A Brawl Gameplay Critique

[yshikllr]

brawl is boring compared to melee, that's all there is to it

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

you're good at making arguments.

you should be a lawyer.

 

['Fro]

Wow..... So because the game took out the extremely safe, spammable options that made the Melee tournament scene, it's now "boring"? What's been called "camping" in Smash so often is what most fighting fans call "zoning". Learning to keep your distance and not be able to just bum rush. Knowing which of your attacks can give you an advantage if you do want to rush, and open up oppurtunities for more damage. Knowing which attacks to use to counter your opponent, and when to use them, as well as when to just sit back and wait. If you have an attack that can consistently keep your opponent out if they mess up their approach, it's up to them to figure out how to deal with it.

Those are all fighting game essentials that were nearly made obsolete by Melee's top tiers and their spammable, ultra-safe approach games and deadly pressure. The only way to stop such play was by responding in kind. Granted, Bum proved that DK can stand up to spacies, but he was exceptional.

Just because Brawl takes away the Melee comfort zone of ultra-technical crazy offense away does not make it a worse game. Now that the game involves having to make your opponent mess up rather than having huge crutches, maybe there'll actually be more variety and balance in the tournament scene.

 

[Nemireck]

YES! Just read the OP, and I see that it basically sums up all of the complaints I've had for Brawl. Nice post, bravo!

I really hope that melee takes back over the competitve scene once everyone realizes how boring Brawl is.

And to repsond to the above poster:
You say that taking out offensive options has deepened the game? That makes no sense at all. Now the game is reduced to camping and either dodging or shield grabbing the opponents move. If you are on the offensive, you have very few options to limit the effectiveness of the opponent's camping. Now, you say that it is good to open up a defensive strategy. I say that it is stupid, because even though you are making defensive strategies more useful, you are limiting the fun of the game. Do you seriously think it is more fun to camp than play offensively?
Games where the only viable strategy is to camp always end up failing because camping gets boring, very quickly. Now look at melee. Because of the numerous way to approach your opponent, the game was more focused on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes and using that to kill them. Now that sounds more like a sport than Brawl's camp fest. Look at just about any sport: if you take advantage of the opponent's mistakes, you win. In brawl, there is nothing to take advantage of. If a player makes a mistake, they will just recover instantly to allow for another defensive attack. Nintendo purposefully did this to allow noobs at the game a fighting chance.

A defensive game is not the ONLY viable option in Brawl, it's an additional option that was not viable in Melee. A game with only one viable playing strategy with 4 viable characters is not a game with depth, it's a broken game. A fighting game where the only viable strategy that leads to victory is an all-out offense is NOT a proper fighting game, fun? Yes, very fun! But when defensive options are made obsolete by a myriad of offensive options, the game needs to be fixed. In Brawl, you can play offensively and win, or you can play defensively and win, THAT is a testament to the depth of the game. You can also use more than 4 ultra-fast characters to compete, which means the game is more balanced than it's predecessors, THAT is an indication of there being more depth.

Another thing you say is that the characters are much more balanced because of lack of l cancel and wavedashing. This also makes no sense. I love playing as Ganondorf in Brawl. But guess what? His landing lag from aerials makes him completely useless. If I miss an aerial, I am basically screwed because I can't l cancel it to a shield or attack. If l cancelling were stil in, Ganondorf would be a much better character. And in melee, characters like Ice Climbers and Luigi were made far more viable because of wavedashing.

Your argument about Gannon is meaningless, because it is only ONE example out of 39 playable characters. There are around 15 OTHER viable characters in the game (Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Sheik, Ike, Dedede, Olimar, Lucas, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Pit, Toon Link, R.O.B., Peach, oh, Squirtle, that's 16), and Melee had, count 'em (Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik), FOUR. Your comment about missed aerials supports my comment where I state that "You must be more careful about your move selection, because you no longer have an obligatory button-mash to cover up for your mistakes." In Brawl, Luigi is made viable by having near-lagless, very powerful aerials, and Ice Climbers have been buffed and given HUGE priority with their hammers. So they've had wave-dashing removed, but have been balanced in other ways.

Finally, another thing you say is that, by dumbing the game down, you get more people able to compete at a higher level. The downside is that the game is much more boring because of it. By dumbing the game down, the developers have destroyed the point of high level competition: to have fun. In melee, people strove to learn all the ATs and better their game because it was fun playing on a higher level. More fun than playing on a basic level. In Brawl, there is no incentive to get better because it just isnt as fun.

It may be boring to you, but to the multitude of players who enjoy a defensive option (and many, MANY more character options) in the game, it is MUCH more fun!

Your belief that the point of high level competition is "To have fun" is way off base. The point of high level competition is to win. Only to win. Now, you SHOULD be having fun, because it helps you to dedicate yourself to the game and get better, but the POINT of a high level competition is to decide who the best player at the contest is, and the goal is to WIN. Having 'fun' is what you do at your friend's house while playing with items on. In Brawl, it is STILL more fun to play at a higher level, because it is ALWAYS more fun to play with people who are close to the same skill-level that you are, and if you're good, that means tournaments and high level competition, but the GOAL of a high level competition is not to have fun, it is to WIN.

In conclusion, the logic that stripping down offensive capabilities balances the game and makes it more competitive is just plain wrong. You cannot take advantage of your opponents mistakes because it is almost impossible to combo. In fact, by giving every character insane recover time, its almost like the game awards you for getting hit. You get hit? No problem, just hit the other character if they try to follow up with an aerial. Or, just air dodge. This reduces the game, like the OP stated, to trading hits, which is not fun, AT ALL.

Your comments on recovery time and the lack of combos only indicate that, while you might really like the Smash series, you're not very good at Brawl. There are a number of combos that work from a a number of different %s available to a number of different characters, but you're not going to see the 0-death combos that have been prevalent in the series up til now, because they FIXED that aspect of the game. I am also more than capable of punishing my opponents for their mistakes, and have done so repeatedly in many many matches. The fact that I have both strung together attacks to create combos AND punished my opponents for their mistakes by using those combos proves that you are wrong.

 

[MaverickZer0]

And sometimes, you don't need a string of combos to punish a costly mistake... all you need is a, FAL-CWN PUNCH!

Sorry, had to.

 

[greenblob]

Yeah, as if the Falcon Punch can punish mistakes. It's too slow to do anything.
Your statement is ironic in that the only time Falcon Punching had any significant use was in Smash 64...as a combo finisher.

 

[LoVer]

Brawl is fantastic. This thread is wrong.

 

[Fletch]

I love when all the newcomers come to the boards and pretend to know what they are talking about.

A defensive game is not the ONLY viable option in Brawl, it's an additional option that was not viable in Melee. A game with only one viable playing strategy with 4 viable characters is not a game with depth, it's a broken game. A fighting game where the only viable strategy that leads to victory is an all-out offense is NOT a proper fighting game, fun? Yes, very fun! But when defensive options are made obsolete by a myriad of offensive options, the game needs to be fixed. In Brawl, you can play offensively and win, or you can play defensively and win, THAT is a testament to the depth of the game. You can also use more than 4 ultra-fast characters to compete, which means the game is more balanced than it's predecessors, THAT is an indication of there being more depth.

Check out recent matches of tourneys. Watch the camping. It is a dominant strategy at this point, and allows anyone to be good rather easily. It's really annoying, yet really effective; because of the lack of hitstun in this game, you are never really rewarded for being aggressive as you cannot combo in this game. Couple this with other things such as loss of L-cancel and WD and the floaty physics in general, and this is a game where defense is the only current option if you want to be good. Melee spread these options out much better.

Your argument about Gannon is meaningless, because it is only ONE example out of 39 playable characters. There are around 15 OTHER viable characters in the game (Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Sheik, Ike, Dedede, Olimar, Lucas, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Pit, Toon Link, R.O.B., Peach, oh, Squirtle, that's 16), and Melee had, count 'em (Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik), FOUR. Your comment about missed aerials supports my comment where I state that "You must be more careful about your move selection, because you no longer have an obligatory button-mash to cover up for your mistakes." In Brawl, Luigi is made viable by having near-lagless, very powerful aerials, and Ice Climbers have been buffed and given HUGE priority with their hammers. So they've had wave-dashing removed, but have been balanced in other ways.

Again this is just idiotic, and shows you have never played Melee. A Jigglypuff won the last major Melee tournament, beating countless amounts of the best players of those characters in the world. I guess that's irrelevant, along with top players like Chu and Bum among countless others that play all mid to low tier characters. Someone should tell them that there are only 4 viable characters in Melee, they don't seem to know.

It may be boring to you, but to the multitude of players who enjoy a defensive option (and many, MANY more character options) in the game, it is MUCH more fun!

Opinion, but from everything I've been hearing most people don't like the direction the game is headed. Can't say you are personally wrong here, but I hate the campy nature of Brawl thus far.

Your belief that the point of high level competition is "To have fun" is way off base. The point of high level competition is to win. Only to win. Now, you SHOULD be having fun, because it helps you to dedicate yourself to the game and get better, but the POINT of a high level competition is to decide who the best player at the contest is, and the goal is to WIN. Having 'fun' is what you do at your friend's house while playing with items on. In Brawl, it is STILL more fun to play at a higher level, because it is ALWAYS more fun to play with people who are close to the same skill-level that you are, and if you're good, that means tournaments and high level competition, but the GOAL of a high level competition is not to have fun, it is to WIN.

Yes the point of competition is to win, but realistically fun is a huge aspect of this as well. If it is just to win money, then you are essentially taking a part-time job with little to no return. The reason competition is so big though is due to the thrill of it; right now, it's really not enjoyable because there's no major skill barrier thus far and it seems as if there's not much to get better at, where Melee had near infinite depth.

Your comments on recovery time and the lack of combos only indicate that, while you might really like the Smash series, you're not very good at Brawl. There are a number of combos that work from a a number of different %s available to a number of different characters, but you're not going to see the 0-death combos that have been prevalent in the series up til now, because they FIXED that aspect of the game. I am also more than capable of punishing my opponents for their mistakes, and have done so repeatedly in many many matches. The fact that I have both strung together attacks to create combos AND punished my opponents for their mistakes by using those combos proves that you are wrong.

There are no real combos in this game, play any competent player and he will get out of them with the plethora of buffs that defense received. Hell, all the opponent has to do now is continually air dodge because there's next to no hit stun and he can't get punished after the new air dodge takes place. He still has other options such as the improved DI and just using floatiness to his benefit. Punishment doesn't really exist anymore either, because even though you can "punish" your opponent, the benefit isn't as great as everything you get through if he's camping you properly. The bolded statement just proves that you're a bad player or playing against horrible players.

If you're going to post anything comparing Melee and Brawl, make sure you have at least some idea what you are talking about.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

all you did was tell him he was wrong and then repeat the same old tired complaints.

i am having just as much (or, occasionally, more) fun with brawl as i had with melee. it is not more boring.

there are combos in this game. you can't really do the ken combo any more, but you can still combo.

i haven't seen anyone camp yet, online or in videos.

you're right, there were more than 4 characters who were viable in competitive melee play, it's more like 7. you win this round. because we all know the argument is over the exact number and not the fact that it's only about a fourth of the total cast, right?

 

[Fletch]

all you did was tell him he was wrong and then repeat the same old tired complaints.

Address my complaints and tell me where I am wrong, I will be glad to listen.

i am having just as much (or, occasionally, more) fun with brawl as i had with melee. it is not more boring.

That's you, a lot of people don't like this game that much from a competitive standpoint, but as I said before, it's your opinion of whether or not you like this game or not, and I'm not going to really care which one you prefer.

there are combos in this game. you can't really do the ken combo any more, but you can still combo.

Show me a video of one please. There are a few, they are just very limited and usually can only occur at very low percents due to the reasons listed before.

i haven't seen anyone camp yet, online or in videos.

Here's 4 for you, try to watch these, these were taken from a tourney in the Midwest over the weekend and feature 2 players that placed very high.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nj6ZLFjtNVI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kxgOkRyG3ho
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Noq5cNGM6A
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BfR9zIQ6FPE

you're right, there were more than 4 characters who were viable in competitive melee play, it's more like 7. you win this round. because we all know the argument is over the exact number and not the fact that it's only about a fourth of the total cast, right?

The same thing is happening to Brawl, if you can't camp effectively with a character, you are not going to be able to really use them well. I'm not saying Melee is supremely balanced, but it is much better than all the newcomers make it out to be, and there are definitely more than those 4 viable characters.

 

[Veil2222]

I've gotta disagree with turtling being as buffed as people feel it is. I got hit with the defensive buff pretty hard as my style is agressive, and my main sparring partner is defensive. I had to get rid of my melee habits to learn how to approach all over again, and some of the game mechanics actually helped me with this. The huge DI buff goes both ways, with alot of characters, I can actually approach, shield pressure, and DI away all with one areal attack. If you pressure near an edge, they'll fall off no matter what character they are given the right attack. There's a lot more here and I can explain my finding in detailed if asked to.

For combos, I disagree here too, but I may have a bias or skewed information because of the characters I play. Mostly, as far as comboing, I can reliably combo or mind game/combo with Toon Link, Ike, and Sonic. I can list the specific combos, but first let me note that there aren't done on a dummy level 1 cpu, or a crappy player who just didn't DI. The combos I'm referring to are on my sparring partner for competition who is of equal (and sometimes greater) skill than me, and for some of these I have to compensate/predict his DI, and sometimes, this breaks the combo or gets me punished. Again, if you want a combo listing/situations they come up, I can list them if needed.

 

[MaverickZer0]

Ugh... people complaining that this game isn't competitive aren't giving it time to evolve, or a chance for it to evolve. You want things to be perfect RIGHT NOW. It won't be 7 years before the game evolves into Melee, but it WILL take time.

Rome wasn't built in a day... and neither will be supremely competitive Brawl matches. So right now, enjoy yourselves, train and figure out a viable strategy while the games competition is still in it's INFANCY. That way, when competition does mature, you'll already be way ahead of those who are just getting into it, because they went back to Melee to play "more competitively".

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i only bothered watching the first of your videos, fletch.

this is quit the self-fulfilling prophecy you've all created. i mean, honestly, rob can shoot a disc that he's locked out of using again if the disc is still on the field, and he can fire a laser that requires a recharge time. and he "successfully" camped against snake, who has access to two nades (that can be cooked), a guided missile, two kinds of mines, and a mortar, not to mention his hand to hand capabilities. but all that was worthless because, hey, the only viable strategy is chucking one nade at a time, right?

this supreme display of camping looks incredibly easy to dismantle, it just never happened because you all seem to have bought into this idea that you can only camp in brawl. where was the airdodging? or the rolling? or the ducking? even in close quarters battle, the two players just rolled away from each other and lobbed more projectiles. no pressure applied at all... because rob's laser is THAT powerful, right?

like i said, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. if all you do is camp, then this will be a camping game. maybe snake should have used those nades to cover his approach and then thrown some knees? nah, that's a dumb idea. then that match wouldn't have been as campy, and you wouldn't have anything to ***** about.

 

[Conda]

There's no hitstun. That, there, is the problem.
It's fast brawl or nothing. Trust me.

 

[Rash]

i only bothered watching the first of your videos, fletch.

this is quit the self-fulfilling prophecy you've all created. i mean, honestly, rob can shoot a disc that he's locked out of using again if the disc is still on the field, and he can fire a laser that requires a recharge time. and he "successfully" camped against snake, who has access to two nades (that can be cooked), a guided missile, two kinds of mines, and a mortar, not to mention his hand to hand capabilities. but all that was worthless because, hey, the only viable strategy is chucking one nade at a time, right?

this supreme display of camping looks incredibly easy to dismantle, it just never happened because you all seem to have bought into this idea that you can only camp in brawl. where was the airdodging? or the rolling? or the ducking? even in close quarters battle, the two players just rolled away from each other and lobbed more projectiles. no pressure applied at all... because rob's laser is THAT powerful, right?

like i said, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. if all you do is camp, then this will be a camping game. maybe snake should have used those nades to cover his approach and then thrown some knees? nah, that's a dumb idea. then that match wouldn't have been as campy, and you wouldn't have anything to ***** about.

I kind of agree here. The game is what you make it to be. Brawl is more "camp-friendly" as its defense has been buffed, but it's truly up to the players to try to turn that on its head.

It just seems like people aren't trying to have fun with Brawl. It really just seems that they only care about assessing it as if it was Melee. Everyone always sounds like they have confirmation bias; that nothing can be changed and only arguments against Brawl are valid. It just kind of sucks to know that so many people are set at putting Brawl down in the name of Melee rather than trying to toy around and develop new tactics the way they should be developed. Melee had its chance for several years to prove itself as a competitive game. Brawl has only been given two months overall, and less than a month in the states. I'm not saying that there's some "miracle cure" to Brawl's lack of competitive edge (in the established sense), but it really seems like more people are set on giving up on it as a boring game than trying harder to develop its metagame. Why? Because the metagame isn't EXACTLY like Melee's. Boo hoo.

 

[MaverickZer0]

There is no hitstun at 0% and with certain attacks.... Remember Falco's blaster in Melee? It was DESIGNED to not stun.

Certain attacks in this game are the opposite, as the focus here is to keep brawling and not give a spammer an advantage. Some attacks have a good stun, that set up for juggles and spikes. You can't expect to Beat somebody right off the bat from 0%, unless they suck at DI or you cape them on their last jump.

 

[Rash]

There is no hitstun at 0% and with certain attacks.... Remember Falco's blaster in Melee? It was DESIGNED to not stun.

Certain attacks in this game are the opposite, as the focus here is to keep brawling and not give a spammer an advantage. Some attacks have a good stun, that set up for juggles and spikes. You can't expect to Beat somebody right off the bat from 0%, unless they suck at DI or you cape them on their last jump.

True. There's plenty of strategy around using a character's well-rounded moveset. When guys like Azen said Brawl was more character-based, they weren't lying. Hell, unlike Melee, Brawl relies a lot on the fact that different characters need to approach each other with their unique attacks. It's not always about which attack is quicker,which attack has the least lag, or which attack can kill at low percentages. There's a lot more to take into consideration.

 

[MaverickZer0]

Exactly, Rash.

Which is why it's harder for the melee pros who come here clamoring for competitiveness to get integrated into this game.

Sure, every char has directional moves, but they all need to be considered for what they do, not just how they look etc. It's a lot more in depth than Melee, in that sense, and it's going to take a bit to fully utilize the potential of each char, and overall, the game.