4BR Tier List v2.0 Followup

(Para español, haz click aquí)

Last month, the 4BR released their second official tier list for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U:

Spoiler: Image Version

(Image by @shrooby)

After in-house discussion from 4BR members and some common outside opinions opening up, we'd like to address some frequently asked questions and talk a bit more about results.

Frequently Asked Questions​

Why is Top Tier much larger than its previous iteration, which contained 3 characters?

v1.0 featured a meta that had a more restricted set of characters winning tournaments, with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus being the two big winners. However, as the last 6 months have shown, more characters have been seen as a powerful threat and capable of taking national level or higher tournaments, as many of the voters reflected by containing more characters in their highest tier (and very few votes that had one or two characters at the top).

Why were Miis an addendum?

As of late, Miis have remained a heavily controversial element of Smash 4. Players, figures and tournament organizers in the Smash 4 community have yet to come to a real consensus on how to handle these characters due to their unique nature of creation.

We decided to make the Miis an addendum, not only taking into consideration the two most common Mii rulings (1111 Guest Size, and XXXX Guest Size), but also giving the option to abstain. The reasoning behind this was not only to respect the fact that not all regions share the same ruleset, but that many regions simply just aren't sure how to handle the characters altogether.

Why is X character considered Low Tier?

As stated in the initial release, the 4BR Leaders decided upon using an average group ranking with concurrent votes - tiers, or groups of characters, and the order of characters within them. The score range for groups came to about a 1-10 scoring range (1.72 - 9.88), and the team decided to work with 5 "general" tiers, and 9 tiers total (with bottom tiers being merged together).

After these were split into 5, it meant that any characters that were caught in the score of 4.33 or less (starting with Mr. Game & Watch) would be considered a low tier or bottom tier. Despite the fact that some of these characters, such as Palutena, can defeat top players in the right hands, many of these characters simply have large flaws without the draws of higher tiered characters. In the end, there will always be characters that will simply place lower than others, even if they have some potential.

When will the next version of the Tier List (v3.0) release?

We are currently targeting a January 2017 release for v3.0.

Regional Differences​

Standard deviations varied, as seen by the data, but the consensus for characters at the top and characters near the bottom were generally more consistent.

@Shaya compiled the votes among our Japanese voters, and our European, Australian and South American voters. Keep in mind that there was a limited number of both sets of voters; this makes the numbers more indicative of trends rather than sweeping statements.

Spoiler: Japanese Votes

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group)
Cloud | 0.67 | 1.106 | 10.0 | 0.0
Sonic | 1.83 | 1.067 | 10.0 | 0.0
Diddy Kong | 2.33 | 1.374 | 9.76 | 0.532
Rosalina | 2.83 | 1.572 | 10.0 | 0.0
Bayonetta | 5.5 | 3.149 | 9.25 | 0.758
Mario | 5.67 | 2.809 | 8.58 | 0.677
Sheik | 6.83 | 3.532 | 8.64 | 0.993
Mewtwo | 7.33 | 1.886 | 8.5 | 0.768
Zero Suit Samus | 8.0 | 1.291 | 8.16 | 0.378
Fox | 8.83 | 3.184 | 8.16 | 0.378
Ryu | 11.83 | 6.012 | 8.26 | 0.915
Mega Man | 12.67 | 6.316 | 7.55 | 0.955
Pit | 14.83 | 4.67 | 7.55 | 0.955
Pikachu | 15.33 | 3.145 | 7.02 | 0.823
Toon Link | 17.17 | 3.891 | 7.35 | 0.744
Villager | 17.5 | 6.449 | 7.08 | 0.628
Corrin | 17.6 | 6.344 | 6.44 | 1.172
Lucario | 18.0 | 6.683 | 6.94 | 1.14
Captain Falcon | 19.33 | 4.955 | 6.84 | 0.804
Meta Knight | 19.67 | 7.909 | 6.94 | 1.14
Greninja | 20.0 | 3.651 | 7.08 | 0.628
Ness | 21.67 | 6.289 | 6.66 | 0.953
Lucas | 22.5 | 5.909 | 6.5 | 0.653
Olimar | 23.0 | 5.627 | 6.74 | 0.578
Dark Pit | 23.67 | 9.268 | 6.42 | 0.981
Marth | 26.0 | 5.0 | 6.09 | 0.681
Yoshi | 26.0 | 5.26 | 6.09 | 0.681
Peach | 27.33 | 6.368 | 5.81 | 0.727
Duck Hunt Dog | 27.4 | 7.658 | 6.03 | 1.069
Donkey Kong | 28.67 | 3.636 | 5.99 | 0.754
Bowser | 28.67 | 4.346 | 5.57 | 0.421
Lucina | 30.17 | 3.76 | 5.57 | 0.421
R.O.B. | 30.33 | 6.498 | 5.67 | 1.496
Link | 31.33 | 11.441 | 5.69 | 1.235
Wario | 34.17 | 5.241 | 4.92 | 1.24
Mr. Game & Watch | 34.17 | 7.988 | 4.49 | 1.401
Shulk | 34.83 | 6.388 | 4.88 | 1.412
Samus | 34.83 | 6.466 | 4.71 | 0.938
Pac-Man | 35.83 | 3.484 | 5.33 | 0.626
Ike | 36.67 | 6.316 | 4.15 | 0.495
Luigi | 37.17 | 4.18 | 5.0 | 0.71
Robin | 39.33 | 3.771 | 4.15 | 0.495
Bowser Jr. | 39.5 | 8.958 | 4.05 | 1.337
Palutena | 39.83 | 7.29 | 3.58 | 1.524
Little Mac | 44.17 | 2.478 | 3.4 | 0.885
Mii Gunner | 45.6 | 6.621 | 3.24 | 1.103
Charizard | 45.83 | 3.578 | 3.16 | 0.804
Dr. Mario | 47.17 | 6.012 | 3.03 | 1.474
Falco | 47.33 | 3.35 | 2.83 | 0.802
Roy | 49.0 | 2.887 | 2.31 | 0.942
King Dedede | 49.33 | 2.211 | 2.65 | 1.111
Wii Fit Trainer | 49.5 | 2.217 | 2.65 | 0.744
Mii Brawler | 49.8 | 4.578 | 2.67 | 1.153
Kirby | 49.83 | 3.76 | 2.65 | 0.744
Ganondorf | 51.5 | 4.349 | 2.31 | 0.942
Zelda | 53.0 | 3.055 | 2.08 | 0.481
Jigglypuff | 54.5 | 2.141 | 2.08 | 0.481
Mii Swordsman | 55.4 | 1.497 | 1.87 | 0.405

Spoiler: European, Australia, South American Votes

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group)
Diddy Kong | 1.54 | 2.024 | 9.8 | 0.462
Sheik | 1.85 | 2.445 | 9.78 | 0.515
Cloud | 3.23 | 2.081 | 9.6 | 0.599
Rosalina | 3.31 | 1.682 | 9.37 | 0.685
Mario | 4.31 | 2.162 | 9.47 | 0.68
Sonic | 4.92 | 2.702 | 9.28 | 0.67
Fox | 5.54 | 1.906 | 9.06 | 0.641
Zero Suit Samus | 7.46 | 1.781 | 8.65 | 0.509
Mewtwo | 7.85 | 3.348 | 8.74 | 0.387
Ryu | 8.31 | 3.75 | 8.63 | 0.757
Bayonetta | 9.85 | 4.383 | 8.54 | 1.024
Pikachu | 13.46 | 3.388 | 7.6 | 0.882
Meta Knight | 14.85 | 5.855 | 7.53 | 0.804
Villager | 15.0 | 3.464 | 7.36 | 0.478
Ness | 15.15 | 2.957 | 7.4 | 0.75
Mega Man | 16.23 | 5.78 | 7.26 | 0.622
Toon Link | 16.85 | 3.301 | 7.19 | 0.529
Marth | 17.54 | 6.046 | 7.3 | 0.643
Greninja | 18.08 | 5.385 | 7.06 | 0.918
Corrin | 19.31 | 4.444 | 7.16 | 0.696
Lucario | 20.31 | 6.043 | 6.56 | 0.767
Captain Falcon | 21.85 | 4.538 | 6.68 | 0.477
Donkey Kong | 23.54 | 4.749 | 6.34 | 0.661
R.O.B. | 24.31 | 4.889 | 6.14 | 0.811
Pit | 25.31 | 4.357 | 6.03 | 0.764
Yoshi | 25.69 | 4.746 | 6.36 | 0.727
Dark Pit | 25.85 | 4.737 | 6.03 | 0.764
Luigi | 26.31 | 6.741 | 5.9 | 1.186
Peach | 26.62 | 7.022 | 5.98 | 1.048
Bowser | 29.92 | 6.65 | 5.33 | 0.968
Lucina | 31.31 | 7.936 | 5.34 | 1.102
Lucas | 31.46 | 3.319 | 5.44 | 0.735
Robin | 32.77 | 5.423 | 5.22 | 0.782
Ike | 32.92 | 6.318 | 5.14 | 0.702
Wario | 33.46 | 3.177 | 5.19 | 0.617
Olimar | 33.46 | 8.915 | 5.22 | 1.216
Little Mac | 36.31 | 7.549 | 4.67 | 0.929
Mr. Game & Watch | 36.85 | 6.15 | 4.77 | 1.008
Link | 37.77 | 7.617 | 4.47 | 1.259
Palutena | 38.54 | 4.846 | 4.43 | 0.791
Duck Hunt Dog | 38.85 | 4.974 | 4.39 | 0.898
Pac-Man | 39.15 | 6.274 | 4.16 | 1.127
Kirby | 42.46 | 3.875 | 3.88 | 0.774
Wii Fit Trainer | 42.54 | 5.198 | 4.06 | 0.606
Samus | 43.54 | 6.246 | 3.66 | 1.552
Roy | 44.62 | 4.306 | 3.53 | 0.778
Shulk | 45.92 | 3.222 | 3.45 | 0.671
Bowser Jr. | 46.38 | 2.843 | 3.15 | 0.879
Falco | 46.38 | 4.234 | 3.01 | 1.142
Dr. Mario | 46.54 | 3.855 | 3.25 | 0.667
King Dedede | 47.69 | 6.169 | 3.03 | 1.504
Charizard | 49.0 | 2.542 | 2.9 | 0.963
Mii Brawler | 49.0 | 11.328 | 2.49 | 1.694
Mii Gunner | 51.67 | 5.935 | 2.04 | 1.1
Zelda | 52.15 | 1.833 | 1.87 | 0.598
Mii Swordsman | 52.5 | 5.708 | 1.83 | 1.111
Ganondorf | 52.92 | 0.997 | 1.78 | 0.639
Jigglypuff | 54.54 | 1.216 | 1.56 | 0.449

For additional reference, here is the raw voting data from all voters.

Spoiler: Raw Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

Notable Characters Analysis​

Much like the previous vote, there was a handful of characters whose personal positions on the tier list were heavily debated and contested, as well as some notable placements on the tier list that deserve a mention.


This time around, Link was, according to raw voting data, the most controversial character between voters. A lot of this honestly came up due to the fact that many of Link's huge results came after the voting period, though that's not to say that T has carried the sole weight. He appeared in both high, mid, and low tier in many votes, making him quite the perplexity. However, come v3.0, if Link continues his streak, he will likely move up, with some top players thinking that he might even be a high tier.


Olimar walked away with the second highest standard deviation. With his representation being rather sparse, and having a smaller pool of character experts, it is not much of a surprise that he ended up with this much diversity in rankings.

Myran , 4BR member and widely recognized as one of the best Olimars in the world, has provided a write-up regarding Olimar and his current place in the meta:

So Olimar is a character that most players including some Olimar players consider bad. His results aren't as strong as other characters, but I think that's due to other circumstances as opposed to the characters flaws. Most top Olimar's including myself don't travel out of their states that often. For various reasons, mine being money, this means he doesn't get very strong displays often. He's not perfect, but he's top 15 imo, and easily high tier. I do generally well in FL almost always landing top 8 at the big tournaments here, and have been for awhile. I know Shuton does very well in Japan even making top 3 at some of the stacked ones. There's some other good placings, but I don't know them all.

What I think really holds Olimar back in many players eyes is that they either have interactions with him that skew their perspective and make them thing oh he's not good. (Looking at the regions with Olimar players who may not be as strong) Information regarding him that has circulated, but is only a part of his overall character. The information I'm talking about is how Pikmin clank. Yes they are considered projectiles. However, they have some interesting properties that allow them to circumvent the issue of clanking when performed right. To add to this they're some of the best projectiles in the game only really losing to ones that can't be stopped. Examples being Thoron, fully charged Water Shuriken, and ROB Laser.

So let me break down some of the techniques and things Olimar can do to circumvent his largest issue, the clanking. There's something that I coined a "desync smash". This happens when Olimar is moving and starts a smash after the movement. So if he's running and does an up-smash or a pivot fsmash, or if he's falling and lands with a smash (Usually dsmash) it can trigger it. What happens is if the opponent throws out and attack it can catch the Pikmin during the start of the smash before it's hitbox comes out, it's hurtbox is out because it has been desynced by the smash. By the opponent throwing out an attack it locks the Pikmins position in place (This means the Pikmin will smash from where it was as opposed to where Olimar is currently), and finishes the smash. (Once a smash is started it can't be stopped or killed during the attack) Since the opponents attack hit the Pikmin before the smash hitbox came out the opponent is stuck there in the animation. This allows the smash to commence uninterrupted hitting them. I've punished some of the best moves in the game with this, True Shoryuken being one of them. It does sound situational, but with continued practice I'm getting better and better at making it happen. Since it's really just awareness and positioning it's a viable tool to punish attacks you cannot normally. On a smaller not you can do this technique to a similar extent without desyncing the position. Whenever a smash is being charged the Pikmin sits their with it's hurtbox active, this means when spaced right it can soak hits then release hitting the opponent. It's how Olimar can punish things like Shuttle Loop, Mario Up-B, Shoryuken, and more under the ledge when they have hitboxes. Actually if the moves trade at the right time Olimar may even be hit, but the smash will still hit them since their move hit something. This is just one of the tools Olimar has to work around his weaknesses.

Another big advantage he can gain is lagging his opponents hitbox's with his Pikmin. This can backfire at times, but I'd say a solid 90% of the time it's allowed me to punish moves I couldn't normally. It's also allowed me to dodge ones I shouldn't have been able too. This is an extremely important use of the Pikmin, and is again something I feel more Olimar players should put into practice.

He can pressure extremely well with the proper lineup. Having two to three purples can allow him to pressure shield better than most if not all characters in the game imo. Retreating purple bair is safe on shield, and when coupled with purple side-b before hand it can allow for strong pressure. His smashes are also notorious for poking shields. (I hear this complaint from players to often to ignore it) His dsmash can break shield when up close since both Pikmin can hit shield, and with a red and purple or two purples it's not hard to take it from 100% to 0%. His nair is a great way to snub out the approaching opponents move since it's a nice long multihit.

His defensive options also help him reduce the issue of being juggled somewhat easily. He has whistle which has super armor frames 6-12 and very little lag allowing you to tank a hit, and then punish most of the opponents moves. B-Reverse Pikmin Pluck allows him to switch his momentum and direction similar to what whistle did in Brawl. His up-b can be used as a third jump and immediately canceled into an aerial if need be. (It can also get out of combos and multihits often). He's hard to gimp since his recovery covers so much distance, and he can chuck purples towards you to put of some hitboxes while he recovers.

What I'm getting at is that he has strong tools to combat the opponent, and he can be the aggressor with the proper lineup. The biggest thing holding him back is how unforgiving he is to play. He requires more than just managing Pikmin, his spacings and timings have to be very precise most of the time. Unlike most characters, being off makes you just outright lose the transaction or have a Pikmin do a standard desync. (Most desyncs can be worked around with proper spacing and awareness) It's a work in progress from me and other top Olimars. I think once we start attending more it'll make him look better to most, but for the time people are seeing what is a work in progress. He doesn't have amazing confirms like ZSS, Ryu, or others. He has some, and they're strong, just not as over-centralizing as theirs. I'm one to look at Olimar's abilities when people can actually put his tools into proper use. I've had days where I felt I could take any character in the game no problems just by using his tools properly. So if people wanna tell me why they feel he's mid tier or worse I'd love to hear it. I don't think saying results really does it justice, because in the states where he's present he usually does well. He just doesn't get to attend nationals that often.

Much of Lucina's controversy came from the distance between her and Marth in the tier list, mainly from whether or not she and Marth should be grouped together. Ultimately, the 4BR decided that the differences between these characters are enough to not warrant a merge and so she was ranked differently from Marth. Even so, Lucina jumped up 13 spots due to her buffs alongside the Hero-King (who jumped up 23 spots).

One of the big issues behind the character is where exactly her shortcomings place her compared to Marth. She generally has a big lack of results, which often only adds to the question as well.

@M@v, Fox and Lucina player from the 4BR, gave a good analysis on the big differences between Marth and Lucina, and how it affects the gap between the two characters:
The below quote was edited after release to rectify errors.

Lucina's placement compared to Marth is an issue that is brought up quite often, and it is again the case with the new tier list. Why is Lucina, a character that is almost identical to Marth, not right next to him/tied with him on the tier list? Before we dive into this with more detail, let's start off by pointing out in earlier patches, Marth and Lucina were indeed much closer to eachother. But overtime, the list of buffs they received helped Marth more in the longrun than Lucina. This is in addition to the inherent advantages the tipper mechanic has in many situations. Let's break it down:

Let me preface by briefly covering how their swords work.
Lucina does not have a tipper, but her sword does what is approximately inbetween a marth tipper and non tipper in terms of damage and knockback along the entire blade (I can hunt the exact stats later; pretty sure they are in the Marcina boards). This brings up the fact that Lucina gets more damage out any attack that is not tippered compared to Marth. For a good while, this was the cornerstone of the pro Lucina argument: Unless you were perfect, Lucina could potentially be more beneficial in the longrun since you will not be landing every single attack as a tipper, no matter how good you are as a player.

With that aside, lets dive in.

First, the patch changes that affected Marth and Lucina. There were multiple patch changes that affected them roughly the same (IE slight % increases in damage here and there), but there were two patch changes in particular that helped Marth especially.

The big one: The shield stun changes.
When the patch rolled around that introduced increased shield stun (I need to go back and double check which one), this had a massive impact on Marth. Tippers induce a lot more shield stun on an opponent. The result of this is that Marth can be much safer than Lucina when attacking a shielding opponent. With proper spacing, his tippers moves can be much harder for a shielding opponent to punish. Having this huge safety advantage over Lucina pays massive dividends, especially when having to face down top tier characters where a couple frames can mean the difference between being safe and being punished.

All of Marth and Lucina's A moves follow the same principle for the most part: Marth's will be better if spaced, Lucina's will be superior if not. Marth can gain some better combos though by hitting with untippered moves, which will lead into tippered follow ups easier.

Their grabs and throws are exactly identical. Both do the same things at the same %s

Their Special moves is where it has been argued Lucina has an advantage. But does she really? Depends.

(B) Shield breaker: Although Lucina's is still a powerful move, Marth's give the strongest chance to break shield while charging the least amount of time due to tippers. Both have stock ending potential though.

(Side B) Dancing blade: In general, Lucina's is much more reliable in terms of KO potential. The last hit of Lucina's side b is pretty strong and can end stocks at decent percents. That being said, Marth's can tipper more often than people realize. Following an opponents DI and ending it with a side direction or up direction attack pending their DI can net you a tipper quite often, as well as just bad DI from an opponent. As you can imagine, this can net super early kills.

(up B) Dolphin slash: are the same.

(down b) counter: are the same.

Lucina also has a fatal flaw in her design. In most matchups, despite having the ability to do consistent damage anywhere on the blade, she has to play the spacing game anyway to be the safest. So essentially, so has to play like marth and go for tippers to remain as safe as possible anyway. In these situations, you are being directly gimped by not being Marth in a matchup where you have to play like Marth. A straight downgrade.

Last but not least, results. This section speaks for itself. Marth has much better and consistent results in the current meta. Players my Mr.E and Pugwest have put up solid results with Marth, top 16ing major events. Meanwhile, Lucina is nowhere to be seen in those higher placings.

Lucas remained one of the more contested characters in terms of raw standard deviation results for v2.0. A handful of votes, notably Midwest opinions, seemed to think rather low of his abilities, generally considering him an inferior Ness who is overall overshadowed by him. Compared to the first tier list, more players have picked him up - however, his current placing is 33rd, just 3 places above his Tier List v1.0 placement.

4BR member @Luco, currently ranked #4 in Australia, gave his own take on Lucas and his current place on the Tier List:

Lucas has had a strange ride to where he's seen in the current meta today. His initital release saw muddied opinions of him as people still clung to him as the inferior Ness; gladly this trend fell off over time and people begun to realise Lucas was his own unique character with his own unique competitive playstyle. That playstyle wasn't immediately clear however - Lucas proved to be a difficult character to use, which may have contributed to his lack of results immediately post-release: People focused too much on playing him as either hyper aggressive or hyper defensive, both of which have some merit but ultimately Lucas fell into a counter-poking archetype, and this appears to be - for now - where his greatest strength lies, in forcing an opponent's approach (which he does in the vast majority of match-ups), then punishing that approach with a wide array of highly safe boxing moves (aerials, specials, Zair, jabs, tilts). This is an obvious contrast to the zone-breaking, grappler playstyle of Ness, and yet many use both PSI kids as secondaries or dual mains.

Lucas, it was predicted by many, would rise to join the ranks of the upper tiers, but no-one really knew where or when that shift would begin. For a long time Lucas' results were heavily carried by Taiheta in Japan with not much else to show for him but more recently we've seen notable wins or results from Kodystri (previously known as Xanos), Mekos, PK Blueberry, Jebb, Hakii, Cheezeballer and more, as well as a positively-trending usage of Lucas with bastions of high-level mains worldwide. Taiheta's performance at EVO rings as a notable stand-out and yet much of Lucas' recent work came at a time where many back-room members were inactive or had already submitted their votes. Additionally, it's still hard to place Lucas based off results alone, and while he appears to have strong MU niches vs high tiers such as Ryu, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mario and Ness (he doesn't necessarily win all of these of course), he also has questionable match-ups with characters such as Diddy Kong, Cloud and Greninja.

This I feel has contributed to his current placing at #33 on the current tier list. However with results continuing to trend positively for Lucas and a growing set of mains appearing globally, Lucas' option-rich playstyle is sure to yield more benefits and he is currently looking brightly towards the future.

Dark Pit's standard deviation isn't really what landed him here; it's moreso the fact that, unlike v1.0, he's not next to Pit. The primary reasoning behind this comes from regional differences; Japan believes him to be a much more inferior character to Pit because of poor arrow control, with many Japanese players ranking him multiple tiers lower than his light counterpart. While he was 2 spots next to Pit in the final tier list, Japan's votes placed him 12 spots below Pit.

When it was balanced out with the other votes, Dark Pit was a little over a point behind Pit in the ordered average, and Donkey Kong and Peach filled the gaps.


Perhaps the most intriguing position of all comes from Cloud, ranked #2 on the tier list. While Cloud is noted to have lacked the results during the Summer of Smash (with Mew2King often dropping out to focus on Melee, and Tweek, Komorikiri and more having some results that may not reflect the status of a #2 character), he has stayed relevant at many levels of play. Despite his underwhelming performance in the US, Japan ranked him as #1 with their voters. As of late, more counterplay has been developed to handle this character. While he might stay dominant in doubles, it's likely that he might fall a few places in the list come v3.0 unless a cloudy resurgence arrives.


Mewtwo made quite the impression in 6 months. After being outright blessed by multiple balance patches, Abadango went on to win Pound 2016, giving many players an impression that he was a top threat. And, as it's been seen, more and more players are picking him up, but he hasn't seen much in terms of massive wins beyond Pound as of yet. That didn't stop him from advancing 27 spots compared to v1.0, landing him in the bottom of Top Tier next to Bayonetta.

Conclusion​

We hope these explanations have shed some light on to how the release of this list was conducted and some of the more controversial aspects of the list. With the meta of Smash 4 fleshing out and more characters having their true strengths being shown, there is still much to see from this game, patches or no patches. As always, we'll be looking forward to your thoughts in the comments below.

A special thank you to @Shaya for providing data, and @Popi, @A10theHero and @Diosdi for assisting with the release of this writeup. Translation provided by Diosdi.

 

How did Ryo almost beat Abadango then...? Please explain why this matchup is "easily 30:70" or the point is invalid... it's a good point too, try using a better example.

Background information: im a diddy main who used to main roy with diddy as my secondary. I dropped roy because i found myself using diddy more than roy due to troublesome matchups. I recall a specific tournament in which i played against a Rosa main from a neighboring region. I started with roy, and lost the game after only inflicting 25% the whole game. The worst loss of any ive ever had. After switching to diddy (who also has a negative MU against Rosa), i won the remaining two games of the set, although they were close games.

I have no idea how Ryo and Aba had such close games, perhaps Aba isnt as good with Rosa (or he was the one using Roy, i dont know what youre referencing). Or maybe they weren't versed with the matchup.

As to why the MU favors Rosa so heavily:
-Rosa is a heavily spacing orientated character, who can put up a wall that prevents close range characters from getting in. This causes many of her favorable matchups (ex: Captain falcon, Fox, Mario)
-Roy has very limited approach options, and none of his moves are safe on shield. This makes zoning him out even easier.
-Roy lacks an effective way to deal with Luma. His main tools are dash attack and Fsmash, both are easily punishable and a competent Rosa wont get caught by them. DED launches Luma far but the early hits cannot combo into each other on luma. Ftilt does not launch luma
-Roy is tied as the 5th fastest faller in the game, making him very susceptible to combos. Rosa also juggles him pretty hard, and he lacks good tools to break combos.
-Most of Roy's low % damage output comes from grab combos and setups, none of which work on Rosa. Especially since she is so floaty
---Jab > Grab can be broken out of with Luma, or just by jumping away; assuming you even get close enough to land a Jab
---Fthrow > DED/Nair/Fair can all be avoided with proper escape options. This is especially notable due to them being his B&B combos.

In general, Roy is a character who thrives in close range due to his Jab and falling Uair set ups, as well as his grab combos, and Rosa is simply amazing at shutting them down.


Other notable examples of low/mid tier characters who have sufferable, or at least very difficult high tier MUs:
Ganondorf VS Diddy kong
Capain falcon VS Mario *
Little Mac VS Cloud/Diddy Kong
Megaman VS Rosalina & Luma
Villager VS Rosalina & Luma
Charizard VS Sonic
King Dedede VS Diddy Kong
Shulk VS Sheik
Zelda VS Sonic
Bowser Jr. VS Cloud

This is a list i made off the top of my head, of characters who are in my opinion inherently countered by specific top tier characters. It isnt perfect, and it certainly isnt complete. Some of it may be plain wrong. With a list like this, of course there are probably videos out there of someone winning that MU, but that doesn't illegitimize my opinion. Player skill and circumstances will always play a role. The higher on the tier list a character is, the less fringe MUs they have. And im not close minded enough to think this list is God's truth, its merely my opinion.

Also, to be fair, there are top tier characters with fringe MUs as well. Where they simply lose to a specific character who is lower on the tier list.
Diddy Kong VS Megaman
Rosalina & Luma VS Meta Knight
Cloud VS Corrin
Diddy Kong VS Luigi (controversial)
Mario VS Marth *

*MUs im not particularly sure of.

 

Haha, a damage control article that's going to need its own damage control article.

 

What about ? A low tier with the results of a high mid. Even LarryLur says that Mac definitely isn't low tier.

 

Background information: im a diddy main who used to main roy with diddy as my secondary. I dropped roy because i found myself using diddy more than roy due to troublesome matchups. I recall a specific tournament in which i played against a Rosa main from a neighboring region. I started with roy, and lost the game after only inflicting 25% the whole game. The worst loss of any ive ever had. After switching to diddy (who also has a negative MU against Rosa), i won the remaining two games of the set, although they were close games.

I have no idea how Ryo and Aba had such close games, perhaps Aba isnt as good with Rosa (or he was the one using Roy, i dont know what youre referencing). Or maybe they weren't versed with the matchup.

As to why the MU favors Rosa so heavily:
-Rosa is a heavily spacing orientated character, who can put up a wall that prevents close range characters from getting in. This causes many of her favorable matchups (ex: Captain falcon, Fox, Mario)
-Roy has very limited approach options, and none of his moves are safe on shield. This makes zoning him out even easier.
-Roy lacks an effective way to deal with Luma. His main tools are dash attack and Fsmash, both are easily punishable and a competent Rosa wont get caught by them. DED launches Luma far but the early hits cannot combo into each other on luma. Ftilt does not launch luma
-Roy is tied as the 5th fastest faller in the game, making him very susceptible to combos. Rosa also juggles him pretty hard, and he lacks good tools to break combos.
-Most of Roy's low % damage output comes from grab combos and setups, none of which work on Rosa. Especially since she is so floaty
---Jab > Grab can be broken out of with Luma, or just by jumping away; assuming you even get close enough to land a Jab
---Fthrow > DED/Nair/Fair can all be avoided with proper escape options. This is especially notable due to them being his B&B combos.

In general, Roy is a character who thrives in close range due to his Jab and falling Uair set ups, as well as his grab combos, and Rosa is simply amazing at shutting them down.


Other notable examples of low/mid tier characters who have sufferable, or at least very difficult high tier MUs:
Ganondorf VS Diddy kong
Capain falcon VS Mario *
Little Mac VS Cloud/Diddy Kong
Megaman VS Rosalina & Luma
Villager VS Rosalina & Luma
Charizard VS Sonic
King Dedede VS Diddy Kong
Shulk VS Sheik
Zelda VS Sonic
Bowser Jr. VS Cloud

This is a list i made off the top of my head, of characters who are in my opinion inherently countered by specific top tier characters. It isnt perfect, and it certainly isnt complete. Some of it may be plain wrong. With a list like this, of course there are probably videos out there of someone winning that MU, but that doesn't illegitimize my opinion. Player skill and circumstances will always play a role. The higher on the tier list a character is, the less fringe MUs they have. And im not close minded enough to think this list is God's truth, its merely my opinion.

Also, to be fair, there are top tier characters with fringe MUs as well. Where they simply lose to a specific character who is lower on the tier list.
Diddy Kong VS Megaman
Rosalina & Luma VS Meta Knight
Cloud VS Corrin
Diddy Kong VS Luigi (controversial)
Mario VS Marth *

*MUs im not particularly sure of.

Just gonna go ahead and say the Roy and Rosa community on SB/Discord has agreed the MU is 50/50.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wr59aiRBezYokEWB6y72EPlQSZvs4KpjSCD3Xj_NjO4/mobilebasic

This is the MU doc written by Peeko&Luma

 

Just gonna go ahead and say the Roy and Rosa community on SB/Discord has agreed the MU is 50/50.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wr59aiRBezYokEWB6y72EPlQSZvs4KpjSCD3Xj_NjO4/mobilebasic

This is the MU doc written by Peeko&Luma

I dont really have the time to address every point in that document, but i can gaurantee it isnt 50/50.
The main issue with that document is that it fails to adequatley address the advantages Rosa has over Roy, which as i pointed out earlier, are many.

In practice, the MU is very difficult for Roy.

And don't talk like you speak for the entire Roy and Rosa community. Many prominent Rosas and Roys place the MU in Rosa's favor
Sources:
Dabuz/kirihara - https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/49mbxg/dabuzs_rosalina_mu_chart/
Falln - https://twitter.com/fallnaway/status/761601409967984640
Viceroy - https://mobile.twitter.com/ViceroySSB/status/770394674418810885
Eventhub poll - http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/roy/

Interestingly, every single MU chart i saw put Rosa in favor. These links are only a few of the more notable ones i found.

The matchup is not even.

 

I dont really have the time to address every point in that document, but i can gaurantee it isnt 50/50.
The main issue with that document is that it fails to adequatley address the advantages Rosa has over Roy, which as i pointed out earlier, are many.

In practice, the MU is very difficult for Roy.

And don't talk like you speak for the entire Roy and Rosa community. Many prominent Rosas and Roys place the MU in Rosa's favor
Sources:
Dabuz/kirihara - https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/49mbxg/dabuzs_rosalina_mu_chart/
Falln - https://twitter.com/fallnaway/status/761601409967984640
Viceroy - https://mobile.twitter.com/ViceroySSB/status/770394674418810885
Eventhub poll - http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/roy/

Interestingly, every single MU chart i saw put Rosa in favor. These links are only a few of the more notable ones i found.

The matchup is not even.

First off, I never said that i spoke for the entire Rosa/Roy community. I simply showed what the SB/Discord community thought the MU was like.

Second, why would you post eventhubs. It's quite possibly one of the worst places to look for tiers and MU knowledge.

Third, the only notable Rosa players you mentioned who made a Rosa MU chart were Falln and Dabuz. Viceroy only goes to local Xanadus.

Finally, Dabuz and Falln are just one person. They didn't discuss it with a community to have more knowledge in the topic. While this was. Also, Rosa isn't one of Roys worst MU's. Roys absolute worst would have to Diddy and Pika.

I went ahead and re-read your post above. You stated how Roy thrives on close range. That is not entirely true. Roy doesn't have to always be a rush down and getting in character. Matter of fact, he's not one. Roy relies on baiting out the opponent and looking for patterns. And about roys setups on Rosa, while his dthrow is terrible against her, his fthrow isn't. Since Rosa is floaty, that gives Roy a way easier time delivering hefty combos. And Roy doesn't have to rely on grabs, nair and jab both set up for great combos. And you don't HAVE to regrab after jab, you can just use an aerial, or even jab->bair for the kill. Roys jab and nair also do a pretty good job covering luma, since they usually hit luma, unless lumas not next to rosa. Roys f tilt also is very safe on shield, being very quick and hard to punish, and kills fairly early. Especially on a floaty character like Rosa.

So now i'll just wait for a reply lol

 

Why the Miis are still This controversial is beyond me. It's almost as if there's been no effort made to make a compromise involving them.

 

Why the Miis are still This controversial is beyond me. It's almost as if there's been no effort made to make a compromise involving them.

I think because the Mii creation is usually rely on items for their strength, speed, and tech. With Mii's height and weight, it can affect the speed.

What about ? A low tier with the results of a high mid. Even LarryLur says that Mac definitely isn't low tier.

Because there isn't really a lot of Little Mac players supporting him. Also, I think how Little Mac is not an air fighter concerns a lot of competitive players.

 

First off, I never said that i spoke for the entire Rosa/Roy community. I simply showed what the SB/Discord community thought the MU was like.

Second, why would you post eventhubs. It's quite possibly one of the worst places to look for tiers and MU knowledge.

Third, the only notable Rosa players you mentioned who made a Rosa MU chart were Falln and Dabuz. Viceroy only goes to local Xanadus.

Finally, Dabuz and Falln are just one person. They didn't discuss it with a community to have more knowledge in the topic. While this was. Also, Rosa isn't one of Roys worst MU's. Roys absolute worst would have to Diddy and Pika.

I went ahead and re-read your post above. You stated how Roy thrives on close range. That is not entirely true. Roy doesn't have to always be a rush down and getting in character. Matter of fact, he's not one. Roy relies on baiting out the opponent and looking for patterns. And about roys setups on Rosa, while his dthrow is terrible against her, his fthrow isn't. Since Rosa is floaty, that gives Roy a way easier time delivering hefty combos. And Roy doesn't have to rely on grabs, nair and jab both set up for great combos. And you don't HAVE to regrab after jab, you can just use an aerial, or even jab->bair for the kill. Roys jab and nair also do a pretty good job covering luma, since they usually hit luma, unless lumas not next to rosa. Roys f tilt also is very safe on shield, being very quick and hard to punish, and kills fairly early. Especially on a floaty character like Rosa.

So now i'll just wait for a reply lol

I posted MU charts for Dabuz, Kirihara, and Falln. Those are the 3 most infamous Rosa mains, so I doubt youll find anything more reliable than that. Honestly, if the MU was even at least ONE of them would put it at that. And to be real honest, theyre opinion is more reliable than a few Roy mains and a Rosa main on SB. I dont think its fair for you to dismiss their opinions so loosely.
I used eventhubs because it represents a group of opinions, and no notable Roy mains have made MU charts. I couldnt find one from Sepharon.


As for the second section of your post regarding my Roy analysis, most of it is wrong. Roy certainly relies on close range set ups. I never said he HAS to regrab, but that is not the issue. The issue is landing the Jab in the first place.

Also, floaty characters are not more susceptible to combos because they fly further back and experience less hitstun. Lightweights like Rosa, however, are easier to combo because of Roys weight dependent throws. Rosa has luma to break out of non frame perfect combos though.

Ftilt is indeed safe on shield, but thats only if its perfectly spaced. It also isnt very rewarding because it has no set ups and doesnt kill without the sweet spot.

Finally, Roy can be played as bait and punish or rushdown, depending on the MU. Generally he has to play bait and punish when he is in a losing MU to keep himself from being immediately destroyed by unsafe play.

 

I think because the Mii creation is usually rely on items for their strength, speed, and tech. With Mii's height and weight, it can affect the speed.
.

But it doesn't rely on items for that stuff, those are just optional bonuses. Their size and weight can also be optimized to be more tourney savvy (or you could just leave it at the default size and weight). These points and more could easily be brought up in this argument, but it's still a controversial subject.

 

Still one unanswered question.
What's Diddy Kong doing in first?

I'm also surprised they didn't address diddy at all. I feel like he kind of bodies the whole cast aside from around 5 characters. And those characters we're pretty unsure if they are -1 or even. I feel like that's the reasoning most players have. Diddy may lose some matchups but he has a whole lot more +2s than other top tiers.

 

However, come v3.0, if Link continues his streak, he will likely move up, with some top players thinking that he might even be a high tier.

 

I think because the Mii creation is usually rely on items for their strength, speed, and tech. With Mii's height and weight, it can affect the speed.


Because there isn't really a lot of Little Mac players supporting him. Also, I think how Little Mac is not an air fighter concerns a lot of competitive players.

Sol, Alphican, Vash, Cockchops, Nato Senpai and others get results with Mac. And Mac's up air is good for extending combos, so is his fair/bair. His fair/bair can lead into tech reads/jab reset set ups. His nair can lead into footstool setups on super heavyweights. Mac is very underrated.

 

I'm surprised was not mentioned. He dropped on this list (from 40 to 44) compared to the first list despite gaining far better results since then. I def wouldn't say he's worse than the likes of .

I actually think that Duck Hunt is a lot higher on a tier list than Shulk as he has a lot of better tools than the monado boy and also has a better match up spread

 

That's because he's used more... Corrin has way better potential (I know I'm a bit of a biast with her but still).

IMO Corrin has the potential to be higher than Marth however as it stands Marth just has better results than Corrin which speaks miles in a tier list enviornment

 

Honestly I can't believe Dabuz considers Olimar is be so bad.
He's got plenty of positives that in my opinion outweigh the negatives.
It's just gonna take time for someone to truly master him to bring him into Top 25 where he belongs.
He's lightweight and fails in every category of movement except for Air Acceleration.
And succeeds at EVERYTHING else.
Damage Output, Grab game, Kill power (Especially Purple) , recovery. All stellar

The thing with Olimar is that he doesn't have a lot of room to grow where as other characters have a lot of potential to jump up higher on the tier list. Because Olimar doesn't have that it's easier to play around his tools making it so that even a good match up for Olimar is one he could lose

 

How to win as Link​

1. Pick up your controller
2. Place a rock on the "B" Button

Link actually has a lot of cool stuff he can do (not involving the b button) and really good Link players that i've seen use Link's normals just as much as his specials

 

Still one unanswered question.
What's Diddy Kong doing in first?

Diddy Kong still has an incredible neutral game, amazing match up spread, combo tools, zoning tools, frame traps, amazing recovery, etc..

 

Link actually has a lot of cool stuff he can do (not involving the b button) and really good Link players that i've seen use Link's normals just as much as his specials

I have seen a lot of good Link players myself; the type of players where you can lose with a smile on your face and say "this is what Smash can really be".

 

I have seen a lot of good Link players myself; the type of players where you can lose with a smile on your face and say "this is what Smash can really be".

--But then you have people who can do just as well if not better via spamming. One thing that people commonly don't factor in regards to spammers is that just because they are using the same attacks doesn't mean they're attacking the same way; Link may not always use a Bomb every 1.5 seconds for 3 times in a row, he may use 2 Bombs in 1 second, use a Fully Charged arrow, shoot 1 Bomb and pull out another, Throw a Boomerang, Jump, Throw held bomb and then Forward Smash. This problem gets even worse when combined with rolling and perfect pivoting. This means that the characters can Appeal to Defense, which is a disproportionately powerful tool in this game.

Another common misconception is that people who don't spam are "good". It's not that they're better or worse than a Spammer, it's just that they work harder than Spammers. ZeRo, for example, could very easily beat somebody by spamming, just like he could beat somebody by not spamming. Typically, from my experience in Sm4sh's competitive scene, Defense is the more rewarded option, however, it's a Balanced Defense (good mixups/options) that's rewarded the most, with this in mind, some characters (such as Kirby), may not get much mileage off of Spamming alone, while others (Link, Toon Link, Robin, Sonic, Ness, etc.) may benefit more (or even mostly) off of Spamming.

 

--But then you have people who can do just as well if not better via spamming. One thing that people commonly don't factor in regards to spammers is that just because they are using the same attacks doesn't mean they're attacking the same way; Link may not always use a Bomb every 1.5 seconds for 3 times in a row, he may use 2 Bombs in 1 second, use a Fully Charged arrow, shoot 1 Bomb and pull out another, Throw a Boomerang, Jump, Throw held bomb and then Forward Smash. This problem gets even worse when combined with rolling and perfect pivoting. This means that the characters can Appeal to Defense, which is a disproportionately powerful tool in this game.

Another common misconception is that people who don't spam are "good". It's not that they're better or worse than a Spammer, it's just that they work harder than Spammers. ZeRo, for example, could very easily beat somebody by spamming, just like he could beat somebody by not spamming. Typically, from my experience in Sm4sh's competitive scene, Defense is the more rewarded option, however, it's a Balanced Defense (good mixups/options) that's rewarded the most, with this in mind, some characters (such as Kirby), may not get much mileage off of Spamming alone, while others (Link, Toon Link, Robin, Sonic, Ness, etc.) may benefit more (or even mostly) off of Spamming.

Ive never understood the idea that Ness is a spammy character. His Pk fire is easily punishable and can be broken out of. Bthrow is good but its not really a "spammy" move as much as a really powerful stock cap. Pk thunder can be spammed but only while Ness is in the advantage state, which is balanced by his weak disadvantage state. Other than that his options are very standard.

 

--But then you have people who can do just as well if not better via spamming. One thing that people commonly don't factor in regards to spammers is that just because they are using the same attacks doesn't mean they're attacking the same way; Link may not always use a Bomb every 1.5 seconds for 3 times in a row, he may use 2 Bombs in 1 second, use a Fully Charged arrow, shoot 1 Bomb and pull out another, Throw a Boomerang, Jump, Throw held bomb and then Forward Smash. This problem gets even worse when combined with rolling and perfect pivoting. This means that the characters can Appeal to Defense, which is a disproportionately powerful tool in this game.

Another common misconception is that people who don't spam are "good". It's not that they're better or worse than a Spammer, it's just that they work harder than Spammers. ZeRo, for example, could very easily beat somebody by spamming, just like he could beat somebody by not spamming. Typically, from my experience in Sm4sh's competitive scene, Defense is the more rewarded option, however, it's a Balanced Defense (good mixups/options) that's rewarded the most, with this in mind, some characters (such as Kirby), may not get much mileage off of Spamming alone, while others (Link, Toon Link, Robin, Sonic, Ness, etc.) may benefit more (or even mostly) off of Spamming.

Using projectiles a lot =/= spamming. With Link, his projectiles are used to limit options, and force approaches, which he can punish with normal attacks most notably his Neutral Aerial. Link does use bombs a lot, but they are his most versatile projectile, so it's understandable. Also, I don't think that any good Robin player spams projectiles.

 

Diddy Kong still has an incredible neutral game, amazing match up spread, combo tools, zoning tools, frame traps, amazing recovery, etc..

Amazing recovery? Since when? It's not bad, but it's not even close to amazing. Characters like , , , have far better recoveries, to name a few.
Also, how is his matchup spread better than the likes of someone like or ?

 

Amazing recovery? Since when? It's not bad, but it's not even close to amazing. Characters like , , , have far better recoveries, to name a few.
Also, how is his matchup spread better than the likes of someone like or ?

Diddy only loses like 3 matchups ()and theyre nothing worse than 55:45.
Sonic has a better MU spread but not really Bayo from my experience. She is a really interesting character, and i dont know a ton about her, but judging by tier list placement alone she cant be comparable to Diddy. I know she struggles against Diddy.

Also Diddy's recovery is actually pretty good, not as good as the ones you mentioned, but still very good. People often think Diddy has poor recovery because its his only true "weakness", but in a vacuum his recovery is way above average.

 

Diddy only loses like 3 matchups ()and theyre nothing worse than 55:45.
Sonic has a better MU spread but not really Bayo from my experience. She is a really interesting character, and i dont know a ton about her, but judging by tier list placement alone she cant be comparable to Diddy. I know she struggles against Diddy.

Also Diddy's recovery is actually pretty good, not as good as the ones you mentioned, but still very good. People often think Diddy has poor recovery because its his only true "weakness", but in a vacuum his recovery is way above average.

I'd argue that Bayonetta's matchup spread is the best in the game, better than Sonic's. Lots of top level bayonetta's believe the diddy matchup is a slight advantage for diddy or even, and believe the rest are even or winning for bayonetta. There's even reason to believe bayonetta would be even with diddy, such as the fact that bananas are not too effective on bayonetta due to bayonetta's ability to witchtime it whenever she wants.

Your statement that "she can't be comparable to diddy due to her placement alone" is simply invalid, considering the fact that this tier list was made before nerfed bayonetta's potential was realised. Many players' results, Salem's and Pinkfresh's to name a few, have proven to be better than what this tier list implies.

Diddy's recovery is better than most overall, but nowhere near amazing. It might be close to amazing if diddy isn't sent at a bad downwards angle and/or has no double jump such that he is forced to use up-B, but there have been many circumstances in top level play where diddy is forced to use his up-B and a lot of the time it is either intercepted, it doesn't reach out of fear of interception, or it simply doesn't reach.

Diddy kong's main weakness isn't his recovery, but rather the fact that he is solely neutral based. This is why he gets shut down by characters like megaman and olimar (why didn't you include olimar in diddy's losing MUs?)

Anyway, it's likely that diddy loses too many matchups to be the BEST in the game, although he does very well against the rest of the cast outside of his losing matchups. Characters like sonic, bayonetta or even cloud are far more likely contenders.

 

Amazing recovery? Since when? It's not bad, but it's not even close to amazing. Characters like , , , have far better recoveries, to name a few.
Also, how is his matchup spread better than the likes of someone like or ?

With Diddy's side-b on top of the fact that his up-b if charged can recover from almost anywhere his recovery while not the best in the game is still really good. Diddy Kong as far as match ups go doesn't have any HARD counters (he still has characters that he slightly loses to but none that are unbeatable) and has a slight advantage if not better against most of the cast making his match up spread one of the best if not the best in the game. IMO while both Bayo and Sonic are top tier characters, I don't think they have better match up spreads then Diddy Kong. With that said I still think that Sheik is a better contender for the number one spot but definitely not characters like Sonic or Bayo.

 

--But then you have people who can do just as well if not better via spamming. One thing that people commonly don't factor in regards to spammers is that just because they are using the same attacks doesn't mean they're attacking the same way; Link may not always use a Bomb every 1.5 seconds for 3 times in a row, he may use 2 Bombs in 1 second, use a Fully Charged arrow, shoot 1 Bomb and pull out another, Throw a Boomerang, Jump, Throw held bomb and then Forward Smash. This problem gets even worse when combined with rolling and perfect pivoting. This means that the characters can Appeal to Defense, which is a disproportionately powerful tool in this game.

Another common misconception is that people who don't spam are "good". It's not that they're better or worse than a Spammer, it's just that they work harder than Spammers. ZeRo, for example, could very easily beat somebody by spamming, just like he could beat somebody by not spamming. Typically, from my experience in Sm4sh's competitive scene, Defense is the more rewarded option, however, it's a Balanced Defense (good mixups/options) that's rewarded the most, with this in mind, some characters (such as Kirby), may not get much mileage off of Spamming alone, while others (Link, Toon Link, Robin, Sonic, Ness, etc.) may benefit more (or even mostly) off of Spamming.

There is a lot of counter play to "spamming". You can catch on to their habits of zoning with projectiles and counter it with the right play depending on your character, play style, etc.. Now there is an argument that what if your character doesn't have any options to approach one that spams? Then instead of the problem being that spamming is OP, it would simply just be a bad match up and by changing your character and reacting to your opponent, you could win easily.

While defensive play is really good in smash 4 there are things that you can do to defeat a defensive player. Players such as Fatality and Nairo are great examples of people who play aggressively and still have success on a tournament level.

 

With Diddy's side-b on top of the fact that his up-b if charged can recover from almost anywhere his recovery while not the best in the game is still really good. Diddy Kong as far as match ups go doesn't have any HARD counters (he still has characters that he slightly loses to but none that are unbeatable) and has a slight advantage if not better against most of the cast making his match up spread one of the best if not the best in the game. IMO while both Bayo and Sonic are top tier characters, I don't think they have better match up spreads then Diddy Kong. With that said I still think that Sheik is a better contender for the number one spot but definitely not characters like Sonic or Bayo.

Read the previous message I said. At top level play, diddy's up-B is easy to intercept.

Diddy has about 5 or 6 losing matchups, even if not by much, they are still losing matchups.

How can you say that he has a better match up spread than sonic or bayonetta? Give me one bad matchup for sonic other than megaman or lucario, and one bad matchup for bayonetta other than diddy kong. Even if you can, they only have about 3 losing matchups at worst, which is superior to diddy kong who you claim has a better match up spread.

A character like sheik has randomly even or close to even matchups with mid/low tiers like kirby and DK, and in my opinion as the metagame develops, people will find that characters with good killpower and a good combo game (i.e Mario, Lucario, Pikachu for the combo game part) have a larger advantage against her than previously thought. The fact that it's hard for her to kill is a HUGE issue, and people underestimate how much of an issue it is, even despite her amazing toolkit outside of her very few weaknesses.

 

I'd argue that Bayonetta's matchup spread is the best in the game, better than Sonic's. Lots of top level bayonetta's believe the diddy matchup is a slight advantage for diddy or even, and believe the rest are even or winning for bayonetta. There's even reason to believe bayonetta would be even with diddy, such as the fact that bananas are not too effective on bayonetta due to bayonetta's ability to witchtime it whenever she wants.

Your statement that "she can't be comparable to diddy due to her placement alone" is simply invalid, considering the fact that this tier list was made before nerfed bayonetta's potential was realised. Many players' results, Salem's and Pinkfresh's to name a few, have proven to be better than what this tier list implies.

Diddy's recovery is better than most overall, but nowhere near amazing. It might be close to amazing if diddy isn't sent at a bad downwards angle and/or has no double jump such that he is forced to use up-B, but there have been many circumstances in top level play where diddy is forced to use his up-B and a lot of the time it is either intercepted, it doesn't reach out of fear of interception, or it simply doesn't reach.

Diddy kong's main weakness isn't his recovery, but rather the fact that he is solely neutral based. This is why he gets shut down by characters like megaman and olimar (why didn't you include olimar in diddy's losing MUs?)

Anyway, it's likely that diddy loses too many matchups to be the BEST in the game, although he does very well against the rest of the cast outside of his losing matchups. Characters like sonic, bayonetta or even cloud are far more likely contenders.

I dont want you to get the wrong idea, im not saying youre wrong. And bayonetta is certainly climbing tiers faster than any other character.
Also olimar is not a losing MU imo. Pikmin are a relatively consistent counter to bananas, but i feel like youre focusing too much on bananas. Even if diddy didnt have the banana he would be top tier. His powerful frame data and zoning options (fair and bair omg) are ridiculous against many characters. Plus Diddy has some of the best kill confirms in the entire cast. Also, Diddy is indeed a very neutral orientated character, but thats a huge deal in smash 4 where winning the neutral can mean winning the entire game.
Diddy kong certainly has his losing MUs, but what makes his MU spread so amazing is the fact that he straight up dominates almost every character below top 20 or so (with a few exceptions). This differs from characters like Bayo and Cloud because they have less of a gap as you go down the tier list. And yeah I never said Diddy is the best, and frankly i dont think he is.

I also am very confident that Bayo is at least top 5.

And i never said Diddy's recovery is amazing. Its just really good. Keep in mind that Diddy's Up-B travels ridiculously far and fast, and clings to the ledge. The main drawback to his recovery is how vulnerable he is while using it, but a smart Diddy can consistently avoid edgeguards.

Cloud also has more negative MUs than Diddy, so theres that.


If i were to pick top 5 i would choose:
Rosalina
Sonic
Diddy
Bayo
Fox

Note: These are not ordered within the tier

Also you'll notice i left out Cloud and Sheik. Cloud because, although he is really powerful in the current meta, he is the only top tier character who is falling on the list. I expect that trend to continue. I left sheik out because she simply lacks reliable kill set ups. The best sheik in my region couldnt kill my diddy till over 220% on every stock of our set at a tournament i went to yesterday.

I think Diddy is a solid #4 or #5 in the upcoming meta.

Oh that's also not the reason Megaman beats diddy, diddy loses to Megaman simply because no other character can shut down banana and wall out diddy that well. Lemons clank with banana for christs sake.

As far as #1 in the game i see it most likely being Sonic or Fox. I would say Rosalina, but because of MUs like Meta Knight and Cloud i have trouble seeing it possible.


Finally, im a firm believer that smash 4 needs a larger Top and High tier. There is simply no justification for saying anybody below top 20 or so is markedly worse than the characters above them.

 

A very typical argument i see is "this character is better than we thought because of the new techs being discovered", notably olimar, link, DHD etc. However, every character in the game is steadily becoming stronger as the meta progresses. Only a few characters have been progressing at a faster rate (namely bayonetta, who people placed as low as 20th after the nerf).

Placing olimar at top 15 is a huge over statement, if anyone could honestly tell me that out of the 58 characters in smash 4, olimar is better than 43 of them, i would be appalled. People need to draw the line somewhere.

Maybe the answer is bigger tiers, maybe the game is more balanced than we thought. People are stuck in a melee/brawl mindset where only 5-10 characters are viable, and they try to apply that same thought process to smash 4. Thats why we see top players only use characters designated as "top tier", because, in their eyes, thats the only way to win; the best way to increase their chances. In reality, players like ZeRo could win using a mid tier character, if they put the same thousands of hours into it that they did with their top tier main.
I could see high tier being as many as 25 characters. I could see the game broken down into 4 tiers instead of the typical 5. Regardless, any character above bottom 10-15 is "viable" in my opinions.
And this post is just that, my opinion. And nothing else.

One final note. Smash 4 is a game that revolves around match up spreads. If you think a character like Roy is that amazing, try putting him up against a decent Rosa player. That MU is easily 30/70. When a character struggles so much against a common tournament character like Rosa, theres not much more that can even be said. The same can be said about nearly every mid/low tier character. You may think theyre underrated, or that they have techs that could seriously change their tier placement, but chances are theres a top tier character who can completely, utterly destroy them.

I don't know how often other characters apply their new tech found, but desync smashes which I mention in my post are a viable and effective method to punish most any move. I know for most imagining Olimar that good is unrealistic. I don't expect you to. I for one stand by what I said after playing strictly this character since the game launched.

 

And this post is just that, my opinion. And nothing else.

Stop. Just stop. You have the right to say what you want to say without having to decompose your entire argument for the sake of others' feelings. I don't know what's going on with this generation, but this has to stop. Don't be afraid to speak your mind, and if someone disagrees with you, let them. But don't go around kissing other people's ***** by shooting your own self in the foot (especially not the good one ).

I'd also like to add that saying this doesn't make you sound humble, it simply makes you sound like a kiss***.

Your opinion is important, so it's not "just" an opinion, and no, you're not always going to satisfy everyone, nor will you get everyone's respect, but at least respect yourself.

 

Stop. Just stop. You have the right to say what you want to say without having to decompose your entire argument for the sake of others' feelings. I don't know what's going on with this generation, but this has to stop. Don't be afraid to speak your mind, and if someone disagrees with you, let them. But don't go around kissing other people's ***** by shooting your own self in the foot (especially not the good one ).

I'd also like to add that saying this doesn't make you sound humble, it simply makes you sound like a kiss***.

Your opinion is important, so it's not "just" an opinion, and no, you're not always going to satisfy everyone, nor will you get everyone's respect, but at least respect yourself.

Actually, I think it's mostly just something that people say to stop an argument. It's basically a way of saying that this is where I stand, you can agree or disagree, but you won't change my opinion, or let's agree to disagree.

 

I mostly said that to show im not close minded enough to think my opinions are gods own truth. Im very confident in my opinions, however. Thanks though for the support (i guess?)

 

A lot of characters are put in lower tiers due to poor representation in high level play. If your favorite character is in the bottom rung, this is likely the main reason. By no means does that mean the character is bad, it just means that the character is untested.

 

Hey y'all, it's the end of January 2017 :v