& 64 Weekly smashfests at A&C World. NOW ON FRIDAYS FROM 3PM - 8PM

[pidgezero_one]

Dom and I might be there

 

[LooftWaffles]

I came last week an no one showed, it was nice being the best player there. Hope that doesn't happen again tommorow

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Nope.

Today I'll be the best player there.

 

[infiniteV115]

Not coming today.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

You should have.

 

[pidgezero_one]

bro yesterday was the best lol

 

[infiniteV115]

Now I regret not going

What'd you guys do?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Played Brawl Minus free-for-alls with items set to all and none. Which meant DK's barrels spawned items :D

My amazing ninja abilities at grabbing smashballs were on display. Especially several times that didn't make sense.

It was glorious.

FTR, I main DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Peach in it.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I actually won a match!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Aquaman]

Sorry if this has been reiterated somewhere in this thread, I didn't bother reading all 22 pages because I'm lazy. You guys do Melee too right?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Melee is available but honestly not a lot of people are usually playing. Most of the melee players post in this thread though and have smashfests elsewhere: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89713&page=2230

Though sometimes Supreme Dirt and others are up for melee at A&C world

 

[infiniteV115]

Put an N64 emulator on my Wii so we can play SSB64. Problem is that it gets laggy when there are more than 2 people.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

How about I just bring my N64 from now on? I have 3 controllers with flawless control sticks.

Oh but I won't be there this Friday due to work.

 

[pidgezero_one]

A&C has n64s, less for you to carry lol


i wont be there friday either, dec 30 is kind of a special day for me and dom lol

 

[Aquaman]

Ahhh I see. To be honest though, how does Brawl appeal to you guys? Most competitive smashers prefer Melee over Brawl and when I first got Brawl, I tried my best to actually like it. But it just never compared to Melee and I had to accept the fact that I got hyped up and spent money on something I knew deep down didn't have the fast-paced, fun to watch gameplay that Melee was chalk full of haha.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

My biggest issue with Melee is simple: I am at heart a non-aggressive player. I need a way to space myself, a way to get breathing room, a nice projectile game, etc. Young Link is everything I want in a character, basically, aside from his very poor combo game. Unfortunately, whereas Brawl's top tier tends to be defensively broken, Melee's top tier - Fox and Falco in particular - are very much offensively broken. They're very hard characters to keep out in any respect, they have insane pressure games, and leave very little breathing room. I break fairly easily under pressure, so although at least for Fox I could go Link and stand a little more of a chance than YL, for the most part Melee is just not conducive to my strengths.

I mean for a regular fighter one of my strengths is my memory - I can often remember something I've read or heard verbatim, usually in the voice I heard it in, so my own for something I've read - so for a traditional fighter I CAN play rushdown, offensive characters, though I do usually opt for a gimmicky character, like Bridget or Arakune. However in Melee combos are much less memory oriented, much more reaction oriented, and simply speaking my reaction time is ***. My skill at techchasing doesn't appear to carry over to aerial combos.

Also another fairly important thing to me is having a diverse metagame. Yeah sure, Foxco vs. Marth is interesting... the first dozen times. Melee seems to me to be becoming increasingly more and more top tier with some high tier sprinkled here and there. And (maybe) 1 player of certain mid and low tiers and that's pretty much it. I mean even Taj has basically switched to Marth now. Brawl has a much larger pool of viable characters. With Metaknight banned, pretty much any character as far down as about Peach is viable. That's far more than the... maybe 8 in Melee. More likely 4.

Yet another factor that increases diversity, adds room for metagame advancement, and leads to matches that are simply interesting is stage selection. I don't fault trad. fighters on not having this, it's a non-issue. But a platform fighter like Smash Bros. does. Take 64: By and far my favourite Smash game. However, factor in the fact that there are only 4 legal stages, and in fact the only reason one of those 4 is legal (Hyrule Castle) is due to popularity, when really the stage shouldn't be, and that's why I don't really play the game competitively, despite every character in the game being competitively viable except maybe Samus. That's a big maybe, because even Samus has her tricks.

Melee is a little better stage-wise, but let's be honest - C-tier isn't really viable. I mean they can do well, but they just have such major flaws.

Brawl, however, at least for the moment (but let's not get started there) has 13 legal stages, more than twice Melee. 16 viable characters assuming a MK banned environment, which is more than 64 and Melee. Simply put, I like a game that's interesting. Stages are something very interesting to me. I don't like a stage like... FD simply because it sits there and doesn't do anything. A stage should have some kind of impact on the player, EVERY match should involve some sort of PvPvS interactions.


And there's my little ramble.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Melee is a better Game overall.. it's harder to get 'good' at, it's more balanced and yes.. more fun to watch due to combos which allow for faster matches and more agressive gameplay.

Brawl is far easier to pick up... it's gimmicky and very unbalanced... why do we play brawl? Because we are bored and put a lot of time into the game. Yep.. sounds about right. It's boring to watch as any real combo is more or less an infinite or gimmick.

Don't forget you can play Melee like Brawl... but why when you can legit combo?

Brawl CAN be played like Melee.. but due to the lack of combos playing agressive will in the end hurt you because the opponent can always counter attack.

In regards to Dirt's post about viability... who do we see in the top 10? The top tiers... with the exception of the occasional mid tier sneaking in, in brawl. Brawl is slowly becoming a tier based game.. where unlike melee low tiers and bottom tiers are completely not viable anymore. With MK gone... we have already witnessed the Falco secondaries here. Ultamitely.. Brawl HAS potential for diversity... so does Melee.. but people will play the better characters to win.

On a side note... with MK gone... I believe the Tier list may change a lot (more so the mid tiers now) to see if any reach high tier now that their worst MU is gone (like pit/rob/peach) and we can see if this change.. shows us who the viables are and if they will be played more. Though don't forget... each mid tier has a flaw with them.. it's why they are in mid tier... fox gets caught in every chain grab... wolf has one of the worst recoveries and only raised due to his MU with MK if I recall.. peach no KO power... DK problems with campers, rob no ko power or momentum cancel.. the problems just go on. Low tiers just have even more flaws, and bottom tiers just plain out suck.

In terms of stages... let's see.. first match will go to SV.. rare occasion for it not to lol... Second match.. unless your character gets a giant adv from a stage.. it will go to a neutral BF/FD. If it does go to a third match... same applies for the stage as it did on the second match.

Japan has FD, BF, Occasional SV and Delfino.
Europe SV... and umm... counter pick to SV!

I can see our stage list becoming shorter sooner or later.. I mean even though a diverse stage list is nice... stages just are not played on.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well, the majority of games do eventually revolve around the top tier. Not much can be done about that except either having 1. a very limited character roster or 2. some sort of godly balance skills.

I still stand by the diversity of stages being much better though. Though it doesn't look like that'll last long... URC and their desire to ban all of the stages. ALL OF THEM.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

With the way things are going... players also do not use stages that are currently availible. we still opt for neutrals. Japan and Europe got there ahead of us lol but americas are slowly catching up.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

[Reassurance post, will be there]

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Every time I learn a stage really well it ends up banned.

First Pirate Ship, though that was before I got going to tournaments. idk if it was even legal here.

Then Norfair.

Now apparently Cruise and PS2.

I'M RUNNING OUT OF CPs. ESPECIALLY FOR BS CHARACTERS LIKE ICE CLIMBERS!

A smaller stage list is just making them artificially stronger.

 

[pidgezero_one]

if cruise gets banned im gonna hang myself

 

[Peachy-Desu]

From what I remem... ethier Bstar or RC is getting banned and one of them is being left. I personally hope Bstar is the one getting banned.. RC is not too bad but yea... like who benefits on it? XD I guess it's a Diddy/Snake/I.C. CP. With MK banned Norfair MAY come back.. but tbh it'll be another Ps2 there but no one uses it.

I dont know why Pirate Ship is banned.. I know the whole Water Stall thing... but really? Just get the circle thing to go on them as they stall under the ship and voila free damage on them lol. Water Planking is hardly an issue because it's risky on any character with a decent spike can screw them over. As for the Wind... hardly an issue run away till the wind goes away. The cannon... really? You can't see where it's going to hit? lmao It's a legit stage that I would pick for the lolz all day long! XD

 

[Cyan_]

. That's far more than the... maybe 8 in Melee. More likely 4.

MELEE SINGLES (32 Players)
228 total players entered (11 free entries)

Bracket

Total Prizes: $5,425.00
Sabergaming: $2,000.00

1: Armada ($2,396.25) + ($1,000) Peach
2: Mang0 ($1,198.13) + ($500) Fox/other top tiers
3: Taj ($665.63) + ($250) Marth
4: hungrybox ($426) + ($100) Jiggs
5: M2K ($266.25) + ($50) Sheik/Marth
6: Shroomed ($159.75) + ($50) Doc
7: Dr Peepee ($133.13) + ($25) Falco
8: S2J ($79.88) + ($25) Falcon

8 different characters in the top 8 of one of the biggest Melee tournaments to date? 4 is not even close lol

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Pirate Ship is probably my favourite stage in the game, but people just wah too much.

Really, the only reasons we should be banning stages is like... randomness you can't react to or truly broken things like hard circles.

 

[pidgezero_one]

i am so sad i can't be kirby on pictochat in bracket

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The way I view it, if we have a terrible uncompetitive stage like YI:Brawl legal there's NO REASON Pictochat shouldn't be.

 

[infiniteV115]

With MK gone I think everyone down to Peach (on the current tier list) is viable, and ROB as well. That's 17/37 = almost half the cast, I don't see why people think the game is so unbalanced. I'm no Melee expert, but from the vids I've seen it's like the top 6 (Fox Falco Jiggs Sheik Marth Peach) are viable and Falcon, ICs and Doc being iffy. That's 6-9/26 = 23-35% of the cast viable.

As for liking one over the other, I don't think one can make a statement that isn't an opinion except maybe Melee is harder to master-->Melee is a better game to play competitively. I have no problem with Melee, it's just that Brawl is the game I played competitively first and I have no reason to stop.

I think a big reason so many Meleers trash on Brawl is simply because Melee came out first. It's something people do in things other than Brawl as well (original song>remix, original movie>remake, old movie>sequels, etc). I bet if Brawl (ie Brawl physics) came out first, and then people started playing Melee, you'd hear a lot of

-HOLY CRAP EVERYONE DROPS LIKE A ROCK WHAT IS THIS ****
-SO MUCH HITSTUN WTF NO MOMENTUM CANCELLING
-I CAN ONLY AIRDODGE ONCE WHAT IS THIS ****
-IT'S SO EASY TO EDGEGUARD WTF MAN

etc etc

So, other than what I said about people usually thinking old>new, I don't know why people hate on Brawl so much. It's a fine game and I've had tons of fun at every tournament I've been to.

 

[pidgezero_one]

people are salty about tripping

 

[infiniteV115]

Can't believe I forgot about that
Ok tripping is a legitimate complaint. It's ****ing stupid.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

V, Melee is far more competitive in the sense of a true fighting game. Legitamite combos are needed in fighters not only to show skill, but to form a basic fighting game lol. Melee had pure DI to keep them alive.. while mometum cancelling is nice, in then end it makes brawl WORSE because it gives an unfair adv to some characters keeping them alive for far too long.. even when they are a light weight.

Brawl is very gimmicky when it comes to the other smash games... Diddys naners enforcing tripping, SDI is oddly good in this game due to lack of hitstun and ruined almost every 'combo' in the game. Almost all infinites are based via a gimmick... I.C. CG, D3 cg infinites, Pika QAL, Diddys Naner lock... Unlike the other games where combos like the ken combo was 0-death at least you could still DI to help get out of it... or at least influence it enough to save yourself. In brawl these gimmicky infinites may be fun for the player using them... but since they are virtually impossible to get out of unless the person attempting them messes up.. you can just put your controller down as you die.

In terms of viability... It's really tough to say... because yes in our scene we have varied characters making the top 5-10... I don't like saying top 10 as we don't usually have that many people at ours lol. If you look at a national.. the usual top 10 will fall with the majority if not all of them being our beloved top tiers lol. With MK gone characters like peach still have cp characters like snake and falco to deal with... though they are not as bad as MK. Though to be fair... each character shares bad MUs.. so let's drop viability in terms of comparing Melee and Brawl..

 

[infiniteV115]

[COLLAPSE="Rebuttal for Peachy. I know our community hates walls of text, lol."]

V, Melee is far more competitive in the sense of a true fighting game. Legitamite combos are needed in fighters not only to show skill, but to form a basic fighting game lol.

Almost all infinites are based via a gimmick... I.C. CG, D3 cg infinites, Pika QAL, Diddys Naner lock... Unlike the other games where combos like the ken combo was 0-death at least you could still DI to help get out of it... or at least influence it enough to save yourself. In brawl these gimmicky infinites may be fun for the player using them... but since they are virtually impossible to get out of unless the person attempting them messes up.. you can just put your controller down as you die.

So...you want true combos because they are 'needed in fighters not only to show skill, but to form a basic fighting game' but you don't like it when they result in 0-deaths?
Anyway, ICs are a glass cannon. Without Nana they suck and you have to work hard to get the grab. Not to mention, they can get CPed HARD.
D3's regular infinites are only against a few characters, and his others are extremely hard to pull off.
QAL is SDIable. Though the jab lock isn't.
Diddy's naner lock is hard to set up against a good opponent that knows about it.
And besides, from what I've seen of MvC3 and SSF4:AE, pretty much everyone has some sort of inescapable combo that does a lot of damage. Those games are so combo-heavy that I find them boring to watch.

Melee had pure DI to keep them alive.. while mometum cancelling is nice, in then end it makes brawl WORSE because it gives an unfair adv to some characters keeping them alive for far too long.. even when they are a light weight.

How is the advantage unfair? Sure, some characters live longer than others despite being lighter/same weight. So what? It's unfair that Pikachu lives longer than MK, or that Sheik lives longer vertically than Zelda? It's unfair that certain characters are better than others in some aspects?
All I really see is that in Melee, weight and DI affected whether you live/die off the blastzone. In Brawl, it's weight, DI, and momentum cancelling (aerial frame data, falling speed, aerial speed and momentum-changing specials). It's just different.

Brawl is very gimmicky when it comes to the other smash games... Diddys naners enforcing tripping, SDI is oddly good in this game due to lack of hitstun and ruined almost every 'combo' in the game.

I don't know what you mean by gimmicky. I've heard this word tossed around all the time but I never knew what people meant by it. Can you clarify?[/COLLAPSE]

So, there's gonna be a smashfest at A&C on Tuesday from 3-8. Who's coming?

 

[Peachy-Desu]

V a combo is not always needed to form 0-deaths. However basic combo ability is needed like 2 - 3 hits at least lol. Every fighting game has at least a good 3-5 hit combo string. Not to the extent of MvC3 or UMvC3 where 100% combos exsist due to the mechanics of the game making them possible. If you have seen a 100% combo in ssf4.. or ae for the matter thats not possible due to damage scaling present in that game. They can however mix up into dealing high damage - stun which if the stun is from 1 hit then yes a combo after that will ko. If the stun is based on a combo of say 15-20 hits the scaling it still added upon stun... making a 100% combo impossible even with an ultra. Though if I recall no one has an inescapable combo in ssf4 though mix ups are present and seth is the only real character with a possible frame trap - inescapable. Though fighting games are not always combo heavy... sometimes it's just basic mix up - 3 hit combo string repeated lol Combos ranging 15-20 hits in a traditional fighter usually don't end up hitting that much. maybe 40%?

On the other hand combos are almost impossible to do in brawl. With SDI, not to mention lack of hitstun.. we can't even form a basic 2 hit true combo.. I can't remember every character who has true combos.. but I think.. MK, Lucario and Peach are the characters with 'true' combos. I could be wrong...

If you look at the previous Smash games.. there characters with projectiles and disjoints. It's pretty black and white. Gimmicks form when you get things such as infinites... such as wobbling in melee which is no longer allowed if i remember. In brawl... you have characters who enforce tripping.. set ups into jab locks.. the ever so used tripping lol. It strays away from the more traditional fighter style.. and adds a non traditional aspect. It's not always a bad thing... but a gimmick leading into an infinite is not always fun and happy time. Don't forget Air release abuse and ground release abuse lol.

If you want to go into defending brawl saying.. 'well infinites are conditional!!!' in melee this is the case as well... 0-deaths don't really happen anymore due to Sdi/Di though a lot of damage can be racked on characters.

In terms of momentum cancels perhaps unfair was a rather harsh word to use.. it can create a slight inbalance of the characters.. and some people don't like the idea of (example) snake gets to live to 230 due to his weight + momentum cancel but Zelda dies at 110 because of her lack of a momentum cancel. (she doesnt have one) while in the previous games DI helped.. but kos were more so based on weight.. rather than... awesome even though i shoulda just died i stopped all my momentum just now allowing me to live~ At times it can get slightly stupid.

Though I guess each person has a different taste to what comes down to a fighting game. I personally cannot stand watching Brawl lol even 'hyped' matches. I do enjoy watching Melee and SSF4:AE2012 though haha.

Yea I edited this when I thought I didn't explain something fully. So.. yea sorry if I changed something and you didn't read it. :x

 

[infiniteV115]

[COLLAPSE="2nd rebuttal for Peachy, lol"]

On the other hand combos are almost impossible to do in brawl. With SDI, not to mention lack of hitstun.. we can't even form a basic 2 hit true combo.. I can't remember every character who has true combos.. but I think.. MK, Lucario and Peach are the characters with 'true' combos. I could be wrong...

I still don't get why a lack of true combos or true strings should be considered a bad thing. Who cares if it exists in other games? That just means Brawl is different, it doesn't make Brawl worse.

In brawl... you have characters who enforce tripping.. set ups into jab locks.. the ever so used tripping lol. It strays away from the more traditional fighter style.. and adds a non traditional aspect. It's not always a bad thing... but a gimmick leading into an infinite is not always fun and happy time.

You have 1 character who spawns items that enforce tripping, and those items can be used against him. Then a bunch of other characters (iirc everyone but Marth) has 1 or 2 moves that has a 10% of causing the opponent to trip depending on their damage. Tripping when you want to dash sucks, I agree. The other examples don't really matter much.

In terms of momentum cancels perhaps unfair was a rather harsh word to use.. it can create a slight inbalance of the characters.. and some people don't like the idea of (example) snake gets to live to 230 due to his weight + momentum cancel but Zelda dies at 110 because of her lack of a momentum cancel. (she doesnt have one) while in the previous games DI helped.. but kos were more so based on weight.. rather than... awesome even though i shoulda just died i stopped all my momentum just now allowing me to live~ At times it can get slightly stupid.

Yeah, that's the idea. Different characters have different potential in different aspects. eg Snake lives long and Zelda doesn't. Snake also has to use his 2nd jump to get on the lower Battlefield platforms, or he has to full hop with bair/fair. Snake has to rely on remaining grounded in order to combat the opponent. Snake puts himself at a huge risk whenever he's offstage unless the opponent is using a character that can't really edgeguard. Every character has certain limitations, each limitation with its own extent. Characters with numerous severe limitations are bad, and the opposites are good. I don't see why this is a fault with the game, it's just how the game works. It's how every competitive fighter works. I guess you can say that you don't like such a drastic difference in when Snake and Zelda die, but that's not really an example of a 'flaw' inherent of the game; it's just something you don't like. Just like I ****ING HATE DEDEDE.
And there's no 'shoulda died'. It may be true that you woulda died if you hadn't momentum cancelled, but you did, so you live. Momentum cancelling is the best decision. It would be like if I lost to my opponent and said 'You shoulda lost, but you made all the right decisions'.

Though I guess each person has a different taste to what comes down to a fighting game. I personally cannot stand watching Brawl lol even 'hyped' matches. I do enjoy watching Melee and SSF4:AE2012 though haha.

Yes, I agree with this. Though some things are inherent flaws in the game that may cause someone to dislike watching (eg tripping, lack of activity in the form of scrooging/stalling, repetition), most of it is just opinionated. I don't like watching MvC3 matches because I think seeing the same combos over and over is boring. But I wouldn't call it a bad game.[/COLLAPSE]
I was hoping you'd follow my lead by putting everything you said in response to me in collapse tags so other people wouldn't have to bear the wall of pink. I'd advise that you edit that in now.

So nobody's coming on Tuesday?

 

[Peachy-Desu]

V... no im not going to do that.. if people don't want to read something they can simply skip the post... it's not THAT long lol Mainly why I didn't quote anything.

Momentum Cancels were born due to the lack of Hitstun and being able to cancel it immediately. In a sense.. if brawl had more hitstun.. momentum cancels wouldn't exsist. So really.. because of brawls mechanics opponents can live longer, but in actuality if there was actual hitstun they should have gotten ko'ed. That's where my comment came from about momentum cancels.

In terms of comboing.. brawl is at a hit and run game right now. There's no sense in going agressive because unlike other games.. where its risk and reward theres more risk than reward. If you intend to go agressive your opponent will more or less hit you back for your attack attempt. Which causes a keep away and eventually creates Falco camping. Due to the nature of this... characters who camp or have a projectile of some sort usually will run away the entire match.. wait for an approach bait and punish. This is the main reason matches take forever...(example) instead of 3 consecutive hits... we get 1.. they run away the process repeats.

and on a brighter note~ HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE~

 

[pidgezero_one]

im coming on tuesday

tryign to get red x to go too lol no promises

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just for the record, Brawl and Melee have identical hitstun.

In Brawl however, you can cancel it after certain frames with an air dodge or attack provided a wind effect hasn't changed your momentum. Which leads to really dumb things, like certain moves being punishable on hit, etc.

imo the biggest issue if anything with momentum cancelling is you should NOT be punished for landing a hit. EVER. Getting punished for messing up a combo? Fine. But if I Wizkick you, I shouldn't get chaingrabbed because I hit you.

Also basically nothing being safe on block is an issue.

My single biggest issues with Brawl/Smash in general are basically:

hitstun, especially moves not being safe on hit.
infinites and loops. A move, imo, shouldn't lead into itself over and over again. brain dead combos are NOT fun.
grab release animations. Seems to me to be just fake balancing. Why should I be punished for BREAKING OUT OF A GRAB?
random tripping, herp-a-derp
various balance issues.

All I can think of off the top of my head. I need more sleep.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I think grab release and air releasing were over sights. Considering in a doubles match or even a 1v1 with items on grabs are not really common enough to be forcing air releases or grab releasing chain grabs. I could be wrong... but don't characters each share a unique air release? Though I recall seeing a ton of different air releases. So it could have been a way to make the characters unqiue and it back fired. Though for Ness and Lucas... yes the grab release makes no sense lmao.

I think the only real moves that are punishable on hit would be in brawl.. with the odd Peach nairing in melee to escape hitstrings lol.

Infinites wouldn't be so bad if we the player caught in it had some control over it... look back on my previous posts for more detail lmao im not saying it a third time.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah I know what you said don't worry lol.

I'm just half-asleep atm.

And afaik there's not a whole lot of shared air releases. A lot of similar ones though.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I'm there on Tuesday!