Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[spinalwolf]

No one's arguing Kirby's better than Pikachu in 64. No one. Seriously if people are denying Pika was the best ssb64 character I'm checking out of this conversation.

And you know this how exactly? Are you at all familiar with the competitive community within 64? No one here is saying Pika isn't the best, I'm saying there's been some players who have argued Kirby might be the best. (I obviously think they are wrong)

 

[MercuryPenny]

SSB64 meta centralized pikachu. It didn't have any bad or even MUs. Looking at the tier list here, Pika is the uncontested best character.

In SSB4 we're still arguing who's the best between Cloud, Bayo, Diddy and sometimes Sheik. Although recently it's leaning toward Bayo. At least for bad MUs, Cloud has Sheik and Bayo has several even MUs and maybe a loss or 2. Diddy loses to Rosa. Sheik has a lot of arguable MUs but we can all agree she at best goes even with several characters.

it's still a hot point of contention if bayonetta has anything worse than even, and most people who try to argue bayo isn't the best tend to be the same types of people who think mario is top 5 or shiek is barely top 10.

the vast majority of people willing to face reality know bayonetta is the best. how is her stance in smash 4 any different from pika's in 64?

also 4 puff and zelda are waaaaay worse than 64 luigi and that mu chart is from 2011. might be worth poking around and finding out what modern 64 players think of pika's mu chart?

 

[spinalwolf]

I find it humorous that we went from talking about the smash 4 meta game (which is exactly what this thread was about) and instead went to talking about other ssb metagames like 64.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I find it humorous that we went from talking about the smash 4 meta game (which is exactly what this thread was about) and instead went to talking about other ssb metagames like 64.

Comparing to other smash games can help spice up the conversation.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Uhh, yeah. Bayonetta is a combo character, certain exchanges will be more rewarding for her. Why do I get the sense that any sort of nuance is completely disregarded when it comes to the subject of Bayonetta? My point was that you have to *read* the situation, not just auto pilot for the same punish or option every time. Sometimes there's a right time to get the hard punish, but other times its safer to get quick simple punish and back off. Moreover, you didn't refute anything I said, in fact your post pretty much embodies the self-defeating non-productive mindset players in this community have that I mentioned previously.

But okay. Sure, we'll play it your way. Yeah small victories go both ways, and sometimes Bayo can get a big chunk of reward due to the nature of her tools. Geez I guess playing a solid neutral and having competent SDI don't matter after all. Boy it must suck playing with a character like Marth who doesn't earn a great deal of reward from winning individual exchanges, I mean how could you possibly win against Bayonetta with a character like that? Right?

...right?

Yeah no **** the Bayonetta player can employ the same tactics to her advantage, its almost like the outcome of the game ultimately favors the more skilled, practiced player. No one wants to hear that, though. After all if there isn't one *singular* strategy that can be used to beat Bayonetta at all stages of the game, then why bother? Doing things like optimizing your character's gameplan, coming up with strategies, analyzing your mistakes and correcting them, nah screw all that noise. We aren't a competitive community or anything, right? What an absurd expectation to have of us.

Bayo gets more from any individual exchange than any other character in this game relative to the neutral and risk she employs, while also being able to ignore frame traps and force people to back off on hit because of various factors

Ergo, this argument still has not compelled me as to why anyone seriously competing is not playing her. Competent SDI has not saved top ****in players from this character, I'm afraid to admit.

I would argue Bayonetta actually creates much more shallow interactions because the best option in theory is to take a hit and USUALLY back off or be forced to guess on your next hit or literally nearly die or take 40 from it. Even the BEST PLAYER OF THIS GAME has said this about the character. Let's be real, there's no other competitive choice as strong.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Smash 64 is the most balanced. Not really up for debate. Low tiers can actually do something in 64. There's no bottom tier, either.

 

[Rizen]

Smash 64 is the most balanced. Not really up for debate. Low tiers can actually do something in 64. There's no bottom tier, either.

Excluding Isia, when has a low tier won anything? Isia's one of those outliers like Gluttony's Wario but if you take him out of the picture Low tiers get pounded into the ground in SSB64. Pika has a 75/25 MU vs Link because Link's recovery is worse than Mac's offstage. The gap between top and bottom tiers could be the new hot tourist attraction in Arizona.

Like I said: 64Pika loses to no one. Bayo has several at least even MUs and is still arguable to be the best. Not to mention ssb64 has 12 characters.

 

[spinalwolf]

Excluding Isia, when has a low tier won anything? Isia's one of those outliers like Gluttony's Wario but if you take him out of the picture Low tiers get pounded into the ground in SSB64. Pika has a 75/25 MU vs Link because Link's recovery is worse than Mac's offstage. The gap between top and bottom tiers could be the new hot tourist attraction in Arizona.

Like I said: 64Pika loses to no one. Bayo has several at least even MUs and is still arguable to be the best. Not to mention ssb64 has 12 characters.

Is that why People like Cafe (mains luigi), Gyaki (mains Link), Fray (mains Ness), Nangoku (also mains Ness) have gotten top 8 or atleast borderline top 8 at national tournies? I can actually continue and go on and on of countless example of low and mid tier mains placing high at tournaments excluding Isai. The gap between low and top actually isn't that big, its actually even less than smash 4. You clearly don't understand the 64 meta game. Pikachu isn't defining the meta. He's not overpowered at all. The rat just has alot of good tools.

 

[Iridium]

スマブラーを引退しました - りゅかぶろぐ https://t.co/Gmu19bw09y

— たいへいた/Taiheita (@Tihit212) March 26, 2018

Guys, I have heard Taiheita is retiring from Smash now. Even if he has not been to the US in a while, this is a huge blow to the metagame of Lucas. In Japan, Agehasama will have to carry the torch now, but Hakadama and Kimisan also are relevant.

 

[spinalwolf]

スマブラーを引退しました - りゅかぶろぐ https://t.co/Gmu19bw09y

— たいへいた/Taiheita (@Tihit212) March 26, 2018

Guys, I have heard Taiheita is retiring from Smash now. Even if he has not been to the US in a while, this is a huge blow to the metagame of Lucas.

Unfortunate. I really liked Taiheita and how amazing he was with Lucas. Wonder if he'll come back for smash 5.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

(except for dk vs kirby in the japanese release. That MU is just so brutal).

Why is that one so bad?

 

[Iridium]

Unfortunate. I really liked Taiheita and how amazing he was with Lucas. Wonder if he'll come back for smash 5.

Hopefully. At least he was not the only top Lucas in Japan.

 

[Rizen]

You clearly don't understand the 64 meta game. .

I am the one who doesn't understand the ssb64 meta?

Pikachu wasn't even that dominant in the 64 meta. In fact some actually argue Kirby is the best character in the game..

I should have backed out of this conversation an hour ago. Believe what you want against all evidence I've provided. This is a complete waste of time.

 

[spinalwolf]

"I should have backed out of this conversation an hour ago. Believe what you want against all evidence I've provided. This is a complete waste of time."

Yeah cause I said I agreed with those people right? I talked about how Kirby is just soo much better than Pika right? Oh wait. That never actually happened. All I said was that there were certain people in the community who argued that Kirby was the best in the game. You act as if the gap between Pika and Kirby is significant. Its not. They are both in the same tier and have a very similar MU spread.

 

[The-Technique]

Bayo gets more from any individual exchange than any other character in this game relative to the neutral and risk she employs, while also being able to ignore frame traps and force people to back off on hit because of various factors

Ergo, this argument still has not compelled me as to why anyone seriously competing is not playing her. Competent SDI has not saved top ****in players from this character, I'm afraid to admit.

I would argue Bayonetta actually creates much more shallow interactions because the best option in theory is to take a hit and USUALLY back off or be forced to guess on your next hit or literally nearly die or take 40 from it. Even the BEST PLAYER OF THIS GAME has said this about the character. Let's be real, there's no other competitive choice as strong.

There's a lot of characters in this game with touch of death conversions, but given the nature of Bayo's character her tools make these conversions more readily accessible. At the same time however, a lot of her combos are less reliable with the correct SDI used to mitigate them. Actually I already went over this in an earlier post.

Bayonetta does NOT ignore frame traps, seriously did you not watch any of the top 8 sets of yesterdays tournament? How many Bayonettas fell on top of Marth's u-tilt and ate Dancing Blades? How many airdodges did Nairo read and convert into ladder KOs? How many Bat Withins have triggered only to get punished again upon landing on the ground? Indeed there's been plenty of life-saving Bats Within but it's an ability that's had both good and bad application historically. If we're going to talk about Bayonetta can we at least not spread misinformation?

Also I love how you're assuming top players universally apply optimal SDI. They don't, in fact it varies heavily from player to player. ZeRo needed 5 different players to coach him between sets on how to SDI Leo's u-air combos with Meta Knight. Top players *still* don't know how to DI ZSS's Boost Kick, a character who's been around for four mother effing years. Wanna know why Leo died so early to Nairo's rage ZSS ladder combo, game 1 of Grand Finals while playing Marth? He DI'd incorrectly.

And get this, Nairo himself stated that Leo's Bayonetta pick was a poor choice, pointing out that he performed better against him with Marth.

 

[spinalwolf]

Why is that one so bad?

There's other factors but the biggest one is lack of sdi. Because there was less of it in the japanese version, once kirby combo'd you there wasn't really anything you could do and that was your stock. It doesn't help that Kirby destroys DK in the neutral and easily edge guards him.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

スマブラーを引退しました - りゅかぶろぐ https://t.co/Gmu19bw09y

— たいへいた/Taiheita (@Tihit212) March 26, 2018

Guys, I have heard Taiheita is retiring from Smash now. Even if he has not been to the US in a while, this is a huge blow to the metagame of Lucas. In Japan, Agehasama will have to carry the torch now, but Hakadama and Kimisan also are relevant.

Taiheita retires from the Smash 4.. I am heartbroken. Taiheita is a special player, he is one of the few players that got me involved in to the Smash community. His Lucas is unlike any other Lucas mains out there; he played very promising and perfectly, that he is the reason why Lucas rise up to this day. His domiance was unlike any other, for he defeat many top players during his past, and him vs Edge battle is god-like. However, later on, his performance dip and dip; his results dropped and dropped; his attendence grew more scarce. When I know that Ranai when inactive, I fear for Taiheita. As Taiheita went inactive, the Lucas meta went on a halt. I grew more and more anxious for seeing Taiheita whenever there is a Sumabato and Umebura tournies, however it didn't happen. Fortunately, when I heard that Taiheita is going to make a return at Sumabato, I smiled. I binged that tourney, waiting to see that Taiheita in action. In the end, although Taiheita placed 13th at that tournament, I am glad he makes a return once again to repair the stagnation of Lucas' results. Then, when I heard the news, I knew it was over. Taiheita, you are a great player and I wish you stay a bit more. Thank you, we as a community, will never forget your performance.

 

[The_Bookworm]

スマブラーを引退しました - りゅかぶろぐ https://t.co/Gmu19bw09y

— たいへいた/Taiheita (@Tihit212) March 26, 2018

Guys, I have heard Taiheita is retiring from Smash now. Even if he has not been to the US in a while, this is a huge blow to the metagame of Lucas. In Japan, Agehasama will have to carry the torch now, but Hakadama and Kimisan also are relevant.

R.I.P. Lucas's metagame. I guess it is indeed Yoshi's story for the character. Him simply not being active was a blow to Lucas's metagame (other than his inconsistant results during the second-half of 2017), but this is the seal of fate.
Taiheita was a cool player to behold. Hopefully he will be back in Smash Switch with a hopefully buffed Lucas.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's a lot of characters in this game with touch of death conversions, but given the nature of Bayo's character her tools make these conversions more readily accessible. At the same time however, a lot of her combos are less reliable with the correct SDI used to mitigate them. Actually I already went over this in an earlier post.

Bayonetta does NOT ignore frame traps, seriously did you not watch any of the top 8 sets of yesterdays tournament? How many Bayonettas fell on top of Marth's u-tilt and ate Dancing Blades? How many airdodges did Nairo read and convert into ladder KOs? How many Bat Withins have triggered only to get punished again upon landing on the ground? Indeed there's been plenty of life-saving Bats Within but it's an ability that's had both good and bad application historically. If we're going to talk about Bayonetta can we at least not spread misinformation?

Also I love how you're assuming top players universally apply optimal SDI. They don't, in fact it varies heavily from player to player. ZeRo needed 5 different players to coach him between sets on how to SDI Leo's u-air combos with Meta Knight. Top players *still* don't know how to DI ZSS's Boost Kick, a character who's been around for four mother effing years. Wanna know why Leo died so early to Nairo's rage ZSS ladder combo, game 1 of Grand Finals while playing Marth? He DI'd incorrectly.

And get this, Nairo himself stated that Leo's Bayonetta pick was a poor choice, pointing out that he performed better against him with Marth.

Yea Leo's pick was suboptimal because he had already established a better character in the set and he's been like, probably playing Marth for, well, a little longer?

When was the last time we saw his Bayo in tournament?

Optimal SDI would be SDIing out of Witch Twist and falling out of the multi-hit entirely, I guess? Have you also considered that SDI is really hard in this game because it comes with the highest baked in input lag of this entire franchise coupled with SDI as a whole being nerfed in effectiveness and requiring fast quarter circle motions that are a LOT easier to do only if you hold the controller in a specific way? I literally can not optimally SDI against this character based on how I grip my controller so if I was still serious about this game I'd still be SOL =/. Like if it was so easy to do on reaction in sets I am 150% positive top players would be doin that, lol. We're this far into the game, if it was intuitive it'd be present by now. Keep track of all of her jumps, what way she's facing, what angle is what, and by the time you've processed that it's like, ow.

On the subject of Bat Within, yeah I guess I can be specific even though I was CERTAIN it was common knowledge: it applicably saves her from guessing in MANY scenarios where THE ENTIRE CAST does not have that luxury.

Like, it's demonstrably visible. The character is miles better than any other character in the game, and given that the new game is right around the corner you're seeing a lot of ppl just pull her out because whatever, new one droppin soon. It's the optimal choice assuming you're playing her MUs correctly.

Oh and yeah a lot of chars have ToDs they just don't have it attached to moves that are ridiculously hard to whiff punish, a Counter that dodges grabs during its startup and also leads to incredibly high damage, hitboxes that rival Marth, and infinite length aerials that shoot hitscan bullets.

Also not sure where the passive aggressive tone became warranted but I'll accept it. I admire the passion for the game but I am still not seeing a compelling reason for people to not just play this character. Just more stuff for my thesis about how DLC really hurt the game long-term, more specifically the later DLC.

 

[Rizen]

Bayonetta does NOT ignore frame traps, seriously did you not watch any of the top 8 sets of yesterdays tournament? How many Bayonettas fell on top of Marth's u-tilt and ate Dancing Blades? How many airdodges did Nairo read and convert into ladder KOs? How many Bat Withins have triggered only to get punished again upon landing on the ground? Indeed there's been plenty of life-saving Bats Within but it's an ability that's had both good and bad application historically. If we're going to talk about Bayonetta can we at least not spread misinformation?

I agree the Bayo hate's out of hand and she's not broken, however probably the best character at this point.

With that said, bat within is fantastic. Link's Dthrow>dash>jump>Uair combo works on other characters her weight because Uair outlasts or frame traps airdodges. Bat within is frame 1 and moves out of it. Same thing goes for Link's Fair 2 hit frame trap and Usmash 3 hit frame trap. I would trade Link's spot and air dodges for bat within in a heartbeat.

 

[Nu~]

Optimal SDI would be SDIing out of Witch Twist and falling out of the multi-hit entirely, I guess? Have you also considered that SDI is really hard in this game because it comes with the highest baked in input lag of this entire franchise coupled with SDI as a whole being nerfed in effectiveness and requiring fast quarter circle motions that are a LOT easier to do only if you hold the controller in a specific way? I literally can not optimally SDI against this character based on how I grip my controller so if I was still serious about this game I'd still be SOL =/. Like if it was so easy to do on reaction in sets I am 150% positive top players would be doin that, lol. We're this far into the game, if it was intuitive it'd be present by now. Keep track of all of her jumps, what way she's facing, what angle is what, and by the time you've processed that it's like, ow.

I highly agree with the entire post but this bolded portion of this part I feel needs to be stressed more.

Like, I also cannot physically SDI Bayo **** based on my controller grip. My thumb can only move back and forth so fast without freezing up . Port legit dropped the game because her joints can’t deal with Bayo-caliber SDI.

Sure I can try to claw grip it...but immediately switching between claw grip and my normal grip every time I get hit by an ABK or Witch Twist is not practical on reaction.

 

[Iridium]

I highly agree with the entire post but this bolded portion of this part I feel needs to be stressed more.

Like, I also cannot physically SDI Bayo **** based on my controller grip. My thumb can only move back and forth so fast without freezing up . Port legit dropped the game because her joints can’t deal with Bayo-caliber SDI.

Sure I can try to claw grip it...but immediately switching between claw grip and my normal grip every time I get hit by an ABK or Witch Twist is not practical on reaction.

So you think it should be easier to SDI out of her combos to make life bearable? Just curious, because I doubt 1.1.7 was enough for her.

 

[Nu~]

So you think it should be easier to SDI out of her combos to make life bearable? Just curious, because I doubt 1.1.7 was enough for her.

I’m honestly not sure how I would balance the character atm. I think her entire design is inherently flawed.

 

[The-Technique]

Yea Leo's pick was suboptimal because he had already established a better character in the set and he's been like, probably playing Marth for, well, a little longer?

When was the last time we saw his Bayo in tournament?

Optimal SDI would be SDIing out of Witch Twist and falling out of the multi-hit entirely, I guess? Have you also considered that SDI is really hard in this game because it comes with the highest baked in input lag of this entire franchise coupled with SDI as a whole being nerfed in effectiveness and requiring fast quarter circle motions that are a LOT easier to do only if you hold the controller in a specific way? I literally can not optimally SDI against this character based on how I grip my controller so if I was still serious about this game I'd still be SOL =/. Like if it was so easy to do on reaction in sets I am 150% positive top players would be doin that, lol. We're this far into the game, if it was intuitive it'd be present by now. Keep track of all of her jumps, what way she's facing, what angle is what, and by the time you've processed that it's like, ow.

On the subject of Bat Within, yeah I guess I can be specific even though I was CERTAIN it was common knowledge: it applicably saves her from guessing in MANY scenarios where THE ENTIRE CAST does not have that luxury.

Like, it's demonstrably visible. The character is miles better than any other character in the game, and given that the new game is right around the corner you're seeing a lot of ppl just pull her out because whatever, new one droppin soon. It's the optimal choice assuming you're playing her MUs correctly.

Oh and yeah a lot of chars have ToDs they just don't have it attached to moves that are ridiculously hard to whiff punish, a Counter that dodges grabs during its startup and also leads to incredibly high damage, hitboxes that rival Marth, and infinite length aerials that shoot hitscan bullets.

Also not sure where the passive aggressive tone became warranted but I'll accept it. I admire the passion for the game but I am still not seeing a compelling reason for people to not just play this character. Just more stuff for my thesis about how DLC really hurt the game long-term, more specifically the later DLC.

I would say given the unwarranted doom and gloom surrounding a character who's won exactly 1 national out of the 8 that have taken place from the beginning of this year until now, I don't think my tone is wholly unreasonable.

Oh brother. You know what? I'm sorry, I really should have been more considerate. After all, wiggling your control stick in a direction is some *really* hard execution as far inputs go in fighting games. Maybe this is why the FGC still don't take Smash seriously. Honestly if you aren't employing all the tools at your disposal, then you have no right to complain when you keep taking those Ls. (by the way, where the heck are you guys learning SDI that you have to grip your controller a different way? my SDI works just fine gripping normally)

Like no one can deny that Bayonetta is the best character, but miles better? At that point you're just making excuses.

 

[Iridium]

I’m honestly not sure how I would balance the character atm. I think her entire design is inherently flawed.

For one, perhaps the triple jump glitch can be removed, based on how unintended it was.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Thanks for clarifying. I agree that patches really helped make smash 4 the balanced game that it is. Even Bayo (who I complain about admittedly) despite being the best character and having options in her kit I absolutely despise, she is no where near as godly as Brawl MK was and even pre patch Diddy was more dominant *shivers thinking about pre patch Diddy*. Prepatch Bayo though. Now don't even get me started.

Hopefully smash switch doesn't have a character that is pre patch Diddy levels of broken. After the outcry that people made about Diddy in the early days of Smash 4, Sakurai will probably not try to make the same mistake again.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Comparing to other smash games can help spice up the conversation.

I agree, its talking about another smash game, but its still smash talk nonetheless.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't like the whole SDI mechanic to begin with I don't feel like that constant mashing in a direction is good for the long term health of your control sticks..

Having said that SDI'ing Bayo's moves does not require that much intensity at all if you do it right. I can SDI with my thumb alone and get out of Witch twist fairly reliably it doesn't take insane mashing to do. If your fingers unable to SDI Witch Twist I honestly don't know how you even do basic joy stick inputs in quick succession. If you want difficult SDI try getting out of M2's Up smash.

I think people are taking "just SDI" a little to literally like it's guaranteed method to never lose to Bayo. It helps yes but no it's not always going to save you if you aren't fast enough to start in time. Neither will knowing how to DI ZSS ladder boost kick combo will save you from it all the time or knowing not to air dodge once your down thrown by Falcon. You can't expect one method of counter play to totally shut down a top tier characters best kill combo, she's a top tier character for a reason.

 

[MercuryPenny]

For one, perhaps the triple jump glitch can be removed, based on how unintended it was.

triple jump is intentional, actually

 

[ぱみゅ]

Guys.

We have rules in the first page and they specifically said it is a Yellow Topic to talk about balance from other games. It is fine to know and talk a bit about it but let's not heat it up too much, okay?

Also, it is recommended to SDI with your entire arm from the elbow, not just the thumb.

Also Also, SDI tricks are far too underdeveloped, I saw Leo take way too many stocks with basic Bayo WTw>ABK>ABK>WTw combos.

 

[Rizen]

People know how to "quarter stick" SDI right? Say you want to SDI left: Left=L on the left stick, one notch up=UL and one notch down from left =DL. Roll your thumb up and down over those 3 notches UL>L>DL>L>UL>L>DL>L etc. The UL and DL cancel each other's vertical movement and you get consistent, fast left SDI.
I literally have a drawer of game cube controllers with the plastic skin from the control stick worn off.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You can always use these icons from this site:

 

[MistressRemilia]

While i haven't been that active over a few weeks, i've been lurking around concerning the thoughts of our community towards the hottest topics, so i will address a couple of them in this post:

RE: Bayonetta

We've witnessed a few top players leaning towards Bayonetta more or less, whether it's playing her more frequently or making her into a secondary. This should be expected of the best character of the game, who i also believe still isn't fought well enough by a majority of smashers. I believe people might not be playing the player enough when fighting Bayonetta, and thus are kind of afraid to engage into a more reactionary & passive playstyle based around spacing yourself in order to make the Bayonetta player commit to unsafe moves. The degree of efficiency largely depending on whether or not your character has sufficiently good reach in their primary punish tools: In a way, i believe that's why characters with great & consequential dash punishes can easily hold their own against Bayonettas, as long as they know the opponent they're fighting and the playstyle/likelihood of commitment given certain situations that they're likely to adopt. I'd say leaning the focus on these baiting strategies is important because, at the current state of the metagame, it seems that not a whole lot of players have reached a level of confidence to punish Bayonetta's mispaced commitments confidently, and still seem to fear what may come after, whether it's Witch Twist or Witch Time. Needless to say, there's a lot of work left to be done, but i'm unfortunately not too optimistic about the likelihood of enough players applying these strategies and advices that even Bayonetta players have been giving out ( Shoutouts to @Myollnir ). Oddly enough, while i've mentioned that people should know the player they're fighting more when playing Bayonetta in order to avoid needless fears of them adopting a more passive style in answer to your own style to push you into doing what they want, I also believe that people have not done enough work around how to bait Bayonetta, given that some of her tools are unorthodox in their reach, like ABK.

RE: Lucas

Kind of an enigma in the metagame if we're being honest, i'm glad to see that Hakadama has been able to pull one of the best results Lucas has seen in a long time. Moreover, wins over both Komorikiri's Sonic and Suinoko's Diddy Kong are both fairly impressive, given that Lucas' SH centred mid range zoning seems prone to fairly easy punishes from Diddy's banana game out of shield, or Sonic's spindash and to an extent fast movement. Also, funnily enough, i really didn't think Lucas' Nair was so easy to SDI, but it seems that it kind of is, as we've witnessed in the tournament: A real shame, but the opponent falling out of Nair can lead into some serious mixups. I'd be glad to hear any of the Lucas mains' thoughts on his place in the current metagame.

I had something written about low tiers in Smash 4 vs low tiers in other smash games, and i'm too lazy to rewrite it since Smashboards deleted it as tried to post. Tl;Dr: Whether its mobility & disjoints kind of defining Smash64's metagame, the worst character is obviously getting bootyblasted because he's a slow a*s floaty. The various inabilities to approach in Melee vary from zoning, shield poking that can't be answered, no consequential tools to push someone away from crouch cancelling everything, along with them sometimes just ruining you with almost unavoidable deadly combos, except this time around, you don't even have the lethality that 64 Luigi could have. Brawl is just a balancing mess and every Top Tier is bulls*it to some extent, where most mid/low tiers can barely fight at least one of them, and even more gatekeepers can be found lower on the list. Smash 4's list of dreaful matchups & overwhelming character is much smaller & there's even less players willing to go to an extent where the matchup becomes hell, even if they're losing. So with a bit of patience & wisdom, a Smash 4 Bottom Tier should see the highest peak among these characters throughout the series ( See: Zaki's 9th at the latest JP Tour, Rizeasu's streak of wins with Zelda, Gungnir's 17th at Umebura Japan Major )

 

[spinalwolf]

While i haven't been that active over a few weeks, i've been lurking around concerning the thoughts of our community towards the hottest topics, so i will address a couple of them in this post:

RE: Bayonetta

We've witnessed a few top players leaning towards Bayonetta more or less, whether it's playing her more frequently or making her into a secondary. This should be expected of the best character of the game, who i also believe still isn't fought well enough by a majority of smashers. I believe people might not be playing the player enough when fighting Bayonetta, and thus are kind of afraid to engage into a more reactionary & passive playstyle based around spacing yourself in order to make the Bayonetta player commit to unsafe moves. The degree of efficiency largely depending on whether or not your character has sufficiently good reach in their primary punish tools: In a way, i believe that's why characters with great & consequential dash punishes can easily hold their own against Bayonettas, as long as they know the opponent they're fighting and the playstyle/likelihood of commitment given certain situations that they're likely to adopt. I'd say leaning the focus on these baiting strategies is important because, at the current state of the metagame, it seems that not a whole lot of players have reached a level of confidence to punish Bayonetta's mispaced commitments confidently, and still seem to fear what may come after, whether it's Witch Twist or Witch Time. Needless to say, there's a lot of work left to be done, but i'm unfortunately not too optimistic about the likelihood of enough players applying these strategies and advices that even Bayonetta players have been giving out ( Shoutouts to @Myollnir ). Oddly enough, while i've mentioned that people should know the player they're fighting more when playing Bayonetta in order to avoid needless fears of them adopting a more passive style in answer to your own style to push you into doing what they want, I also believe that people have not done enough work around how to bait Bayonetta, given that some of her tools are unorthodox in their reach, like ABK.

RE: Lucas

Kind of an enigma in the metagame if we're being honest, i'm glad to see that Hakadama has been able to pull one of the best results Lucas has seen in a long time. Moreover, wins over both Komorikiri's Sonic and Suinoko's Diddy Kong are both fairly impressive, given that Lucas' SH centred mid range zoning seems prone to fairly easy punishes from Diddy's banana game out of shield, or Sonic's spindash and to an extent fast movement. Also, funnily enough, i really didn't think Lucas' Nair was so easy to SDI, but it seems that it kind of is, as we've witnessed in the tournament: A real shame, but the opponent falling out of Nair can lead into some seriou I'd be glad to hear any of the Lucas mains' thoughts on his place in the current metagame.

I had something written about low tiers in Smash 4 vs low tiers in other smash games, and i'm too lazy to rewrite it since Smashboards deleted it as tried to post. Tl;Dr: Whether its mobility & disjoints kind of defining Smash64's metagame, the worst character is obviously getting bootyblasted because he's a slow a*s floaty. The various inabilities to approach in Melee vary from zoning, shield poking that can't be answered, no consequential tools to push someone away from crouch cancelling everything, along with them sometimes just ruining you with almost unavoidable deadly combos, except this time around, you don't even have the lethality that 64 Luigi could have. Brawl is just a balancing mess and every Top Tier is bulls*it to some extent, where most mid/low tiers can barely fight at least one of them, and even more gatekeepers can be found lower on the list. Smash 4's list of dreaful matchups & overwhelming character is much smaller & there's even less players willing to go to an extent where the matchup becomes hell, even if they're losing. So with a bit of patience & wisdom, a Smash 4 Bottom Tier should see the highest peak among these characters throughout the series ( See: Zaki's 9th at the latest JP Tour, Rizeasu's streak of wins with Zelda, Gungnir's 17th at Umebura Japan Major )

the gap between bottom/low tiers and top/high tiers in both Melee and Brawl is just way too big. Low and Bottom tiers have no hope of seeing the upper brackets. Smash 4 and 64 on the other hand are an entirely different story. Many of the low tiers in both games have managed to not only compete with the top and high tiers to some degree, but have seen greater results with their lower tiered characters.

I would still argue that 64 has less of a gap with its low tiers than smash 4 does however. I'll use the respective worst characters in both respective games to prove my point. Luigi has managed to get 9th in Kanto 2015 and 2016 (thanks to Cafe) as well as get 17th at kanto17 (these are national tournaments held in Japan by the way). What results do we see from jigs in smash 4? Well the best results I could find was 17th at smash con (which didn't even have all the best top players attend) however this was back when the smash 4 meta was still underdeveloped and people were still getting the hang of match ups and understanding characters.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I would say given the unwarranted doom and gloom surrounding a character who's won exactly 1 national out of the 8 that have taken place from the beginning of this year until now, I don't think my tone is wholly unreasonable.

Oh brother. You know what? I'm sorry, I really should have been more considerate. After all, wiggling your control stick in a direction is some *really* hard execution as far inputs go in fighting games. Maybe this is why the FGC still don't take Smash seriously. Honestly if you aren't employing all the tools at your disposal, then you have no right to complain when you keep taking those Ls. (by the way, where the heck are you guys learning SDI that you have to grip your controller a different way? my SDI works just fine gripping normally)

Like no one can deny that Bayonetta is the best character, but miles better? At that point you're just making excuses.

You seem a little miffed about me explaining what is like, common knowledge lol. Like, it's aight man. Bullet points

- Who said anything about doom and gloom? I'm just stating the facts: Bayonetta is like, de facto the only character that should be considered atm if you want to win and have the absolute best chance of it.
- SDI is incredibly uncomfortable for my hands in particular, and I've never been able to do it properly.
- Also yes miles better, relatively speaking she is playing a wholly different game and I think that is worth stating. Like Cloud is pretty much the next in line (or Sheik or Diddy, but this is hotly debated) and like, Cloud is still a myriad of "interesting" decisions but, yeah.

Also you could probably change the tude. You're getting upset and now you're lashing out at me with like, sarcasm? Can you not have a discussion about this like an adult? You seem to have doubts about my execution because I arbitrarily do not like the motions SDI requires because they hurt my body, so do go on. Being mocked for having an inability to intuitively SDI Bayo properly without hurting my thumb based on controller grip is a nice firm reminder to not post on these forums again, I suppose.

(Also if 2 stick SDI worked it'd be a lot easier but I have no idea why they removed that. Weird decision on their part I guess)

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

the gap between bottom/low tiers and top/high tiers in both Melee and Brawl is just way too big. Low and Bottom tiers have no hope of seeing the upper brackets. Smash 4 and 64 on the other hand are an entirely different story. Many of the low tiers in both games have managed to not only compete with the top and high tiers to some degree, but have seen greater results with their lower tiered characters.

I would still argue that 64 has less of a gap with its low tiers than smash 4 does however. I'll use the respective worst characters in both respective games to prove my point. Luigi has managed to get 9th in Kanto 2015 and 2016 (thanks to Cafe) as well as get 17th at kanto17 (these are national tournaments held in Japan by the way). What results do we see from jigs in smash 4? Well the best results I could find was 17th at smash con (which didn't even have all the best top players attend) however this was back when the smash 4 meta was still underdeveloped and people were still getting the hang of match ups and understanding characters.

Yeah, in Smash 4 low tiers have attracted waves of attention at times such as Jade defeating Trela's Ryu with her Bowser Jr at CEO or whiteout's Dedede defeating Wadi's Mewtwo. I feel like the biggest selling point of low tiers is matchup unfamiliarity, due to how uncommon they are.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

You seem a little miffed about me explaining what is like, common knowledge lol. Like, it's aight man. Bullet points

- Who said anything about doom and gloom? I'm just stating the facts: Bayonetta is like, de facto the only character that should be considered atm if you want to win and have the absolute best chance of it.
- SDI is incredibly uncomfortable for my hands in particular, and I've never been able to do it properly.
- Also yes miles better, relatively speaking she is playing a wholly different game and I think that is worth stating. Like Cloud is pretty much the next in line (or Sheik or Diddy, but this is hotly debated) and like, Cloud is still a myriad of "interesting" decisions but, yeah.

Also you could probably change the tude. You're getting upset and now you're lashing out at me with like, sarcasm? Can you not have a discussion about this like an adult? You seem to have doubts about my execution because I arbitrarily do not like the motions SDI requires because they hurt my body, so do go on. Being mocked for having an inability to intuitively SDI Bayo properly without hurting my thumb based on controller grip is a nice firm reminder to not post on these forums again, I suppose.

(Also if 2 stick SDI worked it'd be a lot easier but I have no idea why they removed that. Weird decision on their part I guess)

SDI can not only damage your analog stick on your controller, but can also cause strain on your hand as well. That's kinda what sucks about having to use it often.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

While i haven't been that active over a few weeks, i've been lurking around concerning the thoughts of our community towards the hottest topics, so i will address a couple of them in this post:

RE: Bayonetta

We've witnessed a few top players leaning towards Bayonetta more or less, whether it's playing her more frequently or making her into a secondary. This should be expected of the best character of the game, who i also believe still isn't fought well enough by a majority of smashers. I believe people might not be playing the player enough when fighting Bayonetta, and thus are kind of afraid to engage into a more reactionary & passive playstyle based around spacing yourself in order to make the Bayonetta player commit to unsafe moves. The degree of efficiency largely depending on whether or not your character has sufficiently good reach in their primary punish tools: In a way, i believe that's why characters with great & consequential dash punishes can easily hold their own against Bayonettas, as long as they know the opponent they're fighting and the playstyle/likelihood of commitment given certain situations that they're likely to adopt. I'd say leaning the focus on these baiting strategies is important because, at the current state of the metagame, it seems that not a whole lot of players have reached a level of confidence to punish Bayonetta's mispaced commitments confidently, and still seem to fear what may come after, whether it's Witch Twist or Witch Time. Needless to say, there's a lot of work left to be done, but i'm unfortunately not too optimistic about the likelihood of enough players applying these strategies and advices that even Bayonetta players have been giving out ( Shoutouts to @Myollnir ). Oddly enough, while i've mentioned that people should know the player they're fighting more when playing Bayonetta in order to avoid needless fears of them adopting a more passive style in answer to your own style to push you into doing what they want, I also believe that people have not done enough work around how to bait Bayonetta, given that some of her tools are unorthodox in their reach, like ABK.

RE: Lucas

Kind of an enigma in the metagame if we're being honest, i'm glad to see that Hakadama has been able to pull one of the best results Lucas has seen in a long time. Moreover, wins over both Komorikiri's Sonic and Suinoko's Diddy Kong are both fairly impressive, given that Lucas' SH centred mid range zoning seems prone to fairly easy punishes from Diddy's banana game out of shield, or Sonic's spindash and to an extent fast movement. Also, funnily enough, i really didn't think Lucas' Nair was so easy to SDI, but it seems that it kind of is, as we've witnessed in the tournament: A real shame, but the opponent falling out of Nair can lead into some seriou I'd be glad to hear any of the Lucas mains' thoughts on his place in the current metagame.

I had something written about low tiers in Smash 4 vs low tiers in other smash games, and i'm too lazy to rewrite it since Smashboards deleted it as tried to post. Tl;Dr: Whether its mobility & disjoints kind of defining Smash64's metagame, the worst character is obviously getting bootyblasted because he's a slow a*s floaty. The various inabilities to approach in Melee vary from zoning, shield poking that can't be answered, no consequential tools to push someone away from crouch cancelling everything, along with them sometimes just ruining you with almost unavoidable deadly combos, except this time around, you don't even have the lethality that 64 Luigi could have. Brawl is just a balancing mess and every Top Tier is bulls*it to some extent, where most mid/low tiers can barely fight at least one of them, and even more gatekeepers can be found lower on the list. Smash 4's list of dreaful matchups & overwhelming character is much smaller & there's even less players willing to go to an extent where the matchup becomes hell, even if they're losing. So with a bit of patience & wisdom, a Smash 4 Bottom Tier should see the highest peak among these characters throughout the series ( See: Zaki's 9th at the latest JP Tour, Rizeasu's streak of wins with Zelda, Gungnir's 17th at Umebura Japan Major )

Lucas's Nair is incredibly easy to to SDI. If he's moving forwards you SDI into him and if he's moving backwards or staying stationary you SDI away. Proper SDI negates the threat of that move hard. Of course Lucas has air speed so he can change directions if he needs to but it's not super effective if you SDI quick enough.

You are also right about Diddy and Sonic those factors are reasons why those MUs aren't so great for Lucas.

People also don't SDI Sheik's up air like they should. Marth's dancing blade, etc. Some of the SDI-able moves in this game don't require much effort to SDI at all.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Lucas's Nair is incredibly easy to to SDI. If he's moving forwards you SDI into him and if he's moving backwards or staying stationary you SDI away. Proper SDI negates the threat of that move hard. Of course Lucas has air speed so he can change directions if he needs to but it's not super effective if you SDI quick enough.

You are also right about Diddy and Sonic those factors are reasons why those MUs aren't so great for Lucas.

People also don't SDI Sheik's up air like they should. Marth's dancing blade, etc. Some of the SDI-able moves in this game don't require much effort to SDI at all.

I think it's mostly the hitfreeze and hitstop that makes them easier. The lag modifiers help out a lot with those.

 

[Nah]

Something to keep in mind about SDI is that this game makes it needlessly difficult to even practice doing it, given this series' near-useless training mode (which is a huge problem for this game). Something like, say, perfect pivoting, you can do by yourself, but practicing SDI requires you be hit by a move in order to even begin to try it. It's not exactly feasible for a lot of people to get someone to help them learn to SDI, since we don't have the option to do it by ourselves. I wish that these arbitrary physical barriers would be lowered though, hitting buttons and waggling sticks is not really a skill.