A Great Schism Once Smash 4 Comes Out?

[WritersBlah]

Fixed*

Sorry, mate. Can't see it on my browser.

 

[RODO]

There's no hard evidence about ssb4 at the moment since things can change last minute. Solely based on observations though, it's safe to say that the reasons why it's watered down compared to melee are because: no djc, magnetic ledge grabs, reverse ledge grabs, physics, mobility techniques, and armour everywhere.

No djc is probably true, but magnetic ledge grabs are definitely no where near Brawl level and are much closer to Melee level if not the same. Reverse ledge grabs I don't really see how that's a problem to competitive play but yeah it's there. Physics and mobility techniques we know very little about, and you might even be surprised and like them more than Melee's. Now "armour everywhere" I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sorry, mate. Can't see it on my browser.

Really? That's odd, I thought tinypic worked for everyone...... I added 'Final Destination' below No trans fat - No cholestrol

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

I agree, but do understand that I don't think it's for babies, just that things are a bit more lenient since some characters have moves and hit boxes tailored for combos, higher percentages for crouch canceling and visual indicators for execution etc. The changes aren't necessarily bad, but it just feels off to me because of the visuals themselves (Brawl characters, Brawl camera angle etc.) that turn me off a bit. It is cool to play with space animals again, though no doubt. And yeah as you mentioned, it isn't finished, but even then it still wouldn't be greater than Melee to me. I love everything about Melee, the game is just incredible to me.

@Glyphoscythe Double Dash is the ****, man. Favorite Mario Kart to this day next to 64.

I'll agree wit you to an extent. But as much as I like melee's "in your face" camera. It can be very off putting. When your hit hard in a direction even to the other side of a stage. The camera is so close up that your already in the danger bubble until the camera re-adjusts itself lol.

View attachment 12259​

C'mon man. Peanut Butter is delicious. Melee is delicious. Makes perfect sense to me. Melee is the Peanut Butter, Project M is the jelly, and the community is the toast giving Smash a warm home. I just made a metaphor out of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. What now?

 

[The Slayer]

No sense in worrying about it until the games come out. We all need to stop focusing on the negative. A wound heals better if you stop picking at it, correct?

Even if most melee players go back to playing melee, there's nothing wrong with "living in the stone age". I'm still living there too, playing double dash.

You had a good point until Double Dash. That's the Mario Kart game that redesign the Blue Spiny Shell into a hellspawn of annihilating racers in pole position! I curse thee!

Spoiler

...still like the game though...

Anyways, I don't believe the schism will be that bad as Melee and Brawl. Pros and fans that prefer Melee's playstyle gave in way too much into the hype that Brawl might be the next step in competitive play by advancing it. After finding out the game is very defensive in nature, the divide just became a cesspool of anger and hatred within this community because of these two games. Now that Smash Bros 4 was announced and info is slowly coming in, most are keeping a skeptical view for it so disappointment will be minimal (and people who expect it to be very similar to Melee will be disappointment; don't be surprise if it happens) and they either stick with Melee or go forth to SSB4.

But the hatred will probably be a lot less depending on how SSB4 plays out. Will there still be arguments and banter? You bet your moneymaker, but as bad as Brawl? Probably, but I don't think so since people are prepared this time. And I get the feeling Brawl vs SSB4 comments will be trivial and rare.

 

[Rikana]

No djc is probably true, but magnetic ledge grabs are definitely no where near Brawl level and are much closer to Melee level if not the same. Reverse ledge grabs I don't really see how that's a problem to competitive play but yeah it's there. Physics and mobility techniques we know very little about, and you might even be surprised and like them more than Melee's. Now "armour everywhere" I have no idea what you are talking about.

Why would I like physics that is more floaty than Melee's? And the magnetic ledge grab is still extremely noticeable. It's no where close to Melee's range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBx8p6fXxOI @ 1:05. Having the ability to reverse ledge grab is, not matter how you look at it, still watered down compared to what Melee provided; but, that doesn't mean I don't mind it. I like that everyone has a universal reverse ledge grab. I never mentioned anything about these factors being an issue to competitive play. I only provided examples of what will be watered down in smash 4 in contrast to Melee. If the physics and mobility drastically change and becomes fast paced to slightly favor aggro-play like Melee again, I would be all for it.

In regards to armour, I'm talking about the super armour that many characters possess as a way to absorb attacks but doesn't get interrupted. I don't mind the trait alone, I just don't like how it's being handed out like its nothing. The only way I see it fit is when the attack has a long startup and suggests a high knockback projection through the animation (like Bowser's fSmash in Melee). And even then, I wouldn't make it the armour frames last that long.

You're also forgetting the options out of shield (shield drop iasa) which promotes more defensive mentalities; which, in a sense, is watering down the game as well.

Sakurai would need to change a lot of things in Smash4 (from what I observed so far) to slightly capture my interest right now. Smash4 isn't convincing the Melee community at the moment. I still see it catering the Brawl community much more.

 

[Empyrean]

Here's the thing: the average Melee competitive player will probably not transition to Smash 4 for the same reason he won't play Project M, and that's because he is trying to focus on becoming better at one game. The way I see it, maining multiple games is like maining multiple characters: odds are you won't get far if you have too many to concentrate on at the same time, unless you reach a certain point of mastery with one character/game. From wandering around this site and listening to people talk on stream, it just feels like this is the case with a big part of players, even though most will say that they don't like the direction the game is taking (or in PM's case, the "gimmicks" and "unnatural feel" of the non Melee-top-tier characters). Obviously there are some who just want to start all over again with a new game, to help develop a brand new metagame based around brand new physics/mechanics/playstyles.

I guess what I'm trying to say is (honestly I'm not too sure myself) that not everyone shares the same feeling about a new game (whether it be Smash 4 or PM, since they are the 2 attracting the most new players) and is willing to transition. To the ones who do, then good for them and the new community. For the ones who simply choose not to, then let them be. I find it annoying when people tell them to "get out of their cave" or, more commonly, to "move on", as moving on would imply that the changes made are positive and outclass previous titles, which is purely subjective. The problem with most people here is that they tend to consider the Melee crowd as some sort of competition who seeks to bring the new Smash(es) down, when it's just a few people who start flame wars and should be ignored for the sake of maintaining a certain level of order. Fact is, most people who are discontent won't bother making huge hate-posts/rants anymore like the ones rampant shortly after Brawl's release.

 

[JediLink]

Smash4 isn't convincing the Melee community me at the moment. I still see it catering the Brawl community much more.

Speak for yourself. I think Smash 4 looks great and I'm keen as hell to be a part of the new scene when it comes out.

 

[Rikana]

Speak for yourself. I think Smash 4 looks great and I'm keen as hell to be a part of the new scene when it comes out.

Let me know when Smash4 convinces majority of the Melee scene to switch over then.

 

[Senario]

Let me know when Smash4 convinces majority of the Melee scene to switch over then.

If only, I am part of the Melee scene and to me I see smash 4 as a chance to be a newer version of the game but not really the "Best version". This probably won't be true for most people from melee but in all honesty I wish updating smash was as simple as it is for other fighting games like Marvel or street fighter. Unfortunately, if it isn't competitive in the first place it won't happen.

UMvC3 is what is played at evo because it is competitive, but MvC2 is the better game. I see it somewhat similar for Smash Bros, though admittedly this game series has changed so much between versions.

 

[JV5Chris]

I imagine the split between Melee and Smash 4 will feel more like a generation gap than a schism. Much of the Melee activity these days is on Facebook anyways, which means many care far less about what's said here. Of course, if people continue building this up as a major scene defining issue, it will probably become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[slicesabre]

To an extent the people for moving on once a new game will be released will be proven right, in their minds at least. I mean think about it, all the people who prefer Melee will stick to Melee when the new fans or ones that have moved on ask them why enough Melee fans will downgrade and smack talk Smash 4 and Brawl(Melee fans just cannot help themselves) which will in turn prove to those other fans that Melee's fans are stuck in the past and all they really want is Melee 2.0.

But by the time that comes around and hits a point it'll be like arguing with your grandpa that cellphones are a better way of getting in touch with someone than a telegraph.

Sure grandpa can claim using a telegraph is better and become the best telegraph user in the world, but its been so long who the hell cares except other telegraph users?

 

[RODO]

Why would I like physics that is more floaty than Melee's? And the magnetic ledge grab is still extremely noticeable. It's no where close to Melee's range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBx8p6fXxOI @ 1:05. Having the ability to reverse ledge grab is, not matter how you look at it, still watered down compared to what Melee provided; but, that doesn't mean I don't mind it. I like that everyone has a universal reverse ledge grab. I never mentioned anything about these factors being an issue to competitive play. I only provided examples of what will be watered down in smash 4 in contrast to Melee. If the physics and mobility drastically change and becomes fast paced to slightly favor aggro-play like Melee again, I would be all for it.

In regards to armour, I'm talking about the super armour that many characters possess as a way to absorb attacks but doesn't get interrupted. I don't mind the trait alone, I just don't like how it's being handed out like its nothing. The only way I see it fit is when the attack has a long startup and suggests a high knockback projection through the animation (like Bowser's fSmash in Melee). And even then, I wouldn't make it the armour frames last that long.

You're also forgetting the options out of shield (shield drop iasa) which promotes more defensive mentalities; which, in a sense, is watering down the game as well.

Sakurai would need to change a lot of things in Smash4 (from what I observed so far) to slightly capture my interest right now. Smash4 isn't convincing the Melee community at the moment. I still see it catering the Brawl community much more.

That's fair and all, but it might be deep in a different sense than Melee. I think too many people look at Melee and say "this is what a deep and competitive Smash Bros is like" but they can't seem to think that maybe that's not the ONLY way you can have a deep and competitive Smash title. Smash 4 looks cool, and even if Melee is "more competitive" or "more deep" you should still give it a shot. Why not play both??

 

[Ulevo]

There isn't going to be a divide between the 3DS and Wii U because they won't be vying for attention from each other. If you like the 3DS version, odds are you're going to like the Wii U version just as much, if not more so. If you like the Wii U version, you might like the 3DS version, at at worst you won't hate it either because it's just the same thing with a set controller, different stages, watered down graphics, and a couple of other things that vary. It's not like they are fundamentally different games. And while Brawl and Melee had a big divide, that was all because Brawl competitively failed to live up to Melee's standards. It's obvious just from looking at the titles in the direct that the Wii U version will be the preference for competitive tournaments.

This is pretty much a non issue.

 

[The Slayer]

To an extent the people for moving on once a new game will be released will be proven right, in their minds at least. I mean think about it, all the people who prefer Melee will stick to Melee when the new fans or ones that have moved on ask them why enough Melee fans will downgrade and smack talk Smash 4 and Brawl(Melee fans just cannot help themselves) which will in turn prove to those other fans that Melee's fans are stuck in the past and all they really want is Melee 2.0.

But by the time that comes around and hits a point it'll be like arguing with your grandpa that cellphones are a better way of getting in touch with someone than a telegraph.

Sure grandpa can claim using a telegraph is better and become the best telegraph user in the world, but its been so long who the hell cares except other telegraph users?

They wouldn't care to question them because they know that's what game they prefer. Apparently, you didn't read @ Empyrean 's post about that concept. The people you see now that are flaming games are more than likely just the few bad eggs in the community to get others' emotions riled up. Aside from that, the players in Melee are practicing when they can to get better and improve. Generalizing Melee fans as nostalgic Debbie Downers to new concepts is not a good point at all. If it's new and working meta that they like, they'll jump on board. Otherwise, they'll go happily back to Melee. The attractiveness to metagame of other Smash games are subjective in nature.

Also, comparing the ages of communication is a lot more restrictive than comparing the ages of competition and that example is way too vast to be even reliable to what's being mentioned.

 

[Norm]

I know there wont be any animosity from me personally. I'll own both I'll play both. I doubt there's going to be to many differences between the two from a gameplay perspective; that would cause any kind of aggression between the two. Sure there are different stages and play modes but overall I can't see them altering the gameplay all that much.

But that being said I like all of the Smash Bro's 64, melee, and brawl. It didn't matter to me that brawl was different than melee I wasn't expecting the same game and I just grew accustomed to brawls control and flow.

 

[Downdraft]

I'm just gonna play Smash 4 and Melee. I could play PM but it's just Melee with training wheels and funky inputs. I don't think it's gonna cause a huge impact like with Brawl because of the similarities of the games and the time gap from Melee's release to Brawl's was much larger.

I don't understand the funky inputs part because I'm inexperienced in Melee.
The time gap isn't that different. Melee released in NA in December 2001; Brawl was released 6 years and 3 months later.
Brawl was released in March 2008, so Smash 4 for Wii U will actually have taken longer to arrive than Brawl did after Melee.

I agree that there shouldn't be a huge controversy when Smash 4 for Wii U is released.
I'm in the camp that believes that Smash 4 is on track to be a major upgrade over Brawl, thankfully.
The 3DS and Wii U versions will have different stage selections. The 3DS version has Smash run and character customization. The Wii U version will have a greater variety of stage music. I would expect the Wii U to have an exclusive mode or gameplay feature that might help maintain hype between the Summer and Winter releases. Competitively however, there should be no case for a divide between the two versions.

 

[Tornado_Man]

If people could somehow play Brawl competitively, I'm sure that won't be a problem for Smash 4. Though comparing it to Melee like people did with Brawl is pretty unneccesary.

 

[Downdraft]

If people could somehow play Brawl competitively, I'm sure that won't be a problem for Smash 4. Though comparing it to Melee like people did with Brawl is pretty unneccesary.

I agree completely; we already know that this game won't resemble Melee.
From what I've read here, people are still seeking more information regarding how momentum and hitstun work.
Smash 4 might add its own advanced techniques. Brawl introduced the DACUS.
This isn't an original idea, but what if Smash 4 introduced a technique for pressing two or three buttons simultaneously?
Certain button combinations, instead of button and stick combinations could activate certain abilities.

 

[Rikana]

Smash 4 looks cool, and even if Melee is "more competitive" or "more deep" you should still give it a shot. Why not play both??

I plan on giving it a try but not by purchasing it; I'll just wait for someone to get it first. I think it's pretty safe to say that no one purchases games that they perceive as bad (with a few exception such as collecting). So to rephrase your question, its not a matter of playing both, its more like "why not play it if you enjoy it?" and that's subjective. It's more than likely that I'll get bored of it pretty fast soon after launch. I don't play fighting games for the 1 player aspect, I play to compete - whether it is casually or skill level - and socialize. Obviously, I hope that all my speculation becomes far from what the final product will provide and the game becomes another happy-accident (doesn't have to be a Melee replica; it just has to be full of depth, fast paced - gameplay-wise and involving a series of input, and favours aggro-play more than defensive-play).

 

[Aguki90]

To me WAR,WAR NEVER FREAKING CHANGE WITH BUNCH OF FANBOYS.

But we need to keep going but I hope Fans don't get to mean, I want everyone enjoy each smash bros to the top, no matter the version.

 

[A Lucky Person]

I agree completely; we already know that this game won't resemble Melee.
From what I've read here, people are still seeking more information regarding how momentum and hitstun work.
Smash 4 might add its own advanced techniques. Brawl introduced the DACUS.
This isn't an original idea, but what if Smash 4 introduced a technique for pressing two or three buttons simultaneously?
Certain button combinations, instead of button and stick combinations could activate certain abilities.

You bring up an interesting topic.

What if, say, hitstun and momentum work the same in Sm4sh as in Brawl, as in there is none?
Will the Melee players create another Project M and completely ignore Sm4sh as it originally is like they did Brawl?

It's impossible to please everyone, I know, but I would like to be optimistic about the Sm4sh competitive community that'll be created once this game is out.

 

[SmashBro99]

I'm happy smash 4 isnt looking like melee

 

[Downdraft]

You bring up an interesting topic.

What if, say, hitstun and momentum work the same in Sm4sh as in Brawl, as in there is none?
Will the Melee players create another Project M and completely ignore Sm4sh as it originally is like they did Brawl?

It's impossible to please everyone, I know, but I would like to be optimistic about the Sm4sh competitive community that'll be created once this game is out.

Once the methods of hacking the Wii U become readily available knowledge, then there will exist the possibility of a Smash 4 mod.
However, I don't see people investing the effort in another Brawl- or Project M if Smash 4 is well balanced.
So far, it hasn't appeared that Smash 4 is a major departure from Brawl, so the Wii mods should be enough for most.