3.5 Marth Dicussion!

[Baeklays]

We are here to talk about Marth in 3.5.
Marth got nerfed is all, I say.

 

[MLGF]

Sigurd Marth is hot.
/topic.

 

[Baeklays]

Marth, my man.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

He feels much better to me in relation to the rest of the cast. The recovery nerf immensely helped his edgeguard game, which as we all know, is Marth's bread and butter.

 

[Baeklays]

Marth dash grab got decreased but ehh.
Roy got buffed.

 

[Shadic]

Reducing his grab range to Melee is barely a nerf, for what it's worth.

 

[Baeklays]

That's true.

 

[Baeklays]

I play Link as my main. I have a secondary Marth. He's great against spacies, Shiek and Falcon, which Link has some trouble with. I'll need to look more into his matchups though. He's pretty easy to pick up, too.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

He's pretty solid against nearly everyone except tethers and peach. Ivy is a tought MU, and Pit can also be a hassle. He struggles against opponents with top level projectiles.

 

[Baeklays]

true. Marth indeed.

 

[menotyou135]

Marth does not do well against shiek.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

I'd say Sheik is close to 50-50 now with her dthrow nerf. It's generally whoever's combo game is better, because both characters can combo the peanuts out of each other.

 

[Baeklays]

Roy or Marth, which one would you prefer?

I prefer Marth, because Roy lacks combo, and Roy's recovery is ehh.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Roy or Marth, which one would you prefer?

I prefer Marth, because Roy lacks combo, and Roy's recovery is ehh.

wat

wat?

wat.

And Roy's recovery really isn't that bad.

Half the reason I only rarely play Roy is because I find the constant "hoh, hoh, hoh, hoh" etc kind of annoying, true story.

 

[menotyou135]

Roy or Marth, which one would you prefer?

I prefer Marth, because Roy lacks combo, and Roy's recovery is ehh.

Roy lacks combos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDuv3J9JgmE

 

[Nyhte]

Roy lacks combos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDuv3J9JgmE

Also http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/b/595866253
9:00 / 9 minutes in

 

[Baeklays]

Roy lacks combo in my opinion.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

They're both very good, and two sides of the same coin. Marth is spacing, patience whereas Roy is more raw aggression, combos. But skill with one will carry. To compare to spaces, Marth is like fox and Roy is like falco in the sense that they're both glass cannons, among other things.

 

[Baeklays]

Roy against Marth?

Who would you think will win?
It depends, on how both the players are playing both of the characters. Like a real situation, like Azen .vs. Sethlon. Roy is a aggressive, and Sethlon was the normal person you is, Sethlon is good indeed. Azen > Ken?
Anyways, Marth is a spacing character like Sheik, and Roy you need spacing too, but I would say.

Marth and Roy.

Wavedash length: Marth's is longer.
Running speed: Marth is faster.
Taunt length: Not sure, but I think Marth's is faster?
Marth's sweetspot is at the very tip of his sword.
Roy's sweetspot is at the center of his sword.
Marth is stronger than Roy.
Marth is heavier than Roy.
Marth's ground A attack comes out faster continuously than Roy's.
Roy's special attacks are stronger.
Roy's throws are stronger, but Marth can chain throw better.
Roy falls faster than Marth.
Roy's up B is slower than Marth's and has multiple hits.
Marth's dair is a spike (not a meteor smash.)
Roy's dtilt sends the opponent up, while Marth's sends the opponent downwards.
Roy's Usmash has multiple hits and can "spike" if you hit with the tip of his sword.

A moves
--------
Neutral A
Marth: 6%
Roy: 5%

Tilt Forward
Marth: 13%
Roy: 10%

Tilt Up
Marth: 12%
Roy: 8%

Tilt Down
Marth: 10%
Roy: 10%

Neutral Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 11%

Forward Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 8%

Back Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 9%

Up Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 6%

Down Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 10%

Smash Forward
Marth: 20% uncharged, 27% charged
Roy: 20% uncharged, 27% charged

Smash Up
Marth: 18% uncharged, 24% charged
Roy: 16% uncharged, 22% charged

Smash Down
Marth: 16% uncharged, 21% charged
Roy: 21% uncharged, 28% charged

Who has stronger A moves?
Marth: 9
Roy: 1

B moves
--------
Neutral B
Marth: 7% uncharged, 28% charged
Roy: 6% uncharged, 50% charged

Forward B*
Marth: 4% 5% 10% 14%
Roy: 5% 6% 9% 11%

Up B
Marth: 13%
Roy: 13%

Down B
Marth: 7%
Roy: 1.5x attack countered

Who has stronger B moves?
Marth: 1
Roy: 2

Throws
-------
Forward Throw
Marth: 4%
Roy: 5%

Back Throw
Marth: 4%
Roy: 5%

Up Throw
Marth: 4%
Roy: 5%

Down Throw
Marth: 5%
Roy: 6%

Grab Attack
Marth: 3%
Roy: 3%

Who has stronger throws?
Marth: 0
Roy: 4

Who has stronger moves overall?
Marth: 10
Roy: 7

 

[Kaoak]

Roy against Marth?

Who would you think will win?
It depends, on how both the players are playing both of the characters. Like a real situation, like Azen .vs. Sethlon. Roy is a aggressive, and Sethlon was the normal person you is, Sethlon is good indeed. Azen > Ken?
Anyways, Marth is a spacing character like Sheik, and Roy you need spacing too, but I would say.

Marth and Roy.

Wavedash length: Marth's is longer.
Running speed: Marth is faster.
Taunt length: Not sure, but I think Marth's is faster?
Marth's sweetspot is at the very tip of his sword.
Roy's sweetspot is at the center of his sword.
Marth is stronger than Roy.
Marth is heavier than Roy.
Marth's ground A attack comes out faster continuously than Roy's.
Roy's special attacks are stronger.
Roy's throws are stronger, but Marth can chain throw better.
Roy falls faster than Marth.
Roy's up B is slower than Marth's and has multiple hits.
Marth's dair is a spike (not a meteor smash.)
Roy's dtilt sends the opponent up, while Marth's sends the opponent downwards.
Roy's Usmash has multiple hits and can "spike" if you hit with the tip of his sword.

A moves
--------
Neutral A
Marth: 6%
Roy: 5%

Tilt Forward
Marth: 13%
Roy: 10%

Tilt Up
Marth: 12%
Roy: 8%

Tilt Down
Marth: 10%
Roy: 10%

Neutral Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 11%

Forward Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 8%

Back Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 9%

Up Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 6%

Down Air
Marth: 13%
Roy: 10%

Smash Forward
Marth: 20% uncharged, 27% charged
Roy: 20% uncharged, 27% charged

Smash Up
Marth: 18% uncharged, 24% charged
Roy: 16% uncharged, 22% charged

Smash Down
Marth: 16% uncharged, 21% charged
Roy: 21% uncharged, 28% charged

Who has stronger A moves?
Marth: 9
Roy: 1

B moves
--------
Neutral B
Marth: 7% uncharged, 28% charged
Roy: 6% uncharged, 50% charged

Forward B*
Marth: 4% 5% 10% 14%
Roy: 5% 6% 9% 11%

Up B
Marth: 13%
Roy: 13%

Down B
Marth: 7%
Roy: 1.5x attack countered

Who has stronger B moves?
Marth: 1
Roy: 2

Throws
-------
Forward Throw
Marth: 4%
Roy: 5%

Back Throw
Marth: 4%
Roy: 5%

Up Throw
Marth: 4%
Roy: 5%

Down Throw
Marth: 5%
Roy: 6%

Grab Attack
Marth: 3%
Roy: 3%

Who has stronger throws?
Marth: 0
Roy: 4

Who has stronger moves overall?
Marth: 10
Roy: 7

Roy's dair is a spike in 3.5

 

[V]

I wish they would give his second hit of nair the amount of knockback it had in brawl. Then he could actually kill with an aerial.

 

[Retrolistic]

I really don't mind that his grab was nerfed, and honestly if you are going to complain about that, then that's just sad. Look at everyone elses nerfs besides jigglypuffs. Marth is still great. Still feels right to me!

 

[V]

Wasn't only his dash grab nerfed? I was just testing stuff in training mode and Marth's grab range seemed longer than Dedede's and DK's.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

dash grab range reduced, turn grab innermost hitbox removed, preventing grabs from behind, jab 2 active frames 4-9

 

[Baeklays]

Marth's nerfed is not that bad as I thought of it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

For all intents and purposes Marth basically wasn't touched. 99% of Marth's grab usage isn't affected by the changes and the change to jab2 doesn't really do anything of consequence.

Roy lacks combo in my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong.

Marth is generally held to beat Roy, but a long list of various attributes for each character doesn't really capture how or why.

I wish they would give his second hit of nair the amount of knockback it had in brawl. Then he could actually kill with an aerial.

His aerials are kill moves, what are you talking about?

 

[V]

@ InfinityCollision if his aerials were truly kill moves he wouldn't have issues killing until 150+% without an edgeguard. He needs something that hits hard like MK's nair.

Are there any dash attacks that can't be crouch cancelled?

 

[InfinityCollision]

@ InfinityCollision if his aerials were truly kill moves he wouldn't have issues killing until 150+% without an edgeguard.

Uh, what?

Either you just said Marth struggles to kill below 150% (what?), you just downplayed the fact that his aerials are kill moves (again, what?), or somehow both.

 

[Baeklays]

Marth can kill even at 70%.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Part of Marth's balance as a character is that he has a bit of a hard time killing once over 100% or so. It's a trade off for his ability to kill as low as 50% outright, and his extremely good edgeguard toolkit.

 

[V]

I said exactly that. Without a read with an fsmash or an edgeguard Marth struggles to kill until 150+% on a lot of the cast. Marth's brawl nair could kill as early as 100% tipped near the edge of the stage and it can't even come close to that in PM. If he had a kill move like that to bridge the gap between the 70%-150% range he'd be much more consistent in tournament. It gets tiring having to work twice as hard as your opponent every stock.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Except on half your stocks you work half as hard. If you're good enough, you'll rarely ever have your opponents get that high. PMBR balances these characters to pros, not you and I.

 

[Charby]

If you really want to master Marth you should stop complaining about his killing power or just switch to Fox. You can kill them at 150% with tippered u-tilt and side-b u-tilt launch them in the air and punish at landing with this racking some % it's not hard if you're not focused on killing them with tippered F-Smash.

 

[InfinityCollision]

fsmash or an edgeguard

See? By your own admission, his aerials are kill moves.

 

[V]

I was referring to dtilt mostly but edge guarding with an aerial =/= KOing with an aerial.

 

[InfinityCollision]

As long as they lose a stock there is zero functional difference. Stop being arbitrary and bad.

 

[V]

Losing a stock from the edge of the stage vs losing a stock from the center makes a big difference when Marth's combos stop getting people there and he has to resort to landing one hit at a time to take a stock. This is why Roy is a better character. If Marth actually had an aerial with KO power he wouldn't have a deadzone where nothing works.

 

[Charby]

Then go play Roy

 

[ObdurateMARio]

PM is already EZMODE enough will a lot of characters kill moves/recoveries. I like that Marth requires a player to not suck in order to be successful.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Losing a stock from the edge of the stage vs losing a stock from the center makes a big difference when Marth's combos stop getting people there and he has to resort to landing one hit at a time to take a stock. This is why Roy is a better character. If Marth actually had an aerial with KO power he wouldn't have a deadzone where nothing works.

This is why I hate the term "Marth percent". It makes people think that zone is a major weakness for him and places undue emphasis on his combo game.

Marth's early to mid percent combos serve primarily to facilitate his emphasis on positional advantage with an end goal of setting up an fsmash kill or edgeguard situation. At higher percents this is no longer necessary; everything has enough knockback that nearly any non-KO hit converts into positional advantage by either putting the opponent above him or near/off the ledge. One hit at a time or combo into kill move, if the opponent is unable to reset the situation then the end result is the same.