Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

I heard Kogarasuma is out?... Awww... Seriously?... I still have hope for Lucina in this tournament!

There is hope if Nairo pulls her out.

Oh boy I do not look forward to Dabuz vs Nakat

Just because Nakat plays Ness/Fox it is not impossible. But its Dabuz, he can beat anyone.

 

[meticulousboy]

Let's also keep in mind that in a game where rage exists, that also contributes to Peach's meta. Have you seen rage Peach Bomber? But that's beside the point.
@EternalFlare has a point. She actually has seen some placements in top 8, let alone 16. Having the best Down Air in the game makes her excellent at shield pressure. Floating offstage by the ledge is a sure way to prevent opponents from coming back to the stage. Granted, this isn't Melee where Fox had to deal with float Nair to another float Nair as an edgeguard. This isn't Brawl where Dsmash was able to poke. But all in all, Peach doesn't seem to have too much trouble against the top tiers.

A neutral that consists of Vegetable? That is improved by the fact that it helps unstale other moves.

 

[TDK]

Komorikiri 2-0 Sodrek

Ally vs WaDi next.

 

[Fenny]

Samsora 2-0 Fatality

rip my predictions

Not really surprised about this one, Sam is scary lmao

 

[Das Koopa]

random upset

Nick Riddle eliminates Pink Fresh

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Ally is down big time in game 3 against WaDi

EDIT: WaDi 2-1 Ally

 

[NotLiquid]

WaDi sends Ally to Losers 2-0

What is this tournament anymore

random upset

Nick Riddle eliminates Pink Fresh

I'm saddened

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wadi beat Ally.....

Super Smash con 2 rn

 

[Das Koopa]

it begins

 

[ARISTOS]

what is Mewtwo lol

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ksev beat 6WX?

 

[Das Koopa]

6WX is out, yeah.

 

[Fenny]

random upset

Nick Riddle eliminates Pink Fresh

Ally is down big time in game 3 against WaDi

EDIT: WaDi 2-1 Ally

6WX is out, yeah.

 

[Das Koopa]

We should probably have a TBH6 thread

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

We should probably have a TBH6 thread

true

 

[Fenny]

We should probably have a TBH6 thread

Indeed, having a CEO 2.5 ReMix going on here is gonna throw this thread into chaos

 

[Das Koopa]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-big-house-6-thread.442321/

here we go

 

[TurboLink]

Samsora took the bait so hard. I'll be honest, even I didn't see Mr. R doing that.

Tomahawk + Up Smash = true combo on Battlefield.

 

[BlazGreen]

We should probably have a TBH6 thread

I'm surprised there wasn't one to start with.

 

[blackghost]

random upset

Nick Riddle eliminates Pink Fresh

This isn't random zss bayo is a coin flip every time especially two extremely aggressive players

 

[Megamang]

How so? Zss seems easy to witch time, and she is very strong.... not sure where a coin flip comes in, even if the MU is volatile.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[unordered]:

-> top 4
-> top 8
-> top 10

That's about as specific a top 10 as I can semi-confidently suggest right now.

 

[irokex13]

[unordered]:

-> top 4
-> top 8
-> top 10

That's about as specific a top 10 as I can semi-confidently suggest right now.

Can you explain your reasoning on how you ordered this? What does the top 4 have that the rest don't? What puts ZSS and Cloud below the rest?

 

[NotLiquid]

While we have a TBH6 thread it might be worth mentioning here which characters made it to Top 32 (with possible reservation if I screwed up recounting this)

x3
x4

x2



x2


x3
x2

x2
x2
x2

x2

Keep in mind some of the characters listed belong to dual mains and may have had limited exposure in this tournament (e.g. Komorikiri mainly using Cloud as opposed to Sonic and James being listed as a Cloud/Luigi main).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rage bs not included, I think is going to have more trouble killing than as we move forward.

 

[The-Technique]

ignore this

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hm... well,
I know this is doubles, but I still feel like it's the perfect time to maybe discuss the vs. MU we saw a lot of tonight.
I think we saw the two extremes, here. First, we saw the absolute best Lucina could do in this matchup when Nairo was up against ANTi, with Mario getting completely outranged, edgeguarded easily and having a lot of difficulty approaching her.
Then, we saw the best of Mario in this matchup with Ally versus Nairo. Ally still got outspaced a bunch, but was able to recover much more consinsently, and he was able to get in with far more ease, exploit their disadvantage state and cause some nasty damage. We... also saw this... Embarassing.
I have dual-mained Mario and Lucina for the longest time, now, and I have always believed Mario lost the matchup versus Marcina even if slightly - My experience both fighting as Mario versus those two and as Lucina versus some Mario mains. But what do you people say?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Rage bs not included, I think is going to have more trouble killing than as we move forward.

Perhaps more trouble than Sheik percent wise in the future, but as I've mentioned before his up tilt will prevent killing from ever being a big problem as using up tilt over up smash isn't all that big of a percent gap, especially for a character with as good of a neutral as Diddy Kong who can get the damage he needs rather easily and his up tilt should pretty much always be fresh.

 

[meticulousboy]

Yeah. I think I remember Zinoto getting a KO against AnTi with Utilt at CEO 2016. It was fresh, indeed.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

You can camp Diddy out pretty well at kill percents. Sheik is uncampable. There's the difference.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

You can camp Diddy out pretty well at kill percents. Sheik is uncampable. There's the difference.

The gap between when up smash tends to kill and when up tilt tends to kill can be closed in like 2 hits. He also has an up throw 50/50 so no he can't be camped out very well. If you try to camp him with moves he'll glide toss a banana at you, if you camp with shield he'll grab you.

And don't even get me started on that world ending fair that can just instantly destroy all spacing..

 

[blackghost]

How so? Zss seems easy to witch time, and she is very strong.... not sure where a coin flip comes in, even if the MU is volatile.

why would zss be easy to witch time? her neutral consists of gtabs and paralyer. if a combo is true bayo isnt witch timing her. the only move that could be witch timed is flip kick and zss should never throw that at a bayo onstage.
volatile=coin flip. its 50 50 and the matches will never go to time unless bayo sits in the duck hunt tree and plays like Child.
other tings i personally learned from this tournament we need a seperate doubles tier list bayonetta and marth among other top tiers aren't universally good in doubles.
second salem > pink fresh/ saj> every other bayo.
theres a lot left to learn in this game.
peach is a good character simply hard (like she is in every smash game)
never sleep on the midwest.

 

[Megamang]

Pellets dont care about glide toss banana. Im sure there are other characters who feel the same. Limit Blade beam is a good banana killing, effective trapping option

 

[Stiga]

Diddy Kong is DEFINITELY not the best. Although he as a good neutral, his recovery is to easy to intercept. He has a losing matchup against Rosalina, Olimar, Mega Man, Sheik, maybe Fox, maybe Marth and maybe Lucina.

PLEASE DONT KILL ME FOR THE MARTH AND LUCINA PART I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS A TOUCHY SUBJECT BECAUSE IM NEW HERE.

By the way, this is MY opinion, your welcome to disagree, but don't kill me for it, I'm not even 18 yet even though my birthdate says so

 

[FeelMeUp]

Marth and Lucina

Slow your roll there, buddy.

 

[L9999]

Diddy Kong is DEFINITELY not the best. Although he as a good neutral, his recovery is to easy to intercept. He has a losing matchup against Rosalina, Olimar, Mega Man, Sheik, maybe Fox, Marth and Lucina

Diddy's recovery is exploitable but it has mixups. Marth and Lucina don't beat Diddy. Diddy can make them struggle with Peanut+Banana camp, exploting their bad landing options with banana and get free grabs, each Diddy grab is eating a lot of damage because Marcina are very tall and that is perfect for Fair/Bair combos, and being in the edge against Diddy is lethal. But where Marcina is good is at edgeguarding Diddy, and due to eating a lot of damage, Marcina gets a lot of rage, and Marcina LOVES rage to pull out jank like rage Foward Smash, rage aerial edgeguards (not coming back) or Up Throw when the percents get ridiculous, which is plausible because like mentioned above Diddy isn't stellar at killing, and playing safe2win won't get you Up Tilted anytime soon, but playing safe against Diddy is easier said than done.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The gap between when up smash tends to kill and when up tilt tends to kill can be closed in like 2 hits. He also has an up throw 50/50 so no he can't be camped out very well. If you try to camp him with moves he'll glide toss a banana at you, if you camp with shield he'll grab you.

And don't even get me started on that world ending fair that can just instantly destroy all spacing..

I don't see how any of this equates to him having a decent anti camp game... You can throw bombs, pellets, boomarangs, various charge shots, needles, lasers, etc all you want at Diddy and hes going to have a hard time dealing with it. Sheik on the other hand can just throw a single needle and stop you from throwing anything out or multiple needles and get a kill confirm off it from halfway across the stage

 

[NairWizard]

Rage bs not included, I think is going to have more trouble killing than as we move forward.

@Shaya mentioned it already, and I agreed at that time: Diddy doesn't have killing aerials, and also poor air weaving/mobility. Definitely not the trappings of a top 3 character.

I also don't have much confidence in Sheik for similar (but different) reasons. I think they both just narrowly miss top 3.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sheik's option coverage is oppressive. She can always do something which is why she's so good, but her weight nerfs are greatly understated. She dies almost exactly 1 neutral win sooner. Which is huge since she can be put at death percent in as little as 1-2 neutral losses. Meanwhile sheik herself has to win abut 8-14 neutral wins to get the stock vs a character without a ass recovery or usmash read.

Meanwhile, bayo retains more aggressive options across all gamestates, and she kills you within 4 neutral wins easy. Sometimes just one. While her neutral isn't the best, it's still better than average and carries insane reward. Far superior to mario or luigi's reward despite their inferior neutrals. (Considering kill confirms, not just damage potential)

M2 is similarly oppressive in neutral but again only needs to win neutral within 4 times. (one dtilt string = 41%. Then 2-3 fairs, shadowballs, or fthrows and they're at ledge trap kill percent. And if he lost neutral enough himself, they'll just be at uthrow kill percent anyway)

Sheik is actually lighter than m2. She's easier to combo than m2. They BOTH have anti-vertical string escapes so it's not like BF gives her an edge.

I don't know why people bring up m2's ledge weakness. It isn't bad at all, it's just the ONLY place he's even somewhat susceptible. He can't be kill confirmed easily, and he has too much priority, range, and speed to kill consistently off neutral reads.

Rosalina, Mario, Cloud, Fox, and Ryu are all weaker on the ledge than m2 and lack the safety to recover high or put out 1.5 hitboxes (confusion + fair/uair) to make the ledge safe.

These characters (and maybe corrin) are a clear tier above the rest except maybe diddy who can actually contest them in neutral/kill confirms. But his disadvantage is far more exploitable so he's still clearly more fair.

Gheb's list would be more accurate ordered imo lol

 

[HoSmash4]

Mewtwo is not top 5 as long as Diddy exists. People understate how big a weakness his hurtbox is as well