A Conjecture of Characters to be in Brawl Based on Deduction

[adumbrodeus]

Thanks for falling in my snare. Now, if Sigurd was a poplar Japan figure, why did Ike outprioritize him? Simply put, japan's opinions are only taken with a grain of salt. It's equally as decisive as America's.

You seem to misunderstand, outprioritize, at least as far as the community has been using it, is a theoretical measure (if a slot has been devoted to the series, is this character more likely then this character to appear).



Sorry but no, Ike beating the odds changes nothing about the fact that practically speaking, Japan's opinions are more important then ours, this is just an outlier, those things happen every so often. One decision does not outweigh many many contrary decisions.

Plus, it's not like this means that Sigurd cannot get into brawl just because Ike has a costume that looks like his.




Also, it's not like the decision even opposed Japan-centricity, the fact that we prefer Ike over Sigurd in general doesn't mean they made the decision because of that, the first thing I pointed out is probably the best answer, advertisement for Radiant Dawn, just like they advertised for FE5 using Melee.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

No, hes saying that because they were only in Melee, they don't have the history of characters who were in the original. Which really isn't an argument against anyone's inclusion, especially when we consider that one of those originals, Ness, appears to have left. Like I said before, most of that post is pure opinion and BS.

Re: Sigurd - Bear in mind that the supposed costume Ike has of him is not confirmed to be such. He appears so to some fans (myself included), but it can be argued otherwise. It is also quite interesting that Ike was included in the "different colors" update yet there was no mention of it, but rather his green outfit was mentioned to bear a resemblance to a generic FE soldier's. Wouldn't you expect that, if Ike's white outfit was meant to be a Sigurd costume, it would be mentioned there?

Zevox

Yoshi's Boshi alt. hasn't been revealed there either. Neither have Sonic's alts(which probably reasemble, like, all of the over guys in his series).

 

[Zevox]

Yoshi's Boshi alt. hasn't been revealed there either. Neither have Sonic's alts(which probably reasemble, like, all of the over guys in his series).

True, but those two weren't on that update at all. Ike was. Why include him in the update, yet fail to mention a costume like that which would be of such importance to the Japanese fans?

Zevox

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

You seem to misunderstand, outprioritize, at least as far as the community has been using it, is a theoretical measure (if a slot has been devoted to the series, is this character more likely then this character to appear).



Sorry but no, Ike beating the odds changes nothing about the fact that practically speaking, Japan's opinions are more important then ours, this is just an outlier, those things happen every so often. One decision does not outweigh many many contrary decisions.

Plus, it's not like this means that Sigurd cannot get into brawl just because Ike has a costume that looks like his.




Also, it's not like the decision even opposed Japan-centricity, the fact that we prefer Ike over Sigurd in general doesn't mean they made the decision because of that, the first thing I pointed out is probably the best answer, advertisement for Radiant Dawn, just like they advertised for FE5 using Melee.

Ok, Daisy for Brawl since the alt. doesn't confirm her and she has as much importance to the series as Toad.

 

[vesperview]

I laugh hysterically at those people who think Daisy still has a chance of being in Brawl with her sports attire.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

True, but those two weren't on that update at all. Ike was. Why include him in the update, yet fail to mention a costume like that which would be of such importance to the Japanese fans?

Zevox

That's like asking why Zelda's B moves havn't been confirmed yet, or her absence in the demo.

Besides, maybe he didn't want to disappoint them. Peach's " Daisy" alt. wasn't revealed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, Daisy for Brawl since the alt. doesn't confirm her and she has as much importance to the series as Toad.

Way off topic, but true, assist trophies are the only confirmed deconfirmation, everything else just makes a character more unlikely, often considerably so but still.



The point is that the Japanese audience is more important to what actually gets into Brawl, like it or not.

Ike was an advertising decision, akin to Roy, even though there were better candidates.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

I laugh hysterically at those people who think Daisy still has a chance of being in Brawl with her sports attire.

Sarcasm isn't that easy to detect I guess.

 

[vesperview]

Sarcasm isn't that easy to detect I guess.

I wasn't talking about you.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

Way off topic, but true, assist trophies are the only confirmed deconfirmation, everything else just makes a character more unlikely, often considerably so but still.



The point is that the Japanese audience is more important to what actually gets into Brawl, like it or not.

Ike was an advertising decision, akin to Roy, even though there were better candidates.

Ike was more than an advertisement. He has 2 games, and both are the first in 3-D. He is obviously a revolution to FE, and is a staple for future Brawl games such as Marth. He is also the most critically acclaimed American FE character to date.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ike was more than an advertisement. He has 2 games, and both are the first in 3-D. He is obviously a revolution to FE, and is a staple for future Brawl games such as Marth. He is also the most critically acclaimed American FE character to date.

Tell that to Samus with her lack of Prime changes, the Japanese audience didn't like it so that was all glossed over for her Brawl version.


Ike may be, or he may not be, depends on what sort of legacy the games ultimately leave, if it's a good legacy, he'll probably stick around. If not, he'll be cut. The reviews won't tell us that, and as I pointed out, his legacy in Japan is gonna be critical. As of right now, Sigurd is more popular, but given time, that MAY change.


Remember, Roy had two games, first handhelds in the series, people just didn't like him enough, though all games were reviewed quite highly. How people remember Ike will be what counts.



However, it's very doubtful that their prime reason for choosing him was to advertise Radiant Dawn at this point, it'll take time for him to reach the point where he could be considered for a staple.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I agree with the Ridley part, but I think the whole Dark Samus argument is silly.

Silly? Sakurai even showed interest in Dark Samus according to Nintendo Power, which is a reliable source for things related to Nintendo.

What are you talking about? Icons count for nothing, Yoshi, DK, and Wario all derived from the Mario series. It doesn't matter what series of their own they have now, they're still products of Mario. It's really overkill if they add more than 1 Mario character (other than Luigi), if any.

Laughable. DK got his start in a Mario game? Sorry, but I am pretty sure that the name of that game was "Donkey Kong." Mario started in the DK series and is the embodiment of Jumpman.

With that argument, since characters like Yoshi, Wario, and anyone else who has managed to get their own game after starting out in a Mario game would technically be a member of the DK series, not Mario series. It's a ridiculous claim to make. Once a character is in their own franchise of games, they are their own star. It doesn't matter where they came from.

If anything it sounds like bias from you rather than the general population because you don't want to see characters from these franchises overtake Brawl, which is understandable, but making claims like "All of these characters are just members of the Mario series and it's over reped" is going too far. I doubt a single representative from Nintendo would ever agree with you on those points that you made.

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5.00. Donkey Kong
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5.01.a. Other Donkey Kong Characters
Conclusion: No
Reason: The Donkey Kong title, as far as Smash Bros. is concerned, could easily be conceived as, in fact, part of the Mario title, which would mean quite a few characters for one title. But, even without this factor, there are already two characters from Donkey Kong that, together, represent both a new and unique character as well as a classic one. Also, other Donkey Kong characters would probably be too similar to D.K. and Diddy Kong to prove original enough for inclusion.

Again, the above about different franchises apply. And you somehow overlooked K. Rool, who may not have the best shot at getting in, but he has been in more DK games than Donkey Kong himself, and is the Bowser of that series. If he is not "important" enough for you, then there is a problem, especially since you refuse to take popularity into account.

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5.03. Fire Emblem
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5.03.a. Marth and Roy
Conclusion: No
Reason: Despite the fact that Marth will be in an upcoming game for DS, the similarities between he and Ike appear to great. For the same reason, Roy will probably not be returning either. They were also both only unlockables in Melee, meaning there is no stable history that dictates their perpetuation.

I agree on Roy, he lacks in every area that would get him into another Smash Brothers game with the exception of popularity from Melee itself, which doesn't count for much in terms of Fire Emblem itself.

Marth similar to Ike? Do you know anything about Ike at all? They share a grand total of two moves I believe, and both have a chargeable B attack, but then again, so does Samus, DK, and various other characters, so that is not a valid argument. They looks similar? Look again, the only similarity is the blue hair and a sword, and even on that level they are completely different.

5.03.b. Other Fire Emblem Characters
Conclusion: Yes
Reason: Ike will be an immediately playable character and has no other characters yet from his title. This makes Fire Emblem a likely candidate on its own. But there is also the fact that there are two Fire Emblem games scheduled for release in the near future, as well as an immense roster of characters that would easily meet any prerequisite required to become a Smash Bros. character.

Not no, Inconclusive. Fire Emblem has not been as popular as it was when it was at it roots, and none of the games have been as proclaimed as the originals. Does this mean it cannot get a third representative? It all depends on what Sakurai wants, he likes the series, we might see a third rep.

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5.04. F-Zero
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5.04.a. Other F-Zero characters
Conclusion: No
Reason: While F-Zero does have characters that could be used in Brawl, but it would probably bring nothing new or unique to the game. There is also already an F-Zero assist trophy.

Because a single assist trophy completely makes up for lack of character representation, right? While F-Zero probably does deserve a second rep, I don't see it happening.

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5.08. Mario
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Hey now, you already went over Mario characters, since they are in the DK franchise by your logic. Oh well...

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5.10. Metroid
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5.10.a. Other Metroid Characters
Conclusion: No
Reason: The only confirmed way to play Zero Suit it by using Samus' final smash, However, Samus and Zero Suit Samus are listed as two different characters on Smash Bros Dojo, and they will be considers different characters for the purposes of predicting other Metroid characters. A trend showing in Brawl: titles that previously had only one character are getting a seconds or thirds (Donkey Kong, Kirby). Metroid, from a point of view, has already gotten it's second. It also has few characters that could be considered usable in the Smash Bros. games, and even those are almost to novel to put in.

Sakurai himself mentioned on his blog he saw that Metroid became increasingly popular after it was revived from it's 8 year depression of no games, and said he wanted to better represent the franchise. Adding half a character that cannot even be used for an entire match is hardly more representation. Again, your logic fails since you believe that an AT would completely cover for the lack of a playable representative.

I do believe that Metroid will get another playable rep. Not novel to put in? Have you PLAYED a Metroid game? Ridley is incredibly important and completely unique, even looking beyond his popularity, he is a viable character. And even on top of that Dark Samus is a great villain who, albeit shares a name with her enemy, could easily be completely unique. Sakurai also showed interest in her, as I mentioned above.

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5.11. Pokémon
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5.11.d. Other Pokémon Characters
Conclusion: Yes
Reason: Pokémon has always had a strong presence in the Smash Bros. games, and it is not difficult to find a fitting Pokémon to use. Considering the plethora potentials, it's status as foundation title in Melee, and the almost definite removal of Pichu, a new Pokémon character is to be expected.

For some reason everyone seems to overlook the Pokemon trainer. Mewtwo is likely staying due to his popularity, whether you wish to believe that or not. I really think they could get a different Pokemon rep each time, and drop Pikachu, Jigglypuff and the works, but that would never happen. Either way, I doubt Pokemon will overtake the roster and get more than five spots, including the overlooked trainer who could have very well replaced Pichu.

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5.12. Sonic
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5.12.a. Other Sonic Characters
Conclusion: Inconclusive
Reason: Sonic was an unexpected character to see in the game in the first place, and the circumstances behind his inclusion are peculiar. To have an unlockable character to accompany Sonic would make sense, but, as stated, the conditions under which Sonic was admitted may not allow any other characters from his title.

Inconclusive? What the hell? Sonic was not unexpected. If you were not expecting Sonic after the proven inclusion of third party characters, that would be like not expecting Mario to be in Smash Bros. To get a second rep from a third party series and take that away from much more deserving, much more popular, and much more interesting characters would make practically no sense. Remember that even though Sakurai's word may have changed, third party characters will still be kept at a minimum.

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5.13. StarFox
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5.13.a. Falco
Conclusion: Inconclusive
Reason: Falco wasn't in the first Smash Bros. and was a clone in the second as well as an unlockable. However, in recent StarFox games, Falco has been revamped and could be placed in Brawl as an entirely different character from Melee's Falco.

5.13.b. Other StarFox Characters
Conclusion: Yes
Reason: StarFox definitely has the potential characters, and there's room for them in Brawl. Also, Falco's return is not definite, and in the case of his removal, a replacement would be compulsory. But even in the case of Falco's return, chances of a new StarFox characters appear high.

Sounds biased. "Was not in the first game, and was a clone in the second." So he would be incapable of getting a new moveset? Sounds more like you just want Falco removed. I figure it will get a third rep, probably Krystal.

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5.14. Zelda
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5.14.a. Shiek
Conclusion: No
Reason: While Zelda is returning, her and Link both are their Twilight Princess versions. Unstable history. Odd in that you had to transform into her from Zelda.

The fact that Zelda still has OoT magic in her arsenal completely negates that statement.

5.14.c Young Link
Conclusion: No
Reason: Young Link was a clone. He was only an unlockable and only in Melee. Also, as we've seen with Zelda and Link, the Twilight Princess versions of the Zelda characters are being used in Brawl and there was no Young Link in Twilight Princess.

5.14.d. Other Zelda Characters
Conclusion: Yes
Reason: Young Links removal cuts the Zelda character list down from four (excluding Sheik) to three. This fact, combined with the number of potential Zelda characters, is incentive enough for a new edition from the Zelda title in Brawl.

You are using fan-made rules to argue this. First of all, I agree with any form of "Young Link" be it WW, Deku, or anything else. However, that does not mean he would require a replacement. Nowhere was it said that a series had to have the same amount or more representation. With or without Sheik, you have the entire history of the Zelda franchise built on those same three characters who are the only major reoccurring characters (Tingle is debatable, I suppose, but his importance could be as well).

This didn't sound like any type of unbiased deduction based on the Dojo, it sounded like your opinions for characters you want to see/don't want to see.

 

[bluebomber22]

Eli, how come you dont analyze the possibility of more third party characters other than addition Sonic, and Metal Gear characters?

 

[OysterMeister]

We know that some of the characters on the Dojo aren't starters. Sakurai has stated that all third party characters will be unlockable. This statement was further corroborated when Sakurai made special mention of bending the rules to allow Sonic to be playable.

Also, numerous reports from people who have played the Demo at E for All prove that Ike is in no way similar to Marth. They aren't at all similar, and thus Ike cannot be used as a reason against Marth's return.

Ridley is far more than you give him credit for. He's a prominent figure in the Metroid games, he's enormously popular, and Sakurai has dropped his name several times on the Dojo.

And the Pokemon series. With Pokemon trainer, we currently have four playable pokemon movesets in Brawl. If Jigglypuff and Mewtwo return, we'll have six. This is just opinion, but I highly doubt we'll have more than that in Brawl. I don't care how popular Pokemon is, six playable characters and a truckload of Pokeball cameo appearances should be enough to cover all the bases.

 

[Nodonn]

It's not a stupid comparison, those designs can be used as the creator pleases, it doesn't mean playable character automatically, if anything it is stupid to draw such conclusion, plus, Link is completely TP Link and Ganondorf will most likely be adaptated from TP as well, the only one who should retain her Melee moveset is Zelda because Din's, Farore's and Nayru's are the triforce Goddesses which is something that all Zeldas share, not to mention that aside from light arrows, Zelda doesn't have moves. it would be stupid for Link and Ganon to be faithful to TP and not Zelda, she turning into Sheik is like she turning into Tetra or WW Link turning into Wolf Link or TP Link putting on the Oni mask, it's stupid.

R.I.P. logic

 

[Zevox]

Ike was more than an advertisement. He has 2 games, and both are the first in 3-D. He is obviously a revolution to FE, and is a staple for future Brawl games such as Marth. He is also the most critically acclaimed American FE character to date.

Ike is one of the three most popular Fire Emblem characters to date in Japan as well, though, with his only peers being Marth and Sigurd. Recall how he was among the handful of characters to get 4 mentions in Sakurai's "poll?" Thats not an accident. Ike is far more than an advertisement, but also more than just a US/international favorite. If any FE character were going to get in on pure international popularity, it would have been Lyn, and look what happened with her.

Zevox

 

[ph00tbag]

I was going to say everything Chaos Blade said, but then he said it. All I can do now is throw a +1 his way.

As to the OP: so much for unbiased. I feel like you're harboring some intense dislike for Sheik, since you count her out despite overwhelming evidence that she has a very good chance of being back in, as a transformation of Zelda.

 

[Intercept]

Well, since default Zelda is TP, and one of her changes is to OoT, and the others are just made up colored changes, one could argue that she is just as much OoT Zelda as TP.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Even though I find Marth's situatioin somehow similar to Ness's...

I doubt IKE will replace Marth. Marth is after all the 1st character from Fire Emblem, and has appeared many times after his game. They're even planning on remaking his game for the DS.

/unbiased statement.

I don't use MArth at ALL, but I don't think he should nor will get the boot.

Aside from that, I agree with everything else.

 

[Boofer]

And the Pokemon series. With Pokemon trainer, we currently have four playable pokemon movesets in Brawl. If Jigglypuff and Mewtwo return, we'll have six. This is just opinion, but I highly doubt we'll have more than that in Brawl. I don't care how popular Pokemon is, six playable characters and a truckload of Pokeball cameo appearances should be enough to cover all the bases.

Sounds like bias to me. It seems like people that want a new pokemon rep (as well as objective people) count Pokemon Trainer as one rep, but people that don't want another rep count him as 3 to conclude that there won't be anymore poke characters. I think people should count characters based on the actual character icons.

I'm almost willing to argue that the 3 in one character decision supports another Pokemon character because it would only take up one space on the character select screen (though this could be bias on my part). This would leave room for 2 or 3 more characters easily, with pokemon currently having only 2 reps.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ike is one of the three most popular Fire Emblem characters to date in Japan as well, though, with his only peers being Marth and Sigurd. Recall how he was among the handful of characters to get 4 mentions in Sakurai's "poll?" Thats not an accident. Ike is far more than an advertisement, but also more than just a US/international favorite. If any FE character were going to get in on pure international popularity, it would have been Lyn, and look what happened with her.

Zevox

It's not just advertisement, however Sigurd is still a more popular character then Ike in Japan, however making Ike more prevalent advertises Radiant Dawn, and that seems to be the only thing he has over Sigurd.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

5.03.a. Marth and Roy
Conclusion: Yes

I think it's pretty easy to determine that Marth has better chances than Roy - Roy only had one role, Marth's the "main FE" rep, and is starring in Fire Emblem DS.

5.06.a. Other Characters
Conclusion: No

In all intents and purposes, Eggplant Wizard COULD get in.

5.07.a. Other Kirby Characters
Conclusion: No

Not to say that there will be a Kirby character, but there are potential characters.

5.08.c. Other Mario Characters
Conclusion: Inconclusive

I'm of the opinion that Bowser Jr. could easily get into Smash.

5.10.a. Other Metroid Characters
Conclusion: No

Why can't Metroid get two new characters like Kirby did? And on top of that, Zamus does NOT count as a separate character no more than Sheik or Squirtle do.

5.11.b. Mewtwo
Conclusion: Inconclusive

I doubt they'd remove him - he's the most well-known legendary in the series, and probably the second most popular Pokémon in America and PAL regions.

5.12.a. Other Sonic Characters
Conclusion: Inconclusive

Sonic was announced as the major representative for Sega, they wouldn't use up space for a lesser Sonic character.

5.15.a. Shiek
Conclusion: No

Sakurai said that these are their SSBB versions. Let's just assume that Zelda's got her main moves - are those TP? No. And on top of that, they did not feature Zelda at E for All.

5.15.c Young Link
Conclusion: No

Wait, you're ruling out Young Link in any form just because he wasn't in one single game in the Zelda series? The cartoony Link has been in five different games, and in the case of two of them, they sold better in Japan than Twilight Princess.

5.15.d. Other Zelda Characters
Conclusion: Yes

I believe we'll get another Zelda character, but not because they're going to remove the most common form of Link.

 

[nobletoast]

Reason: There are already two characters from Donkey Kong that, together, represent both a new and unique character as well as a classic one. Also, other Donkey Kong characters would probably be too similar to D.K. and Diddy Kong to prove original enough for inclusion.

Oh dear. A Mr. K Rool is being shockingly being ignored here. Sniff arounf the K Rool (or simply play any game with the man himself in) to see how original and far removed from DK and Diddy the king can be.

And for those who say D.K. is an offshot of the Mario franchise, I propose to you that Mario is in fact an off shoot from the DK franchise. D.K. was here first.

Just because D.K. and Diddy make cameo appearences in the sport and party games doesnt mean their part of the same universe. On that logic Black Mage is also part of the Mario universe (Mario Hoops or something he was in, or so im informed). D.K. is thrown in to boost sales, simple as that. Unlike the Yoshi and Warioware franchises, the Donkey Kong franchise is the 9th selling of all time and 4th biggest selling Nintendo property. To dismiss the franchise as a mere expansion of the Mario one because they occasionaly like to go karting together is simply wrong.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

*sigh*

DK is not a DK game.

If it weren't for the title, people would say it's a Mario game and never make it DK's game. The title is the only reason people want to portray DK in that game as being more important than Bowser was.

The game was about Mario. Mario was the important character. Donkey Kong was the obligatory obstacle to Mario's goal. Just because Asteroids was called Asteroids doesn't mean that the game wasn't about a spaceship trying to not be destroyed.

 

[Zevox]

It's not just advertisement, however Sigurd is still a more popular character then Ike in Japan, however making Ike more prevalent advertises Radiant Dawn, and that seems to be the only thing he has over Sigurd.

Theres also the fact that hes an international Lord, while Sigurd is a Japan-only one, and that he is a recurring star, while Sigurd was not only a one-game one, but only the star for a brief portion of his. Ike and Marth both have those advantages over Sigurd, as well as over most other FE characters, which is why they're the most likely PCs in Brawl while everyone else is questionable.

Zevox

 

[nobletoast]

I was only trying to illustrate the flawed logic in the people who refuse to see the Donkey Kong franchise as its own and not one of Mario by suggesting something as ridiculus as calling Mario a DK spin-off.

How does whoever the star of the game effect the fact that Mario and D.K. are totally different franchises. D.K.'s appearence in that first game is much more iconic and remembered in popular culture than Jumpman's (who was later confirmed to be Mario or at least an early version of him). If you ask me they shared the billing. D.K. is far far from a Mario spin-off. Which was my point.

Whats yours? That D.K. is not its own franchise?

 

[Pieman0920]

Why does the list skip over Captain Falcon, yet keep in other sure characters Ganondorf and Luigi?

Whatever the case, I disagree with Metroid. It's to previlant now, and ZSS really is more like Sheik rather than a seperate character. There's room for one more there.

Also Mario only has three reps confirmed. (Why must people always try and group Yoshi into there?)

 

[OysterMeister]

Sounds like bias to me. It seems like people that want a new pokemon rep (as well as objective people) count Pokemon Trainer as one rep, but people that don't want another rep count him as 3 to conclude that there won't be anymore poke characters. I think people should count characters based on the actual character icons.

I'm almost willing to argue that the 3 in one character decision supports another Pokemon character because it would only take up one space on the character select screen (though this could be bias on my part). This would leave room for 2 or 3 more characters easily, with pokemon currently having only 2 reps.

Personally, I count characters by moveset. Poke Trainer has three fully playable movesets, each one complete with it's own special moves and standard moves. The trainer may be only one rep, but three movesets is three movesets no matter how you slice it, and you can't save any development time by giving them the same icon on the select screen.

So I'd say Pokemon has already been given three new characters, and it's borderlin unreasonable to expect a fourth.

 

[CosmeticPlague]

A nice attempt at trying to catch people's attention by attempting to "sound smart". I loled.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

I was only trying to illustrate the flawed logic in the people who refuse to see the Donkey Kong franchise as its own and not one of Mario by suggesting something as ridiculus as calling Mario a DK spin-off.

How does whoever the star of the game effect the fact that Mario and D.K. are totally different franchises. D.K.'s appearence in that first game is much more iconic and remembered in popular culture than Jumpman's (who was later confirmed to be Mario or at least an early version of him). If you ask me they shared the billing. D.K. is far far from a Mario spin-off. Which was my point.

Whats yours? That D.K. is not its own franchise?

Spin-off doesn't mean that it's not its own franchise.

DK is not its own universe - Mario, DK, Wario, and Yoshi are all connected. Spin-off should not be a dirty word.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

Personally, I count characters by moveset. Poke Trainer has three fully playable movesets, each one complete with it's own special moves and standard moves. The trainer may be only one rep, but three movesets is three movesets no matter how you slice it, and you can't save any development time by giving them the same icon on the select screen.

So I'd say Pokemon has already been given three new characters, and it's borderlin unreasonable to expect a fourth.

It's illogical to say that. By that logic, clones aren't at all even in the roster.

 

[volbound1700]

DK is on all the Mario sports games and party games. DK is a part of the Mario franchise.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

DK is on all the Mario sports games and party games. DK is a part of the Mario franchise.

Sonic's in a Mario sport game: he's a Mario franchise character. If you're being sarcastic, cool. If you're not, please, enlighten me.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Sonic's in a Mario sport game: he's a Mario franchise character. If you're being sarcastic, cool. If you're not, please, enlighten me.

He's in a Mario AND Sonic sports game.

DK is never a cameo character or guest character, he is consistently treated as "one of the gang".

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

He's in a Mario AND Sonic sports game.

DK is never a cameo character or guest character, he is consistently treated as "one of the gang".

That's why Toad's not there and Waluigi is, right? The pure appearence of Waluigi in it, makes it a filler game meant to stand out with Sonic.

 

[Zenigame]

This topic gets a number of things wrong, and I should've stopped reading after the first one I noticed:

The ratio of immediately playable characters to unlockables, in the first Smash Bros., was eight to four. In Melee it was fourteen to ten (not including Sheik).

Either way, some other errors:

1) "No" to a second MSG rep, "Inconclusive" to a second Sonic rep? I think Sakurai realizes that wouldn't be conducive to a good working relationship with Konami.

2) Forgot Game & Watch

3) Forgot Captain Falcon

4) "No" to K. Rool

5) "No" to Sheik

6) "No" to Ridley

I could keep going, but I think I've made my point.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

This guy's obviously an idiot who copypasta'd it from somewhere else. Compare his grammar here to his other few posts.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

That's why Toad's not there and Waluigi is, right? The pure appearence of Waluigi in it, makes it a filler game meant to stand out with Sonic.

That's actually really irrelevant, and I have no idea what you're going for with that post.

The fact that Sonic is in a game featuring Mario does not change the fact that:

A. Sonic started off with his own series, having nothing to do with Mario.
B. The game is half Sonic's.
C. Donkey Kong starred as the villain of Mario's. The definition of a spin-off would not entail the protagonist of Donkey Kong going off and having his own starring roles. Wario? He was a non-playable character, became one. Yoshi? He was a "vehicle", became a character. Luigi? Sidekick of Mario turned hero. Peach? Damsel turned heroine. And DK? Non-playable bad guy turned playable good guy. Name of the game notwithstanding, DK is as important to the game as Bowser - the antagonist of it all. He is a vital component of it, but Mario was the most important character - he was fighting the bad guy to rescue the damsel in distress. Take away DK, it eliminates the point of the game, but take away Mario, and there's no one to play as. In plot, all are vital, and each of the three has an equal share. However, a boss and an NPC are less vital than the playable character.

Looking at all Mario spin-offs, DK is constantly a major fixture in them. Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Sports, Mario vs. DK, etc. Just because DK is highly successful does not mean that he is "separated". It's not like he started out fighting Mario and left the series, he's consistently been a part of the "mini-plots" (basically, the insignificant plots of the party/racing/sports games). DK's main games may be disconnected, but it's not its own universe - they're directly connected. The DK series spun-off from Mario, and the only people who disagree are fans of it who want it to be treated as disconnected from Mario, when it simply isn't.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

That's actually really irrelevant, and I have no idea what you're going for with that post.

The fact that Sonic is in a game featuring Mario does not change the fact that:

A. Sonic started off with his own series, having nothing to do with Mario.
B. The game is half Sonic's.
C. Donkey Kong starred as the villain of Mario's. The definition of a spin-off would not entail the protagonist of Donkey Kong going off and having his own starring roles. Wario? He was a non-playable character, became one. Yoshi? He was a "vehicle", became a character. Luigi? Sidekick of Mario turned hero. Peach? Damsel turned heroine. And DK? Non-playable bad guy turned playable good guy. Name of the game notwithstanding, DK is as important to the game as Bowser - the antagonist of it all. He is a vital component of it, but Mario was the most important character - he was fighting the bad guy to rescue the damsel in distress. Take away DK, it eliminates the point of the game, but take away Mario, and there's no one to play as. In plot, all are vital, and each of the three has an equal share. However, a boss and an NPC are less vital than the playable character.

Looking at all Mario spin-offs, DK is constantly a major fixture in them. Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Sports, Mario vs. DK, etc. Just because DK is highly successful does not mean that he is "separated". It's not like he started out fighting Mario and left the series, he's consistently been a part of the "mini-plots" (basically, the insignificant plots of the party/racing/sports games). DK's main games may be disconnected, but it's not its own universe - they're directly connected. The DK series spun-off from Mario, and the only people who disagree are fans of it who want it to be treated as disconnected from Mario, when it simply isn't.

DK is not Mario's series. Lolo had his own series but later ended up as a Kirby enemy. What does that mean? Kirby/Lolo is a spin off of Kirby/Lolo?


Besides, my idea of the DK Series being it's own is not biased. I hate Diddy Kong, and everyone in that series that's not K. Rool or DK.

 

[Boofer]

He may be right about the starter characters (besides the 2 third parties). I think we may have a screen full of starters on the dojo. Personally, I think that's a good thing. More starters = more total characters. It also could mean that we weren't really being spoiled with unlockable characters (or at least not many).