4BR Tier List v2.0 Followup


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Last month, the 4BR released their second official tier list for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U:

(Image by @shrooby)

After in-house discussion from 4BR members and some common outside opinions opening up, we'd like to address some frequently asked questions and talk a bit more about results.

Frequently Asked Questions

Why is Top Tier much larger than its previous iteration, which contained 3 characters?

v1.0 featured a meta that had a more restricted set of characters winning tournaments, with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus being the two big winners. However, as the last 6 months have shown, more characters have been seen as a powerful threat and capable of taking national level or higher tournaments, as many of the voters reflected by containing more characters in their highest tier (and very few votes that had one or two characters at the top).

Why were Miis an addendum?

As of late, Miis have remained a heavily controversial element of Smash 4. Players, figures and tournament organizers in the Smash 4 community have yet to come to a real consensus on how to handle these characters due to their unique nature of creation.

We decided to make the Miis an addendum, not only taking into consideration the two most common Mii rulings (1111 Guest Size, and XXXX Guest Size), but also giving the option to abstain. The reasoning behind this was not only to respect the fact that not all regions share the same ruleset, but that many regions simply just aren't sure how to handle the characters altogether.

Why is X character considered Low Tier?

As stated in the initial release, the 4BR Leaders decided upon using an average group ranking with concurrent votes - tiers, or groups of characters, and the order of characters within them. The score range for groups came to about a 1-10 scoring range (1.72 - 9.88), and the team decided to work with 5 "general" tiers, and 9 tiers total (with bottom tiers being merged together).

After these were split into 5, it meant that any characters that were caught in the score of 4.33 or less (starting with Mr. Game & Watch) would be considered a low tier or bottom tier. Despite the fact that some of these characters, such as Palutena, can defeat top players in the right hands, many of these characters simply have large flaws without the draws of higher tiered characters. In the end, there will always be characters that will simply place lower than others, even if they have some potential.

When will the next version of the Tier List (v3.0) release?

We are currently targeting a January 2017 release for v3.0.

Regional Differences

Standard deviations varied, as seen by the data, but the consensus for characters at the top and characters near the bottom were generally more consistent.

Shaya Shaya compiled the votes among our Japanese voters, and our European, Australian and South American voters. Keep in mind that there was a limited number of both sets of voters; this makes the numbers more indicative of trends rather than sweeping statements.


Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group)
Cloud | 0.67 | 1.106 | 10.0 | 0.0
Sonic | 1.83 | 1.067 | 10.0 | 0.0
Diddy Kong | 2.33 | 1.374 | 9.76 | 0.532
Rosalina | 2.83 | 1.572 | 10.0 | 0.0
Bayonetta | 5.5 | 3.149 | 9.25 | 0.758
Mario | 5.67 | 2.809 | 8.58 | 0.677
Sheik | 6.83 | 3.532 | 8.64 | 0.993
Mewtwo | 7.33 | 1.886 | 8.5 | 0.768
Zero Suit Samus | 8.0 | 1.291 | 8.16 | 0.378
Fox | 8.83 | 3.184 | 8.16 | 0.378
Ryu | 11.83 | 6.012 | 8.26 | 0.915
Mega Man | 12.67 | 6.316 | 7.55 | 0.955
Pit | 14.83 | 4.67 | 7.55 | 0.955
Pikachu | 15.33 | 3.145 | 7.02 | 0.823
Toon Link | 17.17 | 3.891 | 7.35 | 0.744
Villager | 17.5 | 6.449 | 7.08 | 0.628
Corrin | 17.6 | 6.344 | 6.44 | 1.172
Lucario | 18.0 | 6.683 | 6.94 | 1.14
Captain Falcon | 19.33 | 4.955 | 6.84 | 0.804
Meta Knight | 19.67 | 7.909 | 6.94 | 1.14
Greninja | 20.0 | 3.651 | 7.08 | 0.628
Ness | 21.67 | 6.289 | 6.66 | 0.953
Lucas | 22.5 | 5.909 | 6.5 | 0.653
Olimar | 23.0 | 5.627 | 6.74 | 0.578
Dark Pit | 23.67 | 9.268 | 6.42 | 0.981
Marth | 26.0 | 5.0 | 6.09 | 0.681
Yoshi | 26.0 | 5.26 | 6.09 | 0.681
Peach | 27.33 | 6.368 | 5.81 | 0.727
Duck Hunt Dog | 27.4 | 7.658 | 6.03 | 1.069
Donkey Kong | 28.67 | 3.636 | 5.99 | 0.754
Bowser | 28.67 | 4.346 | 5.57 | 0.421
Lucina | 30.17 | 3.76 | 5.57 | 0.421
R.O.B. | 30.33 | 6.498 | 5.67 | 1.496
Link | 31.33 | 11.441 | 5.69 | 1.235
Wario | 34.17 | 5.241 | 4.92 | 1.24
Mr. Game & Watch | 34.17 | 7.988 | 4.49 | 1.401
Shulk | 34.83 | 6.388 | 4.88 | 1.412
Samus | 34.83 | 6.466 | 4.71 | 0.938
Pac-Man | 35.83 | 3.484 | 5.33 | 0.626
Ike | 36.67 | 6.316 | 4.15 | 0.495
Luigi | 37.17 | 4.18 | 5.0 | 0.71
Robin | 39.33 | 3.771 | 4.15 | 0.495
Bowser Jr. | 39.5 | 8.958 | 4.05 | 1.337
Palutena | 39.83 | 7.29 | 3.58 | 1.524
Little Mac | 44.17 | 2.478 | 3.4 | 0.885
Mii Gunner | 45.6 | 6.621 | 3.24 | 1.103
Charizard | 45.83 | 3.578 | 3.16 | 0.804
Dr. Mario | 47.17 | 6.012 | 3.03 | 1.474
Falco | 47.33 | 3.35 | 2.83 | 0.802
Roy | 49.0 | 2.887 | 2.31 | 0.942
King Dedede | 49.33 | 2.211 | 2.65 | 1.111
Wii Fit Trainer | 49.5 | 2.217 | 2.65 | 0.744
Mii Brawler | 49.8 | 4.578 | 2.67 | 1.153
Kirby | 49.83 | 3.76 | 2.65 | 0.744
Ganondorf | 51.5 | 4.349 | 2.31 | 0.942
Zelda | 53.0 | 3.055 | 2.08 | 0.481
Jigglypuff | 54.5 | 2.141 | 2.08 | 0.481
Mii Swordsman | 55.4 | 1.497 | 1.87 | 0.405


Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group)
Diddy Kong | 1.54 | 2.024 | 9.8 | 0.462
Sheik | 1.85 | 2.445 | 9.78 | 0.515
Cloud | 3.23 | 2.081 | 9.6 | 0.599
Rosalina | 3.31 | 1.682 | 9.37 | 0.685
Mario | 4.31 | 2.162 | 9.47 | 0.68
Sonic | 4.92 | 2.702 | 9.28 | 0.67
Fox | 5.54 | 1.906 | 9.06 | 0.641
Zero Suit Samus | 7.46 | 1.781 | 8.65 | 0.509
Mewtwo | 7.85 | 3.348 | 8.74 | 0.387
Ryu | 8.31 | 3.75 | 8.63 | 0.757
Bayonetta | 9.85 | 4.383 | 8.54 | 1.024
Pikachu | 13.46 | 3.388 | 7.6 | 0.882
Meta Knight | 14.85 | 5.855 | 7.53 | 0.804
Villager | 15.0 | 3.464 | 7.36 | 0.478
Ness | 15.15 | 2.957 | 7.4 | 0.75
Mega Man | 16.23 | 5.78 | 7.26 | 0.622
Toon Link | 16.85 | 3.301 | 7.19 | 0.529
Marth | 17.54 | 6.046 | 7.3 | 0.643
Greninja | 18.08 | 5.385 | 7.06 | 0.918
Corrin | 19.31 | 4.444 | 7.16 | 0.696
Lucario | 20.31 | 6.043 | 6.56 | 0.767
Captain Falcon | 21.85 | 4.538 | 6.68 | 0.477
Donkey Kong | 23.54 | 4.749 | 6.34 | 0.661
R.O.B. | 24.31 | 4.889 | 6.14 | 0.811
Pit | 25.31 | 4.357 | 6.03 | 0.764
Yoshi | 25.69 | 4.746 | 6.36 | 0.727
Dark Pit | 25.85 | 4.737 | 6.03 | 0.764
Luigi | 26.31 | 6.741 | 5.9 | 1.186
Peach | 26.62 | 7.022 | 5.98 | 1.048
Bowser | 29.92 | 6.65 | 5.33 | 0.968
Lucina | 31.31 | 7.936 | 5.34 | 1.102
Lucas | 31.46 | 3.319 | 5.44 | 0.735
Robin | 32.77 | 5.423 | 5.22 | 0.782
Ike | 32.92 | 6.318 | 5.14 | 0.702
Wario | 33.46 | 3.177 | 5.19 | 0.617
Olimar | 33.46 | 8.915 | 5.22 | 1.216
Little Mac | 36.31 | 7.549 | 4.67 | 0.929
Mr. Game & Watch | 36.85 | 6.15 | 4.77 | 1.008
Link | 37.77 | 7.617 | 4.47 | 1.259
Palutena | 38.54 | 4.846 | 4.43 | 0.791
Duck Hunt Dog | 38.85 | 4.974 | 4.39 | 0.898
Pac-Man | 39.15 | 6.274 | 4.16 | 1.127
Kirby | 42.46 | 3.875 | 3.88 | 0.774
Wii Fit Trainer | 42.54 | 5.198 | 4.06 | 0.606
Samus | 43.54 | 6.246 | 3.66 | 1.552
Roy | 44.62 | 4.306 | 3.53 | 0.778
Shulk | 45.92 | 3.222 | 3.45 | 0.671
Bowser Jr. | 46.38 | 2.843 | 3.15 | 0.879
Falco | 46.38 | 4.234 | 3.01 | 1.142
Dr. Mario | 46.54 | 3.855 | 3.25 | 0.667
King Dedede | 47.69 | 6.169 | 3.03 | 1.504
Charizard | 49.0 | 2.542 | 2.9 | 0.963
Mii Brawler | 49.0 | 11.328 | 2.49 | 1.694
Mii Gunner | 51.67 | 5.935 | 2.04 | 1.1
Zelda | 52.15 | 1.833 | 1.87 | 0.598
Mii Swordsman | 52.5 | 5.708 | 1.83 | 1.111
Ganondorf | 52.92 | 0.997 | 1.78 | 0.639
Jigglypuff | 54.54 | 1.216 | 1.56 | 0.449

For additional reference, here is the raw voting data from all voters.


Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

Notable Characters Analysis

Much like the previous vote, there was a handful of characters whose personal positions on the tier list were heavily debated and contested, as well as some notable placements on the tier list that deserve a mention.

:4link:
This time around, Link was, according to raw voting data, the most controversial character between voters. A lot of this honestly came up due to the fact that many of Link's huge results came after the voting period, though that's not to say that T has carried the sole weight. He appeared in both high, mid, and low tier in many votes, making him quite the perplexity. However, come v3.0, if Link continues his streak, he will likely move up, with some top players thinking that he might even be a high tier.

:4olimar:
Olimar walked away with the second highest standard deviation. With his representation being rather sparse, and having a smaller pool of character experts, it is not much of a surprise that he ended up with this much diversity in rankings.

@Myran, 4BR member and widely recognized as one of the best Olimars in the world, has provided a write-up regarding Olimar and his current place in the meta:
So Olimar is a character that most players including some Olimar players consider bad. His results aren't as strong as other characters, but I think that's due to other circumstances as opposed to the characters flaws. Most top Olimar's including myself don't travel out of their states that often. For various reasons, mine being money, this means he doesn't get very strong displays often. He's not perfect, but he's top 15 imo, and easily high tier. I do generally well in FL almost always landing top 8 at the big tournaments here, and have been for awhile. I know Shuton does very well in Japan even making top 3 at some of the stacked ones. There's some other good placings, but I don't know them all.

What I think really holds Olimar back in many players eyes is that they either have interactions with him that skew their perspective and make them thing oh he's not good. (Looking at the regions with Olimar players who may not be as strong) Information regarding him that has circulated, but is only a part of his overall character. The information I'm talking about is how Pikmin clank. Yes they are considered projectiles. However, they have some interesting properties that allow them to circumvent the issue of clanking when performed right. To add to this they're some of the best projectiles in the game only really losing to ones that can't be stopped. Examples being Thoron, fully charged Water Shuriken, and ROB Laser.

So let me break down some of the techniques and things Olimar can do to circumvent his largest issue, the clanking. There's something that I coined a "desync smash". This happens when Olimar is moving and starts a smash after the movement. So if he's running and does an up-smash or a pivot fsmash, or if he's falling and lands with a smash (Usually dsmash) it can trigger it. What happens is if the opponent throws out and attack it can catch the Pikmin during the start of the smash before it's hitbox comes out, it's hurtbox is out because it has been desynced by the smash. By the opponent throwing out an attack it locks the Pikmins position in place (This means the Pikmin will smash from where it was as opposed to where Olimar is currently), and finishes the smash. (Once a smash is started it can't be stopped or killed during the attack) Since the opponents attack hit the Pikmin before the smash hitbox came out the opponent is stuck there in the animation. This allows the smash to commence uninterrupted hitting them. I've punished some of the best moves in the game with this, True Shoryuken being one of them. It does sound situational, but with continued practice I'm getting better and better at making it happen. Since it's really just awareness and positioning it's a viable tool to punish attacks you cannot normally. On a smaller not you can do this technique to a similar extent without desyncing the position. Whenever a smash is being charged the Pikmin sits their with it's hurtbox active, this means when spaced right it can soak hits then release hitting the opponent. It's how Olimar can punish things like Shuttle Loop, Mario Up-B, Shoryuken, and more under the ledge when they have hitboxes. Actually if the moves trade at the right time Olimar may even be hit, but the smash will still hit them since their move hit something. This is just one of the tools Olimar has to work around his weaknesses.

Another big advantage he can gain is lagging his opponents hitbox's with his Pikmin. This can backfire at times, but I'd say a solid 90% of the time it's allowed me to punish moves I couldn't normally. It's also allowed me to dodge ones I shouldn't have been able too. This is an extremely important use of the Pikmin, and is again something I feel more Olimar players should put into practice.

He can pressure extremely well with the proper lineup. Having two to three purples can allow him to pressure shield better than most if not all characters in the game imo. Retreating purple bair is safe on shield, and when coupled with purple side-b before hand it can allow for strong pressure. His smashes are also notorious for poking shields. (I hear this complaint from players to often to ignore it) His dsmash can break shield when up close since both Pikmin can hit shield, and with a red and purple or two purples it's not hard to take it from 100% to 0%. His nair is a great way to snub out the approaching opponents move since it's a nice long multihit.

His defensive options also help him reduce the issue of being juggled somewhat easily. He has whistle which has super armor frames 6-12 and very little lag allowing you to tank a hit, and then punish most of the opponents moves. B-Reverse Pikmin Pluck allows him to switch his momentum and direction similar to what whistle did in Brawl. His up-b can be used as a third jump and immediately canceled into an aerial if need be. (It can also get out of combos and multihits often). He's hard to gimp since his recovery covers so much distance, and he can chuck purples towards you to put of some hitboxes while he recovers.

What I'm getting at is that he has strong tools to combat the opponent, and he can be the aggressor with the proper lineup. The biggest thing holding him back is how unforgiving he is to play. He requires more than just managing Pikmin, his spacings and timings have to be very precise most of the time. Unlike most characters, being off makes you just outright lose the transaction or have a Pikmin do a standard desync. (Most desyncs can be worked around with proper spacing and awareness) It's a work in progress from me and other top Olimars. I think once we start attending more it'll make him look better to most, but for the time people are seeing what is a work in progress. He doesn't have amazing confirms like ZSS, Ryu, or others. He has some, and they're strong, just not as over-centralizing as theirs. I'm one to look at Olimar's abilities when people can actually put his tools into proper use. I've had days where I felt I could take any character in the game no problems just by using his tools properly. So if people wanna tell me why they feel he's mid tier or worse I'd love to hear it. I don't think saying results really does it justice, because in the states where he's present he usually does well. He just doesn't get to attend nationals that often.
:4lucina:
Much of Lucina's controversy came from the distance between her and Marth in the tier list, mainly from whether or not she and Marth should be grouped together. Ultimately, the 4BR decided that the differences between these characters are enough to not warrant a merge and so she was ranked differently from Marth. Even so, Lucina jumped up 13 spots due to her buffs alongside the Hero-King (who jumped up 23 spots).

One of the big issues behind the character is where exactly her shortcomings place her compared to Marth. She generally has a big lack of results, which often only adds to the question as well.

M@v M@v , Fox and Lucina player from the 4BR, gave a good analysis on the big differences between Marth and Lucina, and how it affects the gap between the two characters:
The below quote was edited after release to rectify errors.
Lucina's placement compared to Marth is an issue that is brought up quite often, and it is again the case with the new tier list. Why is Lucina, a character that is almost identical to Marth, not right next to him/tied with him on the tier list? Before we dive into this with more detail, let's start off by pointing out in earlier patches, Marth and Lucina were indeed much closer to eachother. But overtime, the list of buffs they received helped Marth more in the longrun than Lucina. This is in addition to the inherent advantages the tipper mechanic has in many situations. Let's break it down:

Let me preface by briefly covering how their swords work.
Lucina does not have a tipper, but her sword does what is approximately inbetween a marth tipper and non tipper in terms of damage and knockback along the entire blade (I can hunt the exact stats later; pretty sure they are in the Marcina boards). This brings up the fact that Lucina gets more damage out any attack that is not tippered compared to Marth. For a good while, this was the cornerstone of the pro Lucina argument: Unless you were perfect, Lucina could potentially be more beneficial in the longrun since you will not be landing every single attack as a tipper, no matter how good you are as a player.

With that aside, lets dive in.

First, the patch changes that affected Marth and Lucina. There were multiple patch changes that affected them roughly the same (IE slight % increases in damage here and there), but there were two patch changes in particular that helped Marth especially.

The big one: The shield stun changes.
When the patch rolled around that introduced increased shield stun (I need to go back and double check which one), this had a massive impact on Marth. Tippers induce a lot more shield stun on an opponent. The result of this is that Marth can be much safer than Lucina when attacking a shielding opponent. With proper spacing, his tippers moves can be much harder for a shielding opponent to punish. Having this huge safety advantage over Lucina pays massive dividends, especially when having to face down top tier characters where a couple frames can mean the difference between being safe and being punished.

All of Marth and Lucina's A moves follow the same principle for the most part: Marth's will be better if spaced, Lucina's will be superior if not. Marth can gain some better combos though by hitting with untippered moves, which will lead into tippered follow ups easier.

Their grabs and throws are exactly identical. Both do the same things at the same %s

Their Special moves is where it has been argued Lucina has an advantage. But does she really? Depends.

(B) Shield breaker: Although Lucina's is still a powerful move, Marth's give the strongest chance to break shield while charging the least amount of time due to tippers. Both have stock ending potential though.

(Side B) Dancing blade: In general, Lucina's is much more reliable in terms of KO potential. The last hit of Lucina's side b is pretty strong and can end stocks at decent percents. That being said, Marth's can tipper more often than people realize. Following an opponents DI and ending it with a side direction or up direction attack pending their DI can net you a tipper quite often, as well as just bad DI from an opponent. As you can imagine, this can net super early kills.

(up B) Dolphin slash: are the same.

(down b) counter: are the same.

Lucina also has a fatal flaw in her design. In most matchups, despite having the ability to do consistent damage anywhere on the blade, she has to play the spacing game anyway to be the safest. So essentially, so has to play like marth and go for tippers to remain as safe as possible anyway. In these situations, you are being directly gimped by not being Marth in a matchup where you have to play like Marth. A straight downgrade.

Last but not least, results. This section speaks for itself. Marth has much better and consistent results in the current meta. Players my Mr.E and Pugwest have put up solid results with Marth, top 16ing major events. Meanwhile, Lucina is nowhere to be seen in those higher placings.
:4lucas:
Lucas remained one of the more contested characters in terms of raw standard deviation results for v2.0. A handful of votes, notably Midwest opinions, seemed to think rather low of his abilities, generally considering him an inferior Ness who is overall overshadowed by him. Compared to the first tier list, more players have picked him up - however, his current placing is 33rd, just 3 places above his Tier List v1.0 placement.

4BR member @Luco, currently ranked #4 in Australia, gave his own take on Lucas and his current place on the Tier List:
Lucas has had a strange ride to where he's seen in the current meta today. His initital release saw muddied opinions of him as people still clung to him as the inferior Ness; gladly this trend fell off over time and people begun to realise Lucas was his own unique character with his own unique competitive playstyle. That playstyle wasn't immediately clear however - Lucas proved to be a difficult character to use, which may have contributed to his lack of results immediately post-release: People focused too much on playing him as either hyper aggressive or hyper defensive, both of which have some merit but ultimately Lucas fell into a counter-poking archetype, and this appears to be - for now - where his greatest strength lies, in forcing an opponent's approach (which he does in the vast majority of match-ups), then punishing that approach with a wide array of highly safe boxing moves (aerials, specials, Zair, jabs, tilts). This is an obvious contrast to the zone-breaking, grappler playstyle of Ness, and yet many use both PSI kids as secondaries or dual mains.

Lucas, it was predicted by many, would rise to join the ranks of the upper tiers, but no-one really knew where or when that shift would begin. For a long time Lucas' results were heavily carried by Taiheta in Japan with not much else to show for him but more recently we've seen notable wins or results from Kodystri (previously known as Xanos), Mekos, PK Blueberry, Jebb, Hakii, Cheezeballer and more, as well as a positively-trending usage of Lucas with bastions of high-level mains worldwide. Taiheta's performance at EVO rings as a notable stand-out and yet much of Lucas' recent work came at a time where many back-room members were inactive or had already submitted their votes. Additionally, it's still hard to place Lucas based off results alone, and while he appears to have strong MU niches vs high tiers such as Ryu, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mario and Ness (he doesn't necessarily win all of these of course), he also has questionable match-ups with characters such as Diddy Kong, Cloud and Greninja.

This I feel has contributed to his current placing at #33 on the current tier list. However with results continuing to trend positively for Lucas and a growing set of mains appearing globally, Lucas' option-rich playstyle is sure to yield more benefits and he is currently looking brightly towards the future.
:4darkpit:
Dark Pit's standard deviation isn't really what landed him here; it's moreso the fact that, unlike v1.0, he's not next to Pit. The primary reasoning behind this comes from regional differences; Japan believes him to be a much more inferior character to Pit because of poor arrow control, with many Japanese players ranking him multiple tiers lower than his light counterpart. While he was 2 spots next to Pit in the final tier list, Japan's votes placed him 12 spots below Pit.

When it was balanced out with the other votes, Dark Pit was a little over a point behind Pit in the ordered average, and Donkey Kong and Peach filled the gaps.

:4cloud:
Perhaps the most intriguing position of all comes from Cloud, ranked #2 on the tier list. While Cloud is noted to have lacked the results during the Summer of Smash (with Mew2King often dropping out to focus on Melee, and Tweek, Komorikiri and more having some results that may not reflect the status of a #2 character), he has stayed relevant at many levels of play. Despite his underwhelming performance in the US, Japan ranked him as #1 with their voters. As of late, more counterplay has been developed to handle this character. While he might stay dominant in doubles, it's likely that he might fall a few places in the list come v3.0 unless a cloudy resurgence arrives.

:4mewtwo:
Mewtwo made quite the impression in 6 months. After being outright blessed by multiple balance patches, Abadango went on to win Pound 2016, giving many players an impression that he was a top threat. And, as it's been seen, more and more players are picking him up, but he hasn't seen much in terms of massive wins beyond Pound as of yet. That didn't stop him from advancing 27 spots compared to v1.0, landing him in the bottom of Top Tier next to Bayonetta.

Conclusion

We hope these explanations have shed some light on to how the release of this list was conducted and some of the more controversial aspects of the list. With the meta of Smash 4 fleshing out and more characters having their true strengths being shown, there is still much to see from this game, patches or no patches. As always, we'll be looking forward to your thoughts in the comments below.

A special thank you to Shaya Shaya for providing data, and @Popi, @A10theHero and Diosdi Diosdi for assisting with the release of this writeup. Translation provided by Diosdi.
 
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Gunla

Comments

Any controversies with :4feroy: and :4falco:? Since they both are on they very bottom of the low rank for some reason.
 
Marth and Lucina's counter is exactly the same, just saying. You can't use that as evidence as to why Marth is better lol

A 17 place gap between Lucina and Marth is still inexcusable, hopefully this is fixed next tier list.
 
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I feel Lucina should be ranked right next to Marth since a lot of the top Marth players I've looked into said you should play both for certain situations. I do agree with Diddy being the best in the game despite Zero's placement of him. I think due to certain events that both Robin and Palutena deserve to be a bit higher on the tier list, but I feel overall this is a fairly solid list. I feel characters with potential like Lucario and Ryu for example are placed relatively fair since their haven't been to many Lucario and Ryu's at top 8 at major events, but theirs defiantly a lot of potential for change moving forward from this list.
 
Marth's Counter is better because of tipper?
Lucina's DS is better because... yeah?
They are the same move.
They do not have a tipper. Neither of them.

What is next, are you gonna come up to me and say that "Marth has better range than Lucina" with a straight face?
These are the people that made our tier list. Remember that.
 
D
I'm surprised :4shulk: was not mentioned. He dropped on this list (from 40 to 44) compared to the first list despite gaining far better results since then. I def wouldn't say he's worse than the likes of :4duckhunt::4kirby::4pacman:.
 
Marth's Counter is better because of tipper?
Lucina's DS is better because... yeah?
They are the same move.
They do not have a tipper. Neither of them.

What is next, are you gonna come up to me and say that "Marth has better range than Lucina" with a straight face?
These are the people that made our tier list. Remember that.
Sometimes things slip through in a way I regret, especially considering I've been involved with Marcina since release and knew immediately these things were off.

A lot of common train of thought of people who place the two very far apart is one where she is redundant (it's a bias that's waning overtime) or a reflection of her significantly worse tournament results for people leaning that way; not a "this is how much worse she is than Marth".

Most people on average know how both characters differ and stay the same.
 
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These are the people that made our tier list. Remember that.
I would recommend not generalizing. As you can see, this is the opinion of only one person, and the TL was done and voted by many, many people, including top players and people with other opinions and knowledge
 
Marth and Lucina's counter is exactly the same, just saying. You can't use that as evidence as to why Marth is better lol

A 17 place gap between Lucina and Marth is still inexcusable, hopefully this is fixed next tier list.
But they didnt. They stated that both counters are the same.
 
This should've released as soon as the tier list was released too. Now it's explained all characters that i was personally against on this list, specially Link and Lucas. Which honestly doesnt make sense, if Japan already HAS good results with them with a top level play, it's already proven that they're actually good, instead only focusing on USA tournaments where nobody uses them. That's why early tier lists shouldn't be trusted imo and that's why Mega Man had a huge climb because everybody witnessed Kamemushi's. I can see even Duck hunt potentially climbing in the future.
 
This should've released as soon as the tier list was released too. Now it's explained all characters that i was personally against on this list, specially Link and Lucas. Which honestly doesnt make sense, if Japan already HAS good results with them with a top level play, it's already proven that they're actually good, instead only focusing on USA tournaments where nobody uses them. That's why early tier lists shouldn't be trusted imo and that's why Mega Man had a huge climb because everybody witnessed Kamemushi's. I can see even Duck hunt potentially climbing in the future.
If we go by this logic, then Kirby and ROB are top tiers because in Venezuela there are very good players of each char that win tournaments, or Olimar should be as well because in Spain, Greward uses him to counter Bayo, or why not villager? Panama has a pretty good villager (which was recently mentioned in an ESAM video, his name is Colgate). Then als Jr should be a top tier because P. Ramen defeated ZeRo with Jr.

That is why votings are so big, because it requires a big amount of opinions to make an assertive consensus. If the majority thinks link is not that good, then the average of votings will show the most accurate approximate, and the standard deviation will show how much of an aggreement there really is

I truly believe early TLs should be taken with a grain of salt, but if general consensus directs to a point, then that shall be reflected in the data. If Link really is THAT good, then, as said in the article, he shall make the eap he deserves (i actually think Link is pretty good)
 
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I can't see Link as a high tier but it's great to see his progress being recognized.

There's no perfect way to determine a tier list but having several experienced people all vote is a good method.
 
Can't wait until people finally realize Lucina is just as good as Marth. Other than that, I don't like the reasoning around Pit v Dark Pit. They're the same character to me, just like Marth and Lucina (basically). I don't know why the Japanese players rank Dark Pit that much lower when EVERYTHING else is the same. Is one slightly worse move really that big of a difference?
 
What is next, are you gonna come up to me and say that "Marth has better range than Lucina" with a straight face?
Once my capture card is here, I can provide solid proof that Marth at least has the tiniest bit more range than Lucina.

An easy example you can try yourself: Go to training, and pick Ryu as the opponent, and head to Dreamland. Stand him on one of the lower platforms and have him roll to completely one side (lets say left), and have Lucina roll to the other (right), then, using Smash stick for consistency and reliability, use an Fsmash. Lucina will not be able to hit Ryu with her Fsmash. If you want to, you can even make Ryu hold a small item like a PokeBall to prevent him from moving about.

Now do the same with Marth. Marth can tipper his Fsmash. The mere difference is extremely small, but this helps prove Marth has more range.

I am pretty sure you can do the same with their Up Tilt's on the top platform by reaching it from one of the lower platforms (if it's not on this stage, it's on another, and I'll let you know when I remember).

Once I am able to, I will show you.

But that aside, the range increase Marth has is still incredibly minor, and it's not really something you can use to argue which character should be better/who you should be using. The gap between them is still too large in my opinion.
 
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Once my capture card is here, I can provide solid proof that Marth at least has the tiniest bit more range than Lucina.

An easy example you can try yourself: Go to training, and pick Ryu as the opponent, and head to Dreamland. Stand him on one of the lower platforms and have him roll to completely one side (lets say left), and have Lucina roll to the other (right), then, using Smash stick for consistency and reliability, use an Fsmash. Lucina will not be able to hit Ryu with her Fsmash. If you want to, you can even make Ryu hold a small item like a PokeBall to prevent him from moving about.

Now do the same with Marth. Marth can tipper his Fsmash. The mere difference is extremely small, but this helps prove Marth has more range.

I am pretty sure you can do the same with their Up Tilt's on the top platform by reaching it from one of the lower platforms (if it's not on this stage, it's on another, and I'll let you know when I remember).

Once I am able to, I will show you.

But that aside, the range increase Marth has is still incredibly minor, and it's not really something you can use to argue which character should be better/who you should be using. The gap between them is still too large in my opinion.
https://twitter.com/TeslaSkarfelt/status/751020154398605312
Just look at this
 
That's neat.

However, go and test the method I mentioned in my first post, then come back. What I say is certainly true.

That image makes me question the program used anyway. In the images, Lucina and Marth are the same size, when in game, you can clearly see that Marth is slightly taller. Why are they suddenly the same size in the program?
 
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That's neat.

However, go and test the method I mentioned in my first post, then come back. It's certainly true.
I'm sure it is true. I have no doubt. As a Marcina duel main, three pixels of range doesn't tip the scale for me. The reward Lucina gets against Rushdowns is too great for me to care about the three pixels. As a duel main, I can say, it really doesn't make a difference in battle. Sure, he does have 3 more pixels of range, but I would argue that it isn't a small consideration. It doesnt not affect whom I will pick in the slightest. Zero; not at all; no consideration.
 
I'm sure it is true. I have no doubt. As a Marcina duel main, three pixels of range doesn't tip the scale for me. The reward Lucina gets against Rushdowns is too great for me to care about the three pixels. As a duel main, I can say, it really doesn't make a difference in battle. Sure, he does have 3 more pixels of range, but I would argue that it isn't a small consideration. It doesnt not affect whom I will pick in the slightest. Zero; not at all; no consideration.
As I mentioned in my first post, the small range increase isn't a huge deal anyway. My point was just to help confirm that it is indeed there. We good.
 
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Once my capture card is here, I can provide solid proof that Marth at least has the tiniest bit more range than Lucina.

An easy example you can try yourself: Go to training, and pick Ryu as the opponent, and head to Dreamland. Stand him on one of the lower platforms and have him roll to completely one side (lets say left), and have Lucina roll to the other (right), then, using Smash stick for consistency and reliability, use an Fsmash. Lucina will not be able to hit Ryu with her Fsmash. If you want to, you can even make Ryu hold a small item like a PokeBall to prevent him from moving about.

Now do the same with Marth. Marth can tipper his Fsmash. The mere difference is extremely small, but this helps prove Marth has more range.

I am pretty sure you can do the same with their Up Tilt's on the top platform by reaching it from one of the lower platforms (if it's not on this stage, it's on another, and I'll let you know when I remember).

Once I am able to, I will show you.

But that aside, the range increase Marth has is still incredibly minor, and it's not really something you can use to argue which character should be better/who you should be using. The gap between them is still too large in my opinion.
Im not sure if this will help, but there are some comparisons between the 2 here: https://twitter.com/Lucina_Memo . You have to scroll down a bit tho.
 
Im not sure if this will help, but there are some comparisons between the 2 here: https://twitter.com/Lucina_Memo . You have to scroll down a bit tho.
This is exactly what I am on about; Marth is bigger than Lucina, so it makes sense for his range to be slightly longer, even if it is almost unnoticeable at the best of times.

A few good examples I saw:

- https://twitter.com/Lucina_Memo/status/780641823660253184
- https://twitter.com/Lucina_Memo/status/780408486513352704 (shows how Marth being taller effects his ledge grab, extremely situational, but proof nonetheless)
- https://twitter.com/Lucina_Memo/status/780626724870430723 (I will also point out this difference is not just more than "3 pixels")
- https://twitter.com/Lucina_Memo/status/779992556885057537 (this is one for Lucina's favour, being shorter allows her Jab to hit essentially Bayonetta's booty while crouching, when Marth is just missing her. Another situational one, but this essentially proves his height makes a difference to his range).

I want to know why then, Marth and Lucina are the same size in those Nair hitbox visualisation images then, because they are not the same size.
 
thank you. I really feel like roy should be higher, as well as corrin. I don't know about falco, though, as i don't play him
No tier list is perfect. But i feel those 3 are about where they should be imo. Lucina though...

EDIT
Well, Corrin and Marth could both move up a few spots
 
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I'm sure Duck Hunt will raise over time. You3yn is putting in work and from what I saw Duck Hunt is capable of makes me think he'll climb up over time. Duck Hunt has a lot of neat setups and I think if DH mains master all of these(and maybe even discover more), Duck Hunt will be a bigger threat. He's a pretty technical character so it's not surprising that DH may not be at his peak yet.

Also I think Myran is right. Olimar still has potential. Shuton currently puts in a lot of work in Japan too by placing high and winning some tournaments. I also I think it takes some time until we can clearly say where Olimar stands. If I got Myran's point right, he also says that some Olimar players aren't that strong in their regions and therefore may give a false impression on the character. (if i got it wrong, correct me please) While this may be the case, Olimar players also benefit from the fact that many people still don't know how to play the MU. So I think this also explains a controversial opinion on Olimar.
 
Honestly I can't believe Dabuz considers Olimar is be so bad.
He's got plenty of positives that in my opinion outweigh the negatives.
It's just gonna take time for someone to truly master him to bring him into Top 25 where he belongs.
He's lightweight and fails in every category of movement except for Air Acceleration.
And succeeds at EVERYTHING else.
Damage Output, Grab game, Kill power (Especially Purple) , recovery. All stellar
 
When will the next version of the Tier List (v3.0) release?

We are currently targeting a January 2017 release for v3.0.


4BR not managed by nintendo confirmed.

PS: thank you for that answer :)
 
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As a side note, I dont think any fire emblem character is bad. At worst they are mid tier; at best top 15. Although I do think Marth is noticeably better than Lucina, I think Lucina is only roughly 1 tier below him, 2 at the very most. The overall tier list didn't reflect that as it was a combination of everyone's votes, but that's my personal opinion on the matter.

P.S. Every fire emblem character is viable imo, either solo or with 1 secondary. Yes, even Roy. I most certainly feel he's not 6th worst in the game >.<'
 
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D
As a side note, I dont think any fire emblem character is bad. At worst they are mid tier; at best top 15. Although I do think Marth is noticeably better than Lucina, I think Lucina is only roughly 1 tier below him, 2 at the very most. The overall tier list didn't reflect that as it was a combination of everyone's votes, but that's my personal opinion on the matter.

P.S. Every fire emblem character is viable imo, either solo or with 1 secondary. Yes, even Roy. I most certainly feel he's not 6th worst in the game >.<'
Roy isn't 6th worst in the game but he is low tier in my opinion. He's not bad but moreso just outclassed.
 
No tier list is perfect. But i feel those 3 are about where they should be imo. Lucina though...

EDIT
Well, Corrin and Marth could both move up a few spots
I'm cool with that, so long as Marth isn't freakin better than Corrin, I'm good. I also notice that damn, not even this article can escape the bajillion rants that Roy is "so bad". I mean him being almost bottom tier is bad, but it still makes sense to keep him at low tier... his endgame is meh.
 
I'm cool with that, so long as Marth isn't freakin better than Corrin, I'm good. I also notice that damn, not even this article can escape the bajillion rants that Roy is "so bad". I mean him being almost bottom tier is bad, but it still makes sense to keep him at low tier... his endgame is meh.
Marth pretty much is better than Corrin, though.
 
I just have an honest question about how tiers are affected. As in, how do you figure out from the raw data what to consider a tier. Aside from being under or above a certain point score, what is the general rule for separating tiers. Also, how far apart are "bottom tiers" from mid tiers and so on? How significant is the difference between the tiers and how much do y'all think they can change as new tech keeps being discovered along with better character knowledge as they all get optimized? I'm not gonna plan on arguing over whether or not I think a bottom tier character belongs tons of places higher especially if they're relatively unknown in tournament. I definitely believe there's a lot to develop for different characters in all the tiers, I just wonder how that will possibly affect matchup spreads.
 
A very typical argument i see is "this character is better than we thought because of the new techs being discovered", notably olimar, link, DHD etc. However, every character in the game is steadily becoming stronger as the meta progresses. Only a few characters have been progressing at a faster rate (namely bayonetta, who people placed as low as 20th after the nerf).

Placing olimar at top 15 is a huge over statement, if anyone could honestly tell me that out of the 58 characters in smash 4, olimar is better than 43 of them, i would be appalled. People need to draw the line somewhere.

Maybe the answer is bigger tiers, maybe the game is more balanced than we thought. People are stuck in a melee/brawl mindset where only 5-10 characters are viable, and they try to apply that same thought process to smash 4. Thats why we see top players only use characters designated as "top tier", because, in their eyes, thats the only way to win; the best way to increase their chances. In reality, players like ZeRo could win using a mid tier character, if they put the same thousands of hours into it that they did with their top tier main.
I could see high tier being as many as 25 characters. I could see the game broken down into 4 tiers instead of the typical 5. Regardless, any character above bottom 10-15 is "viable" in my opinions.
And this post is just that, my opinion. And nothing else.

One final note. Smash 4 is a game that revolves around match up spreads. If you think a character like Roy is that amazing, try putting him up against a decent Rosa player. That MU is easily 30/70. When a character struggles so much against a common tournament character like Rosa, theres not much more that can even be said. The same can be said about nearly every mid/low tier character. You may think theyre underrated, or that they have techs that could seriously change their tier placement, but chances are theres a top tier character who can completely, utterly destroy them.
 
try putting him up against a decent Rosa player. That MU is easily 30/70. When a character struggles so much against a common tournament character like Rosa, theres not much more that can even be said.
How did Ryo almost beat Abadango then...? Please explain why this matchup is "easily 30:70" or the point is invalid... it's a good point too, try using a better example.
 
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