A More "Casual" Game

[Xpressions X]

I know there are a few posts that surround the subject of Smash Brothers Brawl and its apparent downgrade in the department of technical emphasis and it subsequently being geared towards a more casual audience. Many people see this as a bad thing but I don’t see why. Let me get to my point before I get flamed about there being a billion posts about why Brawl losing technical ability is a bad thing. I feel that IF (there are most likely going to be new applications seeing as people were looking for them even at the demo of the game) the game did lose technical applications it would not affect the smash community in a negative way, in fact I believe it will do the opposite. Here are my key points as to why the game losing technical applications is not as evil as some make it out to be

1. Some have argued that the technical parts of the game i.e. wavedashing, shffling, waveshining, etc. were the reasons as to why melee has withstood the test of time. I agree with this point to a degree in the fact that the discoveries of the new techs brought a new flavor to melee, but I do not believe that the technical aspect of the game is what allowed melee to be such a playable game for such a long time. Many of us played melee for years before techs were even found let alone before they became an important part of play. The only way I could understand a person saying that technical ability is the reason why a game like melee and soon to be Brawl lasts is if they recently joined the Smash Community. Now the technical aspect did bring a new flavor to the game that did help with sparking interest in the game but that mainly had to do with the fact that the new techs were just that NEW. If those techs were placed in the hand manual and everyone new about them when melee was released they would not have sparked as much interest as they did.

2. Another key point to take note of on this subject is the fact that the smash formula has barely changed. Yes you do get K.Oed at higher percentages and the characters are more floaty (at least form what was reported from the E for all demo) but the simple mechanics that made us fall in love with the game are still there, it is still a unique fighter in its genre which bases emphasis on platforming and fighting. Smash 64 is what started this whole craze and in that version there was a limited set of B moves, the emphasis on technical ability was much less important as compared to its Melee counterpart, and there was a 12 character roster. Now of course in this day and age a game must have much more depth then that to survive let alone become a blockbuster hit. But those simple mechanics are what drew a lot of us “hardcore” smashers to the series. Wavedashing, moonwalking, pillaring, etc. were just added bonuses that we decided to exploit to give the game more depth, not to say that that is a bad thing but it is to say that those aspects are things we as gamers have placed into the game. These techs and glitches that we use were not part of the original formula that has made smash such a compelling game to play.

3. A lot of people state that the removal of wasvedashing is the cause of the debate of whether smash has been nerfed in the technical department or not. Wavedashing is a glitch that was found in Melee point blank. Beyond popular belief that wavedashing is not a glitch there is plenty of evidence that proves otherwise. Wavedashing is a tech, but it is not a “true tech” a true tech is a tech that the game makers and developers deliberately implement into a game i.e. the air dodge, the side step, and the roll in melee. Wavedashing is a “false tech” a tech that grew out of a broken game mechanic. Proof of this position lies in the character animations. With true techs such as the air dodge each character has a unique animation that accompanies their frames of invulnerability, Mewtwo disappears, Peach spins, Marth opens up to the side. With wavedashing each character has the same animation which only differs slightly due to the character’s initial unique falling, landing, and air dodge postures. The length of the slide differs due to each character’s inherent levels of friction. Each of these elements are separate from the actual wavedashing animation. The fact that wavedashing has aperantly been removed is also proof that it was not meant to be a “true tech” but rather that it was a “false tech.” Also as a side note in the Melee official strategy guide the true techs were mentioned and no false techs appeared. With that being said it makes sense for us as the smash community to be upset because of the removal of some of the tech that we did find such as wavedashing. Wavedashing became a very important and intriguing part of the smash tournament scene and it is somewhat of a slap in the face that Sakurai did not implement this tech into Brawl. The fact remains that Sakurai is an amazing artist, and most amazing artist make their works of art for themselves and no one else it is evident that Sakurai is leaving some options of the development of the game to us (the character polls) but at the same time he is making it so the game is played the way he wants it to be played. Sakurai is going to take out what he feels is an imperfection to his masterpiece, or a part of the game that puts a big gap between player, it is also the reason why some moves have been nerfed or changed.…. Let the flaming begin

4. My final point is simple. Is bringing smash back to its simple roots all bad? Think about it, before any of us knew about the commonly used techs in Melee wasn’t it more exciting to find someone who played smash and play them without worrying about pawning them because they are considered a nOob because they knew nothing about techs which are apart of a very small part of the smash community. When we didn’t know about techs and we challenged one another the game was based on mind-games, fakes, and smart decisions, and no one could give the famous Street Fighter excuse of “ If my finger didn’t slip when I was trying to do down side down side up back down side, I would have won.” Smash is a game that is based more on mind games in the first place and the mind games themselves brought enough variability to the game that made each fight unique and broad scale. What techs did was it narrowed out the great from the good yes, but it also narrowed down who you saw at tournaments. Before you would see most people who played smash in a community come to a tournament, but now people are intimidated to go because they don’t know how to wave dash, or because “shffling is too hard.” If the game became oriented around mind games again rather than technical ability the game would still have players that would surpass the rest but it would also expand the tournament scene. And if that’s the direction Sakurai is trying to go then I agree with losing some technical aspects of the game.

 

[Dr. UnKnown]

good topic
but this has the potential for a lock

 

[Santini]

I agree with you. In fact, I just discovered the advanced techniques like 6 months ago. But during those 6 years where I didn't know about them, I never stopped having fun with it.

 

[legendofme]

Yeah See Yeah Muggsy.

 

[Gomolka]

good topic
but this has the potential for a lock

lol your sig is awesome

As for this person's first post here in the smash world forums. Uhmmm.. good job? There have been >9000 posts like this... so yeah. Most likely going to be closed

 

[NotaModerator]

I agree. i didn't know about techs for a long time, but the game was still fun, and i got decently good without them.

 

[Hippochinfat]

people who say its less technical should get a swift kick in the balls. We lose wavedashing and gain a plethora of new techs.

 

[Nicktendo]

Im glad some are getting taken out, I want it to be more casual

 

[Xpressions X]

Yea,it might get locked but I feel there is originality in the final point of my discussion, and hopefully that will keep it open.

 

[Jigglymaster]

This dosn't mean that we won't find new false techs in brawl. It was the same when Melee came out. None of us have played the real game and only 5% of us got to play the Demo game for only 3 days. Just to tell you I could care less about advanced techs because my main dosn't need them. All I do is constant B airs and rest combos.

 

[PyroRyuken]

The competitve nature of the game won't change if the techs are taken out. So I really don't mind that the techs are gone. I used them a lot for melee, but I feel like getting a fresh start.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Although I used advanced techs with my other characters by instinct my best was Jiggly and I did just fine w/o wavedashing or SHFFLing because Jiggly hardly uses them. And now because they've been taken away from everybody else, it makes it that much easier for me to beat them. The only way is if Jiggly gets nerfed or isn't in the game.

 

[Xpressions X]

^^ you def don't sound like a jigglypuff user LOL.

 

[Keitaro]

He beat me in tourney

I just believe that although those advance techs won't be in the game, new ones definitely will and some have already been found out after only 3 days of E For All play. Too many people believe the game won't be as competitve when it should be as if not more competitve now. They haven't even played it yet. I think too many assumptions are being made about a game that has yet to even come out yet and people should just wait and see.

 

[Super_alex2]

Well the main arguement is that Nintendo would be trying to appeal to the casual audience, while focusing less on the long time hardcore player.

 

[GreenKirby]

I wish people would stop beating that Dead Horse.

And what's with the Falcon Punch sigs

 

[Sliq]

I know there are a few posts that surround the subject of Smash Brothers Brawl and its apparent downgrade in the department of technical emphasis and it subsequently being geared towards a more casual audience. Many people see this as a bad thing but I don’t see why. Let me get to my point before I get flamed about there being a billion posts about why Brawl losing technical ability is a bad thing. I feel that IF (there are most likely going to be new applications seeing as people were looking for them even at the demo of the game) the game did lose technical applications it would not affect the smash community in a negative way, in fact I believe it will do the opposite. Here are my key points as to why the game losing technical applications is not as evil as some make it out to be

1. Some have argued that the technical parts of the game i.e. wavedashing, shffling, waveshining, etc. were the reasons as to why melee has withstood the test of time. I agree with this point to a degree in the fact that the discoveries of the new techs brought a new flavor to melee, but I do not believe that the technical aspect of the game is what allowed melee to be such a playable game for such a long time. Many of us played melee for years before techs were even found let alone before they became an important part of play. The only way I could understand a person saying that technical ability is the reason why a game like melee and soon to be Brawl lasts is if they recently joined the Smash Community. Now the technical aspect did bring a new flavor to the game that did help with sparking interest in the game but that mainly had to do with the fact that the new techs were just that NEW. If those techs were placed in the hand manual and everyone new about them when melee was released they would not have sparked as much interest as they did.

2. Another key point to take note of on this subject is the fact that the smash formula has barely changed. Yes you do get K.Oed at higher percentages and the characters are more floaty (at least form what was reported from the E for all demo) but the simple mechanics that made us fall in love with the game are still there, it is still a unique fighter in its genre which bases emphasis on platforming and fighting. Smash 64 is what started this whole craze and in that version there was a limited set of B moves, the emphasis on technical ability was much less important as compared to its Melee counterpart, and there was a 12 character roster. Now of course in this day and age a game must have much more depth then that to survive let alone become a blockbuster hit. But those simple mechanics are what drew a lot of us “hardcore” smashers to the series. Wavedashing, moonwalking, pillaring, etc. were just added bonuses that we decided to exploit to give the game more depth, not to say that that is a bad thing but it is to say that those aspects are things we as gamers have placed into the game. These techs and glitches that we use were not part of the original formula that has made smash such a compelling game to play.

3. A lot of people state that the removal of wasvedashing is the cause of the debate of whether smash has been nerfed in the technical department or not. Wavedashing is a glitch that was found in Melee point blank. Beyond popular belief that wavedashing is not a glitch there is plenty of evidence that proves otherwise. Wavedashing is a tech, but it is not a “true tech” a true tech is a tech that the game makers and developers deliberately implement into a game i.e. the air dodge, the side step, and the roll in melee. Wavedashing is a “false tech” a tech that grew out of a broken game mechanic. Proof of this position lies in the character animations. With true techs such as the air dodge each character has a unique animation that accompanies their frames of invulnerability, Mewtwo disappears, Peach spins, Marth opens up to the side. With wavedashing each character has the same animation which only differs slightly due to the character’s initial unique falling, landing, and air dodge postures. The length of the slide differs due to each character’s inherent levels of friction. Each of these elements are separate from the actual wavedashing animation. The fact that wavedashing has aperantly been removed is also proof that it was not meant to be a “true tech” but rather that it was a “false tech.” Also as a side note in the Melee official strategy guide the true techs were mentioned and no false techs appeared. With that being said it makes sense for us as the smash community to be upset because of the removal of some of the tech that we did find such as wavedashing. Wavedashing became a very important and intriguing part of the smash tournament scene and it is somewhat of a slap in the face that Sakurai did not implement this tech into Brawl. The fact remains that Sakurai is an amazing artist, and most amazing artist make their works of art for themselves and no one else it is evident that Sakurai is leaving some options of the development of the game to us (the character polls) but at the same time he is making it so the game is played the way he wants it to be played. Sakurai is going to take out what he feels is an imperfection to his masterpiece, or a part of the game that puts a big gap between player, it is also the reason why some moves have been nerfed or changed.…. Let the flaming begin

4. My final point is simple. Is bringing smash back to its simple roots all bad? Think about it, before any of us knew about the commonly used techs in Melee wasn’t it more exciting to find someone who played smash and play them without worrying about pawning them because they are considered a nOob because they knew nothing about techs which are apart of a very small part of the smash community. When we didn’t know about techs and we challenged one another the game was based on mind-games, fakes, and smart decisions, and no one could give the famous Street Fighter excuse of “ If my finger didn’t slip when I was trying to do down side down side up back down side, I would have won.” Smash is a game that is based more on mind games in the first place and the mind games themselves brought enough variability to the game that made each fight unique and broad scale. What techs did was it narrowed out the great from the good yes, but it also narrowed down who you saw at tournaments. Before you would see most people who played smash in a community come to a tournament, but now people are intimidated to go because they don’t know how to wave dash, or because “shffling is too hard.” If the game became oriented around mind games again rather than technical ability the game would still have players that would surpass the rest but it would also expand the tournament scene. And if that’s the direction Sakurai is trying to go then I agree with losing some technical aspects of the game.

tl;dr

Try using paragraphs next time to separate ideas so we don't get murdered by a giant wall of text.

 

[legendofme]

tl;dr

Try using paragraphs next time to separate ideas so we don't get murdered by a giant wall of text.

jerk.

 

[Xpressions X]

tl;dr

Try using paragraphs next time to separate ideas so we don't get murdered by a giant wall of text.

Ha Ha, ummmmmmmmmmmmm I thought this was Smash World Forums not english class.

 

[Sliq]

Ha Ha, ummmmmmmmmmmmm I thought this was Smash World Forums not english class.

I'm only posted that for your benefit, because I didn't and won't read your post because it is a chore for me to have to wade through ONE HUGE PARAGRAPH AFTER ANOTHER.

It is much easier to read things if you space it out more. I don't care what you do, but if you don't want people to read what you post, then continue being a jackass.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Techs and advanced tactics didn't make Smash Bros a long lasting game that was super popular.

It was because it's FUN. A fun game, regardless of levels of "advanced gameplay" "techniques", is timeless.

 

[1048576]

I read it. It's nicely spaced. Sliq is lazy. Good points. I don't agree with the third point, though, because developers knew about land fall special, so they must have known about wavedashing. They probably didn't know it was a competetive tactic, though.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

I thought it was paragraphed enough. I could read it.

And I happen to have never incorporated wavedashing or other false techs into my strategy, so I'll be on even footing when Brawl comes out

 

[Jazriel]

people who say its less technical should get a swift kick in the balls. We lose wavedashing and gain a plethora of new techs.

You, are so manly, that's going into my sig. That's just how manly you are.

[Edit] Sliq, you're the one being a *******. Learn to read kkthx. It's sad enough that you consider it "a giant wall of text".

 

[Xpressions X]

I'm only posted that for your benefit, because I didn't and won't read your post because it is a chore for me to have to wade through ONE HUGE PARAGRAPH AFTER ANOTHER.

It is much easier to read things if you space it out more. I don't care what you do, but if you don't want people to read what you post, then continue being a jackass.

Sliq was it? Calling people you don't know a jacka$$ kinda makes you a jacka$$ just something I thought might help you in the future. Plus, please discuss the topic, if you really were just trying to give a newcomer to the forums advise you would have discussed your points a little bit more.... lets say appropriately. Instead, your rude response suggests that you have been infected by the "internet gangster" bug that seems to be going around lately I urge you to seek medical attention immediately!

 

[Xpressions X]

I'm only posted that for your benefit, because I didn't and won't read your post because it is a chore for me to have to wade through ONE HUGE PARAGRAPH AFTER ANOTHER.

It is much easier to read things if you space it out more. I don't care what you do, but if you don't want people to read what you post, then continue being a jackass.

Sliq was it? Calling people you don't know a jacka$$ kinda makes you a jacka$$ just something I thought might help you in the future. Plus, please discuss the topic. If you really were just trying to give a newcomer to the forums advice you would have discussed your points a little bit more.... lets say appropriately. Instead, your rude response suggests that you have been infected by the "internet gangster" bug that seems to be going around lately I urge you to seek medical attention immediately!

 

[DragonBlade]

I know there are a few posts that surround the subject of Smash Brothers Brawl and its apparent downgrade in the department of technical emphasis and it subsequently being geared towards a more casual audience. Many people see this as a bad thing but I don’t see why. Let me get to my point before I get flamed about there being a billion posts about why Brawl losing technical ability is a bad thing. I feel that IF (there are most likely going to be new applications seeing as people were looking for them even at the demo of the game) the game did lose technical applications it would not affect the smash community in a negative way, in fact I believe it will do the opposite. Here are my key points as to why the game losing technical applications is not as evil as some make it out to be

1. Some have argued that the technical parts of the game i.e. wavedashing, shffling, waveshining, etc. were the reasons as to why melee has withstood the test of time. I agree with this point to a degree in the fact that the discoveries of the new techs brought a new flavor to melee, but I do not believe that the technical aspect of the game is what allowed melee to be such a playable game for such a long time. Many of us played melee for years before techs were even found let alone before they became an important part of play. The only way I could understand a person saying that technical ability is the reason why a game like melee and soon to be Brawl lasts is if they recently joined the Smash Community. Now the technical aspect did bring a new flavor to the game that did help with sparking interest in the game but that mainly had to do with the fact that the new techs were just that NEW. If those techs were placed in the hand manual and everyone new about them when melee was released they would not have sparked as much interest as they did.

2. Another key point to take note of on this subject is the fact that the smash formula has barely changed. Yes you do get K.Oed at higher percentages and the characters are more floaty (at least form what was reported from the E for all demo) but the simple mechanics that made us fall in love with the game are still there, it is still a unique fighter in its genre which bases emphasis on platforming and fighting. Smash 64 is what started this whole craze and in that version there was a limited set of B moves, the emphasis on technical ability was much less important as compared to its Melee counterpart, and there was a 12 character roster. Now of course in this day and age a game must have much more depth then that to survive let alone become a blockbuster hit. But those simple mechanics are what drew a lot of us “hardcore” smashers to the series. Wavedashing, moonwalking, pillaring, etc. were just added bonuses that we decided to exploit to give the game more depth, not to say that that is a bad thing but it is to say that those aspects are things we as gamers have placed into the game. These techs and glitches that we use were not part of the original formula that has made smash such a compelling game to play.

3. A lot of people state that the removal of wasvedashing is the cause of the debate of whether smash has been nerfed in the technical department or not. Wavedashing is a glitch that was found in Melee point blank. Beyond popular belief that wavedashing is not a glitch there is plenty of evidence that proves otherwise. Wavedashing is a tech, but it is not a “true tech” a true tech is a tech that the game makers and developers deliberately implement into a game i.e. the air dodge, the side step, and the roll in melee. Wavedashing is a “false tech” a tech that grew out of a broken game mechanic. Proof of this position lies in the character animations. With true techs such as the air dodge each character has a unique animation that accompanies their frames of invulnerability, Mewtwo disappears, Peach spins, Marth opens up to the side. With wavedashing each character has the same animation which only differs slightly due to the character’s initial unique falling, landing, and air dodge postures. The length of the slide differs due to each character’s inherent levels of friction. Each of these elements are separate from the actual wavedashing animation. The fact that wavedashing has aperantly been removed is also proof that it was not meant to be a “true tech” but rather that it was a “false tech.” Also as a side note in the Melee official strategy guide the true techs were mentioned and no false techs appeared. With that being said it makes sense for us as the smash community to be upset because of the removal of some of the tech that we did find such as wavedashing. Wavedashing became a very important and intriguing part of the smash tournament scene and it is somewhat of a slap in the face that Sakurai did not implement this tech into Brawl. The fact remains that Sakurai is an amazing artist, and most amazing artist make their works of art for themselves and no one else it is evident that Sakurai is leaving some options of the development of the game to us (the character polls) but at the same time he is making it so the game is played the way he wants it to be played. Sakurai is going to take out what he feels is an imperfection to his masterpiece, or a part of the game that puts a big gap between player, it is also the reason why some moves have been nerfed or changed.…. Let the flaming begin

4. My final point is simple. Is bringing smash back to its simple roots all bad? Think about it, before any of us knew about the commonly used techs in Melee wasn’t it more exciting to find someone who played smash and play them without worrying about pawning them because they are considered a nOob because they knew nothing about techs which are apart of a very small part of the smash community. When we didn’t know about techs and we challenged one another the game was based on mind-games, fakes, and smart decisions, and no one could give the famous Street Fighter excuse of “ If my finger didn’t slip when I was trying to do down side down side up back down side, I would have won.” Smash is a game that is based more on mind games in the first place and the mind games themselves brought enough variability to the game that made each fight unique and broad scale. What techs did was it narrowed out the great from the good yes, but it also narrowed down who you saw at tournaments. Before you would see most people who played smash in a community come to a tournament, but now people are intimidated to go because they don’t know how to wave dash, or because “shffling is too hard.” If the game became oriented around mind games again rather than technical ability the game would still have players that would surpass the rest but it would also expand the tournament scene. And if that’s the direction Sakurai is trying to go then I agree with losing some technical aspects of the game.

First of all, theres no reason why Brawl cannot be easy to pick up and play for casual players, and still have all the higher level things that would satisfy competitive players. I bet even if Brawl was not focused on casual players like it seems, they will still buy and play the because of the hype and popularity it has and play it casually. However, competitive players can not play the game competitively if its only focus on the casual side lacks depth. Thus, it would make sense to focus more on the aspects of the game that are more demanding (depth, complexity, competitiveness, whatever you want to call it), instead of simple gimmicky things like items, absurd stages, and silly final smashes.


1. Without the technical aspect the good competitive players would have mastered the game and started quiting. Not to sound rude, but just because you and some people you know haven't heard of ATs for years and were not bored, IT DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE NOT BETTER PLAYERS WHO WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME DEPTH IN THE GAME. The technical aspect really does make the combat system deeper and allow for more strategies and more mindgames, so people who would normally reach a limit will keep playing longer trying to master these more subtle parts instead. The fact that deep technical aspects are in the game DOES NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM IT. IT WILL ONLY ADD TO THE GAME. Why should it be taken out when it can only help the game?

2. Your logic is just plain ********. You claim that Brawl does not need these advanced techniques like Melee to be good, but you state that Brawl will naturally be good because the "basic formula has not changed" because its smash. WELL GUESS WHAT, ATs are a part of the basic formula of Melee. If I could not wavedash, L-cancel, pivit, etc., it would not be Melee. Taking ATs out changes the formula of the game, you cannot arbitrarily say some mechanics are part of the basic formula and some are not.

3. It does not matter what wavedashing is. You can make up **** about how it isn't a "true tech" or its a "false tech", but its meaningless. Your pedantic arguments won't change anything. Wavedashing is a mechanic considered an AT in Melee, and it helps people who know how to use it. Taking it out of the game, would reduce the overall complexity of the engine. Thats all there is to it.

4. No, smash was not more exciting when it was simpler. Competitive level play is far more enjoyable for a lot of people, including me. If you want to play casual, thats your choice. Realize that both of these preferences are opinions you can't really impose them on anyone else. Brawl should be expected to be deep, because it allows both kinds of play styles. Simplifying it only satisfies your narrow minded opinion of the game. Making the game simpler won't change difference between tournament players and casual nubs either. It just makes battles competitive players less interesting when there is less depth. If you can't go to a tournament now, you won't have that much more chance in the future.

Great job on putting every narrow minded, bad logic, casual biased, argument in one thread, btw.

 

[Flaminglink]

In the end the Hardcore players will be demolishing the casual gamers online. Smash is all about who can play better than the other player during the match.

The game ISNT being dumbed down at all taking out wavedashing and stuff is called removing bugs.

 

[DragonBlade]

In the end the Hardcore players will be demolishing the casual gamers online. Smash is all about who can play better than the other player during the match.

The game ISNT being dumbed down at all taking out wavedashing and stuff is called removing bugs.

Do you honestly think that every use of game mechanics should have been thought of by the developers. Pretty much every combo and every mindgame that we use was not known by the developers. By your logic, combos and mindgames are bugs too, and should be removed also. Does anyone take a moment to think about what they say anymore? Apparently not.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Do you honestly think that every use of game mechanics should have been thought of by the developers. Pretty much every combo and every mindgame that we was not known by the developers. By your logic they should remove all of them, also. Does anyone take a moment to think about what they say anymore? Apparently not.

And yet, people continue to whine about them not being in the new game, and then blame the developers. It's so weird.

 

[Brenco55]

So you obviously never used AT's, that seems to be the common link in all these "without at's i can compete without spending the time to improve my-self" threads. Although smash would be just as popular and sell as many copies without the "false ats" they are what made the game LAST for the obsessive player. Before i leared about at's i quickly reached the small skill ceiling and stopped playing the game alone. Although it was still my favorite game i would play other games with friends too. Then when i discovered ats thanks to a friend i logged more hours on the game then when id first bought it and when i got togeather with friends all we would play was smash. AT's gave it the depth it needed to last, without them the competitive community will die since practice wont help you.

But i dont mean to be totally negative about your idea, nintendo is dumming down smash on purpose
you just have the wrong reason. with the game easier it will appeal to a larger audience. Nintendo doesn't care how long you play a game just so long as you buy it. Any smasher who knows about at's would never boycott the sequel if they were removed so no sales loss there, but now when you have a friend over who is new at the game you'll be near the same skill level and your friend might even win a few matches and enjoy the game enough to buy it. if your friend played, lost every match and barly damaged you they will have a bad impression of the game and not want to buy it. it's just smart buisness!

 

[DragonBlade]

And yet, people continue to whine about them not being in the new game, and then blame the developers. It's so weird.

What do you expect when they are deliberately making changes to take them out?

 

[flyinfilipino]

What do you expect when they are deliberately making changes to take them out?

I'm just saying it's wrong for people to be mad at the developers for taking out the 'advanced techniques' themselves when it's just a by-product of a small change to the physics.

 

[starcock]

I know there are a few posts that surround the subject of Smash Brothers Brawl and its apparent downgrade in the department of technical emphasis and it subsequently being geared towards a more casual audience. Many people see this as a bad thing but I don’t see why. Let me get to my point before I get flamed about there being a billion posts about why Brawl losing technical ability is a bad thing. I feel that IF (there are most likely going to be new applications seeing as people were looking for them even at the demo of the game) the game did lose technical applications it would not affect the smash community in a negative way, in fact I believe it will do the opposite. Here are my key points as to why the game losing technical applications is not as evil as some make it out to be

1. Some have argued that the technical parts of the game i.e. wavedashing, shffling, waveshining, etc. were the reasons as to why melee has withstood the test of time. I agree with this point to a degree in the fact that the discoveries of the new techs brought a new flavor to melee, but I do not believe that the technical aspect of the game is what allowed melee to be such a playable game for such a long time. Many of us played melee for years before techs were even found let alone before they became an important part of play. The only way I could understand a person saying that technical ability is the reason why a game like melee and soon to be Brawl lasts is if they recently joined the Smash Community. Now the technical aspect did bring a new flavor to the game that did help with sparking interest in the game but that mainly had to do with the fact that the new techs were just that NEW. If those techs were placed in the hand manual and everyone new about them when melee was released they would not have sparked as much interest as they did.

2. Another key point to take note of on this subject is the fact that the smash formula has barely changed. Yes you do get K.Oed at higher percentages and the characters are more floaty (at least form what was reported from the E for all demo) but the simple mechanics that made us fall in love with the game are still there, it is still a unique fighter in its genre which bases emphasis on platforming and fighting. Smash 64 is what started this whole craze and in that version there was a limited set of B moves, the emphasis on technical ability was much less important as compared to its Melee counterpart, and there was a 12 character roster. Now of course in this day and age a game must have much more depth then that to survive let alone become a blockbuster hit. But those simple mechanics are what drew a lot of us “hardcore” smashers to the series. Wavedashing, moonwalking, pillaring, etc. were just added bonuses that we decided to exploit to give the game more depth, not to say that that is a bad thing but it is to say that those aspects are things we as gamers have placed into the game. These techs and glitches that we use were not part of the original formula that has made smash such a compelling game to play.

3. A lot of people state that the removal of wasvedashing is the cause of the debate of whether smash has been nerfed in the technical department or not. Wavedashing is a glitch that was found in Melee point blank. Beyond popular belief that wavedashing is not a glitch there is plenty of evidence that proves otherwise. Wavedashing is a tech, but it is not a “true tech” a true tech is a tech that the game makers and developers deliberately implement into a game i.e. the air dodge, the side step, and the roll in melee. Wavedashing is a “false tech” a tech that grew out of a broken game mechanic. Proof of this position lies in the character animations. With true techs such as the air dodge each character has a unique animation that accompanies their frames of invulnerability, Mewtwo disappears, Peach spins, Marth opens up to the side. With wavedashing each character has the same animation which only differs slightly due to the character’s initial unique falling, landing, and air dodge postures. The length of the slide differs due to each character’s inherent levels of friction. Each of these elements are separate from the actual wavedashing animation. The fact that wavedashing has aperantly been removed is also proof that it was not meant to be a “true tech” but rather that it was a “false tech.” Also as a side note in the Melee official strategy guide the true techs were mentioned and no false techs appeared. With that being said it makes sense for us as the smash community to be upset because of the removal of some of the tech that we did find such as wavedashing. Wavedashing became a very important and intriguing part of the smash tournament scene and it is somewhat of a slap in the face that Sakurai did not implement this tech into Brawl. The fact remains that Sakurai is an amazing artist, and most amazing artist make their works of art for themselves and no one else it is evident that Sakurai is leaving some options of the development of the game to us (the character polls) but at the same time he is making it so the game is played the way he wants it to be played. Sakurai is going to take out what he feels is an imperfection to his masterpiece, or a part of the game that puts a big gap between player, it is also the reason why some moves have been nerfed or changed.…. Let the flaming begin

4. My final point is simple. Is bringing smash back to its simple roots all bad? Think about it, before any of us knew about the commonly used techs in Melee wasn’t it more exciting to find someone who played smash and play them without worrying about pawning them because they are considered a nOob because they knew nothing about techs which are apart of a very small part of the smash community. When we didn’t know about techs and we challenged one another the game was based on mind-games, fakes, and smart decisions, and no one could give the famous Street Fighter excuse of “ If my finger didn’t slip when I was trying to do down side down side up back down side, I would have won.” Smash is a game that is based more on mind games in the first place and the mind games themselves brought enough variability to the game that made each fight unique and broad scale. What techs did was it narrowed out the great from the good yes, but it also narrowed down who you saw at tournaments. Before you would see most people who played smash in a community come to a tournament, but now people are intimidated to go because they don’t know how to wave dash, or because “shffling is too hard.” If the game became oriented around mind games again rather than technical ability the game would still have players that would surpass the rest but it would also expand the tournament scene. And if that’s the direction Sakurai is trying to go then I agree with losing some technical aspects of the game.

Very good, I see your posts come in 5 different flavors of bull****. I don't know if I should get a dictionary or some skittles. I understand where you are comming from though, I am tired myself of 4 c*cking everyone I come accross and would be cool if they make the game casual so people like KDJ could stand a chance againts me.

Hey guys, I just came back from surgery, I was crossing the street to VLS and some idiot screamed out "I can't let you do that Starcock" and continued to turn into my flesh, he didn't even have his blinker on the b*stard. As a result, I couldn't make it and ended up in a coma for several weeks. The Doc said the co.ck will make a full recovery, so don't worry.

 

[Xpressions X]

First of all, theres no reason why Brawl cannot be easy to pick up and play for casual players, and still have all the higher level things that would satisfy competitive players. I bet even if Brawl was not focused on casual players like it seems, they will still buy and play the because of the hype and popularity it has and play it casually. However, competitive players can not play the game competitively if its only focus on the casual side lacks depth. Thus, it would make sense to focus more on the aspects of the game that are more demanding (depth, complexity, competitiveness, whatever you want to call it), instead of simple gimmicky things like items, absurd stages, and silly final smashes.


1. Without the technical aspect the good competitive players would have mastered the game and started quiting. Not to sound rude, but just because you and some people you know haven't heard of ATs for years and were not bored, IT DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE NOT BETTER PLAYERS WHO WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME DEPTH IN THE GAME. The technical aspect really does make the combat system deeper and allow for more strategies and more mindgames, so people who would normally reach a limit will keep playing longer trying to master these more subtle parts instead. The fact that deep technical aspects are in the game DOES NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM IT. IT WILL ONLY ADD TO THE GAME. Why should it be taken out when it can only help the game?

2. Your logic is just plain ********. You claim that Brawl does not need these advanced techniques like Melee to be good, but you state that Brawl will naturally be good because the "basic formula has not changed" because its smash. WELL GUESS WHAT, ATs are a part of the basic formula of Melee. If I could not wavedash, L-cancel, pivit, etc., it would not be Melee. Taking ATs out changes the formula of the game, you cannot arbitrarily say some mechanics are part of the basic formula and some are not.

3. It does not matter what wavedashing is. You can make up **** about how it isn't a "true tech" or its a "false tech", but its meaningless. Your pedantic arguments won't change anything. Wavedashing is a mechanic considered an AT in Melee, and it helps people who know how to use it. Taking it out of the game, would reduce the overall complexity of the engine. Thats all there is to it.

4. No, smash was not more exciting when it was simpler. Competitive level play is far more enjoyable for a lot of people, including me. If you want to play casual, thats your choice. Realize that both of these preferences are opinions you can't really impose them on anyone else. Brawl should be expected to be deep, because it allows both kinds of play styles. Simplifying it only satisfies your narrow minded opinion of the game. Making the game simpler won't change difference between tournament players and casual nubs either. It just makes battles competitive players less interesting when there is less depth. If you can't go to a tournament now, you won't have that much more chance in the future.

Great job on putting every narrow minded, bad logic, casual biased, argument in one thread, btw.

First off you missed the entire point of the DISCUSSION. This was not biased towards any position so there was no need for you to get offended. I stated that the techs brought a flavor to the game. Second off your arument is very bias. The false techs that were in the game were used that's been established no one is stating whether they were useful or not and you can't honestly sit her and tell me that techs "made" Melee. Melee was fun before the techs, yes the techs added to the game and became an establishing mark on Melee. Now correct me if I'm wrong but the formula that made smash what it was on the N64 was one of the reasons you picked Melee up, right? Well if it was then you agree with me. ATs were part of the basic formula but wavedashing was not. If you can't see that ten hey, who is narrow minded?

 

[flyinfilipino]

This is about to just turn into another flame fest over advanced techs which has nothing to do with Brawl.

 

[DragonBlade]

I'm just saying it's wrong for people to be mad at the developers for taking out the 'advanced techniques' themselves when it's just a by-product of a small change to the physics.

But the problem is they didn't decide change the physics and some things got effected, they wanted to simplify the game so they started making changes that removed what seemed like complexities. See http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129998 , if you don't believe its being simplified.

 

[flyinfilipino]

But the problem is they didn't decide change the physics and some things got effected, they wanted to simplify the game so they started making changes that removed what seemed like complexities. See http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129998 , if you don't believe its being simplified.

But there's also the fact that they wanted aerial comabt to be improved. That's the main reason for the changes,

 

[gigasteve]

This is the best game ever you're talking about. Although I like the advanced techniques, this will force me to find new strategies and may give me more competition from my little brothers.

 

[Xpressions X]

So you obviously never used AT's, that seems to be the common link in all these "without at's i can compete without spending the time to improve my-self" threads. Although smash would be just as popular and sell as many copies without the "false ats" they are what made the game LAST for the obsessive player. Before i leared about at's i quickly reached the small skill ceiling and stopped playing the game alone. Although it was still my favorite game i would play other games with friends too. Then when i discovered ats thanks to a friend i logged more hours on the game then when id first bought it and when i got togeather with friends all we would play was smash. AT's gave it the depth it needed to last, without them the competitive community will die since practice wont help you.

But i dont mean to be totally negative about your idea, nintendo is dumming down smash on purpose
you just have the wrong reason. with the game easier it will appeal to a larger audience. Nintendo doesn't care how long you play a game just so long as you buy it. Any smasher who knows about at's would never boycott the sequel if they were removed so no sales loss there, but now when you have a friend over who is new at the game you'll be near the same skill level and your friend might even win a few matches and enjoy the game enough to buy it. if your friend played, lost every match and barly damaged you they will have a bad impression of the game and not want to buy it. it's just smart buisness!

ummmmmmmmmmm, actually I use AT's all of the time. Just because this is my first time posting on these boards doesn't means I don't use AT's. And making the game appeal to the gerneral audience was part of my discussion. I like techs just as much as the next person but if taking some techs out will help expand the amount of "advanced" players in the Smash Community then I don't mind it.