A new idea for items in competitive play

[[Corn]]

The exclusion of items always put me away a bit form the competitive community. The game is not as fun to me without them. If I ran them though I would turn off all the power ups and bob-ombs though, just basically anything that can give you benefit by just walking into it rather than from how you use it.

We dont exlude all items because they aren't fun, we turn them off because they add to randomness.


Nearly every single sport/game/anything that is competitive tries to encourage skill and reduce luck in every chance they can get.
We have the bonus of being in a video game that allows for some luck to literally be manually shut off.

Game changing in a positive sense; if you use it right, it can help you, but if your opponent uses it better, you're screwed.

Items of the right sort are a benefit as they add another level of strategy to the battle depending on how they are used and on what character is using them.

If I get it/luckily spawn close enough to it, I have a large advantage. If I dont get it/my opponent lucks out they will have a large advantage.

Its not the fact that item play is a skill, its the fact that the item spawning in itself is skillless and luckbased.

This isnt counting into the fact that some characters have attributes that prevent them from moving fast.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The exclusion of items always put me away a bit form the competitive community. The game is not as fun to me without them. If I ran them though I would turn off all the power ups and bob-ombs though, just basically anything that can give you benefit by just walking into it rather than from how you use it.

That's kinda what the brawl thing did.

But hey, what would people do is competitive 3DS did items and wii u didn't? Two extremely similar games to finally see how much it might effect things side by side, this could be the HUGE chance to allow players who like items play to have a shot (since people want the wii u to be the main competitive console or whatnot).

And definitely at least turn off the crazy items. Seriously, there's been good tournaments with items on and can be fun to watch depending. If it turned out to fail miserably, then you change it.

 

[smashbrolink]

That's kinda what the brawl thing did.

But hey, what would people do is competitive 3DS did items and wii u didn't? Two extremely similar games to finally see how much it might effect things side by side, this could be the HUGE chance to allow players who like items play to have a shot (since people want the wii u to be the main competitive console or whatnot).

And definitely at least turn off the crazy items. Seriously, there's been good tournaments with items on and can be fun to watch depending. If it turned out to fail miserably, then you change it.

That's where I'm coming from, too. There's plenty of items on the current list that could easily be incorporated.

 

[LiteralGrill]

That's where I'm coming from, too. There's plenty of items on the current list that could easily be incorporated.

Now, I'll be dead honest here, I'm not a super items play supporter. However, there has been SUCH a demand for items on events that it's time someone hosts them. That's the biggest issue there, you need hosts willing to do items on tournaments. And with people wanting numbers and having friends come and such, they do what those people want. I think you could have an equally large items scene as well if people invested time and energy into it. And if there is a huge player demand for it, I'll bite and go for it.

 

[[Corn]]

Now, I'll be dead honest here, I'm not a super items play supporter. However, there has been SUCH a demand for items on events that it's time someone hosts them. That's the biggest issue there, you need hosts willing to do items on tournaments. And with people wanting numbers and having friends come and such, they do what those people want. I think you could have an equally large items scene as well if people invested time and energy into it. And if there is a huge player demand for it, I'll bite and go for it.

Im genuinely curious, what major events have their players asking for items to be on?

 

[smashbrolink]

If I get it/luckily spawn close enough to it, I have a large advantage. If I dont get it/my opponent lucks out they will have a large advantage.

Its not the fact that item play is a skill, its the fact that the item spawning in itself is skillless and luckbased.

This isnt counting into the fact that some characters have attributes that prevent them from moving fast.

Not so large an advantage that you cannot be countered.
Hence, skill is still present.
Items do not detract from your own skill. It's your own skill, in fact, that makes these particular fair-play items useful in the first place. Some even choose to ignore some items when they wouldn't benefit them as well as another character.
Also, whether a character can move fast or not isn't such a huge deal.
If an item distracts a faster character from the threat of the opponent, in fact, then it can turn into an opportunity for the slower character to focus on them while their attention is focused on the item itself.

Fair-play items factor into strategy. They add a new element to the game that only goes to further how well a player demonstrates their critical-thinking skills in the midst of combat.
They're not the huge game-destroying issue that people are trying to make them out to be.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Im genuinely curious, what major events have their players asking for items to be on?

Why do they need to ask at major events? These forums have always had people asking for items on and leaving because almost no one would provide. Most major events dont have items on, so why would tons of items on supporters show?

It's not a fair place to get data from at a bare minimum.

 

[smashbrolink]

Now, I'll be dead honest here, I'm not a super items play supporter. However, there has been SUCH a demand for items on events that it's time someone hosts them. That's the biggest issue there, you need hosts willing to do items on tournaments. And with people wanting numbers and having friends come and such, they do what those people want. I think you could have an equally large items scene as well if people invested time and energy into it. And if there is a huge player demand for it, I'll bite and go for it.

Sign me up for that list.
I'll gladly get both version of the game and join up in any tournament you set up. Items just add more depth to the things you can see in a match and in the hilarity we can experience.^_^

In fact, when the game drops, if no one sets up an items-on tourney, I'll gladly participate in building one and opening it up for a weekend.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sign me up for that list.
I'll gladly get both version of the game and join up in any tournament you set up. Items just add more depth to the things you can see in a match and in the hilarity we can experience.^_^

In fact, when the game drops, if no one sets up an items-on tourney, I'll gladly participate in building one and opening it up for a weekend.

That's where people need to start. People who want items need to go to smash events and whatnot and HOST some and bring their friends along.

However, the important thing would be for both sides not to be jerks to each other. Some people like items, some people don't. I think we understand each side has its own tastes right? Then let each person have that opinion and enjoy the game your way.

 

[smashbrolink]

That's where people need to start. People who want items need to go to smash events and whatnot and HOST some and bring their friends along.

However, the important thing would be for both sides not to be jerks to each other. Some people like items, some people don't. I think we understand each side has its own tastes right? Then let each person have that opinion and enjoy the game your way.

I'd probably join both types of tournament, personally.
I enjoy items more than not, but that doesn't mean I can't play ball in another player's court and have fun at the same time.

 

[peeup]

I really like this thread.

 

[[Corn]]

Not so large an advantage that you cannot be encountered.
Hence, skill is still present.
Items do not detract from your own skill. It's your own skill, in fact, that makes these particular fair-play items useful in the first place. Some even choose to ignore some items when they wouldn't benefit them as well as another character.
Also, whether a character can move fast or not isn't such a huge deal.
If an item distracts a faster character from the threat of the opponent, in fact, then it can turn into an opportunity for the slower character to focus on them while their attention is focused on the item itself.

Fair-play items factor into strategy. They add a new element to the game that only goes to further how well a player demonstrates their critical-thinking skills in the midst of combat.
They're not the huge game-destroying issue that people are trying to make them out to be.

What does:
"Not so large an advantage that you cannot be encountered." mean?

I cannot post anything else because you lost me entirely on that.

Why do they need to ask at major events? These forums have always had people asking for items on and leaving because almost no one would provide. Most major events dont have items on, so why would tons of items on supporters show?

It's not a fair place to get data from at a bare minimum.

It is completely fair to ask top players at major events if they want items or not in the same way asking a top tennis player how they feel about the quality of the court or the equiptment they use. They dictate the rules for their gameplay. Unless it can be supported and such by people willing to play with that ruleset will remain as it is, and quite successful at that.

 

[peeup]

Can we like make a social group or something with people who would be willing to organize an item tourney or two?

 

[Aidebit]

I'm okay with items-on side tournies, but only if the items-on and the no items people don't act like jerks to each other.

 

[LiteralGrill]

What does:
"Not so large an advantage that you cannot be encountered." mean?

I cannot post anything else because you lost me entirely on that.





It is completely fair to ask top players at major events if they want items or not in the same way asking a top tennis player how they feel about the quality of the court or the equiptment they use. They dictate the rules for their gameplay. Unless it can be supported and such by people willing to play with that ruleset will remain as it is, and quite successful at that.

What if there were a large subset of people willing to create an entire scene for items play though? Why not allow that to happen? Does it hurt those who dont like items but would still have non item tournaments to attend? All the top players aren't the ones asking for items, but you might find the items on scene has its own top list of players if it could successfully form. And in all honesty, I can't find a reason to not let people who want items on to not have items on events and have their own scene based around them, especially as some people will play in both and more people playing together and more matches for people at events can only be a good thing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can we like make a social group or something with people who would be willing to organize an item tourney or two?

If someone made the group, I'd be more then willing to help. I plan on pumping up the 3DS community and if a huge bunch of people don't want items? Fine. BUT That doesn't stop me from taking the time to organize items play for those who like them.

 

[smashbrolink]

What does:
"Not so large an advantage that you cannot be encountered." mean?

I cannot post anything else because you lost me entirely on that.





It is completely fair to ask top players at major events if they want items or not in the same way asking a top tennis player how they feel about the quality of the court or the equiptment they use. They dictate the rules for their gameplay. Unless it can be supported and such by people willing to play with that ruleset will remain as it is, and quite successful at that.

#1
I meant to say Countered, not Encountered, but I digress.
The fair-use items list.
If a player cannot counter a thrown banana by dodging or catching it then timing their throw back to hit the opponent with it, or use that moment when they're going for it to land an attack they'd normally avoid, then I would question how good a player is at reading and reacting to an opponents actions.


#2 It wouldn't be a fair place to ask.
Why?
Because the majority of those players come to those tournaments under the expectation that items will not be in use.

It would be like a glue salesman and a staircase salesman vying for the business of a slinky.
The staircase salesman is obviously going to get the attention because he knows how to sell the right thing to the crowd.

It's the wrong place to ask because the crowd that hates items is already there, in other words.

Asking here on the forums, where more than just players that play by the established ruleset visit, is the more fair place to ask around, if we were going to start up a dedicated items-tournament group, because we'll get more people here that will be open to the idea than we would at an official event where everyone that has shown up already shows up with the expectation of no items.

 

[[Corn]]

What if there were a large subset of people willing to create an entire scene for items play though? Why not allow that to happen? Does it hurt those who dont like items but would still have non item tournaments to attend? All the top players aren't the ones asking for items, but you might find the items on scene has its own top list of players if it could successfully form. And in all honesty, I can't find a reason to not let people who want items on to not have items on events and have their own scene based around them, especially as some people will play in both and more people playing together and more matches for people at events can only be a good thing.

I have no issues with people creating or organizing their own smash ruleset with Items and such. No reason at all to be a jerk for people having opinions or ideas that they can make happen.

I will however, correct mistakes or incorrect opinions based on a faulty understanding of why a large group of players enjoy/like having them off. People who play comp play for money and practice extremely hard for their level of skill, heck I really enjoy beating people based on correct movement/reads/stratagies. Fact is randomness detracts from skill playing a factor and making something less skillful automatically makes it less competitive, people who play for money or pure skill will gladly turn off a mechanic even if it may add new elements of gameplay/fun if the overall result is a higher skill level with less random chance. This is something people tend not to understand.

#1
I meant to say Countered, not Encountered, but I digress.
The fair-use items list.
If a player cannot counter a thrown banana by dodging or catching it then timing their throw back to hit the opponent with it, or use that moment when they're going for it to land an attack they'd normally avoid, then I would question how good a player is at reading and reacting to an opponents actions.


#2 It wouldn't be a fair place to ask.
Why?
Because the majority of those players come to those tournaments under the expectation that items will not be in use.

It would be like a glue salesman and a staircase salesman vying for the business of a slinky.
The staircase salesman is obviously going to get the attention because he knows how to sell the right thing to the crowd.

It's the wrong place to ask because the crowd that hates items is already there, in other words.


Asking here on the forums, where more than just players that play by the established ruleset visit, is the more fair place to ask around, if we were going to start up a dedicated items-tournament group, because we'll get more people here that will be open to the idea than we would at an official event where everyone that has shown up already shows up with the expectation of no items.

Look above for my stance on items.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I have no issues with people creating or organizing their own smash ruleset with Items and such. No reason at all to be a jerk for people having opinions or ideas that they can make happen.

I will however, correct mistakes or incorrect opinions based on a faulty understanding of why a large group of players enjoy/like having them off. People who play comp play for money and practice extremely hard for their level of skill, heck I really enjoy beating people based on correct movement/reads/stratagies. Fact is randomness detracts from skill playing a factor and making something less skillful automatically makes it less competitive, people who play for money or pure skill will gladly turn off a mechanic even if it may add new elements of gameplay/fun if the overall result is a higher skill level with less random chance. This is something people tend not to understand.




Look above for my stance on items.

I understand how people feel, but the other side feels they add even more. No one will ever finish/solve/win this argument. It wont happen. It's as pointless as Melee vs. Brawl. there comes a point where people need to take their opinions and let them go. No one is forcing it on one person or another, and we can both have what we want. that should be good enough for everybody since we all get what we want in the end.

 

[[Corn]]

I understand how people feel, but the other side feels they add even more. No one will ever finish/solve/win this argument. It wont happen. It's as pointless as Melee vs. Brawl. there comes a point where people need to take their opinions and let them go. No one is forcing it on one person or another, and we can both have what we want. that should be good enough for everybody since we all get what we want in the end.

Nothing I said was hateful towards anyone nor was I trying to encure an argument.

One side likes skill to be the sole means of victory: No items
One side likes skill to be the main reason of victory, but doesnt care about adding a small amount of luck for an added gameplay mechanic: Restricted Item Use


I just dislike when people dont understand facts.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Nothing I said was hateful towards anyone nor was I trying to encure an argument.

One side likes skill to be the sole means of victory: No items
One side likes skill to be the main reason of victory, but doesnt care about adding a small amount of luck for an added gameplay mechanic: Restricted Item Use


I just dislike when people dont understand facts.

But see, those people think that added luck could translate into skill and isn't as much about luck, and I got a feeling you wont be changing their minds anytime soon and some people have better arguments for that then others too. It might be tough for you to "win" that argument.

 

[[Corn]]

But see, those people think that added luck could translate into skill and isn't as much about luck, and I got a feeling you wont be changing their minds anytime soon and some people have better arguments for that then others too. It might be tough for you to "win" that argument.

Luck by nature cannot add to skill, this is a fact.

The definition of luck:
"Success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions"

 

[kikaru]

Hmmm.. here's an idea:

There's a menu option where you can select a certain number of items to be available at your disposal anytime during the match. Once you are matched on Wi-Fi you and your opponent are able to see each other's selected item sets. Each player must then select the items that their opponent will have available to them throughout the match.

There could also be an option where you opt out random items such as Pokeballs, Assist Trophies, Crates, etc.

You would utilize the touchpad and access the item in that it would drop where ever you were standing. (Think Super Mario World) Perhaps a cooldown timer could be utilized in that you must wait x seconds before activating your next item.

 

[smashbrolink]

I have no issues with people creating or organizing their own smash ruleset with Items and such. No reason at all to be a jerk for people having opinions or ideas that they can make happen.

I will however, correct mistakes or incorrect opinions based on a faulty understanding of why a large group of players enjoy/like having them off. People who play comp play for money and practice extremely hard for their level of skill, heck I really enjoy beating people based on correct movement/reads/stratagies. Fact is randomness detracts from skill playing a factor and making something less skillful automatically makes it less competitive, people who play for money or pure skill will gladly turn off a mechanic even if it may add new elements of gameplay/fun if the overall result is a higher skill level with less random chance. This is something people tend not to understand.




Look above for my stance on items.

I disagree with the statement that the fair-use items already outlined detract from skill in any meaningful way.

 

[[Corn]]

I disagree with the statement that the fair-use items already outlined detract from skill in any meaningful way.

Item spawning locations and times are reletively random, wouldnt you agree?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Luck by nature cannot add to skill, this is a fact.

The definition of luck:
"Success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions"

See, people who normally do items play don't think it has these luck elements.

It might have em, it might not, both sides honesty have had amazing arguments on it in MANY threads on here and even in PSAS where I come from. We could even turn HAZARDS OFF!!! The thing that I think many smash players would dream of... Yet many people, probably half or so wanted them on still, and those arguments too held merit. So, since no one will ever be 100% able to conclusively convince everyone else on this subject, I would say both sides have hypothesis or theories on how it makes the game work out.

It would take some serious hardcore testing to see what happened in the end, which will either not happen, or we might take the opportunity with 2 smash games to try.

 

[[Corn]]

See, people who normally do items play don't think it has these luck elements.

It might have em, it might not, both sides honesty have had amazing arguments on it in MANY threads on here and even in PSAS where I come from. We could even turn HAZARDS OFF!!! The thing that I think many smash players would dream of... Yet many people, probably half or so wanted them on still, and those arguments too held merit. So, since no one will ever be 100% able to conclusively convince everyone else on this subject, I would say both sides have hypothesis or theories on how it makes the game work out.

It would take some serious hardcore testing to see what happened in the end, which will either not happen, or we might take the opportunity with 3 smash games to try.

We can turn stages off, not hazards. The only reason why we have stages with hazards is to reward stage counterpicking while at the same time increasing the number of stages. I can almost guarantee that if we had the complete option to turn random hazards off, we would.

But yes, people can do whatever they want.

 

[smashbrolink]

Item spawning locations and times are reletively random, wouldnt you agree?

The randomness doesn't detract from player skill, is what I was getting at.
I don't care how random that banana is, it won't do jack for someone that can't read my movement patterns well enough to hit me with it.
It takes skill to make the fair-use items on that list effective; they don't just hit things on their own.

 

[LiteralGrill]

We can turn stages off, not hazards. The only reason why we have stages with hazards is to reward stage counterpicking while at the same time increasing the number of stages. I can almost guarantee that if we had the complete option to turn random hazards off, we would.

But yes, people can do whatever they want.

And we know how the stage debate goes too, maybe that'll change this time around with a strong testing ground, or maybe it wont. And see, we HAD that option, and even then many didn't agree to turn them off. It was so divided it was curious, and both side actually argued VERY well too. Will never know about hazards on/off in PSAS

 

[Aidebit]

Wouldn't Sonic be really good with items because of his speed?

 

[smashbrolink]

Wouldn't Sonic be really good with items because of his speed?

Not if he's so focused on the items he's going for that he doesn't see a nasty power strike coming, or if he can't hit the opponent with whatever he's picked up.

 

[[Corn]]

The randomness doesn't detract from player skill, is what I was getting at.
I don't care how random that banana is, it won't do jack for someone that can't read my movement patterns well enough to hit me with it.
It takes skill to make the fair-use items on that list effective; they don't just hit things on their own.

Ive already stated that something being random has to detract from skill. Random is the polar opposite of skill. Its literally in the dictionary.

Item control is a skill, requiring the other player to move or play differently because you happened to gain an advantage not based on skill and he didnt isnt.

 

[Aidebit]

Not if he's so focused on the items he's going for that he doesn't see a nasty power strike coming, or if he can't hit the opponent with whatever he's picked up.

I don't think the first scenario would happen, and, he probably wouldn't run across the stage for a useless item.

 

[smashbrolink]

Ive already stated that something being random has to detract from skill. Random is the polar opposite of skill. Its literally in the dictionary.

Item control is a skill, requiring the other player to move or play differently because you happened to gain an advantage not based on skill and he didnt isnt.

It doesn't HAVE to detract from skill, and in this case it doesn't, since it's not the random effect that is hitting the opponent, but the skill of the player using whatever said randomness spawned.

You can't control the spawn, but you CAN control how whatever spawned is used, and that figures into skill.

Dealing with new variables in an opponent's abilities is no different than dealing with a player who switches playstyles in the middle of the match; you've got to have the skill to cope with that sudden variable, that unexpected randomness to the way the match is playing out, or you likely won't survive.

There's no issue with having those items on. If you can't dodge a tossed banana, then you have just as big a chance of not being able to dodge one of the projectiles that other characters throw at you straight out of their own movesets, let alone a quick physical strike.

 

[smashbrolink]

I don't think the first scenario would happen, and, he probably wouldn't run across the stage for a useless item.

It's happened more than once in matches between me and my friends.
In fact, more than once it's allowed me to not only hit them, but to knock the item out of their hands for my own use.
I'm guessing you haven't watched many item-on matches, if you've never seen it happen before.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The "Item about to spawn" thing actually looks like a really cool idea for both casual and competitive play. I saw some sort of stage mod a long while back where somebody was actually adjusting stage spawn locations in Brawl or something but I can't find it anymore.

I think it'd be more proper if the items were randomized until you saw what they were in advance though, kind of like Tetris.

 

[smashbrolink]

The "Item about to spawn" thing actually looks like a really cool idea for both casual and competitive play. I saw some sort of stage mod a long while back where somebody was actually adjusting stage spawn locations in Brawl or something but I can't find it anymore.

I think it'd be more proper if the items were randomized until you saw what they were in advance though, kind of like Tetris.

I think I could get into that, too.
Problem is, where would the indicator be?
It couldn't be up on the middle of the screen if we wanted to keep it from distracting players by blocking their line-of-sight, but it would have to be something that people would still notice.

 

[Aidebit]

It's happened more than once in matches between me and my friends.
In fact, more than once it's allowed me to not only hit them, but to knock the item out of their hands for my own use.
I'm guessing you haven't watched many item-on matches, if you've never seen it happen before.

I always play some items-on with my sister, and that doesn't happen.
I guess if both of you are dashing, and one of you does a dash attack to pick it up, the other could punish. But I think that smart play would allow Sonic to just get all the items, maybe ranged attacks could punish, but picking up an item isn't that laggy, and you could always catch it from the air.

 

[smashbrolink]

I always play some items-on with my sister, and that doesn't happen.
I guess if both of you are dashing, and one of you does a dash attack to pick it up, the other could punish. But I think that smart play would allow Sonic to just get all the items, maybe ranged attacks could punish, but picking up an item isn't that laggy, and you could always catch it from the air.

Assuming it hasn't landed. If it has landed, Sonic has the option to dash grab it, which can still leave him vulnerable depending on the stage, or stop to pick it up, which, again, leaves him vulnerable for a moment.
No, it's not that laggy, but I've had more success than failures in scoring a hit on someone focused on obtaining an item, and I've seen it more than a few times in small local tournaments.

 

[Aidebit]

Assuming it hasn't landed. If it has landed, Sonic has the option to dash grab it, which can still leave him vulnerable depending on the stage, or stop to pick it up, which, again, leaves him vulnerable for a moment.
No, it's not that laggy, but I've had more success than failures in scoring a hit on someone focused on obtaining an item, and I've seen it more than a few times in small local tournaments.

Can't you catch grounded items from the air by pressing Z?