<3 Depth Versus Complexity in Smash 4

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I did play the game... And I did that stuff. Pichu the character with the worst range was safe on sheild with aerials. I could sh nair lcancel and then grab jab uair or nair again before my opponent could do an offensive option. assuming it wasn't bowser or samus.
Their only options were to roll away, wavedash out, spot dodge or (what most people would do) hit me before I got to their sheild.

Even slow dudes like gannondorf could dair and fair on sheild Lcancel and have their jab to shut up offensive actions, even if their spacing was WAY off.

EDIT:
And you don't even have to commit to THOSE options, you can wavedash or just run away after a successful lcancel as well.

As someone who plays Pichu in tourney, can confirm this is incorrect.

Unless you cross-up, Nair isn't completely safe on shield. Even if you do cross-up, fast bairs or shines can get you.

 

[<π]

@ Alfonzo Bagpipez I played pichu in tourney too! Are you nairing right as you hit the ground? pichu's nair a 6 frames of landing lag when L canceled there is no reason anyone should be punishing you with anything... well maybe shine because that move is stupid.

Nair Lcancel Jab is like a 8 frame window for them to react that's the same thing as fox's nair to shine! Make them respect you!

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

@ Alfonzo Bagpipez I played pichu in tourney too! Are you nairing right as you hit the ground? pichu's nair a 6 frames of landing lag when L canceled there is no reason anyone should be punishing you with anything... well maybe shine because that move is stupid.

Nair Lcancel Jab is like a 8 frame window for them to react that's the same thing as fox's nair to shine! Make them respect you!

8 frames is plenty, though.

 

[<π]

plenty for what?

The fastest grabs START at 7 frames. so even assuming there was no sheild stun from pichu nair they would have to almost frame perfectly grab you to punish. Other ground options don't really work because in melee sheild drop takes for ever, and the fastest aerials in the game are well... pichu's an no one plays pichu so you are good.

Seriously though. even pichu has to wait 7 frames before she can throw out an aerial hit box from the ground. for comparison fox's jump OOS shine is frame 5, his fastest OOS aerial is nair at frame 8.

I've put litterally YEARS in to my melee pichu, I'm a little rusty on my knowledge because I haven't been applying it, but I probablly put as much effort into my pichu as I did my samus (even though I really don't think I should have). And I was a high level samus, I've written threads on just BOMBS that would make this one look like a children's book.

Here it is if you wanna take a look:
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-3-bombs-the-indepth-guide-to-bombs.59039/

I put that much effort into pichu and pichu's high tier match ups, particularly fox and falco.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

plenty for what?

The fastest grabs START at 7 frames. so even assuming there was no sheild stun from pichu nair they would have to almost frame perfectly grab you to punish. Other ground options don't really work because in melee sheild drop takes for ever, and the fastest aerials in the game are well... pichu's an no one plays pichu so you are good.

Seriously though. even pichu has to wait 7 frames before she can throw out an aerial hit box from the ground. for comparison fox's jump OOS shine is frame 5, his fastest OOS aerial is nair at frame 8.

I've put litterally YEARS in to my melee pichu, I'm a little rusty on my knowledge because I haven't been applying it, but I probablly put as much effort into my pichu as I did my samus (even though I really don't think I should have). And I was a high level samus, I've written threads on just BOMBS that would make this one look like a children's book.

Here it is if you wanna take a look:
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-3-bombs-the-indepth-guide-to-bombs.59039/

I put that much effort into pichu and pichu's high tier match ups, particularly fox and falco.

Well, I dunno what I'm doing wrong, cause I get shield grabbed every single time.

I admit defeat, tho.

Back to lurking I go.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

8 frames is plenty, though.

8 frames isn't plenty for anything, and anyone who thinks it is has a very skewed idea of human perception and reaction times. 8/60ths of a second? Yeah, no. Whatever it is, unless they already knew what you were doing as you did it, they aren't reacting to it.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

8 frames isn't plenty for anything, and anyone who thinks it is has a very skewed idea of human perception and reaction times. 8/60ths of a second? Yeah, no. Whatever it is, unless they already knew what you were doing as you did it, they aren't reacting to it.

It's not really 8 frames to react, tho.
It's 8 frames to press a button.

If someone short hops at me, they can only do 2 things. So I pretty much already know what to do by the time the actual reaction window comes.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It's not really 8 frames to react, tho.
It's 8 frames to press a button.

If someone short hops at me, they can only do 2 things. So I pretty much already know what to do by the time the actual reaction window comes.

Fair point. Unless they have spacing options that let them do things like mess with the aerial's timing to force your timing to be different, which seems to be something we're seeing a lot of in Smash 4 so far.

 

[<π]

Just nair right before you hit the ground and make sure you L-cancel. I'm guessing you are just doing it to high and there are a bunch of frames between you hitting them and you hitting the ground.
back when I was a youngster I was sitting alone in a room with my pichu just practicing chain grabs and shffled aerials for hours. I don't know how much time you want to invest into pichu.
Fair is also a good approach option with very low landing lag. and since it hits multiple times its harder to out right punish if you don't get the timing perfect. you take damage though and have less priority :/

 

[Renji64]

So you really want to make competitive players to look bad, then. Not entirely sure how that'd help a competitive SSB64 player like yourself, but I'll make sure that others doing what you do understand the effects it has.



I know. But does the average person? No. And does it justify the whining? Absolutely not. Like I said, I don't want people reversing the progress Nintendo has made for us in getting acceptance. Every time somebody bashes Brawl or SSB4 it slightly undoes that progress. The community will have to actively fix what others are breaking to keep us where we are, much less make progress.

If one person makes a whole community look bad to you that says something about you not me lol.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No he doesn't. Scenario is equally lacking in evidence or supporting facts to back up his sweeping claims he just makes it more wordy sometimes to hide it.

These are minority type players. People who outwardly express their disinterest in playing Smash 4 at all due to specific mechanics not being implemented. Their viewpoint is inherently not really conducive to good discussion because it is by default irrational.

In any case I'm smelling a Brawl vs 64 debate (wtf), maybe we should try to go back to the discussion of depth vs complexity and the appropriate proportions of it in Smash 4.

I like how quick you are to point out others flaws without actually contributing to the topic.

I don't know what your deal is but you need to stop acting like you know everything. Just because someone refuses to believe that smash 4 is the greatest thing since sliced bread doesn't mean anything. I've played smash 4, and based on the general direction the game is headed, I like Melee better. Based on what I've seen, the game isn't what I like. How is that a problem?

Get a life, dude.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I like how quick you are to point out others flaws without actually contributing to the topic.

I don't know what your deal is but you need to stop acting like you know everything. Just because someone refuses to believe that smash 4 is the greatest thing since sliced bread doesn't mean anything. I've played smash 4, and based on the general direction the game is headed, I like Melee better. Based on what I've seen, the game isn't what I like. How is that a problem?

Get a life, dude.

I never said it was a problem that you dislike Smash 4 but I've already illustrated a zillion times in posts that get sandwiched under likes why it's not constructive or useful for you to whine about it.

Lol, because you know about my life.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Knock it off with the petty insults.

 

[<π]

First off thanks guys for all the positive (and negative) feedback. I've learned a lot, and hope you guys have all walked away with a little more as well. I really like doing these and plan on putting out a lot more even as we continue on into smash for 3ds' release. I want the series to focus on aspects that involve the community more than info reveals and such... I hope my videos and posts are worth following.

I'm starting work on the video for next week... but I'm having trouble picking out a topic. I've narrowed it down to these few... anything jumping out at you guys?

Competitive Smash 4 from a spectators point of view.
Is 8 minutes too much for Smash 4?
Making the Smash 4 competitive community more appealing?

EDIT:
Really guys thanks a lot! You don't know how much it means.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

"Competitive Smash 4 from a spectators point of view" gets my vote.

I'd be down for option 2 though, seeing as how I've never really heard much discussion myself on the 8-minute timer. I feel like it's something a lot of players (myself included) just take for granted and don't think about or question.

 

[Raijinken]

First off thanks guys for all the positive (and negative) feedback. I've learned a lot, and hope you guys have all walked away with a little more as well. I really like doing these and plan on putting out a lot more even as we continue on into smash for 3ds' release. I want the series to focus on aspects that involve the community more than info reveals and such... I hope my videos and posts are worth following.

I'm starting work on the video for next week... but I'm having trouble picking out a topic. I've narrowed it down to these few... anything jumping out at you guys?

Competitive Smash 4 from a spectators point of view.
Is 8 minutes too much for Smash 4?
Making the Smash 4 competitive community more appealing?

EDIT:
Really guys thanks a lot! You don't know how much it means.

Definitely the spectator aspect, it receives far too little focus for something so important for a growing esport.

Second choice is the timer discussion.

I don't like the idea of addressing the competitive community, as communities in any game are consistently a love-it-or-hate-it thing. However, for a similar and perhaps more relevant idea, maybe do something about how to start or grow the scene in places where it's nearly nonexistant (hello fellow North Carolinians).

 

[Big-Cat]

I think option 1 is your best one for the time being. The 8 Minute debate won't really be a deep topic until the game comes out. For all we know, we may be able to cut it in half the time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

First off thanks guys for all the positive (and negative) feedback. I've learned a lot, and hope you guys have all walked away with a little more as well. I really like doing these and plan on putting out a lot more even as we continue on into smash for 3ds' release. I want the series to focus on aspects that involve the community more than info reveals and such... I hope my videos and posts are worth following.

I'm starting work on the video for next week... but I'm having trouble picking out a topic. I've narrowed it down to these few... anything jumping out at you guys?

Competitive Smash 4 from a spectators point of view.
Is 8 minutes too much for Smash 4?
Making the Smash 4 competitive community more appealing?

EDIT:
Really guys thanks a lot! You don't know how much it means.

It's hard to really tell how long matches should last because it seems that some characters will play noticeably faster than others, but the game's overall speed usually falls in between Melee and Brawl, so 3 stock 7 min should be pretty safe to start with. I'm not necessarily sure how to make the community appealing, but it looks like there may be some tough decisions to make when it comes to competitive rulesets, such as custom moves, stagelists, etc. and one thing that needs to happen is for the major players in the Smash 4 community to be respectful of each other while trying to hash these things out and not let the community be torn apart by petty infighting and back room politics. It's important for the community to work together to promote the scene for it to be as successful as possible.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

First off thanks guys for all the positive (and negative) feedback. I've learned a lot, and hope you guys have all walked away with a little more as well. I really like doing these and plan on putting out a lot more even as we continue on into smash for 3ds' release. I want the series to focus on aspects that involve the community more than info reveals and such... I hope my videos and posts are worth following.

I'm starting work on the video for next week... but I'm having trouble picking out a topic. I've narrowed it down to these few... anything jumping out at you guys?

Competitive Smash 4 from a spectators point of view.
Is 8 minutes too much for Smash 4?
Making the Smash 4 competitive community more appealing?

EDIT:
Really guys thanks a lot! You don't know how much it means.

Competitive smash from a spectator POV sounds interesting. If you're not already familiar with a lot of the high level techniques and strategies, it can be almost impossible to follow a match. (This is why good commentators are important.) And if you ask me, making the scene more accessible to and digestible by the spectators is the first step towards maybe getting them interested in participating for themselves and thus growing the community.

 

[Senario]

Competitive smash from a spectator POV sounds interesting. If you're not already familiar with a lot of the high level techniques and strategies, it can be almost impossible to follow a match. (This is why good commentators are important.) And if you ask me, catering to the spectators at least somewhat is the first step towards maybe getting them interested in participating for themselves and thus growing the community.

Commentators help a lot of people understand what is going on at the highest level of play in nearly all competitive video games so far. And same thing in some sports.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Commentators help a lot of people understand what is going on at the highest level of play in nearly all competitive video games so far. And same thing in some sports.

I made a small wording edit, FYI. And I agree good commentators help tremendously, but some commentators are better than others. It's the difference between simply saying "good move by X" and explaining why it was a good move.

 

[Senario]

I made a small wording edit, FYI. And I agree good commentators help tremendously, but some commentators are better than others. It's the difference between simply saying "good move by X" and explaining why it was a good move.

That is why streams tend to yell for bad commentators to get off the mic lol. When it comes to serious tournament matches explaining what is going on is key. But when streaming fun stuff it is good to have commentators who are plain entertaining. People who embody both of these traits are rare but arguably you can say D1 and Prog were two of them.

 

[Raijinken]

That is why streams tend to yell for bad commentators to get off the mic lol. When it comes to serious tournament matches explaining what is going on is key. But when streaming fun stuff it is good to have commentators who are plain entertaining. People who embody both of these traits are rare but arguably you can say D1 and Prog were two of them.

This is why listening to Scar try to seriously commentate Smash4 was painful, but when he just started joking around, things went better. Not that he is a bad commentator, but it's hard to commentate well when you don't know the game (and in his case, don't seem to have a clue what items that have been around since 64 are or do).

I guess the spectator vid and growing the competitive scene rather go hand in hand. I didn't start caring to spectate games until I started spectating Dota2 and listening to Tobiwan, Ayesee, Lumi, and the various other good casters they have. Once I realized that good casting can make games more fun to watch, I started watching PM streams, and watching skilled play with D1 and TKBreezy commentating motivated me to start trying to improve. Not that it worked because I'm playing a game with technical barriers that I suck at, but it at least made me try.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

If we have commentators that give Smash 4 the same amount of effort they give Melee I'm pretty sure that covers a large portion of the "fun to watch" issue.

Commentators, make or break the excitement of even Melee matches, and it's going to be no different IMO with smash 4.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I thought them not knowing the names of some items was painful to listen to.

 

[otter]

Personally I could stand a bit more play by play. I don't need any more average players trying to copy yipes speech.

 

[shapular]

Personally I could stand a bit more play by play. I don't need any more average players trying to copy yipes speech.

I prefer deeply analytical commentary more than anything. It really helps me understand what's going on in a match even more, whether it's from strategies, matchups, personal history, or whatever.

<3, I think talking about the spectator point of view would be the most interesting. Talking about changing from 8 minutes isn't that interesting, unless you maybe want to go into whether we want to decide on a time limit and set the stocks from that, instead of in reverse like it's always been done. It's true that we've had 8 minutes as a thing forever without question, even before the time limit mattered, but I've also seen it played around with some in the past few years. I think the Japanese use 9 minutes for Brawl, and I've seen 10 sometimes too. I've also seen 4 stocks, 6 minutes suggested for Melee. But as for specifics, I don't think it's possible to create a convincing argument for any specific stock/time combination without anybody having played the game competitively for more than a few hours.

 

[<π]

I won't go into detail on it... but I actually spent a TON of time trying to research where 8 minutes came from for smash and why its stuck around for so long. Couldn't find a thing.
My best guess is players WANT desperately to take all the stocks in a match. The 8 minutes is just tacked on the end because we can't run a tournament if there is that 1 guy who doesn't mind stalling out each game for 15 minutes.

Personally I think we can attribute a lot of issues we've been seeing with tournaments going over in time if we make a sets time window smaller and more consistent some how. (we also need to make sure sets are being played and not friendlies...) a set can take anywhere between 5 minutes (two quick 2 minute wins for 1 player) to a full half hour! (3 long 8 minute matches with long breaks in between to get coached, pick characters and stages... maybe use the bathroom) It's hard to plan an event around those huge 25 minute dependencies.

Another thing... I think timing people out SHOULD be a fun and exciting way to play the game. with our current rule set a timeout isn't a real thing until after 7, often times 7 and a half minutes. I think THAT is part of the reason why it is so shunned by our community. It ISN'T fun to watch. A lower timer, may make that run away play style barable, maybe even fun; something people will route for! A shorter limit would give at least one player much more incentive to be aggressive because they know time is a factor RIGHT NOW, and it isn't a back of the mind thing until we pass that 7 minute mark.

You guys are right though... it is something that I should probably wait until release to go really deep into.

I'm just about done with my script for this week's video. The topic has morphed a little but I'm sure you guys will enjoy it!

 

[Raijinken]

Another thing... I think timing people out SHOULD be a fun and exciting way to play the game. with our current rule set a timeout isn't a real thing until after 7, often times 7 and a half minutes. I think THAT is part of the reason why it is so shunned by our community. It ISN'T fun to watch. A lower timer, may make that run away play style barable, maybe even fun; something people will route for! A shorter limit would give at least one player much more incentive to be aggressive because they know time is a factor RIGHT NOW, and it isn't a back of the mind thing until we pass that 7 minute mark.

I've always frowned on stalling in these games, especially since it's always the player who would otherwise lose taking advantage of their character's speed (Zero in the E3 tournament) to say "eff you and your skill" to their opponent, and run circles until time is up. It's boring, unsporting, and only allowed because TOs won't just moderate and penalize players who deliberately stall stock-only games past a certain duration.

We never run into time limit issues in my group of friends because everyone wants to play and fight and either prove themselves better at the game, or get to the point where they can. And you can't get better at fighting by not fighting. Anyone who starts camping draws the general hatred of the rest of the group until they correct their behavior. The vast majority of our PM matches are done within five minutes, the longer ones are normally because we take a moment to experiment with some observation (from a case yesterday, Olimar's jump recovery on the left side of Skyloft doesn't gain altitude past the ledge).

Basically, I have never seen a case of timing out that looks like anything short of ungraceful cowardice a cheap way to take a win you didn't earn. While it's conceivable that a timeout victory could be a matter of depth, it's more consistently a side effect of stage choice versus character matchup. I would kinda like some very skilled players to start picking cases where they can stall and win by taking first stock, just to show how stupid the option is.

 

[<π]

I've always frowned on stalling in these games, especially since it's always the player who would otherwise lose taking advantage of their character's speed (Zero in the E3 tournament) to say "eff you and your skill" to their opponent, and run circles until time is up. It's boring, unsporting, and only allowed because TOs won't just moderate and penalize players who deliberately stall stock-only games past a certain duration.

We never run into time limit issues in my group of friends because everyone wants to play and fight and either prove themselves better at the game, or get to the point where they can. And you can't get better at fighting by not fighting. Anyone who starts camping draws the general hatred of the rest of the group until they correct their behavior. The vast majority of our PM matches are done within five minutes, the longer ones are normally because we take a moment to experiment with some observation (from a case yesterday, Olimar's jump recovery on the left side of Skyloft doesn't gain altitude past the ledge).

Basically, I have never seen a case of timing out that looks like anything short of ungraceful cowardice a cheap way to take a win you didn't earn. While it's conceivable that a timeout victory could be a matter of depth, it's more consistently a side effect of stage choice versus character matchup. I would kinda like some very skilled players to start picking cases where they can stall and win by taking first stock, just to show how stupid the option is.

I'm not from that camp.... in my mind the better player ALWAYS win. period. I've only been upset ONE TIME... from a loss, and it was a laggy TV (I could grab release dacus correctly and I lost my MLG set by a kill), but even then... my opponent had the same play conditions... so.
HBOX lost that match because he decided to pick a character who wasn't mobile, if he played the set better earlier he could have been up a stock and forced an approach with that advantage. Zero won because he played to win. he didn't see himself winning head on so he used his character's advantage and took the gamble of Sudden Death.
As a sheik main; as a mid tier I've had COUNTLESS high tier mains tell me that I won because I used my ftilt... or because i have needles. I had one guy say "wow... could you short hop more?!" WHAT?! Its always easy to find some reason to blame other than a lack of skill on your part, but at the end of the day a loss is a loss. If you want to get better keep pushing against it until you beat it!

I've timed people out before with brawl jiggs... it is SO HARD... man it is so hard. Can you imagine not getting hit for 8 minutes against fox or Ice climbers or meta knight? Trying to not commit to any habits that you opponent can guess? Its easy to say stalling takes no skill... but its much harder to actually stall than one would assume when playing against it.

And don't get me wrong... I understand it is frustrating to play against. I know frustrating... I have like 15 matches of me getting chain grabbed on my youtube channel to show you what frustration look like. And while fortunately for me, you can't camp sheik or jiggs. I still think it is fair to say camping/stalling are, and should be received as legitimate ways to win.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm not from that camp.... in my mind the better player ALWAYS win. period. I've only been upset ONE TIME... from a loss, and it was a laggy TV (I could grab release dacus correctly and I lost my MLG set by a kill), but even then... my opponent had the same play conditions... so.
HBOX lost that match because he decided to pick a character who wasn't mobile, if he played the set better earlier he could have been up a stock and forced an approach with that advantage. Zero won because he played to win. he didn't see himself winning head on so he used his character's advantage and took the gamble of Sudden Death.
As a sheik main; as a mid tier I've had COUNTLESS high tier mains tell me that I won because I used my ftilt... or because i have needles. I had one guy say "wow... could you short hop more?!" WHAT?! Its always easy to find some reason to blame other than a lack of skill on your part, but at the end of the day a loss is a loss. If you want to get better keep pushing against it until you beat it!

I've timed people out before with brawl jiggs... it is SO HARD... man it is so hard. Can you imagine not getting hit for 8 minutes against fox or Ice climbers or meta knight? Trying to not commit to any habits that you opponent can guess? Its easy to say stalling takes no skill... but its much harder to actually stall than one would assume when playing against it.

And don't get me wrong... I understand it is frustrating to play against. I know frustrating... I have like 15 matches of me getting chain grabbed on my youtube channel to show you what frustration look like. And while fortunately for me, you can't camp sheik or jiggs. I still think it is fair to say camping/stalling are, and should be received as legitimate ways to win.

Fair enough opinion, but it's the one "tactic" that I hate more than edgehogging, and if people want to take pride in winning a fighting game by running from fighting, that's up to them.

And if you managed to stall successfully with Jigglypuff, I seriously question the skill of your opponent.

 

[<π]

We should play some time You aren't too far from me!

 

[Raijinken]

We should play some time You aren't too far from me!

I'm stuck at school without a car for the remainder of the school year, but would gladly take you up online once the game's out.

 

[JV5Chris]

What I meant was, you don't really need top notch spacing to really do this. I've done and seen people get away with mediocre or bad spacing because they L-cancelled alone.

Spacing makes it harder to punish, that is true. But in terms of safety, you can get away with a lot more while not necessarily spacing well, this is more so true with the higher up characters to be fair but still.

It's a two way street, attack safety depends heavily on the defending player's own ability to space, react, and work out the optimal maneuver for any given situation. Players like Armada that have a strong punish game absolutely break people that assume their shffls, for example, are safe.

I agree but I think Melee has a lot more safety in this regard for most moves on shield and even wiffed. Basically a lot of movesets, this is more so true in PM, don't really have to commit.

Shield is honestly a really ****ty option in every smash game but Brawl.

It's hard to call shielding bad in any Smash game when it's primary purpose is to block attacks.

If you're qualifying its value based on the countering ability though, Brawl easily has the most potent shield. Far more of a gamble to attack in its proximity, which contributes to a very different style of game. If Brawl's gameplay is your baseline for comparing what constitutes as attack commitment, then yeah, Melee's shield is going to seem weak and attacks probably safe depending on who you play against.

Sure, but the same thing could be said of the options presented with each games respective shield mechanics. In the end of both provide similar amounts of defensive options, is one better simply because it requires more button inputs? Id say it doesnt matter.

Disagree, there's a big difference between the defensive options available in each game. Comes down ultimately to preference though.

 

[Baky]

My ultimate issue with Melee is that while there is a little wiggle room it narrowed what some see Smash as down to a competition of speed and reflexes. It's about reaction times, out-maneuvering, and mastery of your buttons. This is a completely valid form of play, but why does it have to complete envelop the entirety of competitive play?

After only reading the first page I've read this same statement reworded time and time again.

If you're suggesting that competitive Melee is all tech skill then you couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, the new-school-tech-heavy-scrubs have gotten wrecked time and time again by top players who have superior mindgames and reads. Beyond a beginner intermediate competitive level, Melee is so much more than "speed and reflexes".

 

[mimgrim]

Fair enough opinion, but it's the one "tactic" that I hate more than edgehogging, and if people want to take pride in winning a fighting game by running from fighting, that's up to them.

This isn't the middle age you know. >_>

It's hard to call shielding bad in any Smash game when it's primary purpose is to block attacks.

It's not hard to call the shields in Smash 64 bad, at all.

 

[Raijinken]

This isn't the middle age you know. >_>

I fail to see the current era as a reason to disregard a personal code of honor, but others clearly disagree.

Either way, I think the spectator aspect of competitive Smash would be a great topic, as one need not be a competitive player necessarily to enjoy spectating.

 

[shapular]

I've always frowned on stalling in these games, especially since it's always the player who would otherwise lose taking advantage of their character's speed (Zero in the E3 tournament) to say "eff you and your skill" to their opponent, and run circles until time is up. It's boring, unsporting, and only allowed because TOs won't just moderate and penalize players who deliberately stall stock-only games past a certain duration.

We never run into time limit issues in my group of friends because everyone wants to play and fight and either prove themselves better at the game, or get to the point where they can. And you can't get better at fighting by not fighting. Anyone who starts camping draws the general hatred of the rest of the group until they correct their behavior. The vast majority of our PM matches are done within five minutes, the longer ones are normally because we take a moment to experiment with some observation (from a case yesterday, Olimar's jump recovery on the left side of Skyloft doesn't gain altitude past the ledge).

Basically, I have never seen a case of timing out that looks like anything short of ungraceful cowardice a cheap way to take a win you didn't earn. While it's conceivable that a timeout victory could be a matter of depth, it's more consistently a side effect of stage choice versus character matchup. I would kinda like some very skilled players to start picking cases where they can stall and win by taking first stock, just to show how stupid the option is.

If camping gets to you that much, you haven't played against camping enough to know how to beat it. I used to be like you, but I've played against so many campers on Brawl wifi that I eventually learned how to deal with it. It doesn't bother me now and I view it as a challenge. You shouldn't shame other people for camping. You should shame yourself for losing to it if that's what's happening. If you're playing against bad campers, they're probably being predictable and you should be able to get in easily. If you're playing against good campers, accept that they might be better than you and figure out how to deal with it. It'll make you a better player.

 

[otter]

ignore this

 

[Renji64]

If camping gets to you that much, you haven't played against camping enough to know how to beat it. I used to be like you, but I've played against so many campers on Brawl wifi that I eventually learned how to deal with it. It doesn't bother me now and I view it as a challenge. You shouldn't shame other people for camping. You should shame yourself for losing to it if that's what's happening. If you're playing against bad campers, they're probably being predictable and you should be able to get in easily. If you're playing against good campers, accept that they might be better than you and figure out how to deal with it. It'll make you a better player.

How do people pay 60 for a fighting/party game and not want to engage in combat is beyond me. Pretty much brawl came down to who felt like standing around for 8 mins.