Guide 3.6 Match-Up Thread

[Kycse]

Any insight on the Ike MU?

I feel once I let him have space for QD that I start to lose neutral and he has a easy time getting a kill on Zard since I can't really challenge any of his aerials. Also, I'm really bad at edge guarding him.

I play a lot of Ikes. Look me up on YouTube and watch me vs. MLGF or Takeshi. Edgeguard Ile hard by dropping low with back air. Don't fear his upB but don't challenge it from on stage

 

[Randomman14]

So I have a friend who recently picked up mewtwo. We played a few matches and ended up fairly even, so we were wondering what the Zard mewtwo MU looked like

 

[Kycse]

Here's my thoughts on Charizard's MUs. For most of these characters I've played very high level player of the character. While things can change this is where things stand (in my opinion) right now. As techniques and optimal play by match up is learned things can change drastically. Perhaps we could talk about a MU weekly?

 

[Filosafer]

It's... odd. As a Wolf main, I can't ****ing stand the charizard matchup(Probably cuz it's Mask), since each character can kill off one hit, but Wolf has to work so much harder to keep combos going. I'll usually switch to Captain Falcon or Bowser, actually, to deal with it. Bowser because he's my smashfu and Fortress is the only move that can prevent charizard's graphic display on platforms. I'm also in the belief that Zard is a spacey killer, due to the number of conversion off of jab, which is god-like since Zard can true CC jab, and it prevents spacies' aerial approaches.

 

[Kycse]

Charizard struggles against lasers (or at least I do). While Charizard has a great punish game on spacies, getting that hit can be painfully hard and converting to a kill is never guaranteed. also edge guarding wolf is much harder than fox/falco. Also on the defensive side Wolf combos/punishes really well (although perhaps i don't know where to DI because down/away are not it for Charizard). Charizard is a character who would like to benefit off his weight but doesn't as much against Wolf imo

 

[permafros7]

Lucario/Wolf dual main here. Could someone explain why Lucario is 55-45 for Zard? His large hurtbox, baitable moves, and weight make me think its either 50-50 or 55-45 for Lucario. I've had some of my larger punishes (0 to death included) vs Zard. Furthermore, is the MU disparity between Wolf and Lucario significant enough to warrant me picking Wolf for the matchup?

EDIT: Why do you think its harder for Zard to edgeguard Wolf than the other spacies outside of Side B?

 

[Randomman14]

Lucario/Wolf dual main here. Could someone explain why Lucario is 55-45 for Zard? His large hurtbox, baitable moves, and weight make me think its either 50-50 or 55-45 for Lucario. I've had some of my larger punishes (0 to death included) vs Zard. Furthermore, is the MU disparity between Wolf and Lucario significant enough to warrant me picking Wolf for the matchup?

EDIT: Why do you think its harder for Zard to edgeguard Wolf than the other spacies outside of Side B?

Lucario/Wolf dual main here. Could someone explain why Lucario is 55-45 for Zard? His large hurtbox, baitable moves, and weight make me think its either 50-50 or 55-45 for Lucario. I've had some of my larger punishes (0 to death included) vs Zard. Furthermore, is the MU disparity between Wolf and Lucario significant enough to warrant me picking Wolf for the matchup?

EDIT: Why do you think its harder for Zard to edgeguard Wolf than the other spacies outside of Side B?

From what I've experienced, Zard can make it fairly difficult for lucario to get in due to moves like nair and jab. If the lucario does get in, it can lead to a stock but it can go both ways since Zard can also combo lucario pretty well. I also think the stage can play a very big part in the MU.

 

[Kycse]

Lucario has a tough time getting through Bair, Nair and Jab. While his fair timed precisely can beat Nair in most situations he'll find it tough to get in. Also when he does get in its hard covering it to a stock without aura-SideB. Best strategy is to upB -> upAir to the top but low ceilings are needed for that. Charizard does not struggle as hard to convert a hit into a stock because of Lucarios weight and can edge guard him effectively. So edge goes to Zard imo.

Wolf is by far the toughest spacie for zard to handle. While I'm still trying to develop strategies for the match up right now (how to deal with lasers) it's really come down to Wolf winning neutral through lasers and can kill fairly easily with shine aerials into sideB because of our size. Also his CC game is good and he's tough to edge guard (although I have ideas for that, too). But nevertheless, if your dual maining Wolf/Lucario wolf is the way to go.

Edge guarding wolf is only tougher to edge guard than Fox/Falco because they're much easier to edge guard in general. Zard can cover almost every option with RAR Nair into either Bair on hit, bair/Dair if they go low, and glide attack of they go for stage (which if they're high enough percent (90%ish) it rests the edge guard on the other side. I'll post an example of this in a bit or you can look up my games.

Wolf however gets away from this because he can side B quickly from the angles charizard puts him in allowing him to recover quickly before a late Nair can even come out. Best option might be for Zard to grab ledge and either fall off Bair or force wolf to go for stage and punish a landing but Charizard doesn't want to play neutral again against wolf... So yeah, that's my reasoning.

 

[permafros7]

You have to ALWAYS factor in aura for an edgeguard. Lucario can mix you the **** up when recovering, since he can act out of up B and even jump out of it with an aura cancel.

Without aura its a really easy edgeguard unless there are walls with which Lucario can wallclimb.

I'd say Zard has the edge in neutral while Lucario has the edge in punish game from my experience. Lucario can get an edge in neutral if he can use aura sphere to force out options from Zard though. But dat type advantage Kappa.

This is my experience playing a Zard main quite a bit.

 

[Filosafer]

I totally agree with Zard struggling with lasers, but I think you're not concentrating on what you can do to prevent what makes Wolf so bad for Zard. First and foremost, CC jab beats any laser approach. It has as much hitstun but more lag than Falco's laser by far, which means that CCing the laser prevents an approach. Or jab to clang it if you don't want that damage, but that has a little more lag than CC. DI varies on the move, but to prevent shine to knee, you actually DI in. At low percents, Wolf can follow with whatever he wants, and DIing out is better, but at mid/kill percents from SideB, DIing in can actually prevent ALL followups. Edgeguarding is 2EZ against wolf. His ONLY way to sweetspot is a specific angle with upb. As a result, just use dtilt, and he shouldn't make it back. If he does, then step back a little and reset, as Wolf only has a few ways of approaching, and all are beaten by CC. In neutral, just treat it like Fox, where CCing late nair is amazing, and lasers are negligible(if CCed). Wolf is a spacy(spacie?) with low priority who's only options against CC are grab and multishine. Take advantage of the weaknesses. I know I'm simplifying a lot, but I hope it helps a little.

 

[Kycse]

You have to ALWAYS factor in aura for an edgeguard. Lucario can mix you the **** up when recovering, since he can act out of up B and even jump out of it with an aura cancel.

Without aura its a really easy edgeguard unless there are walls with which Lucario can wallclimb.

I'd say Zard has the edge in neutral while Lucario has the edge in punish game from my experience. Lucario can get an edge in neutral if he can use aura sphere to force out options from Zard though. But dat type advantage Kappa.

This is my experience playing a Zard main quite a bit.

I find Charizard has the edge in neutral against lucario, something zard rarely has. Aura spheres aren't really that great because they can be swatted away very safely and they can only be thrown while zard is far away. Also they're slow to come out.

Edge guarding Lucario even with Aura cancels aren't too tough either as charizard because we can cover a lot of space pretty efficiently and even go really far out. DownB is their greatest asset when recovering against zard and even that may not do it in certain scenarios.

 

[permafros7]

Well if Lucario had any neutral, he'd be broken af lol. I'm still trying to wrap my head around why Lucario is easier to edgeguard than Wolf though.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has Charizard winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:

-1:
-2:
-3:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

 

[JOE!]

I wouldn't put Peach and Samus as -2...

 

[Kneato]

I wouldn't put Peach and Samus as -2...

What would you put them as?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'd put Sonic as even here. A lot of people wrote Zard off as being free "because heavy" a while ago and were probably flat out wrong especially since Sonic's development was a lot lower back then. MU's still kinda hard on both ends and although I'd like to say Sonic has a small advantage, Zard is able to kill him really early and with the proper punish game I would be totally convinced it's even.

 

[Capt. NeckBeard]

How is the link vs zard match up?

 

[Kycse]

My most recent match up chart (after playing at Shots Fired 2)
Any thing surprising to you we can talk about, kneato?

 

[Kycse]

I'd put Sonic as even here. A lot of people wrote Zard off as being free "because heavy" a while ago and were probably flat out wrong especially since Sonic's development was a lot lower back then. MU's still kinda hard on both ends and although I'd like to say Sonic has a small advantage, Zard is able to kill him really early and with the proper punish game I would be totally convinced it's even.

I actually think its in Charizard's favor for mostly these reasons. He just can't gimp or kill Charizard early enough and we can really keep him out and kill/edgeguard him off of a touch.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I wish there was more footage of you vs Gooley so we could analyze it. There's no other region with both a high level Zard and Sonic as far as I know. I think that Sonic has the tools to edge guard Zard pretty well - down b's good for dragging him down because of the autolink, front hit of bair is good deep offstage when Zard can't respond to it, and spring is good before he's going to up B, which will beat it out.

I could probably even get behind Zard winning; I thought as much a year ago when the match up was brought up in the Sonic Matchup Discussion thread.

 

[JOE!]

My most recent match up chart (after playing at Shots Fired 2)
Any thing surprising to you we can talk about, kneato?

Would you say Good/Bad is 55/45, and terrible/favor is 60/40?

 

[Kycse]

Would you say Good/Bad is 55/45, and terrible/favor is 60/40?

Personally, I don't see much utility in the halfway points like 55-45, etc. I look at it as 6-4, 7-3, etc.

 

[buttermilkbiscuits]

In my scene there is a squirtle that i cant beat, any tips for the matchup?

 

[Mechaglacier]

I was wondering if anyone could teach me the Zard-mewtwo MU?

 

[Kycse]

I'm at work and on mobile so I'll just link my most recent set with Frozen. (Best Mewtwo imo)

https://youtu.be/BwtsoJuMw_I

Take note of M2's use of Dtilt and hover cancel up air. Space Rar short hop SS bairs and late Nair or full hop nairs until he starts respecting your range or blocks. When he does so start mixing in dair and grab to keep him guessing while using tricky movement as your main neutral tool.

Notice in game 3 when I was on my last stock I use movement to get important hits to get big punishes. mewtwo isn't that fast so use your speed as mush as you can. Figure out what your opponent wants to do and punish that as hard as possible.

 

[Mechaglacier]

I'm at work and on mobile so I'll just link my most recent set with Frozen. (Best Mewtwo imo)

https://youtu.be/BwtsoJuMw_I

Take note of M2's use of Dtilt and hover cancel up air. Space Rar short hop SS bairs and late Nair or full hop nairs until he starts respecting your range or blocks. When he does so start mixing in dair and grab to keep him guessing while using tricky movement as your main neutral tool.

Notice in game 3 when I was on my last stock I use movement to get important hits to get big punishes. mewtwo isn't that fast so use your speed as mush as you can. Figure out what your opponent wants to do and punish that as hard as possible.

well its been agreed among every mew2 main that frozen is the best