A Plumber's Tools - The Mario Moveset Discussion! #8: Bair.

[:mad:]

A strange fella', that bobson.

 

[AndreVeloso]

Oh, if only U-Smash had it's glory days of N64. Used to love throwing characters into the wall on Sector Z and collide with them on the rebound with an U-smash. Lost it's potency in Brawl. Still has moderate power with the back of the cap though. A reliable aerial killer for those who love to float (Kirby & Jiggs)

 

[SkylerOcon]

Um... what? Mario's up smash is much better in Brawl than it was in 64. Mario's up smash in Brawl has really good priority, excellent range, it's fast, it can kill, and it's a good damage dealer.

In 64 it was really that one move that you could combo into sometimes maybe. I guess it was a bit of a combo starter... but it's much better in Brawl.

Really, now that we've started to use enough Nair, now we're not using enough Usmash. Really, it's an absolutely fantastic punishing move.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah. Nair OoS seems to work exceptionally well, I only end up using Usmash against characters like Wolf or Marth, because they're terrible if falling under you. Mario has some of the best juggling options in the game.

Overall for a smash, this one's about an 8 out of 10.

 

[_Green_]

Um... what? Mario's up smash is much better in Brawl than it was in 64. Mario's up smash in Brawl has really good priority, excellent range, it's fast, it can kill, and it's a good damage dealer.

In 64 it was really that one move that you could combo into sometimes maybe. I guess it was a bit of a combo starter... but it's much better in Brawl.

Really, now that we've started to use enough Nair, now we're not using enough Usmash. Really, it's an absolutely fantastic punishing move.

Hell no,

n64 U-Smash >>>>> brawls.

Have you even played 64 competitively? Mario's U-Smash is one of the most reliable kill moves in the game.
Kills people at much lower percentage than brawl's U-Smash could ever pull.
It's range and priority is much longer and disjointed than it is in brawl.
The only thing good about Mario's U-Smash in brawl is that it has a shorter ending lag.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I do play 64 competitively. I just don't see how 64 Mario's Usmash is better than Brawls. For some reason, I use Brawl Mario's Usmash a helluva a lot more than I use 64 Mario's upsmash (though I don't use the guy often... I'm a Kirby/Ness guy).

 

[:mad:]

This is totally on topic. I mean, we are talking about Mario's Usmash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I hate Mario's Up-smash in 64. It's quite difficult to land outside of the occasional combo into it from like...D-air.

Mario can slide around while charging Up-smash in Brawl, and that IMO is more useful in comparison. And no, Mario's Up-smash clearly has a LOT more range in Brawl. Mario leans his head significantly more to the sides and actually jumps up a bit while Up-smashing in Brawl, so he covers a MUCH bigger angle as he swings his head.

Also, Up-smash out of shield is much more viable in Brawl.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario's Usmash outprioritizes Marth's aerials, just saying.

 

[_Green_]

And no, Mario's Up-smash clearly has a LOT more range in Brawl. Mario leans his head significantly more to the sides and actually jumps up a bit while Up-smashing in Brawl, so he covers a MUCH bigger angle as he swings his head.

Also, Up-smash out of shield is much more viable in Brawl.

lololo, O rly?
Clearly it does not, if anything it's the same at best

The image on the right shows how large Mario's Head increases in 64. Greatly increasing the hit box surrounding him as well, he also jumps at a greater height.
The image on the right shows how disjointed Mario's Up-smash can hit when his big *** head leans to the side, now tell me if U-Smash in brawl has that same range.
Mario's 64 U-smash kills at 75% (tested with Mario on hyrule castle)
90% with good DI or less

And seriously you find Mario's 64 u-smash hard to hit with? It's not that hard to set up at all. It's like setting up Mario's F-smash in brawl except easier (imo)
Not to mention it outprioritzes almost everyone move in the game ( Yes, that even includes Link's and pikachu's D-air).

 

[A2ZOMG]

One more thing.

I forgot to mention. Mario's Up-smash is significantly more laggy in 64 than it is in other games.

And yes, U-smash in Brawl can hit that far. Probably even farther when you add Hyphen Smash charging or reverse Hyphen Smashing.

 

[Dtilt]

Love Usmash, goes through everything.

 

[_Green_]

One more thing.

I forgot to mention. Mario's Up-smash is significantly more laggy in 64 than it is in other games.

And yes, U-smash in Brawl can hit that far. Probably even farther when you add Hyphen Smash charging or reverse Hyphen Smashing.

There is no f’kin way Mario’s U-smash reaches that far. Maybe on his start up back head, but definitely not the front.

Hyphen Smash charging does not increase the range of the attack. It just gives Mario a momentum boost. Even if you are charging make sure, you have a really good set up for it to connect.

Reverse Hyphen smash doesn’t make it any better either. In addition you are moving back away from your opponent slightly. Nullifying Mario’s start up U-smash range compared to 64's.

The reason you use Reverse Hyphen smash is to get the sweet spot of the attack anyway, but I guess It can be good since it's range is larger in his the back head.

And honestly, the lag at the end of Mario’s up-smash shouldn’t matter if you know it’s gonna hit.

Seriously it’s one of the easiest Smashes to connect with in the game. Since, it’s hitbox is disjointed like crazy and comes out fast. All you really have to do is bait the opponent and smash ‘em or smash em’ when your opponent attempts to hurt you. It’s funny, it’s like Mario’s hurtbox get’s smaller when he does it (I would say he has invisiblility frames somewhere but I’m not sure if that’s correct) because he’s so untouchable. It’s the main reason why it’s priority is so high, like I said before, barely anything beats this move.

Plus the fact that it kills insanely early, makes it the best, reliable, killing smash moves in the game.

Everyone has different opinions, but imo I love it so much more in 64 than the wimpy one in brawl. Nothing’s gonna change that.

 

[Judge Judy]

The lag the Usmash had in 64 made it a lot more risky than the one in Brawl which is practically risk-free. I can't really say which one is better, but I personally prefer the one in Brawl because I find it to be more versatile.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I'm fine with 64 conversations as long as it's a side conversation... which it isn't. Talk about Brawl also, guys. After this post, anything that talks about 64 (or Melee) Mario without anything about Brawl Mario will get a spam infraction.

So, to get back on topic... somebody needs to make a list of thing that Mario's Usmash goes through -- I think it's almost like every aerial in the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just watch out for stuff like DDD and G&W's D-air which has effing huge range and yeah. Mario's Up-smash is good against everything else for the most part if you have the timing down. You should just Up-smash out of shield against the aforementioned two.

 

[Judge Judy]

Just watch out for stuff like DDD and G&W's D-air which has effing huge range and yeah. Mario's Up-smash is good against everything else for the most part if you have the timing down. You should just Up-smash out of shield against the aforementioned two.

It actually goes through G&W's Dair, not sure about DDD's though.

 

[:mad:]

His dair's a huge pain to get around, because most of them just dtilt right when they land.

 

[Judge Judy]

His dair's a huge pain to get around, because most of them just dtilt right when they land.

You could try caping it, using FLUDD on it, or using Usmash on it...wait, you are talking about G&W's Dair right?

 

[SkylerOcon]

Summary of Usmash:

To say it quickly, use this move as a defense against aerial approaches. This is its best use.

To give you a longer description, always take advantage of this moves range, priority, and power. It has decent kill potential (120%, I think?), very good priority, and the range is awesome. It has relatively low lag, but can still be punished. Abuse this move.

It's good out of Utilt chains. I've discovered that after hitting two or three times just letting the opponent fall and then up smashing works. It normally does more damage than a normall Utilt chain.

I think this move also goes through the tornado. Awesome.

Anything else you guys want to add?

 

[hippiedude92]

You should also add reverse DAC too as well. It slides momentarily, the back of his head is known to have a bigger hitbox/range/priority overall better. That's if you want to approach with it and punish stuff like airdodges or get in for quick surprises. That's just a quick add on xD

 

[SkylerOcon]

So... it's safe to assume up smash is done.

 

[CPU?]

Summary of Usmash:

To say it quickly, use this move as a defense against aerial approaches. This is its best use.

To give you a longer description, always take advantage of this moves range, priority, and power. It has decent kill potential (120%, I think?), very good priority, and the range is awesome. It has relatively low lag, but can still be punished. Abuse this move.

It's good out of Utilt chains. I've discovered that after hitting two or three times just letting the opponent fall and then up smashing works. It normally does more damage than a normall Utilt chain.

I think this move also goes through the tornado. Awesome.

Anything else you guys want to add?

add how it overpowers G&W's dair plz =D

 

[:mad:]

I'm taking a brief break, this should be up and running soon.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Actually, it's up an running now.

With permission from Straked, I will be handling this thread until his return.

 

[CPU?]

so what are we discussing now?

 

[SkylerOcon]

Forward smash.

So, get to discussing, guys! I put most of my thoughts in the 'descriptions' section of the OP.

 

[Judge Judy]

Fsmash = huge range and good KO power

Fsmash should be saved as a finisher; try hard not to stale this move.

 

[t3h n00b]

I don't know if this is remotely useful, as I don't main Mario, but I remember getting ***** by dash attack>fsmash. I doubt it's a true combo, although I guess you would be the board to know, but is that useful? Worked against me well. It was wifi though.

 

[Judge Judy]

I don't know if this is remotely useful, as I don't main Mario, but I remember getting ***** by dash attack>fsmash. I doubt it's a true combo, although I guess you would be the board to know, but is that useful? Worked against me well. It was wifi though.

You'd have a better chance of landing fireball/x2fireball to Fsmash, and no, Dash atk to Fsmash is not a true combo.

 

[t3h n00b]

Is it effective at all though? I think it happened in the 50-90% range, and I got knocked behind Mario into a reverse fsmash. I probably could have airdodged, but it seemed pretty useful, and maybe that's just what that guy does, he seemed to go for dash attacks a lot.

 

[Judge Judy]

Is it effective at all though? I think it happened in the 50-90% range, and I got knocked behind Mario into a reverse fsmash. I probably could have airdodged, but it seemed pretty useful, and maybe that's just what that guy does, he seemed to go for dash attacks a lot.

Dash atk has a few IASA frames near the end of the move and the knockback trajectory makes it a decent juggling move at low percents, however, the move itself is not very safe since it can be easily shield grabbed and it doesn't provide nearly enough stun to pull off a 15 frame Fsmash as a reliable follow-up.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I know that Bair to Fsmash is a true combo, assuming you land the Bair incredibly close to the ground.

 

[CPU?]

I know that Bair to Fsmash is a true combo, assuming you land the Bair incredibly close to the ground.

yes i love to do that but it only works at low % because at higher %'s the bair does to much knockback before you can get the f-smash off.

 

[hippiedude92]

Alot of the majority marios will be SHing double/single bair to a fsmash. Fsmash IS THE BREAD AND BUTTER when it comes to killing. It has the most massive range i have ever seen in my life, it outranges marths fsmash, the only downside is that, it has some starting and ending lag.

 

[CPU?]

mostly starting lag though..

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Alot of the majority marios will be SHing double/single bair to a fsmash. Fsmash IS THE BREAD AND BUTTER when it comes to killing. It has the most massive range i have ever seen in my life, it outranges marths fsmash, the only downside is that, it has some starting and ending lag.

I don't do SH Bair to Fsmash, because I save my Fsmash for the kill, I prefer to do other things, like Ftilt or something. Honestly, I don't use my Fsmash at all except till' kill percents.
But I guess that's mostly me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-smash gives Mario everything people say he lacks. Raw range and power.

At first glance, this attack doesn't look like it has very good range. However further inspection of this move shows that during the charge stance, Mario leans back a lot before attacking, and when you check the range from the point at which he leans back from, you'll discover you actually outdistance attacks like Marth's F-smash. Also notable is the stutterstep F-smash, which basically makes you start F-smash without the leanback and thus fully abuses the raw range you have on this attack.

This attack is Mario's ticket to killing someone that's in the 100% range (depending on stage position). What's great about this move compared to how it was in Melee is that the sourspot is significantly stronger in this game and KOs at exactly 10% higher than the sweetspot, which is fairly minor. Even if you don't kill with the sweetspot, this attack does so much damage that stale moves on this attack isn't a huge issue.

Basically if you know this attack is going to hit, by all means hit with it. You get maximum results from landing this attack.

 

[Judge Judy]

Fsmash is good move but I wouldn't overuse it, no matter how appealing that range is; 15 frames is not fast, plus you want to keep the move fresh as a finisher.

 

[A2ZOMG]

IMO, F-smash it not reliable enough to the point where you want to bother saving it. People will be expecting it to an extent, especially if you went off spamming Up-smashes on them. Just use it if you know they are open since you don't want to miss out on that big hit regardless.

F-smash does 18% fresh sweetspotted uncharged. That's really good and if you are able to hit with this a lot, your opponent is gonna die eventually. Not necessarily from the F-smash itself, but because it does so much damage it also makes it much easier for Mario to KO with his other moves. In a sense, it actually increases his options.