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A Brawl Gameplay Critique

vnhaydn

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
13
Wow. I pretty much worded everything I was thinking about this game, especially the whole Melee 3.0 comparison. "It's not Melee 2.0 spam spam!" Brawl IS a Smash game and to analyze it, we need to compare it to other similar games, such as its predecessor. It's all relative.

I think people are giving Brawl too much credit. It's overrated only because its predecessor was so amazing and because (sadly) the next Smash game won't appear for 6+ years.

I like your Pikachu top tier comment.
 

onlinenow25

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
18
LOL, i just hear a whole lot of complaining about brawl. So your gonna get ownd now and you dont like that?

You dont like that an average joe can be better than you?

And you dont like the fact that the game no longer requires fast fingers?

Thats all i hear. All im hearing from you TC is just complaining. Why dont you stop playing brawl then if you hate it so much. Just quit, play melee if its so much better. Go for it, ill be over here playing brawl.
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
this game is just as competitive as melee. there are still tons of mind games and the game still goes pretty fast. the game requires alot of strategy. i really dont get why you guys complain about brawl so much, what it doesnt have your precious wavedashing and l-canceling? if you people need those to like brawl than you shouldnt be playing at all. this game might be easier for people to get into but it doesnt favor unexperienced players, i have mopped the floor with rookies and even players that i could tell that were experienced. its still very competitive and ive had several 5 stock matches lasting over 10 mins. we were both trying to find strategies to get around each others defenses the matches were still intense. you guys saw melee as an awesome game i saw it as flawed with many characters really unbalanced compared to others.
 

E P I C

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
411
Location
Smashville
this game is just as competitive as melee. there are still tons of mind games and the game still goes pretty fast. the game requires alot of strategy. i really dont get why you guys complain about brawl so much, what it doesnt have your precious wavedashing and l-canceling? if you people need those to like brawl than you shouldnt be playing at all. this game might be easier for people to get into but it doesnt favor unexperienced players, i have mopped the floor with rookies and even players that i could tell that were experienced. its still very competitive and ive had several 5 stock matches lasting over 10 mins. we were both trying to find strategies to get around each others defenses the matches were still intense. you guys saw melee as an awesome game i saw it as flawed with many characters really unbalanced compared to others.
so you like it because it doesnt require skill anymore? ok, i guess. tell me one game that has no flaws in it that is competitive. they all got glitches and ****. and 5 stock matches? im done with you.
 

Nemireck

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
Just because some useful techniques were removed and the physics were changed (Look, I summed up his entire post in one sentence!) does not mean the game won't be as competitive or as that it has less depth.

What these changes have done (hopefully, it's still early to tell for sure) is make many many more characters viable in competitive play. It's no longer a game of "I can wavedash and L-Cancel better than you, so I can win with Game+Watch against you're Marth." It's a game where you need to use a different skill set other than being able to time wave-dashes and mash out combos as quickly as your fingers can let you. Mind-games are going to be huge in Brawl with combos being harder to pull off, you're going to need to fake your opponent into a mistake.

Dash-Dancing is still in the game, it can still fake-out your opponent, it IS a very small movement distance back and forth. In the end, I feel this is a matter of taste, than of anything meaningful actually being removed from the game, it's still there, just in a different form. Fast-Falling is the same argument, it's still there, but modified. It ties in with the whole game being slowed down to a speed between Melee and 64.

A more defensive game (if you're correct) doesn't mean it's worse, it means it's different. I, for one, am very happy that Wavedashing has been removed. I felt that Smash Bros 64 was a better game because you didn't need to rely on a broken game mechanic to succeed (actually, Z-canceling, but it was much easier to do than Wave-Dashing and thus, anyone could learn it in a few tries). You're right though, many approaching options have been removed... But, while some options have been removed, other options have been added. In other words, options that were removed BECAUSE of Wave-Dashing are now viable because it is gone.

Throws not being as powerful as they are in 64, and not being as weak and 'guaranteed' combo starters as they work in Melee is a change, not a detriment. And it's one I think is fair. The point of a throw should be to move your opponent out of attacking range, but it should never be so devastating as to kill someone at semi-low percentages or set them up into a guaranteed bashing. It's a defensive maneuver this time around, and that's a change that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I don't know what your problem is with DI exactly... so you survive a little longer depending on who you are and who you're playing against, Power Characters like Ike can KO at <50%, weaker characters like Fox need to do upwards of 125% for dependable killing blows... this seems like a balance issue to me, and one that's long overdue. Fox, with his unimaginable speed and dexterity, should NEVER have had the ability to do a killing blow at less than 125%!!! This is a balance issue, and has been addressed in the correct manner. Play as Marth, and you're pulling off killing blows around 100%, just like common-sense game-balance would dictate!

You are right that character match-ups will be very important, but that should have always been the case!!! A game with 39 playable fighters should have more than 4-8 competitive characters! At least HALF of the characters should be able to compete in high-level play, that's a MINIMUIM demand, and Brawl appears to have met that demand.

Mismatched movesets is a bogus argument. Your Luigi example is a prime example of why the balance in Melee was so poor. Some characters were limited to a very few attack options, Luigi always having to deal with sending his opponent sky-high was great from a stylistic point of view, but limited his attacking potential. The movesets in Brawl are almost identical for most of the characters in the game, and the new characters have sets of moves that I'm more than happy with. Pit's B moves are a bit of a WTF, but that's one instance out of 39... You need to go more in-depth with this argument for it to hold any bearing at all.

Diminishing returns ties in with the higher-percentage kills. It will either make no difference at the competitive level, or it will have a huge effect on competitive strategies and styles trying to use it to it's full potential. Again, not a bad thing, just different.

Crouch-Canceling ties in with the whole argument that you simply need a new strategy when playing brawl, some options are removed with it, others are made viable. The new air-dodge system is fine. Ledge-Guarding is just as easy as it was in Melee and 64. Power-Shielding may be more powerful, I've noticed almost no difference in actual gameplay from my experience playing so far.

Tripping is a garbage addition to the game, but happens so infrequently that it probably won't have a huge impact on competitive play. I'll agree that it's unfair and one of the worst implementations in any fighting game ever. I don't agree that it will be the paria that kills Brawl, we'll all learn to suck it up and deal with it, and we'll move on.

All in all, I just want to wrap up by stating that removal of advanced techniques =/= less competitive play. In fact, it INCREASES the competitive play by allowing more players to compete. When the focus is on timing of moves and mind-games ala SSB64 rather than advanced techniques and combos ala Melee, more players are able to compete at a high level. Thus your entire argument can be flipped around to state that "Due to the removal of some of the advanced techniques from Melee, Brawl will become a MORE competitive game as more players will be able to compete with the best."

Consider it so.
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
so you like it because it doesnt require skill anymore? ok, i guess. tell me one game that has no flaws in it that is competitive. they all got glitches and ****. and 5 stock matches? im done with you.
now you are putting words in my mouth. i never said i liked it because it requires no skill... and thats where you dont know what you are talking about. so are you telling that brawl requires no skill anymore? that i can simply grab the game and button mash? the game requires alot of skill with or without wavedashing or l-canceling. i guess you are not good enough in brawl.. im done with you
 

samboghini

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8
Location
somewhere in the blue Caribbean seeeeaaaa... Grena
Hi, new here...

So what I'm getting here is that people think Brawl's system is not designed to be as competitve as Melee's turned out to be, simply because it gives everyone an even playing field...
Wouldn't that then make Brawl even more competitive? I mean, now to win a match, you actually have to be really good (notwithstanding the random elements that can turn the tide... in this respect, I guess there really is no excuse for tripping). Still, if played under competitive rules, it just means that there is no surefire way of using a technique or two to instantly gain the upper hand. You now have to think of other means to beat your opponent, relying now not only on just skill, but timing and layout as well.
As for those who tend to play cheaply, be it spamming or anything else, wouldn't victory over them be all the more sweeter, as you can now say you are the best at what you do DESPITE noob tactics/luck? There will always be a way to win (if you're good).
Oh, and more noobs = more people to play against = more competition. At least with online, you won't have to hear them complaining right next to you.
All that said, I play Brawl for the first time hopefully Sunday. Let's see if I change my tune then...
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
Hi, new here...

So what I'm getting here is that people think Brawl's system is not designed to be as competitve as Melee's turned out to be, simply because it gives everyone an even playing field...
Wouldn't that then make Brawl even more competitive? I mean, now to win a match, you actually have to be really good (notwithstanding the random elements that can turn the tide... in this respect, I guess there really is no excuse for tripping). Still, if played under competitive rules, it just means that there is no surefire way of using a technique or two to instantly gain the upper hand. You now have to think of other means to beat your opponent, relying now not only on just skill, but timing and layout as well.
As for those who tend to play cheaply, be it spamming or anything else, wouldn't victory over them be all the more sweeter, as you can now say you are the best at what you do DESPITE noob tactics/luck? There will always be a way to win (if you're good).
Oh, and more noobs = more people to play against = more competition. At least with online, you won't have to hear them complaining right next to you.
All that said, I play Brawl for the first time hopefully Sunday. Let's see if I change my tune then...
agreed....
 

Urglor

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
4
All your points make sense but the simple fact is, This isnt supposed to be a beffed up Melee with new content and the same gameplay. Just give it time to find out new ways to combo or do advanced techniques. You think you learned everything about Melee on how to do the advanced stuff in a few weeks? I dont think so. Give it some time, ive already seem some interesting topics about the c stick, so give it time. Im sure the creators of the game knew what they were doing.
 

MaximoSmasher

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
146
Location
NJ
So what I'm getting here is that people think Brawl's system is not designed to be as competitve as Melee's turned out to be, simply because it gives everyone an even playing field...
Wouldn't that then make Brawl even more competitive?
Yes!

But Elitism makes people sour about it.
 

Mama

Smash Ace
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
776
Location
Richmond California (northern)
Not even going to bother reading a thread about critiquing a game before its even out thats ********. I'm only going to say a few things and keep it short.

Brawl isn't Melee - True however, you do need something to compare it to in order to judge certain things. That said, you can't rate Brawl by Melee. Only compare things. You can not judge the competitive aspect of Brawl until you see it at its peak which you can't now. So saying Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee is just as fu_cking ******** as saying "this isn't Melee 2.0 over and over and over. Things have changed. You can't approach players the way you did in Melee. Idiots see that and say that you can't approach them period. That just means you'll need to change the way you approach. Other idiots see that and say "well this character doesn't have that many approaching moves" then that character wont be top tier. The character tiers will evolve around which characters have the best approach etc etc. You need to give the game time before you start to ***** and complain like a bunch of god **** noobs. The more jack assery threads like this the worse the scrubs view the tournament level players. They take fools like the OP as an example of what the rest of us our like. Mean while the actual good players aren't even wasting their time lamenting over changes and finding was to adapt.
 

vnhaydn

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
13
I wonder, if Nintendo knew about the reaction of the Smash community, would they have changed anything? Their whole approach was to attract a larger audience and the price was taking depth out of the game. From this marketing standpoint, Brawl is a success.

I'm still disappointed in Brawl. I just hope as time goes on, the game will increase in depth.
 

arrowhead

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
723
Location
under a rock
Just because some useful techniques were removed and the physics were changed (Look, I summed up his entire post in one sentence!) does not mean the game won't be as competitive or as that it has less depth.
brawl lovers don't realize that the advanced techs they took away isn't the biggest problem. it's the game mechanics: floaty characters and very little hitstun. it makes it so it's hard to chain two moves together and almost impossible to chain 3

Dash-Dancing is still in the game, it can still fake-out your opponent, it IS a very small movement distance back and forth. In the end, I feel this is a matter of taste, than of anything meaningful actually being removed from the game, it's still there, just in a different form. Fast-Falling is the same argument, it's still there, but modified. It ties in with the whole game being slowed down to a speed between Melee and 64.
you need VERY fast fingers to dashdance, which is something you are against.

A more defensive game (if you're correct) doesn't mean it's worse, it means it's different. I, for one, am very happy that Wavedashing has been removed. I felt that Smash Bros 64 was a better game because you didn't need to rely on a broken game mechanic to succeed (actually, Z-canceling, but it was much easier to do than Wave-Dashing and thus, anyone could learn it in a few tries). You're right though, many approaching options have been removed... But, while some options have been removed, other options have been added. In other words, options that were removed BECAUSE of Wave-Dashing are now viable because it is gone.
a more defensive game means projectiles own and camping is the way to go. it's just not as exciting

Throws not being as powerful as they are in 64, and not being as weak and 'guaranteed' combo starters as they work in Melee is a change, not a detriment. And it's one I think is fair. The point of a throw should be to move your opponent out of attacking range, but it should never be so devastating as to kill someone at semi-low percentages or set them up into a guaranteed bashing. It's a defensive maneuver this time around, and that's a change that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
throws in brawl are too weak to kill, but too strong to combo out of. so it's just that - a low damage, one hit move.

I don't know what your problem is with DI exactly... so you survive a little longer depending on who you are and who you're playing against, Power Characters like Ike can KO at <50%, weaker characters like Fox need to do upwards of 125% for dependable killing blows... this seems like a balance issue to me, and one that's long overdue. Fox, with his unimaginable speed and dexterity, should NEVER have had the ability to do a killing blow at less than 125%!!! This is a balance issue, and has been addressed in the correct manner. Play as Marth, and you're pulling off killing blows around 100%, just like common-sense game-balance would dictate!
the DI links with floatyness. combined, they allow characters to be hit at a 45 degree angle and be able to get back to the stage sometimes without even using a jump. that plus the new auto-sweetspot make edgeguarding extremely difficult

All in all, I just want to wrap up by stating that removal of advanced techniques =/= less competitive play. In fact, it INCREASES the competitive play by allowing more players to compete. When the focus is on timing of moves and mind-games ala SSB64 rather than advanced techniques and combos ala Melee, more players are able to compete at a high level. Thus your entire argument can be flipped around to state that "Due to the removal of some of the advanced techniques from Melee, Brawl will become a MORE competitive game as more players will be able to compete with the best."[/QUOTE]
in a sense you're right. brawl may become more competitive because there are more people playing. but analyze the matches seperately, and brawl fights won't be half as quick or gripping as melee. the game mechanics and removal of universal advanced techniques crush the depth of the game. and THAT'S what we mean when we say it won't be as competitive.
 

greenblob

Smash Lord
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
1,632
Location
SF Bay Area
Waitwaitwait... Smash 64 isn't about combos? Are you kidding me?

Anyway, I still stick by my original position: no combos = horrible game. Hopefully we'll discover a way to do crazy combos sometime soon.
 

arrowhead

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
723
Location
under a rock
They are unfortunately, I'm sorry you're too blind not to see this. I'm just saying his approach shows he's looking for a scapegoat because no real decent competitive player would give two ****s because a game differs from its predecessor. This is just documentation with a list of reasons why he will lose. I've never heard a decent player get good by complaining about a game.
it's not that the game is different, it's that it's a watered-down version of melee. just because somebody complains about the game doesn't mean he won't be good at it. you have to be very narrow-minded to think that
 

Mercury

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
99
ignoring narrow-minded physics arguments, there ARE combos. jesus christ, if you would just actually try to find some instead of assuming you can't just because characters can't do the exact same ones and complain about it, you'd realize that they are clearly there.

not only that, but everything is very character specific in brawl. you're not going to get Ike pulling off 5-hit combos, but I mean, come on... just look at MK. tell me with a straight face that he can't do combos. other than with him and other characters, it will just take a lot of time using improv combos until people realize exactly how to do one.

PS. you can use throws to combo, don't be stupid. regardless, throws were mainly in fighters to counter characters that block, and again if you would just stop complaining about how it doesn't currently work compared to how it used to, you would realize that the campy nature of this game is immediately countered by throwing, even if you don't "capitalize on the mistake" by throwing them across the level at 50% which is just stupid. also, projectiles characters are countered by characters who crawl. the strategy is a lot less like other smashes and more like most fighters. either deal with it or shut up and play melee, the people who do enjoy the game and have moved on from the silly notion that this was intended to be like its predacessor do not appreciate your heavily narrow-minded critique.

however, i do agree that there were some unnecessary things taken/added to the game, mainly crouch cancelling and tripping. other than things like that, your critique is basically all completely opinion and you didn't objectively think at all.
 

arrowhead

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
723
Location
under a rock
crawling does nothing to counter projectiles. practically all projectiles can hit low

you're right about throwing though

and either you're exaggerating about comboing or you play really bad players. if you're serious, show me MK combos (no uair>uair>uair please)
 

FaceLoran

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
2,333
Location
Omaha, Nebraska
I'm loving how everyone coming in here defending Brawl is a noob who couldn't wavedash or l-cancel...that says a lot. Of course, that statement wasn't uniformly true but it's sure looking like a good generalization...I can't believe someone actually was saying they were thankful that you dont need fast fingers anymore. Hello...Skill? And saying you need to wavedash to win in Melee is simply ridiculous. Play Peach if you're so against it but wanna be competitive.
 

Nemireck

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
I'm loving how all the brawl haters are whining because their precious WaveCrutch is gone. They no longer have a glitch to fall back on to be able to gain an advantage over better players who are able to play the game the way it was supposed to be played. Now that the programmers fixed the game balance and their precious bug, they don't know what to do!
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
I'm loving how all the brawl haters are whining because their precious WaveCrutch is gone. They no longer have a glitch to fall back on to be able to gain an advantage over better players who are able to play the game the way it was supposed to be played. Now that the programmers fixed the game balance and their precious bug, they don't know what to do!
:laugh: just name the game super wavedashing bros. because wavedashing is more important than anything else. without wavedashing the game is just random luck drawn out of a hat and takes no skill to play.
 

greenblob

Smash Lord
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
1,632
Location
SF Bay Area
ignoring narrow-minded physics arguments, there ARE combos. jesus christ, if you would just actually try to find some instead of assuming you can't just because characters can't do the exact same ones and complain about it, you'd realize that they are clearly there.

not only that, but everything is very character specific in brawl. you're not going to get Ike pulling off 5-hit combos, but I mean, come on... just look at MK. tell me with a straight face that he can't do combos. other than with him and other characters, it will just take a lot of time using improv combos until people realize exactly how to do one.

PS. you can use throws to combo, don't be stupid. regardless, throws were mainly in fighters to counter characters that block, and again if you would just stop complaining about how it doesn't currently work compared to how it used to, you would realize that the campy nature of this game is immediately countered by throwing, even if you don't "capitalize on the mistake" by throwing them across the level at 50% which is just stupid. also, projectiles characters are countered by characters who crawl. the strategy is a lot less like other smashes and more like most fighters. either deal with it or shut up and play melee, the people who do enjoy the game and have moved on from the silly notion that this was intended to be like its predacessor do not appreciate your heavily narrow-minded critique.

however, i do agree that there were some unnecessary things taken/added to the game, mainly crouch cancelling and tripping. other than things like that, your critique is basically all completely opinion and you didn't objectively think at all.
Chaining a few quick/weak attacks is a sad excuse for a combo. I'm talking about stuff that kills - 0%-to-death or at least low%-to-death combos. These were a large part of what made both Smash 64 and Melee exciting and competitive. Even if we play on lightning mode, if there aren't any good combos, the gameplay will feel sluggish and dull.
 

Protocol9

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
25
Chaining a few quick/weak attacks is a sad excuse for a combo. I'm talking about stuff that kills - 0%-to-death or at least low%-to-death combos. These were a large part of what made both Smash 64 and Melee exciting and competitive. Even if we play on lightning mode, if there aren't any good combos, the gameplay will feel sluggish and dull.
0-Death inescapeable combos are bad. These things are simple button combinations that take almost no skill past learning them. They are not condusive to a competive environment and go against the kind of game smash is suppose to be in my opinion. These simply should not exist.

Combos however, should. I'm talking about things such as the fox running-a>u-tilt>u-air, marth u-throw>u-tilt>neutral-air/back-air, jigglypuff air juggles, as well as setup combos such as sheik down-tilt>f-air, CF down-air>f-air. Things like this should have been included into the game instead of the single hits we have now.

Combos should be in the game, and yes they should be inescapable to a point (still being made possible to influence the outcume by DI, ie attempt to make the opponent mess up the combo), but they shouldn't be huge combos. 40-50% damage from a combo and no more. There has to be a stoppign point, but they shouldn't have been removed from the game as they have been.

On a side note to the guy saying metaknight can combo, he can't, sorry. Nearly all of metaknights attacks are multiple hit attacks. Hitting with three hits from a single attack does not count as a combo. That's like saying i jab spammed you for a 20 hit combo. The hitstun from metaknight's moves is not long enough(just like every other character in the game) to be able to pull off a combo. Your opponent (whether he does or not) is ABLE to avoid any move you do next. The only exception to this is possibly his up-air spam against large characters, even then its highly unreliable and most likely able to be avoided. The combos you supposedly have or see, are only because your opponent is not trying to run away, but rather trying to attack back, or stay in close proximity. It's not that they can't avoid it, its simply they are choosing not to.
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
Chaining a few quick/weak attacks is a sad excuse for a combo. I'm talking about stuff that kills - 0%-to-death or at least low%-to-death combos. These were a large part of what made both Smash 64 and Melee exciting and competitive. Even if we play on lightning mode, if there aren't any good combos, the gameplay will feel sluggish and dull.
0 to death combos shouldnt ever be in any game
 

Kirby M.D.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
320
Greenblob said:
Chaining a few quick/weak attacks is a sad excuse for a combo. I'm talking about stuff that kills - 0%-to-death or at least low%-to-death combos. These were a large part of what made both Smash 64 and Melee exciting and competitive. Even if we play on lightning mode, if there aren't any good combos, the gameplay will feel sluggish and dull.
0-deaths are bad. Even with multiple stocks a 100%/0-death combo is not a tenet of a good game. It could be a necessary evil (lolhai ROM infinites, Lilica Heel-Drop loops, chaingrab kills, etc.), but it sure as hell doesn't make a game good. This is a problem I'm seeing with these arguments: the COMBOZ and ATs are the most noticeable parts of Melee, so they're the talking points that everyone relies on. This tends to make for annoying threads, since very few people back up what they say with anything substantial. At this point, it's gotten so bad that I don't even care if people don't give the game a chance. It doesn't matter what half-formed idea got excreted into his or her head; they just won't shut the **** up unless they have something different to say.
 

Nemireck

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
:laugh: just name the game super wavedashing bros. because wavedashing is more important than anything else. without wavedashing the game is just random luck drawn out of a hat and takes no skill to play.
I can't tell if you're laughing with me or at me ;) But I DO know that SSB64 was very competitive and there was no wave-dashing. And the loss of L-Canceling helps to balance certain characters, and was an obligatory button-mash to begin with, not very "skillful". Wavedashing did INDEED take skill, but just because it's gone doesn't mean the game has less options available to you. With the removal of wave-dashing, all of the options that wave-dashing removed (and yes, wave-dashing DID remove options, you had to adapt to playing a good wave-dasher and could no longer use some of the openings available to you against a non-wavedasher). Besides, more options =/= more competitive play. You increase competitiveness by simplifying a game. You don't need LESS skill, you need a DIFFERENT skill-set! It's not all about lightning-quick button-mashing. It's now about positioning, priority of attacks, timing and mind-games (ala SSB64). The fact that MORE players (oh yeah, and did I mention... CHARACTERS?!) are going to be able to compete at a high level than could compete in Melee is a GOOD thing!

More high level players = more competitive play!
 

greenblob

Smash Lord
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
1,632
Location
SF Bay Area
0-deaths are bad. Even with multiple stocks a 100%/0-death combo is not a tenet of a good game. It could be a necessary evil (lolhai ROM infinites, Lilica Heel-Drop loops, chaingrab kills, etc.), but it sure as hell doesn't make a game good. This is a problem I'm seeing with these arguments: the COMBOZ and ATs are the most noticeable parts of Melee, so they're the talking points that everyone relies on. This tends to make for annoying threads, since very few people back up what they say with anything substantial. At this point, it's gotten so bad that I don't even care if people don't give the game a chance. It doesn't matter what half-formed idea got excreted into his or her head; they just won't shut the **** up unless they have something different to say.
So you'd rather play Super Spacing Bros or Super Hit-and-Run Bros or Super Projectile Bros? Good combos are an essential part of every fighting game. And no, I'm not saying that Brawl=bad, I'm saying that if no one ever finds several good combos in Brawl, it won't be good.
 

Chrono Centaur

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
137
Uhh, the whole game itself isn't based all around skill and being the best. I mean, it's been a friendly game for about ever, and it's going to stay that way, whether the competitive Melee crowd tries to put back wavedashing (a glitch nonetheless) in, or get L-canceling via a download (which will not happen, ever).

All the comments in the OP's post are valid, but I still don't get why the competitive Melee crowd is having a fuss over this. If you don't like Brawl, stick with Melee for tournaments. :< Simple as that.
 

Nemireck

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
So you'd rather play Super Spacing Bros or Super Hit-and-Run Bros or Super Projectile Bros? Good combos are an essential part of every fighting game. And no, I'm not saying that Brawl=bad, I'm saying that if no one ever finds several good combos in Brawl, it won't be good.
Infinite and insta-kill combos that are impossible to DI out of, should never have existed in the first place. Combos are great as long as you aren't able to kill a person from 0. You should have to work for every kill, and just getting a lucky combo-starter to finish a guy off is not work, it's knowing a sequence of commands that will get you a kill. The idea behind nerfing (and they've only been nerfed, they aren't removed entirely) combos is that you now need to have the ability to damage your opponent multiple times before a killing-blow is landed.

You don't need combos to make a game good, what you need is balance, and so far, so good :)
 

Spyckie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
128
Location
Pittsburgh
I second that you don't need good combos to have a good fight.

great example is the last hugs vs ka master at the UCLA tourneys. Intense fight, mostly pokes with 1-2 followup at most.

Actually, a lot of low tier fights in melee are usually like this and it doesn't detract from the excitement of low tier battles at all.
 

Enshoku

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,128
Location
in a box of fading memories, and everlasting knowl
This board is getting out of hand the misconception on competition gaming.

Please if you new to the boards read this.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
ehh, so many people link to serlin now, this is why everyone insults each other with the phrase "scrub"

note: scrub is not an insult, nor a replacement for the phrase n00b, it is merely a very common play style so swinging it around on your morning star of insults is kinda... ignorant
 

Uck

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
333
Location
Sanford Florida
ehh, so many people link to serlin now, this is why everyone insults each other with the phrase "scrub"

note: scrub is not an insult, nor a replacement for the phrase n00b, it is merely a very common play style so swinging it around on your morning star of insults is kinda... ignorant

The term scrub which i never use is not a play style but a state of mind.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
 

greenblob

Smash Lord
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
1,632
Location
SF Bay Area
I'm not talking about something on the scale of Smash 64 or chainthrowing. I'm talking about having a few good combo-heavy characters and combos like Falcon's SHFFL chain, Jiggly's quadruple bair, Ken combo, etc.
 

Gazdakka Gizbang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
180
Chaining a few quick/weak attacks is a sad excuse for a combo. I'm talking about stuff that kills - 0%-to-death or at least low%-to-death combos. These were a large part of what made both Smash 64 and Melee exciting and competitive. Even if we play on lightning mode, if there aren't any good combos, the gameplay will feel sluggish and dull.
Nope. 0%-to-death combos should not be present in a game. Being able to chain in unavoidable and inescapable combo attacks that will guarantee a player's death regardless of damage don't belong in Smash, as games can boil down simply to who gets the first attack off, with players being unable to act against it once caught. I don't consider that exciting at all - if you get caught you're stuffed and it leads to a boring finish where everybody can already determine the fate of the battle before it's over.

However, that's not to say combos don't belong in the game - They do belong. Brawl isn't going to see a release here for a considerably long time, so I can't really experience for myself these limitations people are talking about. I doubt there will be much change between this version and the PAL iteration though, so what happens here probably won't be too different.

[EDIT]: Ok, that above post seems to clarify things a little better.
 

Kirby M.D.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
320
So you'd rather play Super Spacing Bros or Super Hit-and-Run Bros or Super Projectile Bros? Good combos are an essential part of every fighting game. And no, I'm not saying that Brawl=bad, I'm saying that if no one ever finds several good combos in Brawl, it won't be good.
Why yes, yes I would. I like Melee and Brawl for different reasons. They're different games, with different playstyles. Spacing is not a bad thing in any other fighting game community, projectiles are not that beast, and "Hit-and-Run" is a part of spacing. You know, there's this wonderful thing called "not getting punished" that's important to fighting games. What I'm saying is that combos are not the end all be all of what makes a fighting game good; the combos are an end, a facet of gameplay. Besides, this is your opinion, please qualify your statements with "to me" so it doesn't look like you're trying to speak for everyone.
 

Nemireck

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
ehh, so many people link to serlin now, this is why everyone insults each other with the phrase "scrub"

note: scrub is not an insult, nor a replacement for the phrase n00b, it is merely a very common play style so swinging it around on your morning star of insults is kinda... ignorant

Scrub is, and has been an insult to describe bad players in many games for many, many years. Is it a replacement for n00b? Not entirely, because a n00b is simply new to the game, whereas a scrub may have been playing for years, but is still a bad player.

Scrubishness is not a play-style, it is a mind-set. Scrubs are usually unwilling to do what needs to be done to win a game. For instance, I've played competitive Laser Quest for 7 years now, the worst player on my team has been playing for over 10 years, but other than getting better at positional play, he's never increased his skill level in the game... In fact, I was better than him in my first year of playing! Why? Because, in his own words "Just because I'm not willing to dance and flail around like you means I'm a bad player?!" He his unwilling to use the SAME techniques that make a player good at Laser Quest, and thus, he is a scrub.

The guy who linked to serlin may be mistaking people's distaste of wave-dashing for an inability to use the technique. Then again, many people on the boards probably ARE scrubs, and are unwilling to even learn the technique because it is a "cheap" glitch that ruins how the game was "intended" to be played.

I enjoy the fact that it's gone because it balances the character sheet that little bit more, and because it allows more players to compete at a high level, thus increasing competition.
 

MaverickZer0

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
32
Wow... I've never seen this kind of bickering... Let me offer some insight here:

For the Anti-Brawl: This game IS competitive. You can't blame the developers for fixing the flaws of Melee. It wasn't supposed to be a part of the game, but people exploited it anyway. As will be the case, I'm sure, when something comes up in Brawl.

Everyone needs to understand WHY the game needed to be slowed down. To take advantage of the Online capabilities, ask yourself: Could you see yourself playing Melee online? A game that relies on split-second timing, at speeds of something that would take a T-4 connection to play smoothly? Let's be honest here... Even the best consoles have lag. The game was slowed down in an effort to appease the masses by giving them a chance to get used to a slower pace, so they COULD implement an online feature.

As for the physics argument... that point is moot. It's about time that the game started to take on a bit more realistic element to it, instead of it just being "Smash and Kill". It brings about ACTUAL STRATEGY in a game that has been constantly criticized as being too much of a Slash and Bash, nonsensical series. I think we should be embracing this, because it's the first opportunity that they've had to impliment such a system. Not complaining because you can't take advantage of cheap efforts to steal a win.

(I did read the "win at all costs" bs topic, I don't agree with it.)

There are plenty of strategies where you CAN win at all costs, without being a spamming, exploiting loser of a player.

Here's a challenge... Why don't you try the exploit tactics against Tabuu? See how long you last. The moves and physics were changed to MAKE the game competetive. If the whiners would actually sit down and PLAY the game, they would realize this. Instead of complaining about all that's been "taken out" of the game, look at what the game has to offer.

Characters ARE balanced, contrary to popular belief... They are effective for different styles of play. Ike is powerful but slow, Marth is weak, yet agile. Faclon is fast yet hard to control, Ganondorf is Slow, bulky but extremely powerful.

Characters have strategies, we just need to find them and carve them out. So quit griping about it, and start playing!

I for one DO play to win. I'm very competetive, and I find this game is extremely entertaining and rewarding. (Just for those who claim I'm just a pacifist) I've beaten SSE on Intense... I know what it takes to win.
 
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