 lines talking about options while holding onto the ledge)

 

[saviorslegacy]

This will be used to show old tactics that we no longer use a lot.
Or, pending idea's that need discussion.

 

[Tristan_win]

"Grab comes out on frame four so don’t be afraid to spam this."

I recall it comes out on frame 6-7 and with 30 frames of cool down I don't think spamming sheik grab is a very fine idea. For reference that's the same amount of cool down as a dtilt.

Savior...Your version of sheik isn't the same as mine anymore, I still think proper decay is the main key to shoot sheik into higher tiers...

 

[choknater]

i think autocancels are the key :D

to each his own!!!

 

[saviorslegacy]

"Grab comes out on frame four so don’t be afraid to spam this."

I recall it comes out on frame 6-7 and with 30 frames of cool down I don't think spamming sheik grab is a very fine idea. For reference that's the same amount of cool down as a dtilt.

Savior...Your version of sheik isn't the same as mine anymore, I still think proper decay is the main key to shoot sheik into higher tiers...

Woops... I thought it was different.
Your version of Sheik is part of this Sheik play style.
The main difference is playing smarter (no offense.. I'm talking about rushing in) and focusing on a.. stage guard.

The rest is unchanged.
I mentioned "use situational thing". She has so many situational things it is hard not to have one at almost every point in the match (exaggerated I know, but you get my point).

My research has been surrounded by this: "When should each option be taken advantage of."
That also includes replacing spacing. Just because it is a better option.

i think autocancels are the key :D

to each his own!!!

Auto cancel are not key. More like one gear in a clock.. that is Sheik.

I would rather it be "all Sheiks are alike, but yet different".
We have so many options that some people take advantage of one strong options (lets say f-tilt combo's) and ignore another good option (lets say stage guarding).
We need to merge the play styles. That has been my goal from the beginning.

Once we take advantage of everything and apply every option, then Sheik is something to fear.. even more.

 

[East]

i think autocancels are the key :D

I'm gonna agree with this one. All good players autocancel. Play a few, and you realize it soon. I played a friends Pikachu with my Peach, where for just one stock, I started autocancelling everything, and after I killed him about 20 seconds later he was like "Sheesh, Micah. What down time?" We recorded the match, and I realized after watching it, during that 20 second span, I ****ed him up.

Sheik's fast, Autocancel, and it'll feel like she's on crack.

 

[j0s3ph]

I'm glad to see Sheik's metagame actually moving on, it's been pretty quiet for a while. I'm not sure on some of the things you said, but the ledgeguarding on stage tactic sounds legit (I may try it out in friendlies at a tourney tomorrow, I'll post how it goes).

Needles to DA sounds too easily avoided. Opponent just needs to stay in the air to avoid needles and even if they do get hit, dash attack is a telegraphed move. If it lands once in a match, good luck pulling of that combo again.

Have you looked into Innocentroad's Fair to DACUS combo? It worked at higher percents on Bowser and I'm curious to see if it can land on anyone else. Even with some DI a DACUS might be able to land.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm starting to actually enjoy coming to the boards and feeling like it's an actuall community instead of like back in 2008-early 2009 when i had to be careful with everything i said for fear of getting flamed. I <3 Sheik boards now.

 

[choknater]

lol yea sheik boards are pretty good

gimpy was pretty innovative but at the same time he was opinionated and sometimes put people down unintentionally lol

i used to hate dacus and chain and called them useless

but i use them now

anything to make sheik progress

so savior, even tho ur not perfect and ur theories sometimes just theories, sometimes u come up with a cool idea so keep it up

i still gotta learn how to vanish cancel

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'm gonna agree with this one. All good players autocancel. Play a few, and you realize it soon. I played a friends Pikachu with my Peach, where for just one stock, I started autocancelling everything, and after I killed him about 20 seconds later he was like "Sheesh, Micah. What down time?" We recorded the match, and I realized after watching it, during that 20 second span, I ****ed him up.

Sheik's fast, Autocancel, and it'll feel like she's on crack.

Not to step on y'alls toes but Ganon's auto cancel a lot. Look where he is.
I am right behind you on the auto canceling bit, but that's not good enough.

I'm glad to see Sheik's metagame actually moving on, it's been pretty quiet for a while. I'm not sure on some of the things you said, but the ledgeguarding on stage tactic sounds legit (I may try it out in friendlies at a tourney tomorrow, I'll post how it goes).

Needles to DA sounds too easily avoided. Opponent just needs to stay in the air to avoid needles and even if they do get hit, dash attack is a telegraphed move. If it lands once in a match, good luck pulling of that combo again.

Have you looked into Innocentroad's Fair to DACUS combo? It worked at higher percents on Bowser and I'm curious to see if it can land on anyone else. Even with some DI a DACUS might be able to land.

IMO.. it has been moving at a steady pace. Kick off a conversation with someone and you'll see it. Who ever exploits a certain option the most knows all kinds of tricks for it.
^^^^^ This was the basis on talking to people.

sigh..... I guess I can post the DACUS section from the Diary......
DACUS

Ledge wake> DACUS
Grab Release> DACUS
Nair second stage> DACUS (high percents)
Nair> DACUS (low percents)
Bair> DACUS (mid percents)
Fair> DACUS (highish percents)
Needle’s> DACUS
Use this as a terror tool. Hopefully they start shielding more so you can get a bust.

Honestly, how many people new about all of those DACUS tricks?

I'm starting to actually enjoy coming to the boards and feeling like it's an actuall community instead of like back in 2008-early 2009 when i had to be careful with everything i said for fear of getting flamed. I <3 Sheik boards now.

I am starting to like the Sheik boards now that I kinda know everyone.
I do agree though, this place is starting to get a community feel.

 

[gm jack]

Very nice. I'll read it more in depth when I have some more time. Glad you've started taking some caution in announcing massive discoveries. You have a real drive for finding stuff, but before everything was the next big thing. I would not be surprised if you do some very important work for Sheik.

 

[choknater]

savior, i like how you listed the counters for each ledge option

with those in your mind, at least you have a move already in your head to use as a reaction. good stuff

 

[Tristan_win]

bored, the way to use sheik at a good level is using a mixture of true combos, semi true combos as in 1-3 frames they can do something but sometimes don't in time or theirs moves just don't come out in time and strings that look like combos.

You can get away with a lot because people just don't know sheik cookie cutter strings like utilt into dash grab. Very good but can be beaten since it's not a real combo. However by switching from true combos, semi true combos and strings it makes it look like you are doing nothing but combos the whole time. The smart player will of course always try to escape though either DI or using their "combo breaker" like marth up B but because they are trying so hard to use their "combo breaker" their DI will always suck *** which allow you to combo even better. If they DI then use those strings, swapping between them is key as unless they REALLY know sheik how the hell are they going to know if it's a semi true combo or the real deal.

This is why my thread is so importent to not only find the true but the semi true,

Thank god for buffing so we can be frame perfect although being close works almost as well since your the one in control.

sorry for the lack of spell check.

 

[-Mars-]

I dont necessarily play Sheik at a high level but the way I play her ultimately depends on the matchup I am in because in some matchups I play an all out aggro style utilizing my frame advantage while in other matcups I play ultra defensive and play more of a hit and run style.

 

[saviorslegacy]

savior, i like how you listed the counters for each ledge option

with those in your mind, at least you have a move already in your head to use as a reaction. good stuff

If you want to memorize Sheik write it out.
Studies show that if you say it, write it and read it you will memorize it.
If you do it against a CPU (CPU's are the one of the best things to learn technique's on).
Even though applications work better on people.

bored, the way to use sheik at a good level is using a mixture of true combos, semi true combos as in 1-3 frames they can do something but sometimes don't in time or theirs moves just don't come out in time and strings that look like combos.

You can get away with a lot because people just don't know sheik cookie cutter strings like utilt into dash grab. Very good but can be beaten since it's not a real combo. However by switching from true combos, semi true combos and strings it makes it look like you are doing nothing but combos the whole time. The smart player will of course always try to escape though either DI or using their "combo breaker" like marth up B but because they are trying so hard to use their "combo breaker" their DI will always suck *** which allow you to combo even better. If they DI then use those strings, swapping between them is key as unless they REALLY know sheik how the hell are they going to know if it's a semi true combo or the real deal.

This is why my thread is so important to not only find the true but the semi true,

Thank god for buffing so we can be frame perfect although being close works almost as well since your the one in control.

sorry for the lack of spell check.

Yep, the Swan thread will list all of the combo's. Decay and everything.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I look forward to this finally coming out. I've already picked up a few things in the grab release department (btw, is the Pika air release guaranteed?) and I'm hoping to pick up some more.

 

[-Mars-]

So many things for me to still be practicing even after all of this time. I still need to start implementing all of her jab locks into a forced getup on real opponents, GR DACUS, DACUS in general, memorizing ftilts........i'm going to be busy with Sheik for a while to come.

 

[iLight]

Not to step on y'alls toes but Ganon's auto cancel a lot. Look where he is.
I am right behind you on the auto canceling bit, but that's not good enough.

IMO.. it has been moving at a steady pace. Kick off a conversation with someone and you'll see it. Who ever exploits a certain option the most knows all kinds of tricks for it.
^^^^^ This was the basis on talking to people.

sigh..... I guess I can post the DACUS section from the Diary......
DACUS

Ledge wake> DACUS
Grab Release> DACUS
Nair second stage> DACUS (high percents)
Nair> DACUS (low percents)
Bair> DACUS (mid percents)
Fair> DACUS (highish percents)
Needle’s> DACUS
Use this as a terror tool. Hopefully they start shielding more so you can get a bust.

Honestly, how many people new about all of those DACUS tricks?

I am starting to like the Sheik boards now that I kinda know everyone.
I do agree though, this place is starting to get a community feel.

I did, and I lol at the using needles to dacus as a terror tool, i've been doing that for sooooooo long haha, its amazing

side note:

i love conditioning people to do what i want them to
also I love punishing people for doing the right thing

 

[saviorslegacy]

I did, and I lol at the using needles to dacus as a terror tool, i've been doing that for sooooooo long haha, its amazing

side note:

i love conditioning people to do what i want them to
also I love punishing people for doing the right thing

Spoiler

This is SL speaking... and what I said below is a joke lol.. I bet you never find this BTW

You're a ******* Light.
You steal my glory.... all of the time (mainly on AIM)

 

[ddonaldo]

i love conditioning people to do what i want them to
also I love punishing people for doing the right thing

I've never tried b-air to DACUS.
however running up smash (forgot its posh name) to DACUS is effective at high percentages since running up smash causes them to slide across the floor.

And lol punishing marths for trying to DS out of your tilts is win