A potential clone engine idea.

[Tylerelyt]

Here's the thought: Right now, we can replace models of characters with other models, within a few limits. So, quite a while ago in the YL thread, there was these two posts (by the same person):

Olimar works like a alloy when it comes to model replacing (replacing the mdl0 file in Olimar's texture), a lot of characters work.
In that way Olimar is even better than using a alloy.

Coming back on what said earlier about Olimar and model replacing.
I tested it and it worked.
Also worked when using Meta Knight (hint hint).

So, with that in mind, he went on to how we should port the psa and all the files, so we could play both YL and Link in one match. The idea was turned down because we simply didn't see the need, nor are we yet finished.

However, could this not be used as a potential clone engine? Here's how it works: 2 Psa's, Link, and YL. You have Link as your default in the /pf folder. Then you have YL in another folder, perhaps /yl, and you use almas's alternate file loader to load it. However, instead of loading it from /yl/link, you instead load it from the /yl/olimar, in which olimar's files are ported to be, by selecting olimar on the css and holding L+A while it's loading. Then, you can play a round with Link against YL.

The only problem is sound effects, which are, until Vile gets around to finishing his guide/soundpack, unchangeable anyway.

Obviously, this is not going to work for YL. He's got too many articles that he uses. However, if this worked, Fighter Geno could fight Cosmic Geno could fight Toon Link, as well as Roy vs. Marth vs. Soren vs. Assasin Marth.


So, is there a reason this mightn't work? And I apologize if I should have posted this in a current topic rather than a new one.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Doesn't that cause the same problem where you can't use Olimar and YL in the same match?

 

[Tylerelyt]

No, because, along with YL being in the /yl/olimar folder, you have him in /yl/link. So, yes, you have to port it 4 times in order to guarantee being able to play the character with all of the other characters, but most people can simply port it to 1 or 2 that they never play and call it good.

Plus, I myself, noob as I am, never play more than 1 vs. 1. I'm kind of basing this on that assumption.

 

[Oni K4ge]

Hmm... I think the problem (which has been mentioned before) was that each character has a "module" file that it MUST load from, and we cannot edit those files. It HAS to load load, and somehow it connects to the CSS, so when you would select olimar with almas' code, it would simply bark at you (beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep). And then, hell, maybe Im wrong. But I'm almost sure that was our one problem with this.

 

[Almas]

If the idea that "any model can work on Olimar's base" is valid, then there is no reason why this would not work for having two versions of one character in the same game, because one is essentially Olimar.

The issues with having multiple PSA characters of the same base is simple:

When you select Marth, the game first checks to see if FitMarth.pac etc. etc. have been loaded. If they have, it doesn't load the file.

The consequence of this should be apparent. No alternate file loading code will allow you to play Roy instead of Marth, because once a player has already chosen Marth, anyone who picks him again won't cause the file to be loaded. So the file can't be replaced. And the Roy .pac is still a Marth .pac in the game's eyes.

There may be a way around this involving making the game believe it always has to load these files (e.g. making it believe the character has not been loaded if another person picks it). However, this is tricky (not that I can put any work into it), and there are other complications involving how files "prefer" to be loaded in certain places.

But this Olimar method would work provided the above theory is valid.

 

[MaRRoK]

very interesting.

I think the posts above me state it perfectly. But just to recap,

So this would insure that a red alloy model hack, an olimar "clone", & the orig character can be in a battle versus each other, assuming that each one is loading a diff file, even if the files are the same. (what I mean is a roy PSA + model renamed FitOlimar.pac, and made accordingly, can fight a normal marth because the game thinks its loading olimar v.s. marth.)

I've got two questions about that.
first of all, have there been any PSA/model hacks that have been made as Olimar, or are you speaking in hypothetical?

2ndly, I think we all see the future limitations of this because the game will run into the same paradox when trying to load a match featuring: olimar "clone" v.s. olimar clasic. However, this would be a very smart way of advoiding the paradox by substituting variables. Really the only problem is computers and the random feature, and online play because you dont know who your opponent will play. otherwise you can just say "btw dont play as olimar while I'm playing as him. My wii will esplode."

3rd. so you say that any (or at least all so far) models work on olimar. However, would the pikmen still get spawned? I dont know how they work. are they models with animations? or do they function uniquely? if they are models, all that means is that we can give the olimar "clone" props. (happy birthday young link)

4th. This is a stupid question of me to ask, but i cant remember the answer. can olimar crawl? if so, this might have an isue. I remember a while ago someone tried something like this on pikachu, however, they ran into problems because pikachu can crawl, and they didnt have a command for crawling. this isnt really a problem per say. its simply something to note. If its made specificly for olimar, then it shouldnt be too much of a problem, considering its made well of corse.

 

[Richdog567]

Well, this has probably already been suggested, but what about the custom SSS with extra stages? could we make a code that adds brand new characters in that way?

 

[Oshtoby]

Well, this has probably already been suggested, but what about the custom SSS with extra stages? could we make a code that adds brand new characters in that way?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Phantom Wings is working on that.

 

[Almas]

Stage module files are simpler than character module files. PW modified the module files in his code for adding SSS stages.

Dantarion's method was essentially my method, but he modified file names instead of folder names. Still, simpler because there's only ever one file at a time. And checking to see if a file name has to be loaded is done before these codes activate.

 

[Richdog567]

Yeah, there would be a whole lot to add for a new character, but it will be done, sooner or later. I'm never suprised by the Brawl Community anymore. =P

 

[ds22]

It's a good theory, but I see a few problems with.
As stated by MaRRoK, you'll get a paradox when loading the "clone" and the original Olimar.
What more important is that there is the Module problem, in which the game will try to load the file structure it was supposed to load (Olimar's Module loads Olimar's .pac file and Link's Module loads Link's .pac file).
And I think that is the problem with the File Size Limit is related to the Module's.
Otherwise you probably wouldn't need to port anything over, like I mentioned in the Young Link thread.
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but that is how I imagine it.
(I wouldn't be surprised do if Phantom Wings comes and shows that he indeed modified Character Modules and loaded for example both Zero and Young Link in the same match).

 

[hotdogturtle]

The true clone engine that Phantom Wings is working on is adding new character slots to the CSS that load something like FitCustom00.pac, which don't have to replace any old characters. It's the same process that he did for the stage expansion system.

 

[Dantarion]

d (Olimar's Module loads Olimar's .pac file and Link's Module loads Link's .pac file).

No, no, no, no.

If it was this easy, the alternate stage loader would simply be a module file modification.
The game loads both the module file for oli and the .pac for oli, but not because the module file IS olis.

If they were the case, switching modules would force the game to load the wrong character, and a clone engine would be muuuuch easier. We don't know WHERE in the game the "If that character is loaded" crap is.

 

[ds22]

Oh ok.
I always thought that the Modules where coded to be loaded in the way I thought.
Never knew.

 

[superyoshi888]

You guys aren't getting what he is saying. He says replace the model in Olimar's pac with say, Roy(since Young link wouldn't work with his articles, apparently), and the textures as well. THEN, port the coding from the pac over to Oli's using PSA, making adjustments as needed I guess. Then we have the animations and stuff to worry about. That way, it would load it as if it was Olimar's stuff. Rather than renaming the files, we swap the stuff in them since we don't know how Character Modules work.

Also, this could be used in conjunction with Almas's previous Alternate Character File loader with multiple characters being edited to remove any worry of having Roy vs Marth or Roy vs Olimar.

And quite honestly, I'm surprised no one had thought of doing that yet.

 

[ds22]

You guys aren't getting what he is saying. He says replace the model in Olimar's pac with say, Roy(since Young link wouldn't work with his articles, apparently), and the textures as well. THEN, port the coding from the pac over to Oli's using PSA, making adjustments as needed I guess. Then we have the animations and stuff to worry about. That way, it would load it as if it was Olimar's stuff. Rather than renaming the files, we swap the stuff in them since we don't know how Character Modules work.

Also, this could be used in conjunction with Almas's previous Alternate Character File loader with multiple characters being edited to remove any worry of having Roy vs Marth or Roy vs Olimar.

And quite honestly, I'm surprised no one had thought of doing that yet.

You sir can read my thoughts.
It however takes a fair amount of time to do this.
But since Roy doesn't use Articles, it would in theory take less time to port him over.
And the Animation stuff is just renaming the Fit(Character)MotionEtc.pac to FitOlimarMotionEtc.pac.

 

[[TSON]]

You can't add articles. So if a character uses articles, then it won't work

 

[ds22]

I never said you could.
I'm saying that Roy has no Articles which makes him easier to port over in this theory.

 

[[TSON]]

Yes, I know, but I'm saying if a character has ANY articles at ALL, it will not work.

 

[ds22]

Well to let you know, Olimar has a fair amount of Articles.

 

[Eldiran]

Well to let you know, Olimar has a fair amount of Articles.

Aye, but if the articles have any properties, it won't work...

For example, Link's arrows have floating point values that determine gravity, speed, charge speed, etc. This can't be ported.

Similarly, the way Link's down air gives him a bump of upward momentum on a hit will also not be able to be ported, because it is hard coded. Basically, anything that is hardcoded won't be transferable, and anything Olimar has hardcoded will interfere.

 

[Oni K4ge]

"Hard coded"... Like his helmet light thing? Weird how that thing behaves...

 

[MaRRoK]

good points on boths sides. olimar does have articals ready and willing to be spawned, however, they are "hard coded" into the articals and will have the same properties. What i can infer this would mean (among a large list of things) that replacing a model of the yellow pikmen, cust0m animations for hits trajectory (unless its done via thrown item property. i dont think it is.), it will still deal electric damage like a yellow pikmen would and would remain stagnant on the stage until "destroyed" and the ghost apears. this is mere speculation. someone would have to try it out.

and btw, we have thought of this, we just havent done it sucessfully. for instance i put CF's model and Mastercheif texture on snake for a master-cheif-ish thing. it didnt turn out well for some reason.
but thats not my point.
point is that model swaps are available on a large # of characters and withthe right combination of PSA, model swaps, animation hacks, and artical collisions, there will still be bugs. however, this will be somewhat close to working, assuming all prior premises come to fruition.

Furthermore, can someone try to make a quick olimar "clone" test to try it out? i'll do one as well. that way if it doesnt work, we can try the other one and see if the underlying process is whats makeing it not work, or if one of us just goofed on something. 2 heads are better than one so to speak.

ill try to make mine asap. ill post on here. someone else make something. can be anything, as long as its custom animated, PSA'd, and model hacked on Olimar's files.

help me falsify!